Talk:Main Page

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Administrators: Clear all reports

Errors in the summary of the featured article

Please do not remove this invisible timestamp. See WT:ERRORS and WP:SUBSCRIBE. - Dank (push to talk) 01:24, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Today's FA

• I uploaded a cropped version of the image featured in the blurb, which looks better in my opinion. Does anybody know which page to purge to make that one display instead?--NØ 15:54, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

  Your cropped one is showing to me now, the one with little of the red at the bottom? Stephen 01:52, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Errors in the summary of the featured list

Friday's FL

(December 27)

Monday's FL

(December 30)

Errors in the summary of the featured picture

Notice to administrators: When fixing POTD errors, please update the corresponding regular version (i.e. without "protected" in the page title) in addition to the Main Page version linked below.

General discussion

Main Page January 2020 technical update

Tracked in Phabricator
Task T32405

Tracked in Phabricator
Task T138622

Hello, a technical design update incorporating responsive elements and template styles is proposed to be brought online for the Main Page. This may be previewed here: Wikipedia:Main page 2020.01 technical update, this incorporates styling found here: Wikipedia:Main page 2020.01 technical update/styles.css. The goal of this is to improve technical components, and allow for removing of hard coded back-end configurations for the mobile web view of the main page. Specifically, this update is not focusing on changing the actual content, or layout of content on the main page, or the mobile view. This update is also not changing any of the current editorial processes for adding or updating main page content. To see the diff of the technical code change, Special:Diff/938165663 has the low-level details. If enacted, a future discussion could be held to determine if any content updates would be useful for the mobile view. What is the next step? Testing and feedback! Please review the proposed page and test it with any method you would like, if you find bugs please let us know. As this is designed to be a technical change only, if your feedback is about content or content styling (such as what featured content should be on the page, or where it is on the page, or if you want some styling changed such as new color schemes), please start a separate discussion. Thank you! — xaosflux ^Talk 14:46, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

Pings to some contributors that were involved in this or similar efforts recently: @Izno, Jdlrobson, Yair rand, and MSGJ:. — xaosflux ^Talk 14:49, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

Xaosflux, looks okay to me (desktop, vector theme). I'm not seeing the "In other projects" section on the left side on your version, but I'm assuming that's because your test page doesn't exist on those projects and isn't a technical issue. ^creffpublic _{a creffett franchise} (talk to the boss) 14:59, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

@Creffett: Yes, no part of the change should impact anything in left sidebar, or special css that does things like hide the delete and move tab from admins at the top - this should only impact things in the main layout area. — xaosflux ^Talk 15:04, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

Good work, well done. Bazza (talk) 15:05, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

Looks fine to me, I couldn't spot any issues or desktop or mobile. Modest Genius ^talk 16:27, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

• A very minor point, but the new look is not completely identical to the old. The main page mobile view looks different when viewed in Google Chrome on a desktop with wide screen - compare the live version with the test version. Obviously this is not the primary way that mobile view is supposed to be used, it's really for a narrow screen, but noting it here anyway. Instead of a vertical layout, it's tiling horizontally, and including coloured boxes around the section headers - again, in wider screen view only.  — Amakuru (talk) 16:41, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

@Amakuru: try changing your screen width in those views, it should adjust if you are in a smaller viewport. — xaosflux ^Talk 16:46, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

@Xaosflux: yes, indeed it does change on a smaller viewport, and as long as you're aware of this then I'm sure it's no actually an issue. It's only that you said above that "layout of content on the main page" and the mobile view would not be changed yet this is a change, albeit a minor one that nobody will notice under normal usage scenarios - unless they're someone who loves reading the mobile view in a browser!  — Amakuru (talk) 17:26, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

@Amakuru: thank you for the note, I didn't mean to be misleading - forgot to explain that part (side by side vs stacked) at certain viewport sizes in mobile view - that is on purpose and may match what you see with a tablet on the current version. — xaosflux ^Talk 17:33, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

• Also, while we're on this topic, and if people are tinkering with the layout in this way, is there any chance we could add DYK, OTD, POTD and TFL to the mobile layout? I recall from a past conversation that those were removed some years ago without any explicit community consensus to do so. I personally find it very annoying and wrong that those sections, which editors are putting time and effort into each day, are not visible to a sizeable portion of our viewers. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 16:41, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

  @Amakuru: we are at a bit of a technical stick right now, as far as adding sections in - once this change, and the associated phab work, gets done - the community will have local control over what sections will be show in mobile - I think that is a good discussion to have, but should be broken out from this one. — xaosflux ^Talk 16:46, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

  @Xaosflux: thanks for the response, that makes sense.  —  Amakuru (talk) 17:26, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

This will be **a lot** easier after this change but is out of scope for now! Jdlrobson (talk) 00:05, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

  New bug  (Portal links at low res.)

• The portal links (Arts, Geography, ...) becomes a vertical list on screen sizes <1000px, and show up under the "Welcome to Wikipeda" banner rather than to its right. This looks very ugly. I'd be in favour of not showing the portal links at all, and centering the "Welcome to Wikipedia" banner, on <1000px screens. Other than this, the redesign looks very neat 👍. SD0001 (talk) 20:06, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

  @SD0001: let me get back to you on that one - needs improvement. — xaosflux ^Talk 20:15, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

  For comparison, my 2018 proposal shows the portal links quite differently on small screens (and also keeps the background coloring for the various sections). --Yair rand (talk) 21:16, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

  I think Yair rand's direction is the way to go for those, or perhaps with hlist (or similar) formatting. We can probably just include the specific rules needed in this case (no sublists gets rid of a lot of those classes in context). --Izno (talk) 21:30, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

  I'll take a look at Yair Rand's version of this today and see what I can do. Jdlrobson (talk) 00:05, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

  I started a change there that works to fix this on Timeless. Unfortunately Vector may need a little more massaging for its min-width since it is not as smart as Timeless. :) --Izno (talk) 00:28, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

• @Xaosflux: Love it, overall. 1: Do the <div>s without any attributes enclosing TFL and TFP have any function? 2: I've proposed accessibility markup in Wikipedia:Main page 2020.01 technical update/Accessibility (diff). Should be no visual changes. Matt Fitzpatrick (talk) 01:37, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

Thanks User:Matt Fitzpatrick those seem within the scope of this technical change. Thanks! I've made adjustments per User:SD0001 to mirror Yair rand's version. I urge against making too many more changes to the responsive mode as most users will not be seeing any of the changes here - only users who use Minerva or Timeless as a desktop skin on a mobile device are likely to benefit for the time being - and perfection is the enemy of progress. The more comfortable we get with making incremental changes, the more we can achieve and the quicker we can make progress. I'd love to ship this one and for us to switch focus onto redesigns and revealing further sections on the mobile site - which will be much easier with the new stylesheet! For example enabling "did you know" on mobile should be as easy as removing a single class with the new design in place. Jdlrobson (talk) 03:52, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

• In the web mainpage, the Featured articles heading is "From today's featured article". That is fine, because we have more than enough space there. In the current mobile mainpage, that heading is truncated to "Today's featured article" and so makes the text one-liner fittingly. This proposed change will alter that and serve "From today's featured article", this brought at least two problems, one big one small. The small one is, the "From" is clearly unnecessary in such place where space is scarce. The big one is, it makes the title to extend to two lines now and obviously creates unnecessary large white space to the right while pushing the article snippet down. Note that, even if you click mobile view on Wikipedia:Main page 2020.01 technical update it does not show how it will actually looks on mobile. In the real mobile or with the actual mainpage, above that Featured articles heading there's a welcome note (which has its own space issues too), thus making the headings to become three lines, that's almost one-quarter of some screens just for headings. That would clearly not be an improvement. So I'd advise that the Featured articles heading should be preserved as it's. The way it's on mobile is OK and does not need changing. – Ammarpad (talk) 04:40, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand you User:Ammarpad. Clicking mobile view is how it will display. I have verified this locally and read through the code multiple times. Per heading yes this will change on mobile and could be improved. I would prefer to change the heading on desktop but if that is too controversial I can provide an option which retains the status quo but at added inefficiency/maintenance burden. Jdlrobson (talk) 05:40, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

I think I said this clearly. But let me rephrase. On current mobile page, the Featured articles heading occupies single line. It says; "Today's Featured article". This new proposed change will alter that. It will rename that heading to "From today's Featured article" (unifying it with desktop text) and that will make the text to extend to two lines. If you add the welcome note, that means three big headings. But I note you just changed that after your comment. That's what I was saying. – Ammarpad (talk) 05:57, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

If you are referring to the "Welcome, username!" note that's logged in only and is not impacted by this change. Jdlrobson (talk) 05:42, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

I know it's logged in only, but I did not say it will be impacted. I only said Wikipedia:Main page 2020.01 technical update does not show (actual mainpage elements) because it omits the welcome note and that makes a difference worth noting. – Ammarpad (talk) 05:57, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

• Not sure if it slipped in with the recent tweaks, but "Today's Featured Article" should still be titled that, even if dropping the "From", not "Today's Featured Content". — xaosflux ^Talk 12:40, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

  I get it that there is less space on mobile view, but remember that "From" was added so the blurb wouldn't be mistaken for the entire Featured Article. Art LaPella (talk) 15:07, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

 Done but we are fine with that confusion on mobile? :) the new version retains the existing headings by hiding the text "from" on mobile when there is no space which is how the mobile heading has displayed since 2012 albeit it will now say article not content . It would be ideal if a three word heading could be agreed upon that displays the same on mobile and desktop but for now I think this is good enough. Jdlrobson (talk) 01:04, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

The mobile has always said 'article', as far as I can remember. So there's no more problem there. I don't want nitpick here also, @Jdlrobson: but since you're working on desktop minerva I have to say this. The "Today's featured article" is shown correctly on mobile minerva, but on desktop minerva, the "today" part starts with a small case and that apparently does not look good. – Ammarpad (talk) 06:31, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

{{{Done}}} Issue with Minerva desktop fixed. Jdlrobson (talk) 07:54, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

• When resizing the window on desktop view below 1000px the sections lose all their styling and default to h2 headings which look bad. Also, at exactly 1000px the portal text overlaps the logo; @media (min-width: 1000px) {} and @media screen and (max-width: 1000px) and (min-width: 850px) {} are used to apply styles and someone forgot the widths both inclusive.  Nixinova   T   C   05:53, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

Per portlet text overlapping logo: {{{Done}}}

Per media queries not sure what you mean. I think these were added specifically for Timeless in screen resolutions between 850px and 1000px. The medias query min-width applies for all resolutions above 1000px. For example at 1200px only the latter applies.

Per heading and section styling this is by design and aimed to mirror the mobile design that has been in place since 2012. On small screens I would argue contrast of background to foreground and touch size area are the most important factors. I think this is very subjective and needs some stronger arguments to why this is a problem compared to the status quo. Please consider the existing behaviour of the Main Page. On Vector at about 836px and below the page is already unusable and readable - portlet spills out the main container and only about 3 words per sentence display in boxes.

If this is really a sticking point for making these technical changes we could limit all these new changes to Minerva and Timeless skins for the first pass by adding body.skin-minerva and body.skin-timeless to all the CSS rules. As a MobileFrontend maintainer I plan to be much more ruthless with deprecating the existing mobile main page behaviour - which has been deprecated for several years now - so paying off this technical debt should be priority and trump any considerations around preferred layout on smaller resolution. Jdlrobson (talk) 07:54, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

I think I've fixed some of the issues. I'm bothered the whole main page does not display in Timeless at mobile resolutions but I'll tolerate it for now because I would rather us get this deployed. Then we can fuss about what displays on the main page on mobile or on responsive skins. --Izno (talk) 21:11, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

Since this likely going to lead to an RfC to add all sections to mobile, I created Wikipedia:Main page 2020.01 technical update (nomobile removed) mobile version. I see some issues in the "Wikipedia's sister projects" section. The mobile view on my laptop screen appears to force two columns when three columns are better. On minimizing my screen, I see the sister projects are forced into 1 column when two columns is better. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 17:19, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

@Coffeeandcrumbs: certainly worth talking about - and one we have editorial control of that layout again that is a very worthwhile discussion that should have a well advertised RfC. — xaosflux ^Talk 17:53, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

Xaosflux, I think a look at Template:Wikipedia's sister projects/styles.css is needed to address the issue I mentioned above. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 18:18, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

• Most of the concerns have been addressed, we are looking in to the off-wiki configs to ensure that the legacy mobile and main page special casing don't break anything, or if they would need to be coordinated with any update. If there are specific items that anyone still sees would make the tech update be worse then the existing configuration, please summarize below here. — xaosflux ^Talk 17:53, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

  Xaosflux, check out https://en.m.wikipedia.beta.wmflabs.org/wiki/Main_Page (below the gray box). I haven't copied across the sub-templates but that shouldn't matter - the containing elements are what it's important. Toggle to mobile view and you'll only see the two boxes that currently display. You can go ahead with the technical update when you are ready. No config changes necessary at this time. Jdlrobson (talk) 04:51, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

Just to add that the changes all look good to me, and I really appreciate the clear class naming. Removing the special casing of mobile is long overdue (phab:T32405 has been open since 2011!), thank you for the hard work on making it happen here. Hopefully this can be a jumping off point for future improvements to the main page. the wub "?!" 20:15, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

• Note: an attempt to move this live failed and has been reverted. A technical review will be scheduled. — xaosflux ^Talk 00:38, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

  Follow up at Wikipedia talk:Main page 2020.01 technical update. — xaosflux ^Talk 00:42, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

  Will try again tomorrow, preview version available here: Special:PermaLink/939044305, now that the CSS issue is fixed. — xaosflux ^Talk 03:19, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

Tech update has gone live

Please report any errors with the updated technical layout right here. The /Tomorrow and /Yesterday MP versions haven't been patched in yet, plan on doing them in a day if no issues. The backend tech config for legacymobile and specialcasingmainpage should be getting skipped for the main page now as well. Please don't adjust the "nomobile" declarations without serious discussion of how the mobile main page layout should be. — xaosflux ^Talk 00:06, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Will be rolling this back in about an hour, at least to have time to review the initial feedback. Please do take note of any issues, and if possible grab screen shots (you don't have to upload them just yet). Thank you! — xaosflux ^Talk 02:12, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Not sure that this is the correct place to raise this, but can't see anywhere else. WP:VPT says to discuss here (T:MP).

The main page has changed from a 2x2 layout to a 1x4 layout (again). It was tried before, not liked and consensus was against such a change. It needs to be changed back ASAP and a proper discussion (i.e. a RFC) held to gain consensus for such a change. Mjroots (talk) 06:13, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Non-Mobile minerva and responsive monobook issues

  New bug

@Xaosflux: currently, only TFA and ITN show on mobile (both minerva and responsive monobook). Removing TFP and OTD from all mobile users is problematic. --AntiCompositeNumber (talk) 00:25, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict)@Xaosflux: I'm only seeing the Today's Featured Article and In The News sections now - everything else including DYK, featured picture, on this day, and even the "Welcome to Wikipedia" banner have now vanished. I'm using responsive monobook on mobile. stwalkerster (talk) 00:27, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

@AntiCompositeNumber and Stwalkerster: thank you, that is likely going to be a roll-back condition - would like to keep running for a a couple of hours still to gather other feedback. — xaosflux ^Talk 00:32, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

N.B. the purposeful mobile view is meant to only show these. — xaosflux ^Talk 00:33, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

"Responsive Monobook" and "Minerva Neue" are purpose-built to provide the lightweight mobile experience. ((@Isarra: who may be able to comment more on R-Monobook). So this may be the correct result - but it shouldn't have been "unexpected". — xaosflux ^Talk 00:41, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Timeless also goes this way at mobile-size resolutions. This was one point I wanted to leave until the follow on discussion. Responsive Monobook, and Timeless, are probably not used by enough people to revert this change solely due to missing the rest of the content that desktop readers have been seeing for a long time. Jdlr below makes the correct point regarding Minerva specifically. --Izno (talk) 00:56, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Use of the .nomobile class to hide elements on mobile has been a convention we have been pushing for responsive and mobile skins for years ('we' being skins maintainers and devs in general). Not really sure what to say here, but that perhaps a rethink may be in order in terms of what all is being hid now, across MF and just general skins alike, that it's more... common for folks to be using mobile-friendly skins in the first place? Back when MF decided for itself, the community here didn't tend to really consider mobile at all, so it's likely it was a purely internal WMF discussion then, but things are very different these days. -— Isarra ༆ 17:01, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

this is not a bug for Minerva. Minerva on mobile has done this for almost 8 years and has been blocked doing anything about it without this technical change! As for responsive monobook I think having consistency with Minerva is more important right now. Revealing these additional sections is in the interest in both skins and now **finally** can happen. In the meantime please add .nomobile {display:block !important;} in your user styles Jdlrobson (talk) 00:48, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Probably better to advise would be .page-Main_Page .nomobile {display:block !important;} :) --Izno (talk) 00:56, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

OK, I can understand reducing the complexity of the page for mobile, but reducing complexity and reducing actual page content are two very different things. Can you point me to where the discussion to remove these sections from mobile was held please - I'm interested to know how much of a minority I'm in. I'm also curious if discussion happened, given I see specifically, this update is not focusing on changing the actual content, or layout of content on the main page, or the mobile view in the section above, which I admittedly have not fully read. Given that statement, perhaps it would be prudent to add the CSS mentioned to the sitewide responsive monobook CSS? While consistency is good, changing the good bit to be consistent with the bad bit is not the way around it should be. stwalkerster (talk) 01:00, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

@Stwalkerster: for what it's worth - these sections have been not showing on mobile for a very long time, the "new" issue (that may need more talking about right away) seems to be for the use case of non-mobile users that have purposefully elected to use a mobile-skin - I believe that is your current condition correct? — xaosflux ^Talk 01:04, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

This change (which while things are confusing is likely to be rolled back shortly at least to have time to further discuss) is necessary to let us opt-in to showing those sections to all mobile users (such as not-logged-in readers). — xaosflux ^Talk 01:06, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, I'll accept the Minerva issue as pre-existing (I don't use Minerva because I hate it... but that's irrelevant). I use Monobook because I'm old-school, and with that I use the Monobook responsive option on mobile. I'm happy that this is allowing Minerva to get these sections later, but previously Monobook responsive had these sections too and this is a regression from previous functionality. I don't see a reason, given a CSS fix apparently exists (I've not tried it yet) that we can't sort this for all Monobook responsive users, nor do I understand why this change has been rolled out now instead of rolling it out with the opt-in changes. If we're rolling this back then I'm fine with that, but I would prefer this gets solved one way or another before it goes live again. stwalkerster (talk) 01:13, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the additional information Stwalkerster I don't recommend you try a css hack. The bigger (better?) fix would be to make a change that enables more sections for "mobile" users (including desktop users that are using mobile skins). I don't want to cram too many changes at once - thus may at least roll back to have time to discuss. Hoping I can get a few other reports first tonight. — xaosflux ^Talk 02:05, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

I'm on IRC now if anyone wants to talk about this. FWIW the conversation to do this on mobile was made long before I joined Wikimedia and out of no other options. I don't really mind what Monobook does here - that's up to the community - if responsive Monobook not displaying these sections is a big problem for all users the solution is to put body.skin-monobook .nomobile { display: block; } inside Template:Main_Page/styles.css. Skin styles will accept such rules for skin specific CSS. If the display is just an issue for you - add that style to your skin style. I certainty don't think this warrants a roll back and user:Xaosflux I'd strongly recommend against doing so as this is easily fixable. Jdlrobson (talk) 01:48, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Note Minerva's desktop behaviour on a responsive screen is by design and I'm hoping to use this issue to bring motivation to fix the underlying problem. I'm maintainer of that skin and don't plan to fix this in the software itself. Jdlrobson (talk) 01:54, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

• Comment the desktop view on a mobile phone has changed significantly with this update. It no longer looks like the desktop main page, but more like the mobile version, with vertically tiled sections instead of the four panel layout. Presumably this is intentional, as it may give a better layout for readers, but for those of us maintaining the page and keeping track of overall layout issues this will be quite a limitation.  — Amakuru (talk) 09:18, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

  @Amakuru: do you think something like an editor-specific override preference would alleviate this type of concern? (Perhaps in gadgets as realistically administrators that edit main page components are a small subset of editors). — xaosflux ^Talk 12:17, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Next steps

Thank you for the initial reports, especially to @Stwalkerster, AntiCompositeNumber, CAPTAIN MEDUSA, and Izno: - additional mobile testing is still ongoing, so please bear with us on tweaks or rollbacks. A few points for next steps:

• There are some experience changes being shown for editors with fairly narrow desktop monitors (optimizations kick in the narrower it is)
• Editors that have enabled a mobile skin (minerva) will see the mobile experience
• We will be documenting these differences to make it clear what is expected and what is a bug
• We only expect minor layout changes for readers, similar to editors when using narrow skins optimizations to help avoid horizontal scrolling will kick in.
• A patch was just put on to aid r-monobook logged in editors
• We are holding off on a rollback for the moment, as the mobile code base testing is still occurring. - This will still likely be occurring in the next 24 hours. Please continue to let us know about any issues here.
• Once this is done, we certainly should have a discussion about which (even ALL) of the normal main page items should display for mobile users.
• Thank you! — xaosflux ^Talk 03:46, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
  • Note: WMF staffers may roll back Main Page to prior version once their ongoing software tests are done. — xaosflux ^Talk 03:50, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
    • @Xaosflux: Sorry if I've missed it somewhere but can I opt-out of this? I don't like the discrepancy between the mobile web view and the desktop view. If the mobile (non-desktop/web) view offered a different layout, I'm okay with that. --qedk (t 桜 c) 09:48, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
      • @QEDK: could you expand on this a bit? There has always been a major difference between the mobile web view and the desktop view for the main page, notably for readers most of the content sections don't appear in mobile web view (though we will be able to enable them once this is done, if we want to). — xaosflux ^Talk 11:54, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
        • @Xaosflux: Yes, I'm aware of that. I'm saying that that is the only behaviour that makes sense. I want my mobile web view to look like my desktop view. I'm asking if there's a way to opt-out of this trial (I hope this is a trial?) --qedk (t 桜 c) 11:58, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
        • @QEDK: the WMF staffers are still completing part of the back end tests, and this is still scheduled to be reverted today. Then it can be further reviewed. — xaosflux ^Talk 12:03, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

      Agreed, this is per my comment above. I thought the first step here was to make behind-the-scenes changes without affecting the look and feel, but this is quite a major change that I wasn't expecting. Note that even on an actual desktop, with a not unreasonable narrowed browser window (something that might be particularly noticeable on older machines with low resolutions), the view switches to the vertical layout. To be honest I think this is less good even with my reader hat on - I expect a desktop view to be a desktop view, on any website I visit on my phone. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 10:49, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

      Thanks for the note @Amakuru:, that is going to be something that will need some discussion for sure - the "desktop view" on a mobile device will be similar to the desktop view on a desktop with a narrow screen, if I understand you fully it is that you don't like having narrow-screen optimization at all, is that correct? If so, this is probably going to be a sticking point and either a width-responsive main page will be used, or it won't. — xaosflux ^Talk 12:03, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

      @Xaosflux: thanks for your reply. And yes, I think my concern does in the end boil down to issues with what you call "narrow-screen optimization". I feel like we've been misled a bit here, unintentionally I'm sure and in good faith of course, because the message last week clearly said that nothing would change appearancewise - it was just a technical update. Yet suddenly the UI/UX is quite different. I know Wikipedia is a notoriously hard place to make progress, and I don't want to just be an old stick-in-the-mud for the sake of it, but I do think changes beyond the cosmetic need serious discussion. The obvious point I would make is that, if someone expressly presses the "Desktop view" link at the bottom of the screen, something which I imagine is already a niche feature that most readers would not do, should we really be serving them something that isn't actually the real desktop view, but instead a sort of halfway house that isn't the mobile view, but still tries to optimise as if it's on a mobile? To answer your earlier question, if there is indeed strong consensus for this way forward and it ends up being the long-term decision beyond this mini-trial here, then I would certainly appreciate some sort of gadget for viewing the proper main page in full technicolour FHD+ resolution on my phone, both for admin experience and because that's the way I like it. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 16:12, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

      @Amakuru: thanks for the note, agree this needs discussion. The "focus" wasn't on that component - thus it got missed in the expectations. We are still rolling back today, just that the rollback has to be executed carefully because of the fragile nature of the mobilefront end config (under our legacy settings) and it has to be done server-side (we certainly could force the roll-back right now, but it could risk having no content displayed for mobile readers). WMF staffers are getting that part ready. — xaosflux ^Talk 16:54, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Pastel Update?

Finally those pastel colour headers have gone and we have a main page nearer what was proposed in like 2008. Ridiculous how long it took to change. It's very plain though, surely the graphics could be improved with some decent grey shading and bolder frame around the main Wikipedia box? Can you tweak it to a thicker frame?♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:31, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Which page are you referring to? I still have pastel-coloured headers, which I prefer. One person's grey shading and bolder frame are another's irritation and distraction. Bazza (talk) 11:55, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Ah, logging in on my desktop they're still there. My iPad earlier the pastel colours had gone and it was all organized horizontally even on the desktop setting. I think it's about time we updated the desktop version too.♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:11, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

@Dr. Blofeld and Bazza 7: see the section above, right now (until reverted for further review and discussion later today) a responsive narrow-screen optimization is kicking in. The pastel colors have not been removed from the standard view, but as the screen width becomes narrower elements such as borders are slimmed or removed to allow more content to show on a single page of your screen. — xaosflux ^Talk 12:14, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Ah I see. I don't dislike the main page with the pastel colours, it's OK, and as Bazza says it could look even worse. But for the main page of one of the world's leading websites in 2020 you'd expect it to have changed at least once in 15 years.. Given that there's a few options for different skins it would be good if there was the option for a few different main page designs, those who like things bolder and more graphically impressive and modern and those who prefer the minimalist look.. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:19, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

@Dr. Blofeld: keep in mind that most of the "leading website" type viewpoints are because of the readers, most of which aren't logged in and would have no notion of skins. We certainly could decide to change the default for readers (which is the logged out, vector skin view on desktop; logged out minerva skin on mobile). — xaosflux ^Talk 12:41, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

True, difficult to get consensus though. Personally I've always like the colour scheme and search bar on http://www.iranicaonline.org/ even if the format isn't the best, but I bet there's people who hate it! ♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:56, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Undiscussed change to display of the Main Page

The display of the main page has been changed from a 2x2 to a 1x4 format. This change is undiscussed and without consensus. It was tried once before and reverted as being without consensus. I posted above on this subject several hours ago, and have not had the courtesy of a reply. Therefore it seems to me that an RFC full discussion is appropriate.

The layout of the Main Page should be restored to a 2x2 format unless it can be shown that there is consensus for any other format - Discuss. Mjroots (talk) 12:16, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

@Mjroots: I'm sorry your note was missed for reply above, this is rolling back today to allow for a longer discussion. Please note, this is not a fixed 2x2 vs 1x4 layout, it is responsive based on your available screen width (which is certainly something you may have no control over!) — xaosflux ^Talk 12:20, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

I disabled the RfC tag above, so we don't have colliding RfC's (because this is already going to be reverted as the next step) - if you strongly disagree with this, reactivate. — xaosflux ^Talk 12:24, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

OK, I understand the disabling, have tweaked my OP to account for that. Maybe I should clarify, I'm talking about the display of the Main Page on laptops and PCs. I accept that mobile phones display in a 1x4 format and don't have an issue with that. What I object to is a change being re-introduced when said change has already been rejected by the community. Mjroots (talk) 12:27, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Thank you @Mjroots: I understand, and that is certainly something that needs more discussion - I missed that during some pre-tests because all of my desktop tests were done with a wide monitor on the desktop domain. This may be something where adjusting the responsive width point (perhaps 1025px) could be the best answer - but it will need to be talked about! — xaosflux ^Talk 12:38, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

@Mjroots: Is it possible that you've missed the discussion about most recent layout changes? The discussion seems pretty extensive. —⁠andrybak (talk) 12:42, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

@Andrybak: the one that says "Specifically, this update is not focusing on changing the actual content, or layout of content on the main page, or the mobile view."? I saw it but what has happened is not what was promised. Mjroots (talk) 13:00, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Yes, the focus wasn't on that (it wasn't the reason for the work) so it didn't get tested or advertised under the conditions it ended up presenting in, prior to this possibly becoming a permanent feature it will be. — xaosflux ^Talk 16:56, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Followup issues

Moved to Template_talk:Main_Page/styles.css#Mobile_monobook_padding

I found a 2px horizontal overflow on mobile monobook in Safari. This is due to padding on the TD cells applied by the user agent. ... —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 08:58, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

The testing is over and the change has been rolled back

Thank you everyone that has helped so far, and everyone that has provided feedback. A much more comprehensive set of change documentation is being put together now, and then will be open for discussion. Will try to ping everyone that commented above when that is ready. If you are having an issue right now, please purge your cache and reload the page - if a new problem persists after that please let us know here. Best regards, — xaosflux ^Talk 23:45, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Discussion about a new selection method for featured articles

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Today's featured article#the calais entry... um.... about whether future featured articles should be randomized on the Main Page which needs input by Main Page people. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 09:48, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

Is there good reason for cascade protecting Wikipedia:Main Page/Yesterday?

I am not sure why Wikipedia:Main Page/Yesterday is cascade protected. It seems excessive. It would be nice to edit OTD entries before we forget about them. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 23:27, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

This seems like at @Howcheng: question. --Jayron32 16:58, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

I dunno, it's been like that for as long as I can remember. —howcheng {chat} 17:00, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

It is rather frustrating. Sometimes an error is noticed and raised at ERRORS, but the item rolls off before an admin shows up to fix it. Non-admins then have to wait another 24 hours before they can fix the item, yet admins won't deal with it because it's no longer on the MP. It would be good if there's a way to close that loophole without compromising protection of the live MP. Modest Genius ^talk 17:29, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

Unprotected I'm reducing it to ECP (via IAR) and removing cascade - I don't see any direct threats to the actual main page here. Let this bake in for a week, then we can try to reduce EcP to SPP next. — xaosflux ^Talk 18:04, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

Any admin that finds a problem should feel free to reverse this at will. — xaosflux ^Talk 18:06, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

On second thought, I've returned it to Full Protection for the page, but have kept the cascading option off. The actual page layout code should maintain parity with the primary page code and shouldn't really be directly edited without good reason. — xaosflux ^Talk 21:01, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

Sizing of POTD templates in mobile view (iPhone)

This may have been alluded to above: for several days I am unable to size the POTD template pages without having to scroll horizontally. Jmar67 (talk) 00:45, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

@Jmar67: POTD doesn't normally show on mobile view, are you selecting "desktop view" from the bottom? — xaosflux ^Talk 00:47, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

I have always seen the POTD text in mobile view. Now I don't see the image itself, however. That is new. I do not use desktop view. Jmar67 (talk) 01:09, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

@Jmar67: thank you for the update, if possible would you please grab a screen shot of how it is right now. We have a main page update (see above) that may be at least temporarily rolled back again - and having a before/after from you would be good. — xaosflux ^Talk 01:12, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

How do I send you a screen shot? I can create the image but don't know the process after that. Jmar67 (talk) 01:16, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Have the "before" and will wait for the "after". Jmar67 (talk) 01:44, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

@Jmar67: I'll drop you an email you can reply to (if you don't mind divulging an email address to me only). — xaosflux ^Talk 02:07, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Is it possible you are using the Minerva or Timeless skin on the desktop domain on a mobile browser? It's impossible for POTD to display on the mobile web site. You can confirm whether you are on the desktop version of the site by the lack of the '.m.' in the address bar and a link to "Mobile view" in the footer. I've documented expected changes here: User_talk:Jdlrobson/Main_page_technical_change_roll_out with potential workarounds while we make these changes. Jdlrobson (talk) 05:47, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Sorry to all. I just realized that what I am referring to are the POTD templates linked from WP:ERRORS. I still have the problem. Jmar67 (talk) 12:22, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

The changes above should not had any impact on any page other than Main Page, but there certainly could be something else going on. — xaosflux ^Talk 16:57, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

@Jmar67: FWIW, the change to Main Page is done now, I don't expect it will impact your report but please check. Thank you, — xaosflux ^Talk 23:46, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Interestingly enough, the POTD template for 6 February has the problem but the one for 7 February is OK. May have something to do with the image. I do not see the image when I have the sizing problem. Jmar67 (talk) 04:03, 6 February 2020 (UTC)