Talk:Big Ben

Name of tower more relevant than name of bell

Big Ben is far more commonly used to refer to the Tower than the bell, the fact that it is also used to refer to the bell can definitely be mentioned, however the name of the tower should be the first sentence not the name of the bell. The tower being Big Ben is more relevant than the Bell, especially since this is the page for the tower, not the bell. And such this name of the tower should be the first sentence. Dhtwiki Thank you for fixing the reference, but I kindly ask you to discuss with me the issue before reverting my edit. Just your average wikipedian (talk) 06:31, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

But BB isn't the name for the tower, although some might think it is. Your version of the start was very confusing, & I have reverted. You say "this is the page for the tower, not the bell" - clearly it's the page for both. Johnbod (talk) 13:59, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Agree with revert. Current description corrects misconception and then clarifies all in first sentence. Edit by Just your average wikipedian confused the description. The article is, as Johnbod says, about both the bell and tower and how the generic name 'Big Ben' has, over time, been used for both in common usage but isn't correct. Robynthehode (talk) 19:24, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Hi, Johnbod In fact Big Ben is not the official name of the tower OR the bell. with both names being unofficial what differentiates them is the prevalence of their use, and Big Ben is far more commonly used to refer to the tower. This is the page about the tower far more than anything else, with the main picture being the tower, and the vast majority of the content of the page being about the tower, the great bell only having a small subsection. I am very happy for you to reword my beginning sentence to be less confusing if you think it is such. My grievance only lies with the bell being the topic of the very first sentence, when really the first sentence should mention the tower, which the name Big Ben (which is a nickname in both cases) is almost always used to refer to. And the bell can definitely be mentioned in the following sentences. Hello Robynthehode, I don't believe there is any misconception, maybe if people called the tower "the great bell" then it would be. Just your average wikipedian (talk) 09:06, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

The misconception I referred to was that the tower is called 'Big Ben' but is, instead, the nickname for the great bell. So you have misunderstood my comment. You are incorrect to say the first sentence's topic is only the bell where in fact the bell is in the lead clause only and the clock and tower are clearly mentioned in the final clause. If an alternative where these two clauses were swapped was suggested I (after reviewing it) would possibly find that alternative acceptable. But the first sentence should refer to both the bell (the real Big Ben) and the tower (what Big Ben has come to refer to in many people's understanding). If I have time I might suggest an alternative but not at the moment. Robynthehode (talk) 19:19, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

There's no misconception; the tower is called Big Ben because that's what everyone calls it. Big Ben isn't the actual name of the bell either (Great Bell), so who cares? Those tiresome people who always try to sound clever by going "heh, well aCsHuAlLy the bell is called Big Ben!" are wrong too. Firebrace (talk) 19:44, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Firebrace, aren't you confusing "Great Bell" with "Great Clock" here? Any sources for "Great Bell"? Johnbod (talk) 04:14, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Robynthehode, I really must disagree with you saying, quote "the bell (the real Big Ben)" .Big Ben in the nickname for the bell, AND and nickname for the tower, there is no such thing as an official nickname, so really if you want to be pedantic there is no such thing as the real Big Ben. I would definitely be agreeing with you if the official name of the bell was Big Ben however it is not. In this case there really isn't a "well aCsHuAlLy" situation, as Firebrace has comically put it, because both names are nicknames. Since both the tower and the bell have big ben as a nickname then deciding on which is more relevant comes from other measures, Big Ben is far more commonly used for the tower. You could argue on the case that the bell had the nickname first, however the English language (and most languages really) is not stagnant, it changes, just because something was correct or not correct in common use in the past doesn't keep it that way for all eternity. Even the favorite word of this discussion "nickname" comes from misspelling "an ekename" as "a nekename" but we don't insist it should be "an ekename" because really the age of a word or phase has no jurisdiction on whether is should still be said in the modern day. If almost everyone calls a certain tower "Big Ben" then really the name of that tower is Big Ben, just like how if almost everyone says "nickname" then that is the correct word.

Here below is the beginning paragraph from my previous edit, it would be greatly appreciated if you could change the grammar to your liking to make the sentences more clear.

Big Ben is the name frequently used for clock tower at the north end of the Palace of Westminster in London, England. The name Big Ben originated as the nickname for the Great Bell of the striking clock but the name has now commonly been extended to the clock and clock tower. The official name of the tower was originally the Clock Tower, but it was renamed Elizabeth Tower in 2012, to mark the Diamond Jubilee of Elizabeth II. Just your average wikipedian (talk) 02:36, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

Rather than the bandying opinions - mine as well as other editors. I thought I'd briefly check sources - which we should be following. The UK government website here [1] states the tower's name as 'Elizabeth Tower', the clock as 'the Great Clock' and the main bell as 'Big Ben'. I couldn't find any reference where the name of either tower, clock or main bell was stated as being 'nicknamed' Big Ben. My point re 'a misconception' is that there is one from the point of view of social history. The same website shows that when cast the bell was called Big Ben, the tower was either the clock tower or St Stephen's tower and the clock was the Great Clock. Only over time has the tower, bell and clock become commonly termed as Big Ben and even now the tower is officially called 'Elizabeth Tower'. And no Firebrace not everyone calls the tower 'Big Ben' It is tiresome when someone tries to speak for everyone (you are also wrong that the great bell isn't called Big Ben when a contemporary source on the same website names it as 'Big Ben'). The name 'Big Ben' has commonly (but not exclusively) become the terminoloy used for the tower, the clock and (the origin of the term) the bell. So here's a suggestion based on my review of (some) sources and my rereading of Just your average wikipedian's text 'Big Ben is the name commonly used for the clock tower at the north end of the Palace of Westminster in London, England. The name Big Ben originated from the name of the Great Bell of the striking clock but in common usage has now been extended to the clock and clock tower. The official name of the tower was originally the Clock Tower, but it was renamed Elizabeth Tower in 2012, to mark the Diamond Jubilee of Elizabeth II Robynthehode (talk) 16:50, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

Again, any sources for "Great Bell"? The Whitechapel page in note 1 certainly doesn't provide one - only for "great bell", which the largest of any set would be called, or a large single one in the Buddhist style. Great Bell has redirected here since 2020, but I don't think it should - it doesn't make List of heaviest bells (maybe a disam page). This bit should be removed. Johnbod (talk) 04:25, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Chris McKay uses "Big Ben" and "Great Bell" (as a proper noun) interchangeably, e.g.:

"Another is the ball from the clapper that was installed inside Big Ben. No provision was ever made to swing the Great Bell or to pull the clapper, so the clapper was removed in 1956 when the bell hangings were refurbished."

—McKay, Chris (2010). Big Ben: the Great Clock and the Bells at the Palace of Westminster. p. 8

Other sources:

"In August 1856, the great bell was cast at Warner's Norton Foundry, where it acquired the nickname 'Big Ben' probably after Sir Benjamin Hall, the First Commissioner."

—Cannadine, David (2000). The Houses of Parliament: History, Art, Architecture. p. 132

"The first great bell, called familiarly "Big Ben," from Sir Benjamin Hall, the late First Commissioner of Works, was broken by its own hammer, while temporarily suspended in a timber framework at the foot of the Tower for experiments on its sound and quality. A second Great Bell has, however, been now cast from a design supplied by..."

—HM Government (1859). The New Palace of Westminster. pp. 18–19

Firebrace (talk) 18:45, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Ok, but I still don't think Great Bell should redirect here - it's hardly the common name & there are many others. I think I'll redirect it to the list, pending a better destination; if anyone wants to start a discussion (RedsFD), please do. Johnbod (talk) 14:51, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

@user: Robynthehode you wrote above at 6:50, 7 May "The UK government website here [2] states the tower's name as 'Elizabeth Tower', the clock as 'the Great Clock' and the main bell as 'Big Ben'. I couldn't find any reference where the name of either tower, clock or main bell was stated as being 'nicknamed' Big Ben." I looked at the same site (www.parliament.uk not gov.uk) and here is a quote from that site:

Big Ben undergoes the biggest conservation in its history Affectionately known around the world as Big Ben and shrouded in scaffolding since 2017, the Elizabeth Tower is being repaired from the gilt cross and orb at its tip, to the bottom of its 334-step staircase.
— ("Conservation of Elizabeth Tower and Big Ben". parliament.uk/about/living-heritage.)

— PBS (talk) 15:37, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Name change

This article has become confused. It was originally about the building, the Clock Tower, which later became the Elizabeth Tower. The name is formally the Elizabeth Tower, and these days it is referred to as that not Big Ben unless by tourists. We have just had this name and the distinction between the tower and the bell drummed into our skulls a thousand times during the Queen's funeral. Wikipedia should be factually correct at least and not a vehicle for perpetuating an error. I am aware of the WP naming conventions but that is trumped when there is actual documentary evidence of a name. I am not sure what the solution is, but I am currently feeling that there needs to be two separate articles; The Elizabeth Tower, and Big Ben, one about the building, the other about the bell with a "for the bell see Big Ben and a "for the bell tower see Elizabeth Tower" on the appropriate pages. I note that there was a non-consensus name change a while back from Elizabeth Tower (Big Ben) and that the corruption seems to stem from that. Ex nihil ^(talk) 16:00, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Was this article ever titled the "Clock Tower"? "Big Ben" is succinct, and I don't remember the more long-winded "Elizabeth Tower" being spoken of during the funeral. Certainly, BBC announcers do refer to "Big Ben" on occasion. The building itself serves little purpose other than being a perch for the clock and its chimes, and I don't see that a separate article for it is needed. Dhtwiki (talk) 19:18, 20 September 2022 (UTC) (edited 19:19, 20 September 2022 (UTC))

Why was Big Ben name after an English lord

Why was Big Ben name after an english lord 2603:8080:B00:32CB:2DB8:E92B:9D02:E828 (talk) 22:12, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

The bell *might have* been named after Benjamin Hall, 1st Baron Llanover; but since people aren't sure, there is probably no certainty as to why. Dhtwiki (talk) 23:35, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

The answer is in the article: The nickname was applied first to the Great Bell; it may have been named after Sir Benjamin Hall, who oversaw the installation of the Great Bell...  Dr Greg  talk  23:46, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

But the article doesn't even really answer "who" ("may have been named"), and definitely doesn't try to answer "why". Dhtwiki (talk) 01:06, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Big Ben is chiming

Big Ben chimes every hour, this article is out of date. Genalynestrada (talk) 20:48, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Elizabeth Tower

Big Ben Chimes Every Hour. 162.142.46.108 (talk) 20:53, 1 August 2023 (UTC)