Talk:Western culture

Wikipedia elevating Huntington's dated and lowly-regarded map

Why is Samuel Huntington's map being given such prominence by Wikipedia at the top of this page ? He's generally not well-regarded by international relations experts, either in his conclusions or in his methodology. Not only that, but his supposedly 'epochal' map is rooted in and dated by a very specific historical time and place. Writing almost thirty years ago, he saw the Yugoslavian war as being the barometer of allegiances in Europe, for instance. He probably expected that ex-communist South Eastern European countries would not join the EU, as they did. This is highly dated and very specifically of its time, and should not be at the top of the page.

Jeremiad469 (talk) 01:44, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

It also very clearly contradicts the first sentence of the section. I have removed it, just for the moment, pending any convincing refutation of these points, or particular reason to keep.

Jeremiad469 (talk) 01:53, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

The map of Huntington and his ideas on which it is based, although not politically correct from modern-day point of view, are not only one of the most cited political prognoses ever written by an international politics researcher, but also one of the most discussed. Jingiby (talk) 05:02, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

I don't mind the map. As the user above said, it may not be "politically correct" from a modern point of view, but it is heavily discussed and cited. And it's not like the map has been free of criticism (this has been discussed in other talk pages). Plus, I think the map accurately depicts just how complex and arbitrary the definition of the "Western world" can be.

Look at the Philippines. The country sticks like out like a sore thumb in contrast to their neighbours, and Samuel Huntington's map labels much of the country as being "Western". They're about 92% Christian (sources vary, but I found one which claimed that about 86% was Catholic and the other 6% were other Christian followings),[1], and they have a lot of European and later American influence due to colonization/occupation. Such as many in the Philippines having European surnames, English is one of the official languages, and they're seemingly one of the few Asian countries who primarily use the Month-Day-Year format as opposed to mainly using the Day-Month-Year or Year-Month-Day format found in many neighbouring countries. Presumably because of the United States. They seem pretty "Western" to me. Though there are other people who would argue otherwise. Just like people who would argue that Latin America should be part of the "Western world" as well and others who feel differently. Clear Looking Glass (talk) 04:45, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Huntington's ideas are back in 2022, thanks to Putin and NATO. Professor Thomas Meaney of the Humboldt University in Berlin, argues in the New York Times of March 11, 2022, there has been a turn to Huntington's ideas in response to the mobilization of the West against Russia's aggression in Ukraine, and the ambivalent position of large non-western nations which have largely refused to support those sanctions. He states: "Now talk of ‘the West’ is back, and its accompanying terms the ‘free world’ and ‘Western Civilization’ have been called up for duty." Meaney emphasizes that NATO has adopted the theme, especially as expressed by Biden. Russia has developed under Putin an oppositional civilizational understanding of Russia's place in the world, as has Turkey under Erdogan with its neo-Ottoman sphere, and the neo-Hindu emphasis of Modi in India. He states: "In the late 2000s there was also a turn to a civilizational understanding in Beijing, where dutiful readers of Mr Huntington have spread notions of Chinese civilization." See Thomas Meaney, “The Return of ‘The West’” New York Times March 11, 2022. Rjensen (talk) 16:31, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Latin American inclusion

There are at least 4 references stating that Latin America, and Mexico as an extension (which is a NORTH AMERICAN country), are part of the West and Western culture. Why are they being deleted? This isn’t about what you like or dislike, this is about FACTS. The references build on each other these facts 1) Mexico is in North America, 2) North America is part of the Western world, and according to Webster’s dictionary, “Noun 1. Western civilization - the modern culture of western Europe and North America.” 3) Mexico is in Latin America 4) Latin America’s literature is stated by the Encyclopedia Britannica to be a Western Literature and listed as such along with others, including “European literature” and “Scandinavian literature”, etc. 4) Latin America is indeed part of the Western world: redirected from Western World is the definition for ‘Occident’, which means “The countries of Europe and the Western Hemisphere”. ll CMD007 (talk) 01:54, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

I thought this debate had been settled a long time - just like it did on the Western world article. Latin America can be considered part of the Western world and culture, and it can also be considered closely related/intertwined yet distinct. Both views are valid. That's why the map in the Western world got so much support: because it translates this inclusivity and complexity well. Morgengave (talk) 06:03, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

I'd also add the Philippines as another example of being in a "unique position" as well. If I'm not mistaken, the map, (I assume you're talking about Samuel Huntington's map) mostly labels the Philippines as being "Western", though I'm sure you can make a case for them being Western or not. In a stark contrast to the other neighbouring countries they're overwhelmingly Christian at about 92% and you can see the influence from European colonization and later American colonization/occupation throughout the country. Such as many Filipinos possessing European surnames and English being one of the official languages there. But as I mentioned, there are other reasons one can make for them not being "Western". As the above user said, the map shows the complexity behind the meaning of the "Western world". I think its fine the way it is. Clear Looking Glass (talk) 04:57, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

User talk:Clear Looking Glass, The Philippines is not in the same position as Latin American countries, as most of its people are not racially/ethnically European-descended. It fits in more with places that have been European territories such as Equatorial Guinea. European names were given to Filipinos for tax reasons, while the overwhelming majority of Latin Americans bear surnames from their European ancestors. CMD007 (talk) 03:12, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

Actually, Latin America is culturally more related to Europe than the US has ever been, so it is weird to see the creators of the article talking about Football, music, cuisine and Catholicism and, at the same time, considering the US being part of it instead of Latin America. --†_JuanPa_† (talk) 20:13, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

References

"Latin civilisation" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Latin civilisation. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 October 10#Latin civilisation until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 16:03, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Dubious

I have issue with the terminology section. Not only can it be written better but the statements are questionable. I removed one of the sources because when I read it it was to an entire chapter being referenced about the Corpus Juris Civilis and nothing to do with the Byzantine empire being considered "not west" due to Iran and Arab influences, so I tagged it as a dubious claim. I also added a citation needed tag for an earlier part of the sentence on the claim that most scholars consider the Byzantine Empire not western. Apologies if I should have discussed here first but it's just so badly written that I feel the entire section needs a review. Elias (talk) 07:32, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Terminology

This article does not have information concerning the use of the term 'western civilization'.

There needs to be information on the widespread usage of the term western civilization that is understood separately form the concept of western civilization. For example, the article on Christendom states in its Terminology section 'The Anglo-Saxon term crīstendōm appears to have been invented in the 9th century by a scribe somewhere in southern England'.

If information is available there should be text explaining whether the ancient Romans and Greeks commonly used the term 'western civilization' in ancient times.

Was there gradual or intermittent usage of the term 'western civilization' or was this term absent during dark ages, middle ages and medieval times?

Does the term western civilization only originate as a modern analytical term and then became a common term in modern times?

Information on all of these matters should be sought. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.13.17.237 (talk) 10:21, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 13 March 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Colin M (talk) 16:11, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

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Western culture → Western civilization – More WP:PRECISE and WP:CONCISE. Probably the same applies for Eastern Culture, but there is already an open move request and I can not open a second one while the first isn't closed. Schleiz (talk) 15:11, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose. While often used interchangeably, the term "civilization" is not exactly value-free but has additional Non-neutral POV connotations (e.g. civilization vs. barbarism). Given that ambiguity, I'd opt to retain the article at the current title. Walrasiad (talk) 15:38, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose "Western civilization" evolved from Graeco-Roman roots, while "Western culture" evolved from Sumerian/Babylonian and Egyptian roots (see astrology, constellations, 360-degree circle, base-60 time, etc) This article covers in the lede, that base in Mesopotamia, the Mediterranean world. While "Western society" is what evolved in Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire, that gradually included the Christian Orthodox and Slavic world. -- 65.92.246.142 (talk) 21:43, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose per Walrasiad's comment. When I think of the word "civilisation", I think of people who mean to talk about "urbanised societies", albeit with additional connotations (think of urbanised "civilised" countries like the ones in Western Europe versus the supposedly "uncivilised" or non-urban societies present in most of the post-colonial world).

‍ ‍ elias. 🧣 ‍ ‍ ^{💬reach out to me}
_{📝see my work} 00:28, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Egypt?

No mention of Egypt’s contribution to Western civilization or Greece to begin with? What about Mesopotamia? India? Aztec? China? Christianity itself begun in Bronze Aged Palestine yet no mention of that? Nlivataye (talk) 16:55, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

The first thing it says under History is "The earliest civilizations which influenced the development of Western culture were those of Mesopotamia; the area of the Tigris–Euphrates river system, largely corresponding to modern-day Iraq, northeastern Syria, southeastern Turkey and southwestern Iran: the cradle of civilization. Ancient Egypt similarly had a strong influence on Western culture." So there you are. LastDodo (talk) 12:17, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

"Christianity itself begun in Bronze Aged Palestine" Where did you draw that conclusion? Per Time periods in the Palestine region, the Bronze Age in the region was over by 1000 BCE. Placing its end about 10 centuries before the birth of Paul the Apostle. Dimadick (talk) 14:22, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

Illustrations of Western architecture

I am not sure that the current illustrations of Western architecture are optimal. First, I think such illustrations should show widespread styles in Western countries, i.e., styles found in the majority of countries typically considered part of the West. These would be Romanesque art, Gothic art, Renaissance architecture, Baroque architecture and Classicism. Both the St. Basil's Cathedral and the Borgund Stave Church are styles too typical of their respective countries. The article is intended to demonstrate the commonalities between Western countries, not to point out features which are unique to individual countries. Second, I am not sure if Russia can even be considered a Western country, which would make the inclusion of St. Basil's Cathedral even more inappropriate. While there is no universally accepted list of countries that should be included, Russia is definitely not one of the core countries. This is evidenced both by the fact that the only map included in the article excludes Russia, and by the fact that most Russians do not see their country as part of the West. Regardless, I would suggest deleting these two examples and replacing them with examples from the styles above. Fhesse (talk) 20:28, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

History of S.1

Please can you send the exact meaning of the word Western culture 41.210.155.79 (talk) 16:19, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

"Western civilization" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Western civilization and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 September 28#Western civilization until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Privybst (talk) 13:35, 28 September 2022 (UTC)