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*<s>'''Oppose''' on principle on comprehensiveness issues because the article uses only websites/newspaper articles/interviews when a biography of the subject is listed in the Further Reading section. The biography should be consulted. I didn't read the article carefully, but I also noticed inconsistent date linking. Also, didn't his exwife try to regain custody of the children? That doesn't appear to be mentioned.</s> [[User:Karanacs|Karanacs]] ([[User talk:Karanacs|talk]]) 20:56, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
*<s>'''Oppose''' on principle on comprehensiveness issues because the article uses only websites/newspaper articles/interviews when a biography of the subject is listed in the Further Reading section. The biography should be consulted. I didn't read the article carefully, but I also noticed inconsistent date linking. Also, didn't his exwife try to regain custody of the children? That doesn't appear to be mentioned.</s> [[User:Karanacs|Karanacs]] ([[User talk:Karanacs|talk]]) 20:56, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
**'''DONE''' - went through seem to have got most wiki dates sorted. If you see any more inform me.
**'''DONE''' - went through seem to have got most wiki dates sorted. If you see any more inform me.
**'''The biograph is consulted!!! "The magic and the madness!!!!!"''' - please read more carefully when making comments like that.
**'''The biograph is consulted!!! "The magic and the madness!!!!!"''' - please read more carefully when making comments like that.{{unsigned|Realist2|21:24, April 16, 2008}}
**The article used, websites, newspapers, magazines, biographies, the lot. {{unsigned|Realist2}}
**The article used, websites, newspapers, magazines, biographies, the lot.{{unsigned|Realist2|21:26, April 16, 2008}}
***I missed it in the long line of references to it. The other part of my confusion is that a book that is used as a reference should not be in the Further Reading. Also, generally when referencing a book the page numbers should be included. I know that will be a pain in the neck to retrofit, but that makes it a lot easier for people to verify data later. [[User:Karanacs|Karanacs]] ([[User talk:Karanacs|talk]]) 21:32, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
***I missed it in the long line of references to it. The other part of my confusion is that a book that is used as a reference should not be in the Further Reading. Also, generally when referencing a book the page numbers should be included. I know that will be a pain in the neck to retrofit, but that makes it a lot easier for people to verify data later. [[User:Karanacs|Karanacs]] ([[User talk:Karanacs|talk]]) 21:32, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
****Ok will remove from further reading. Im about to solve the child custody issue with a BBC link.
****Ok will remove from further reading. Im about to solve the child custody issue with a BBC link.

Revision as of 06:08, 23 April 2008

Michael Jackson

previous FAC (03:17, 24 January 2008)
Check external links

I am the self nominater, ive made the improvements since the last FA and also had a Peer review. Im sure with a few minor things at your suggestion this article can become FA. My only concern is the finances section. I believe its too long but it was brought over in a merger. I didnt want to disrupt it out of respect for that merger but if you think it needs cutting down i will. Realist2 (talk) 20:28, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • I have made all improvements suggested by all involved, just waiting for further advise. It have been copy edited twice and references have been double checked for correct formatting. Dont know what else you want me to do? --Realist2 (talk) 17:13, 19 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Issues resolved. Karanacs (talk) 14:47, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose on principle on comprehensiveness issues because the article uses only websites/newspaper articles/interviews when a biography of the subject is listed in the Further Reading section. The biography should be consulted. I didn't read the article carefully, but I also noticed inconsistent date linking. Also, didn't his exwife try to regain custody of the children? That doesn't appear to be mentioned. Karanacs (talk) 20:56, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • DONE - went through seem to have got most wiki dates sorted. If you see any more inform me.
    • The biograph is consulted!!! "The magic and the madness!!!!!" - please read more carefully when making comments like that.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Realist2 (talk • contribs) 21:24, April 16, 2008 (UTC)
    • The article used, websites, newspapers, magazines, biographies, the lot.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Realist2 (talk • contribs) 21:26, April 16, 2008 (UTC)
      • I missed it in the long line of references to it. The other part of my confusion is that a book that is used as a reference should not be in the Further Reading. Also, generally when referencing a book the page numbers should be included. I know that will be a pain in the neck to retrofit, but that makes it a lot easier for people to verify data later. Karanacs (talk) 21:32, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • Ok will remove from further reading. Im about to solve the child custody issue with a BBC link.
  • Comment - still some info in the article needs to be verified/neutralized. For example, I'm having trouble verifying the claim that Jackson has donated US$300 million to charity. Also, is it necessary to quote Tom McGrath in the lead regarding Jackson making MTV popular? I'll try cleaning up the page in the next few days (or whatever the window for an FAC runs) to read better. --Andrewlp1991 (talk) 21:59, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • DONE- The 300 million claim can be seen as the last source of the charity section. This is the source.here.
    • As for the quote, the issue itself is very important to MJ's career, just need a little clarification on what you do/dont want?
      • Here's my main concerns regarding the charity and MTV quote parts. The "$300 million to charity" fact is so far supported only by the Sri Lankan newspaper, whose reliability I feel is a bit questionable. And do quotes really belong in the lead? I think paraphrasing would be better, or adding who exactly said the quote. I do recall there was a [copyvio] Youtube link to support the "300 million" announcement, but those are my concerns that still need to be filled. --Andrewlp1991 (talk) 04:14, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • Ok removed quote , i agree it was a no-no. I will find a second source for the 300 figure. Two sources together should be reasonable.
          • Im gonna add all the links i find on this 300 figure here.1
            • I did some reading, the source i have only puts it at several hundred million, it doesn't give specifics (not all work he does is public), im not happy leaving it that unspecific but its probably for the best to avoid controversy. If we could use youtube there are plenty of examples where he was awarded for 300 million at the world music awards. Either way, ill stick with several hundred to keep the peace.
Issues resolved, ЭLСОВВОLД talk 00:44, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose numerous criterion three concerns:
    • Image:Mjthriller.jpg: Why is "illustration of one of the most critically acclaimed videos of all time" necessary (WP:NFCC#3A) for us to understand Jackson? What significant contribution does the image make to our understanding of Jackson (NFCC#8)? How is prose inadequate to provide this understanding? (Caption verbiage of "revolutionary", by the way, seems peacocky; surly a more neutral adjective could be found.)
    • "Thiller" sound clip does not have have a fair use rationale (NFCC#10C and WP:RAT).
    • Image:MichaelAtTheWhiteHouse.png is pending deletion for lack of a source. Verifiable sources are required per WP:IUP; how can we confirm that this is indeed the work of the US federal government?
    • "The way you make me feel" sound clip is pending deletion for lack of a fair use rationale. Additionally, why is this second clip necessary? NFCC#3A requires minimal use of non-free media. What significant understanding of jackson, his style, composition, etc. does it provide above and beyond that already provided by the "Thriller" clip?
    • Image:Motown-25 Billie Jean.jpg, Image:Michael jackson in a car.jpg and Image:Michael Jackson-Democratic National Committee's A Night at the Apollo voter registration drive & fund-raiser.JPG (the first of which is pending deletion for lack of fair use rationale): What do these images tell us about Jackson, his style, his performance, etc. that a free image or prose could not? NFCC#1 effectively prohibits fair use images of living persons; free images of Michael as an adult both exist and can be obtained which would provided materially identical information/understanding.
    • Image:Michaeljanetscream.jpg: How does this image inform us that this is the "worlds most expensive music video"? Why is it necessary to "illustrat[e] ... the worlds most successful sibling act"? If an image of Janet is necessary for our understanding, a free image could be utilized. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 22:07, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Doesnt need to be there and i dont know how to resolve it so it must go. OK removed last stupid picture. Ive resolved your issue's to date. Is there anything else or do you now support. Cheers. Realist2 (talk) 22:39, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I added a FUR, as well. Patience. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 23:34, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ill be patient im sorry, i like these reviews ;-). I have resolved your issues so it would be nice if you would remove the outright oppose slogan as their is no longer any reasoning for it. Lol ive resolved everybodies issues but no1 wants to remove their oppose tags, DOH!! ;-) Realist2 (talk) 23:40, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I added the reasonable free and "free enough" images available at the Commons. I see you've already removed one, which is fine, but note that others commenting here may request more images. There's no harm in utilizing the free/free enough images, so it may be advantageous to seek out more. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 00:59, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I only removed it because a solo pic of janet wasnt needed, a picture of them together was ok but we dont have a suitable one. Realist2 (talk) 01:01, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just added another picture from Wikicommons. Should be on save side now. --Realist2 (talk) 09:33, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

Issues resolved, Ealdgyth - Talk 14:34, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Has any decision been made on UnitedWorld Chart's accuracy?
    • - Yes the chart is now accepted, that chart only miss's 7.5% or the market
    • I'm leaving this one out for others to decide for themselves. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:53, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    All other links checked out Ealdgyth - Talk 03:52, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]


    OK did did almost all of it, i just need a few things explained. Realist2 (talk) 07:34, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Just a question: you've marked DONE to a lot of the websites; but I still see unreliable websites like mjshouse, snopes, artistopia etc. What exactly has changed? indopug (talk) 17:42, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Hum the user marked it as resolved so he thinks everythings fine. Could you give me ref numbers and ill sort them ASAP. Realist2 (talk) 17:45, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    I just took another look, ref 140 is the only one I see that should go. You? Realist2 (talk) 17:51, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    I'm on the road, and I don't see any snopes or those listed as publishers. I do see that 140 is showing CBS as the publisher but the website is showing something different, which means it is not reliable. IF YOU MARK THINGS DONE, I AGF and don't feel like I should have to individually call up each and every link out of what... 140 or so, and double check that you have taken the reference out. Done does NOT mean you hid the publisher information, done means (to me) that you agreed that the site was not the best and you took it out and replaced it. Do I need to go back through every single link again? Or do all the given publishers match up with what is the actual publisher of the web site? Ealdgyth - Talk 18:03, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    The question of reliable sources as marked done (below) needs to be sorted. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:38, 20 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    I believe it is resolved, there were a few bad ones still remaining but they are long gone, would someone please clarify once and for all that they are 100% good. Realist2 ('Come Speak To Me') 20:45, 20 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Hum hang on i never altered nothing, im working my socks off, im not altering anything, it must have been someone else, im sorry. Ive looked through and i can see that 140 is not right, it is a easy mistake to make when you were up all night and morning correcting things. I will get that sorted and i would appreciate it if you can clarify what is / isn't reliable as im just following your orders. Can we all try to assume some good faith here. Cheers. Realist2 (talk) 18:11, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    OK i removed 140 as well as another 2 dubious transcripts. As for someone altering the publisher, i have no idea who did that, it wasnt me though. Realist2 (talk) 18:22, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Here we go, the editor changed the publisher but forgot to change the address. indopug (talk) 19:00, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    So for all the other sites marked DONE, does it you mean that you've removed those sources or fixed publisher info or you believe them to be reliable? I wonder if you could add an short explanation after every DONE tag so that its clearer for the rest of us. Thanks, indopug (talk) 19:06, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Oh ill get that sorted. Once that one that you mentioned above is resolved i believe that all unreliable sources have been removed and all sources are formatted correctly. Realist2 (talk) 19:21, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    OK thats sorted, i believe whole heartedly that the article is accurately sourced with all citations formatted well, i should has noticed that someone hadn't changed the URL last night but we were all tired and i dont know why the other one was labelled CNN when it clearly wasnt. It must have been sliden in yonks ago. I apologise for not noticing these errors sooner. Realist2 (talk) 19:43, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    • I put a vote in to support the decision to make the Jackson article a featured one. It is highly comprehensive and well-sourced, aside from a few errors that don't heavily distract the reader. Still, we can continue fixing the article, such as using Template:Harvard citation no brackets for some of the book citations on the article.--Andrewlp1991 (talk) 04:48, 20 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Wow, so to date, the issues of 4 editers have been resolved and it has 1 support. I think we can really do this, ive managed to get two further copy edits done on the article from some very nice editers. It definately passes on grammer, spelling, comprehensive, pictures, reliability, citation format. Realist2 ('Come Speak To Me') 04:55, 20 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • And incase there is any confusion yes i am the nominater, i just recenty changed the format of my signiture, sorry for any confusion. I look forward to further advise and support, yours. Realist2 ('Come Speak To Me') 05:03, 20 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • I also believe its neutral, 1/3 of the lead talks about his controversy and that extends to the main content of the article. I believe that stricks a healthy balance of good and bad. Its hard to add more negatives as those are tabloidy stories and hold little credibility. Realist2 ('Come Speak To Me') 05:22, 20 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I support this article becoming featured. It meets all of the criteria, even the elusive first one. It's a great article, and is definitely one of Wikipedia's best. I just want to add that I reviewed both the Thriller album and Thriller 25 for GAs, as well as doing a copyedit for this article and Thriller. So, I think I have a bit of knowledge on the subject matter, having done quite a bit of research. Cheers, Kodster (Willis) (Look what I can do) 18:54, 20 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support There has been a lot of change in this article since I first posted in this FAC. I'm a fan of Michael Jackson's music but not the person so I am hard to please. I would like to see this promoted.--DizFreak talk Contributions 19:31, 20 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Nominator Support - Ive waited for the right moment, when i originally put it up i knew it didnt quite reach FA standards, but a lot of people have given me advise over the last week, ive done everything i can possibly think of. Now I feel sure i can support my own nomination. Realist2 ('Come Speak To Me') 19:41, 20 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support Although on a break, I came back and saw this article, and I believe it meets all the criteria for an FA. The nominating editor seems to have put in a lot of work on this, as well as heeding the complaints of editors. Although Jackson is less popular than he once was, that should not hinder this article's FA nomination in any way.--andreasegde (talk) 20:01, 20 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Further Comments all of the above issues that were hidden have been taken care of. I double checked every page that it is listed with the correct site/etc. The following came up, but they are minor. I've left the issue of the charts out for others to decide.

    Issues resolved, Ealdgyth - Talk 14:34, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • current ref 12, History: 1970's, the publisher is given as SonyBMG. Are they the publisher of the official Michael Jackson site, because that's where the link is hosted. Other places you use Michael Jackson's official website as the publisher for pages on this site.
      • DONE - Changed to its new title of michaeljackson.com - it hasnt been called that in a long time.
    • http://www.gratisweb.com/sonybmg/index.htm (current ref 27) says that it is the "Official Sony BMG Argentina and Chile Site" but if so why does it say "www.gratisweb.com/sonybmg" instead of starting with a sonybmg address?
      • DONE
    • I believe current refs 32 and 77 are identical (History 2000s) and could be combined.
      • DONE - they actually were different but someone named them both 2000's accidently.
    that's it Ealdgyth - Talk 23:21, 20 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Great, so thats cleared up the sources are all good to go. Realist2 ('Come Speak To Me') 00:13, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    • To the nominator: please don't—by your own admission—put up a nomination you know is substandard; that is a violation of the instructions.
      • I knew it was close, i was just uncertain about certain areas was all.
    • Oppose—Certainly fails to meet the requirement of a professional standard of writing. Just the lead provides fertile fields for my editing exercises. The whole text needs serious attention, preferably by someone new to it. 11 glitches and two suggestions in just three paragraphs spells lots of work for a long article.
      • In the lead: "Jackson has dominated pop music since the late 1970s"—is this an overstatement? Does it pass the NPOV test? Would some people object? "Since" means "still"; "dominated" is pretty strong.
        • DONE
      • MOS breach: no hyphen after "-ly".
        • DONE
      • Suggestion only: you might save the "on the map" quote, which is informal, until the body of the article; in the lead, a more formal equivalent is more appropriate.
        • We have had lots of discussion on the exact wording on that, its seems a waste to take it out unless its urgent
      • "With" is a poor connector and usually—as here—leads to an ungrammatical clause: "with Jackson maintaining his position as a dominant staple on MTV". Semicolon and stand-alone statement?
        • DONE - and its sourced in the content of article incase you were woundering
      • "He has been cited as the "Most Successful Entertainer of All Time" by Guinness World Records"”—you can remove the quotes and the caps for a smoother read. A year would be good instead of just "has been".
        • DONE
      • "seven more Guinness world records"—ok, they were all after the most successful entertainer one, were they? "Other" is safer in any case.
        • DONE
      • "sold over"—it's a term used in financial houses; better "sold more than".
        • DONE
      • "in the eyes of some of the public"—I think you can dispense with that.
        • DONE
      • "been in decline"—turn it into one word.
        • DONE
      • "both negative media coverage and public attention"—how are they different?
        • Sometimes what the media talk about isnt the same as what the public talk about. In this case they both pay attention.
      • "This resulted in Jackson being tried"—clumsy and, strictly speaking, ungrammatical.
        • DONE
      • "went on hiatus"—Is that a standard expression?
        • DONE- Removed entirely, its a tabloid thing anyway, just because he never recorded music for two years, its nothing new to jackson to stay dormant for years at a time be that doeant mean he's been on hiatus 8 times lol
      • "one million six hundred thousand copies worldwide in nine weeks"—save us: "1.6 million copies worldwide in just nine weeks"?
        • DONE - I sure if you wanted me to add the "just".

    TONY (talk) 15:45, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    • I have resolved the visible list Tony1 has left and informed him personally, asking him to come back and make further comments when he is available.Realist2 ('Come Speak To Me') 04:11, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • You may well have addressed the examples I raised here, but this entirely misses the point. Did you read my entry? "The whole text needs serious attention, preferably by someone new to it. 11 glitches and two suggestions in just three paragraphs spells lots of work for a long article." Please let me know when you've had the whole article thoroughly worked on; it's quite a task. TONY (talk) 13:21, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support - Well, written. Deserves nothing less than FA. Indianescence (talk) 12:26, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Oppose. I finally had a chance to read the article all the way through. I echo Tony's concern that the article needs a thorough copyedit from an uninvolved party. I also think the organization needs to be rethought, and I found several areas where the article seems to contradict itself. Following is a list of suggestions (these are primarily examples; I did not identify every single problem in the article).

    • There is an overlinking of basic words, such as controversial, egninmatic, revolutionary, etc. Please go through the whole article and remove wikilinks from regular words.
      • DONE- Only wiki linked in lead
    • This sentence seems a bit out of place in the lead: " 2006 Jackson went to London where he collected eight Guinness World Records, which included, Most Successful Entertainer of All Time and best-selling album ever, for Thriller" Rather than focus on the trip "in 2006 he went to London", the lead should just mention that he has earned 8 Guinness World Records.
      • DONE
    • 750 should be numerals and not written out; this is also the case for other large numbers that are written out throughout the article
      • DONE - worst offenders altered
    • There are several instances in the lead where he is referred to as "Michael Jackson" instead of just Jackson. This is warranted in the sentence just after the mentionof the "Jackson Family", but not in other places in the lead.
      • DONE
    • If Rolling Stone was already talking about him when he was 7, then why does it say his professional debut was when he was 11?
      • DONE
    • The first paragraph of the early life section says that he joined his brothers in the Jackson 5; the next paragraph says he was already a member when the group changed its name. The article should be consistent!
      • DONE
    • Why is the Motown president's name in parantheses?
      • DONE
    • "agreed to produce Jackson's first solo album in four years" - does this mean he would produce the album 4 years later or that Jackson had not released a solo album in 4 years?
      • DONE
    • Mix of written out numbers and numerals in a sentence is usually discouraged (example only: "forty-eight weeks on the top twenty and went 7x platinum")
      • Disagree, numbers can be written as either words or numeric however when talking about certifications its always written in figures.
    • Need a citation for this "Despite its commercial success, Jackson felt the album should have made a much bigger impact and was determined to exceed expectations with his next release."
      • DONE
    • This sentence does not provide context. Does this have anything to do with Thriller? "In November 1982, the storybook for E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial was released and included the Jackson song, "Someone in the Dark"
      • DONE
    • The prose needs a thorough copyedit. These are examples of the problems I see:
      • redundant phrasing suc as "he later took a more pivotal role within a year"
        • DONE
      • Repetitive phrasing ("Jackson released...These were released..)
        • DONE
      • Some sentences/phrases have an improper tone (more magazine-y than encyclopedic) such as "hit stardom"
        • DONE
      • overly long sentences (ex: They changed their name to "The Jacksons", featuring youngest brother Randy in Jermaine's place, and continued their successful career, touring internationally and releasing six more albums between 1976 and 1984, with Jermaine eventually re-joining in 1983, making them a sextet)
        • DONE
      • There are misplaced commas throughout the article
        • DONE - article has altered a lot, shouldnt be such an issue
      • The paragraph in the Thriller section that begins "Jackson was rarely referred to as a "black singer" and his success was unusual for a black artist in the 1980s" has several different thoughts in it, and it does not transition well from one thought to the next
        • DONE - reordered and took some stuff out
      • The first paragraph of the Bad section has no transitions whatsoever. When did this take place? Does this have anything to do with the album?
        • DONE - moved to another section, wasnt relevant there
      • The second paragraph of the section Dangerous (beginning "The biggest hit single in the United States from the album was "Black or White"") has an apparent contradiction. It mentions that the video was premiered on Fox, MTV, and BET, then two sentences later goes on to talk aboua different pemiere (I think)
        • DONE - dont know what occurred there lol
    • The part about Jackson performing "Remember the Time" seems like a bit of trivia that doesn't belong in an encyclopedia article.
      • Disagree, its one of his most notible performances
    • The organization of the article seems off to me. The first part discusses primarily his albums, with a few bits here and there thrown in about his personal life (some of which references information that we haven't gotten from the article yet). Generally, a biography starts first with information about a person's life, then discusses their artistic works. This article is organized the opposite way, which is jarring.
      • Disagree, as his personal life is vastly negative it would pay to much attention to that aspect.
    • Is there a source for "In France, Thriller 25 received a 2x Gold certification, and in Poland it was certified platinum."
      • DONE
    • I think the article should explicitly list the names of all of his siblings together.
      • DONE - all brothers, sisters non important with exception of Janet, who is mentioned further down
    • There are issues in the article with clauses that are not complete sentences
      • DONE - wow that was a hard long one

    Karanacs (talk) 17:15, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    I believe ive resolved your concerns, with the exception of a few ideas you suggested that i oppose. Ive made 85 edits to improve it so hopefully you will agree its helped. Realist2 ('Come Speak To Me') 02:32, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    • Oppose, 1a, 1b, 1c, and 1d. I concur with Tony and Karanacs, who provided myriad examples of the work required. (1a) The article is "good", but the prose is much too unpolished for FA standard. There is some quite sensational language. (1b) The article is not comprehensive; it lacks useful information about Jackson's musicianship, songwriting style, and other abilities, and relies on pop media quotes about his performances. (1c) There are statements that are eventually and apparently sourced to the Taraborrelli book but much more accurate citations are needed. There are many statements that are sourced to dubious works when I'm sure more reliable works are available. (1d) The article has a pro-Jackson POV and lacks thorough criticism of his work and personal life. Examples:
      • Completely disagree, article pays a LOT of attention to his private life, too much infact.
      • The lead speaks of "physically-complicated dance techniques" which is actually a pretty wild claim to someone who knows something about dance. I scrolled down to the next time you talk about the moonwalk and you have a paragraph in which you assert that people viewed Jackson as one of the greatest dancers of all time. That statement is not sourced - the next citation is two sentences later. Are we to assume that citation covers the sentences leading up to it? If so, does it cover calling Jackson's dancing "physically complicated"? Where are the sources in which people call his dancing ludicrous, silly, vulgar, etc. as I'm sure there are many? This issue alone demonstrates the neutrality and verifiability issues.
        • Oh please, silly, vulgar... im not going to even comment, absurd and The whole section is sourced by the following source. Do i need to write it out again REALLY?
          • I'm afraid you might have missed my genuine point: There are those who criticize and may not appreciate Jackson's dancing as you do. These sources need to be included for a neutral presentation. --Laser brain (talk) 05:37, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
            • Im not going to discuss in the article that 1.5% of the population find his dancing silly and vulgar, its pathetic.
      • There is some excessive wikilinking going on to unrelated topics and even disambig pages or simple definitions - please check throughout. Examples from the lead are "controversial" and "enigmatic" (which links to a disambig page).
      • MoS breach in the lead: space between period and footnote.
        • DONE
      • Sensationalism in the lead: How was his use of music videos "revolutionary" (and why is that wikilinked)? This and other statements are sourced to All Music Guide, which is not a very reliable source considering all you have to choose from for someone as prominent as Jackson.
        • All music guide, not reliable, oh boy.
      • Ditto the myriad statements sourced to Fox News. That biography doesn't even have an author listed, which means they probably lifted it from somewhere else. Please pick a better, more reliable source. You should be able to source almost anything about Jackson to media that actually has a reputation for fact-checking and journalistic integrity.
      • More MoS: the "See also" under the Influence heading isn't indented.
      • The meat of the article seems to be about his music, and that's fine considering he is a musician by profession and legacy. However, you pretty much gloss over a lot of the bizarre aspects of his life and considerable criticism that has been leveled at him. Take for example the Influence section. It is, like many other sections, a laundry list of awards and sensational terms, but it is lacking balance. There must be sources that say he is a negative influence on the music business or on individual artists?
        • Gloss over, over a third of the article is on his negative public life, how much more do you need?Im not sure how he had a negative effect on industry, never heard that one.
      • Time Magazine "noted his notable style"? Prose.
        • DONE
      • The Style and performance heading seems strangely lacking any comprehensive information. You have two sentences and a pop media quote followed by an overly-long account of one performance. Compare some other FA-quality articles on musicians. They include text about musicianship, techniques (not just dance moves), studio use, production, and so on.
      • The Physical appearance section lacks any reliable criticism, really. You cover tabloid speculation and Jackson's own statements (which are not reliable). I know I have read actual, published information from experts, some of whom worked on Jackson, about what he has actually done to himself.
        • Why be critical or a personal choice to have surgery, thats not encyclopedic at all. What are we ment to say?
      • The Finances section is also woefully lacking - you need to cover the financial practices that got him in trouble to begin with. He is known in many circles for having purchased part of The Beatles' catalog - where is that info?
    Good start, but a long way to go. --Laser brain (talk) 05:04, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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