Talk:Palestinians

Origin of Palestinians

I feel that the section on Palestinian origins in this article cites specific sources that prove its own politicized, psuedohistorical agenda. Though it notes, albeit briefly, that Palestinians originate from Muslim conquerors in the previously Greek Syria Palestina, it later attempts to prove that Palestinians are related to biblical entities and thus "were there already". I think that these quotes should be taken off. Palestinian history in the region goes back to 700 AD at most, and genetics does not mean history. --monochrome_monitor 23:00, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, what IS history? --YOMAL SIDOROFF-BIARMSKII (talk) 04:33, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Genetics prove that Palestinian history consists of acculturation to foreign invaders, not genocide followed by mass immigration from the Arabian peninsula. There is no evidence for that happening ever, meaning that yes, the Palestinians' ancestors were in fact there already. That's history.68.191.148.45 (talk) 14:24, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

ID editor it's true that many Palestinians belong to the Cohen lineage. I suppose that many Palestinians descend from Jews who were there, who eventually converted to Christianity and most later on converted to Islam, with some Arabian admixture. Guy355 (talk) 14:28, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

The section on history is severely truncated. Even though a great deal of the history of the Palestinian people is a result of the wars with Israel beginning in 1967, that information is virtually not even referred to, and that leaves the history section stopping in 1967, except for a few bare remarks about the Palestinian political organizations. Without referring to the conflicts, I don't see how this can give a proper representation of the history of this area and its people after that time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.130.173.78 (talk) 04:28, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Palestinian people wasn't the name of the group currently called by this name. Prior 1964 the Arabs living in what was "Mandetory Palestine" reffered to themselves as "ARABS" - eventhough they come from many tribes and different migrants' backgrounds, as their surnames suggest, the vast majority of them are Arabs who came from Saudi Arabia and Egypt - "Al Masri" (Arabic for: "The Egyptian") is the most common surname for "palestinians" living in the Land of Israel.--DXRD (talk) 20:31, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

The article could be improved by mentioning the very significant level of immigration to the area during the British mandate of Arabs from Syria, Lebanon, Egypt and Transjordan, who walked in across unpoliced land borders. Indeed, it needs to be mentioned that while the British were extremely zealous in attempting to stop Jewish immigration by sea, which we know could have prevented millions of Jews from dying in gas chambers, they scarcely paid any attention to Arab immigration by land. (The Arabs were attracted by the work opportunities the Jews were creating.) avi1500 00:25 15 October 2014 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Avi1500 (talk • contribs) 23:26, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Rubbish. pre-Mandate Palestine, 94% were Arabs. 657,000 Muslim Arabs, 81,000 Christian Arabs, and 59,000 Jews Under the Mandate the percentage rose to 33% Jewish. (2) Transhumance was a characteristic of the area, and that is not definable in terms of immigration.Nishidani (talk) 09:23, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

@Avi that's also true, I heard that Hanin Zoabi's ancestors came from modern day Iraq. Guy355 (talk) 05:33, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

@Nishidani perhaps many of them immigrated during the Ottoman era? Guy355 (talk) 09:27, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

It's a matter of percentages. A large part of the late Ottoman Jewish population immigrated after 1850/1882. From the time of Moses Maimonides (and earlier) the Jewish presence in Palestine was a few thousand. It was a Christian Arab country for 700 years, and then an Arab country with a vast Muslim majority till modern times. Joan Peters is not an RS.Nishidani (talk) 09:49, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I see... However I doubt Palestine/Judah would have been a predominantly Christian province from the time of Jesus or even from the time of the 2nd Jewish rebellion, while Jews were forbidden from living in Jerusalem after the second revolt in 135 was crushed, they still lived and were a majority in other parts of the west bank, including the Galilee, as far as late antiquity, one of the Talmuds, called the Palestinian or Jerusalemite Talmud was written during that time. With the advent of Christianity, I wouldn't be surprised if many Jews and Pagans gradually converted to Christianity, and with the Islamic conquest to Islam, as I've said many Palestinians today belong to the Cohen lineage. P.S I had no idea who was Joan Peters until you mentioned her. Guy355 (talk) 09:56, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I wasn't talking about Jews, I was asking if it's possible that there was Arab immigration to Palestine in the Ottoman period? The Ottomans considered most of what later became mandate Palestine part of the province of Syria. Guy355 (talk) 10:03, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Read Gideon Avni, The Byzantine-Islamic Transition in Palestine: An Archaeological Approach, just out from Oxford University Press. Nishidani (talk) 10:12, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Interesting. My mistake, I misunderstood you, I thought you meant that Christianity was dominant from the 1st century C.E to the rise of Islam, but in fact twas dominant from late antiquity as far as the crusades period. So it seems like the population has remained largely unchanged, with the only thing that changed was religion, gradually changing from the Islamic conquest. I'm not surprised by this, I wouldn't be surprised if modern Palestinians are predominantly of pre exile Jewish ancestry, hopefully archaeologists will be able to find pre exile Jewish remains fit to be fully analysed and compared with modern populations. Guy355 (talk) 10:19, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

'Jews' for antiquity is a very fluid notion, as are 'Greeks', 'Romans' etc.The Jews themselves were a vast meld of local Semitic and non-Semitic peoples (Israelites/Canaanits/Phonicians/Aramaens, Kenits, Hovites, Hittites etc.), as the Bible itself attests. Around the 5th cent. rules of blood descent began to fix ideological boundaries, just as a religious orthodoxy imposed new criteria (the Elephantine Jews had cults unrecognizable to our modern idea of Judaism etc.) Jews were broken into bitterly opposed sectarian groups, the Samaritans were not considered Jews, and their population was massive. All this is lost in retrospectiv classifications of 'Jews' = Judaism/blood lineag which is a late rabbinical consequence the failure of Jewish nationalism. Modern Palestinians are a mix like th ancint Jews, and both had priods of convrsions, Jews to Christianity (which was a Jewish sect), Jews and Christians to Islam. Nishidani (talk) 10:39, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, I suppose that's true. This map shows which populations are closest to Ashkenazi Jews according to IBD segments, the relations with Greeks and Basques are due to kinship while the relations with Ukrainians and Belarussians are due to a long period of cohabitation: https://verenich.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/ashkenaziibd1.png Guy355 (talk) 10:42, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Genetics cancls history. I know of 'Ashkenazi' for whom in 8 known generations there is only one Jewish presence in the genealogy (the second last). What does that mean about the resultant heirs' putative 'Middle Eastern origins'? Nothing. It's just a rhetorical game of excluding what an ethnic classification regards as trivial if substantial, in favour of the one minor element the politics of identity whimsically decides to prioritize. This whole area of definition is wracked by loose thinking and conceptual puerility. Nishidani (talk) 11:29, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

The thing is that genetics is science, and in many cases, especially these days, it and archaeology go hand in hand. Unfortunately it can also be hijacked by maniacs like members of Stormfront or ultra nationalists trying to prove bloody purity of the group that they belong to, such a thing though, is impossible, genetics has proved it, look at this study: http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1312/1312.6639.pdf Guy355 (talk) 11:32, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Incorrect Demographic Statement

"...roughly one half of the world's Palestinian population continues to reside in historic Palestine, the area encompassing the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and Israel.[24]" The article states Total Population c 11m - However, the list adds to 13m, which is it 11m or 13m? The list should state what the overlap of East Jerusalem residents are and attribute the number to a verifiable statistical source ? Further, Yasser Arafat, Fouad Twal, Samīħ al-Qāsim, Queen Rania, Rami George Khouri in the list of Palestinian People, but were born outside boundaries stated in the article. Why are they classified "Palestinian", by what attribution? Even though one or both parents may have been born in Palestine during the period of British rule, if the article is referring to "...the modern descendants of the peoples who have lived in Palestine over the centuries" - its basis is unreasonably broad because it could confer status to anyone who claims a distant relative regardless of a non-existent national status from the national entity "historical Palestine" prior to at least 1964? In other words, land on which people live does not infer national status. The nation to which people belong can infer status, but the Palestinian claim of nationhood did not exist until circa 1964, but not much earlier. The basis for aggregating this population seems to be arbitrary based on the definition of "people who have lived...". The article uses Wikipedia to infer nationhood to "people who have lived in Palestine", which is an incorrect attribution to the geographic term and is nationalistically and politically inspired.

Copytopic1 (talk) 01:10, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Of course it's nationalistically inspired. Palestinian nationality was a creation, as are all nationalities. Many considered themselves Arab, and before 1948 many actually considered themselves Syrian (as part of the Syrian nationalism that was developed in the period). It was only after the 1967 conquests that it became necessary to create a nationalism for themselves. This does not somehow deny legitimacy to the nationalism.108.131.85.155 (talk) 08:29, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Sophronius

Hi,

Somewhat surprisingly, I couldn't find an existing discussion about this, so I'll bring this up: Why is there an image of Sophronius of Jerusalem at the top of the article? As far as I can see, he lived over a thousand years ago, and has little to do with modern Palestinians, except living in the same land.

If it tries to imply that ancient Christians are ethnically Palestinian, it's OK, but why not take somebody more notable, like Saint George, or, well, Jesus? Sorry if seems like ad absurdum, but I honestly don't understand what does this particular person have to do with the article.

I don't even care that much about these image collages on top of ethnic group articles - the inclusion criteria for them are never clear and they frequently tend to be contentious. It's just that this seems like a real exaggeration to me. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 11:08, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

The article is about the Palestinian people, who have a heritage, like all people, and there is not such thing as a pure ethnos, in any case. We are not concerned with racial profiling here, but with people with a millennial culture and traditions associated with Palestine. This is done all over wiki articles on peoples. If one wants to be nitpicky, Sophronius might be challenged as being born in Damascus (Syro-Palestinian in one classification) not in the restricted area of Palestine proper. Of course Jesus could go in there, as could St George and many other early figures. But one group of editors strenuously object (go berserk) if contemporary terrorists (i.e. Palestinians) are associated with historical figures in the deep past. That is why we don't have Jesus, nor St George, though Christian tradition, which is underrepresented here due to nothing more than editorial animus, regards both as 'Palestinians' as over 100 academic sources testify.Nishidani (talk) 11:45, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

And... Sophronius is... not a historical figure in the deep past?

To alleviate any doubt - this is not animus, just honest wondering. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 18:32, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Sophronius didn't self-identify as of the Palestinian people and therefore shouldn't be included in the infobox. CSWP1 (talk) 03:47, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Not only that, but Palestinian people can no way refer to people before the age of Mandatory Palestine (before the emergence of Palestinian nationalism). Further more, self-identification of a Palestinian is not enough to be a Palestinian, because the most common definition of Palestinian is citizen of Palestine (Palestinian Authority or State of Palestine) or at least someone with a Palestinian refugee status. People like Raed Sallah and Juliano Mer Hamis, whether identifying as Palestinians or not, do not have Palestinian citizenship or refugee status, so can't be included.GreyShark (dibra) 12:07, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

It seems like you are being sarcastic, but I'll respond anyway. The page for Macedonian people does not include Alexander the Great. Modern Macedonians certainly identify with him, but there isn't a link between them strong enough to cite on Wikipedia. Similarly, Palestinian people often associate with Jesus and other figures born around the area of Palestine, but the link isn't strong enough to cite on Wikipedia. Sophronius was born in Damascus a millenia and a half ago. He lived and traveled throughout the Med and rose to the churchly rank of Patriach of Jerusalem, where he died. It is conjecture formed mostly on geography to call him a Palestinian person. CSWP1 (talk) 02:17, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

This article is about ethnic Palestinians, if someone wants to make another page for Citizens of Palestine, be my guest. Regarding ethnic Palestinians, Sophronius doesn't really qualify as he was an ethnic Syrian Arab. Saint George however does qualify as an ethnic Palestinian, his father was a Roman Cappadocian and his mother was ethnically Palestinian. Lazyfoxx (talk) 22:54, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

"Ethnic Palestinians"? it was just one of the names Europeans called the region, it wasn't a name for a specific people before the early, maybe mid-20th century. Just as there was no "Mesopotamian nation" or "Pennsylvanian people" etc. Yuvn86 (talk) 13:40, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

"An ethnic group or ethnicity is a socially-defined category of people who identify with each other based on common ancestral, social, cultural or national experience. Membership of an ethnic group tends to be defined by a shared cultural heritage, ancestry, origin myth, history, homeland, language and/or dialect and sometimes ideology, manifests itself through symbolic systems such as religion, mythology and ritual, cuisine, dressing style, physical appearance, etc."

Now tell me again how ancestral people of Palestine such as St. George do not qualify for being part of the Palestinian ethnic group? Lazyfoxx (talk) 00:26, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Because the modern Palestinian identity is heavily if not entirely based on a shared Arab identity, usually strongly associated with Islam too. St. George was a Palestinian in the sense that he came from Palestina, but he was far from Arabic, and he probably didn't share the ancestral, social, cultural, national, religious, mythological identity that most if not all modern Palestinians identify with. Same goes for ritual, cuisine and dressing style. As for physical appearance... No one really knows, though he was probably Mediterranean olive, the same can be said of anyone from Hebron to Granada. Guy355 (talk) 13:41, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

1. Ancestral: Genetic analysis suggests that a majority of the Muslims of Palestine, inclusive of Arab citizens of Israel, are descendants of Christians, Jews and other earlier inhabitants of the southern Levant whose core may reach back to prehistoric times.

2. Religious: St. George's mother was a Palestinian Christian, the same Palestinian Christianity is still alive and flourishing today in Palestinians.

3. Social: St. George is venerated as a Palestinian hero and icon socially, Why St. George is a Palestinian hero.

4. Physical Apppearence: This is more inclusive than guessing someone's skin tone as you did, St. George was no doubt similar looking to other Palestinians, and the Palestinian phenotype (physical appearence) did not drastically change in the last 1800 years. Reconstruction of a Palestinian face in the time of Jesus. Lazyfoxx (talk) 17:09, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

I think that you mix things here. Palestine was a name for a land, and that's not necessarily the same as a people/ethnicity/nation. Take my Mesopotamia example above, were the ancestors of current Iraqis belong to a "Mesopotamian nation"? And things get more complicated if you take into consideration that before Israel's independence, it was actually Jewish Zionists who were often called "Palestinians" (for example, Mandatory Palestine national football team was all Jewish, not Arab). Yuvn86 (talk) 17:30, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

I think you mix up things here, you are talking about modern Nationalism, I am talking about ethnicity. Lazyfoxx (talk) 17:32, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

That's what I meant. Not nation-states, but group identities. And someone like St. George didn't speak Arabic, wasn't Arab, and wasn't culturally Arabized either. So what exactly is the ethnic connection between him and someone like Arafat or Amin Al-Husseini? he doesn't really belong here, just like he doesn't belong in the Israelis article either. Yuvn86 (talk) 18:02, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

The fact that he didn't speak Arabic, wasn't "Arab", and wasn't culturally Arabized is irrelevant to him being ethnically Palestinian, as Arabization of Palestine happened after the Islamic conquest in the 7th century.

As I said before, he is ethnically Palestinian on these grounds,

1. Ancestral: Genetic analysis suggests that a majority of the Muslims of Palestine, inclusive of Arab citizens of Israel, are descendants of Christians, Jews and other earlier inhabitants of the southern Levant whose core may reach back to prehistoric times.

2. Religious: St. George's mother was a Palestinian Christian, the same Palestinian Christianity is still alive and flourishing today in Palestinians.

3. Social: St. George is venerated as a Palestinian hero and icon socially, Why St. George is a Palestinian hero.

4. Physical Apppearence: This is more inclusive than guessing someone's skin tone, St. George was no doubt similar looking to other Palestinians, and the Palestinian phenotype (physical appearence) did not drastically change in the last 1800 years.Reconstruction of a Palestinian face in the time of Jesus.

5. Linguistics: St. George spoke Greek and Aramaic, the latter being a heavy influence for the Palestinian dialect of Arabic today. The Greek and Aramaic languages are also preserved by modern Palestinian Christians.Lazyfoxx (talk) 18:16, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

It is nothing but an ideological hostility to deny Palestinians, and especially Christian Palestinians, who have a tradition of living continuously in that land longer than most of the present Israeli Jewish population, images of their cultural forebears. I think Sophonius can go out, but two or three Palestinians of antiquity should be added to stop this racist denialism and keep the article in harmony with the facts Nishidani (talk) 18:27, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

^ I agree wholeheartedly. Sophronius may be removed as per the reason I explained above, but denying the use of antiquated ethnic Palestinians is absurd in all regards.Lazyfoxx (talk) 18:40, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

It's not about denying anything, it's just the simple fact that there wasn't a Palestinian ethnic or group identity before sometime in the 20th century, so it's false to describe ancient figures as Palestinians. Have you ever heard of "ethnic Saharans"? wouldn't you laugh if someone will tell you that? And if we take someone like Jesus for example, he was a Jew born in Judea, not Palestinian-Arab born in the West Bank. This article is about the modern group and their identity, that's why he's not here and not in the Israelis article either. Yuvn86 (talk) 18:50, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Wrong again, stop trying to equate the Palestinian ethnic group to only the Arab Nationalism that arose in the 20th century. Lazyfoxx (talk) 18:54, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

So are we OK with taking out Sophronius? If the infobox is restricted to only people who self-identified as Palestinian, that would make our working definition (for the infobox, NOT the whole page) much easier. CSWP1 (talk) 03:50, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

The Sophronius image should be removed only if a compensating figure identified as 'Palestinian' in reliable sources replaces it. There are many of these, as I think, archives show. What is intolerable is the removal of Palestinian figures from the past to deny them traditional roots. Any one in the Christian history of Palestine, revered by that local tradition, can replace him, like Eusebius or Sozomen, or a saint. That is the sine qua non of any removal.Nishidani (talk) 10:46, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, self-identification is not the requirement for one to be part of an ethnic group as I explained above. Rashid Khalidi, a well known historian, explained that the modern Palestinian people now understand their identity as encompassing the heritage of all ages from biblical times up to the Ottoman period. As I said previously and I will continue to say, antiquated figures such as St. George fit the criteria for being part of the Palestinian ethnicity and I stated the criteria in my previous replies. Sophronius may be removed as he was ethnically Syrian from Damascus, and I haven't seen a source referencing him as Palestinian, if one is presented, we may discuss further. But any objection to known historical Palestinians such as St. George being included is absurd. Lazyfoxx (talk) 04:15, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Lazyfoxx, first of all, I think you should be commended and appreciated for putting the montage together, it is well done and adds beautifully to the article. I also think that changes should not be motivated by animus to either Palestinians or to the Palestinian sense of connection to the past. At the same time, the article itself defines Palestinians as "modern descendants of the peoples….," hence no pre-modern figure belongs to the "Palestinian people" (i.e., article title). Accordingly, if at some point, not necessarily now if you are feeling uncomfortable with this conversation per se, you decide to replace Sophronius with a modern person, that would be consistent with the article. Take care, HG | Talk 13:16, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

East Jerusalem

Why does the Israel figure, in the infobox, include Palestinian East Jerusalamites? Under international law, East Jerusalem is Occupied Palestinian Territory. This is a case of WP:VALID. False balance. It is Palestine, not Israel. Presenting the other view, that it is somehow "disputed" and to be "unbiased" we must present "both sides"—by categorizing Palestinians living in East Jerusalem as residents of Israel and the state of Palestine—is clearly undue, as virtually every international institution regards East Jerusalem as Palestine. JDiala (talk) 05:59, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

Most government recognize Ukrainian sovereignty over Crimea, it's still thought of as disputed because there's a clear difference between de facto and de jure control.108.131.85.155 (talk) 08:30, 9 January 2015 (UTC)