Template talk:Human rights

Footer

Does anyone think we should do a section just on the UN, then break down into other international, regional, and multilateral bodies? The UN is the gold standard on human rights. I'm thinking it might help. Thoughts? Phyesalis (talk) 05:17, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Split template or collapse subsections

This template is overwhelmingly large, it would probably be easier to use if split into several templates (e.g. Concepts & Philosophies; Organisations; Legal instruments; and Concepts that may be considered as human rights). Or at least make the major subsections individually collapsible (and start out collapsed, so can reveal as needed). Zodon (talk) 00:50, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Does it matter if the thing is always collapsed by default anyway? It's only large when opened... Tkn20 (talk) 16:43, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes it does matter, what good is something that is hard to use only when you try to use it? It is when it is expanded that it gets overwhelming. The purpose of navigational templates is to make it easy to get around, not cram in everything Wikipedia:Navigational_templates#Navigational templates provide navigation. This template has too much on it to be easily comprehended. Any one of the major sections is a bit on the large side for an easy to use navigational template, together it is just too much.

The examples on the navigational templates page show ways of making collapsible sections. I think splitting it into a few templates (as listed above) with collapsible sections would make it manageable. (Even with judicious editing there is probably just too much here for one template.) Zodon (talk) 08:59, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Abortion as a reproductive right

This seems very simple to me. Abortion is considered a reproductive right. We have it under the heading "Concepts that may be considered as human rights" so we aren't taking sides and list a number of other disputed so-called rights. I don't understand the reasoning for removing it, and it seems that conversations taking place elsewhere are trying to be used here. Please, let's discuss this matter here. If we want to make changes to this template, they need to be discussed here, not on other pages. Thanks.-Andrew c ^[talk] 02:58, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree that the discussion belongs here, so I am moving it. The following discussion occurred on Talk:Abortion#Wikiproject human rights, moving it here because so far it has centered on this template and has had very little to do with the content of the article on abortion. So this seems the appropriate place to have the discussion. Thank you. Zodon (talk) 04:24, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Moved from talk abortion

I have added this article to wikiproject human rights, and also added the human rights footer to the article. This follows the addition of reproductive rights to the main human rights article and some discussion on the topic on its talk page. I am not intending to say whether abortion is or is not a human right - just that it comes into the sphere of human rights discourse.Tkn20 (talk) 10:24, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

You shouldn't have too much disagreement with that. Nearly every person feels that either abortion is a human right everyone deserves, OR it is a violation of basic human rights. Either way, it fits the topic. -BaronGrackle (talk) 03:45, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

In the footer, this article is under "reproductive rights". This is a one-sided way of looking at the issue, wouldn't you say? --Pwnage8 (talk) 03:54, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

That's true, but there's also "Right to life" under Civil and Political rights, which addresses the other end of the debate. Next to it is "Right to die", which many people like me consider as abominable as the "right" to abortion. We don't have to agree with them, but enough people do agree that it should be somewhere on the list. -BaronGrackle (talk) 03:58, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I understand. However, the difference is that it's the article about Abortion, not an article about the movement to legalize abortion as a "reproductive right" that's included in the section. This puts a POV spin on the article. The examples you brought up are all about movements. --Pwnage8 (talk) 04:20, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Removal

I have removed the footer, and the article from it, due to the POV issues described above. --Pwnage8 (talk) 18:14, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't believe you have consensus for this change. It's not at all clear to me that describing abortion as a "reproductive rights" issue is inherently POV in any particular direction. Nandesuka (talk) 19:27, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

There was no consensus for the insertion in the first place. And yes, as I have stated above, including abortion as a "reproductive right" is pro-choice POV. A neutral way to go about this would be to insert the pro choice article into the footer instead of the main article, because only the pro choice movement believes it is a reproductive right. The main article is supposed to be neutral, which means it cannot support either POV. That's why including this article in the footer would violate NPOV. It's already biased towards a POV before the reader has even gotten to the page. --Pwnage8 (talk) 23:22, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

The same (erroneous) logic would support removing "right to life" from the footer as well, and would be an equally ridiculous assertion. Nandesuka (talk) 02:14, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

No, it couldn't be used to remove that, because the article is about the movement with that perspective on life, not life itself. Same thing here. If we want to present this neutrally, we should include the movement that considers abortion as a right, not abortion itself. --Pwnage8 (talk) 05:06, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

The Right to legal abortion has been on the reproductive rights page for a reasonable period of time (had at least tacit agreement there), so I think it is fair to say that its inclusion here was consistent with that consensus. Certainly the discussion above had no clear consensus for removal (if anything it seemed to lean towards retaining the link). I find the argument that it should link to the pro choice article a bit perplexing. I would have thought that the abortion article gave a more neutral coverage of the issue than that covering advocacy. The right to a legal abortion is unquestionably one of the rights often claimed as reproductive rights, so as long as the template has a detailed list of claimed rights, this one should certainly be included. As to what it should link to - I think the abortion article makes the most sense of the articles so far proposed. Zodon (talk) 04:52, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

In what way is the Right to life article about a movement? It appears to be about a legal principal or belief. Perhaps you are thinking of the article on Pro-life, which is not what the footer links to? Zodon (talk) 05:17, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

It can be both, really. There was a right to life movement around the time that the Terry Schaivo case gained widespread media attention. I really meant both movement and belief. I should've been more clear though. See, "pro-choice" is both a belief and movement. But if that's all you can come up with, then there's not much of an argument against my position. --Pwnage8 (talk) 05:30, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

How about suggesting some solutions? It would appear that you don't like the way the whole section is titled/conceived. Title says "Concepts that may be considered as human rights," and most of the items that do not have a specific "right of ...," or "freedom of ..." article link to the general concept involved, rather than to pro or con advocacy items. (e.g. Liberty, personal security, slavery, torture, exile, privacy, nationality, marriage, family, social security, property, intellectual property, culture, health care, female genital cutting, POW). So linking to abortion is consistent with these other entries. If abortion should be treated differently from the rest, why? If you are advocating general rewrite, please give more examples of better items to link to for all the rest of the items and better title for the section. Zodon (talk) 08:01, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

The difference is that abortion is hotly disputed on both sides, whereas the ones you brought up are generally considered rights by everyone, or at least the vast majority. Controversial topics like "right to life" need representation from both sides, and there is a "right to die" article in the footer as well. Notice how "right to life" is not linked as "life". So we can't side with only the pro-choice viewpoint on this matter by linking the main abortion article, but we can document what group/movement/belief/etc believes it to be a right. Right now pro-choice is the best fit, as far as I know. --Pwnage8 (talk) 18:34, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

A lot of people would not agree with that distinction. Many of these topics have been and still are hotly debated and fought over, with active advocacy on both sides. (e.g. Liberty, Torture, Privacy, Slavery, Marriage, Intellectual property, health care, female genital cutting, social security, come to mind as items about which there has been significant recent debate/activity on both sides, and I am sure folks more up on current world events could come up with more.)

Another matter that still hasn't been clearly addressed is why it is more neutral to link to one side of the debate on the topic than to the topic of debate. It is obvious how linking to the pro-choice article could be considered siding with the pro-choice viewpoint, but how is linking to the main abortion article siding with the pro-choice viewpoint? Zodon (talk) 10:37, 9 June 2008 (UTC)