Talk:Stuart Sutcliffe

Hofner President?

IMDB trivia cites Sutcliffe's Hofner President as apocryphal(http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0106339/trivia). Gaberlunzie

What is your point? The article you refer to says "In the film, Stephen Dorff as Sutcliffe played a Hofner President Bass with chrome humbucker pick-ups. In real life, Stuart Sutcliffe played one with wood single coil pick-ups." So he had single coil pick ups, not chrome humbucker ones? Is this important? Paul B 12:32, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Moptop hairstyle

Sutcliffe was not the first member of The Beatles to have this haircut, it was John and Paul. Jurgen Volmer states in The Beatles Off The Record by Keith Badman: "I was combing my hair forward as an act against the bourgeois horrors in Hamburg. The barbers there always cut it too short, so I cut my own hair, but I never did anyone else's. So when John and Paul came to Paris I gave them this haircut. It was their idea to to have it the same as mine". Sutcliffe copied John and Paul. Vera, Chuck & Dave 17:25, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

"Sometimes refered to as Fifth Beatle"?

He Was the fifth Beatle, no sometimes about it! Vera, Chuck & Dave 20:34, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Several other people have also been called that. See Fifth Beatle. Paul B 23:07, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I understand what your'e saying Paul, but this fifth Beatle nonsense is exactly that: media nonsense. There was only one fifth Beatle, and his name was Stu Sutcliffe. Cheers, Vera, Chuck & Dave 15:20, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't alter the fact that he is sometimes referred to by that label, and that other people are also sometimes so-called. We can't just insist that one usage is right and the others wrong. Paul B 15:26, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes we can, when one usage IS right and the others ARE wrong, as is the case here. Vidor 06:09, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

They aren't wrong, because the word is not used with the literal meaning of "fifth member of the on-stage performers", they are just uses of the label to imply an extra people who contributed to the group. If it were being used literally, it wouldn't even be true, since Sutcliffe was not the "fifth" person to join the group. He became a member before Pete Best, and obviously before Ringo, yet no one refers to Ringo as the "sixth Beatle" do they? Paul B 13:49, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Uhh.. listen to this: Sutcliffe was actually the THIRD Beatle, because he created the name with Lennon and Harrison hadn't joined yet. So here it goes: 1st/Lennon, 2nd/McCartney, 3rd/Sutcliffe 4th/Harrison, 5th/Best, 6th/Starr, 7th/Preston. This is based on historical accuracy and my own biased POV. If dissatisfied please feel free to slap me to death with a wet fish... :) andreasegde 03:34, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

sexuality

Weren;t ther rumours that he and John had sex together in the early sixties/late fifties? I think the reference is in Goldman's book. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Peterkeith99 (talk • contribs) 02:49, 24 December 2006 (UTC).

That is the only place these "rumours" seem to appear, and Goldman's book has been denounced time and again by people who knew John Lennon, up to and including Paul McCartney, who would have known if anyone knew. (This despite Goldman's portrayal of McCartney as the only real talent in the Beatles.) Zephyrad 04:10, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

500/5 or President bass?

Why is the model of the guitar being changed? The reference identifies it as a President and Klaus Voorman signed the authentication statement. surely he of all people, would know which model Sutcliffe had? Cheers, Vera, Chuck & Dave 02:45, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

hi there. i've got a 1959 500/5 bass so consider myself a bit of an expert/geek on these things. it's true that this model evolved into the similar-looking (and much more popular) president, but the president bass didn't come out until the early 1960s and had different pickups and slightly altered styling.

there are many internet links to verify these facts. http://vintagehofner.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/basses/bas18.html http://www.recmusicbeatles.com/public/files/bbs/bass-player.html (interview with paul mccartney) http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/hofner/collect/col9.html

these are just three such links. try doing a google search for "hofner 500/5" if you want more. the link in the article to the auction site merely demonstrates that auctioneers are not guitar experts! if you'd like more info about this please visit http://ccgi.harrisonwass.plus.com/sms/index.php

In 1959 in Europe only, this model was known as the 500/5-President Bass.Hofner's web site I've amended the article accordingly Cheers, Vera, Chuck & Dave 23:50, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Work

I have started to work on this, but it might seem a bit messy at first, as I'm just throwing sentences and references in.andreasegde 03:26, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I have put it up for GA, but I will work on extra refs today, and tomorrow. andreasegde 08:20, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm reviewing it for GA, and these are the problems so far:

1. Sutcliffe was born at the Simpson Memorial Maternity Pavilion Hospital in 1940, in Edinburgh, Scotland, and was brought up in the St Johns area of Huyton, Merseyside in England. He attended the Prescot Grammar School, and was the son of a schoolteacher. Needs to be referenced
2. ...and was a cold, unwelcoming place, with bare lightbulbs, dirty floorboards and a mattress on the floor in the corner. Seems to be unneccessary/trivial.
3. Sutcliffe's playing style was elementary, mostly sticking to root notes of chords. Needs to be referenced.
4. Bill Harry, founder and editor of the Mersey Beat newspaper, has said that Sutcliffe was a competent, although not brilliant, bassist, and that accounts of his musical ineptitude were exaggerated. Needs to be referenced.
5. George Harrison was later sent back to England for being under-age, and McCartney and Best for attempted arson at the Bambi Kino, which left Lennon and Sutcliffe in Hamburg. Needs to be referenced.
6. Because of the limitations of medical knowledge at that time, it has never been known for certain what caused the brain haemorrhage that took Sutcliffe's life. It was long believed that the cause was an earlier head injury; likely sustained outside the Litherland Town Hall in Liverpool in an attack by local roughs, after a live performance sometime in 1961. According to accounts by Kirchherr, former manager Allan Williams, the other Beatles and many close associates, Lennon and Pete Best came to Sutcliffe's aid, fighting off his attackers and taking him to safety. Arriving home, Sutcliffe refused medical attention, only seeing a doctor months later in Germany, when he began having severe headaches, and acute sensitivity to light. Kirchherr said later that some of the headaches left Sutcliffe temporarily blind. Sutcliffe's sister, Pauline, has always claimed that Lennon was the cause of her brother's death, asserting that the two had fought in Hamburg, Germany sometime later. According to her account, Lennon had repeatedly kicked Sutcliffe in the head and Sutcliffe never recovered from the injuries. (Her claims are echoed in Albert Goldman's controversial 1988 book The Lives of John Lennon.) In 2001, she asserted that late in his life, Lennon himself had admitted this attack and felt guilty over the possible role it played in Sutcliffe's death. However, beyond Pauline, there is no corroboration. From subsequent reviews of Sutcliffe's symptoms and advancements in the study of neurovascular afflictions, it has been suggested that the cause of death was arteriovenous malformation, an hereditary condition.

Whole section needs to be referenced.

1. As an artist, Sutcliffe displayed considerable talent from an early age. Needs to be referenced or deleted.

If this is too big to do, then maybe this should be failed and then nominated at a later date. Hanuab 09:28, 9 May 2007 (UTC)