Talk:Jeju Air Flight 2216

Should we use (known)

Since the total amount of casualties and survivors are not finalized, should we put (known) next to the survivors and casualties on the summary table? CrushedAsian255 (talk) 01:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Maybe "reported" is better. The story is still unfolding. guninvalid (talk) 01:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Alternatively, I think I agree with @Mason7512's edit. Probably better to keep the numbers off the infobox entirely for now. guninvalid (talk) 01:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

is it possible to put citations in the infobox? CrushedAsian255 (talk) 01:40, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

yes, you just have to place it in plain wiki text (i.e. <ref>{{Cite news|....}}</ref> ) Mason7512 (talk) 01:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes. I put one in for the plane type already, but you can do full citation format in infobox. guninvalid (talk) 01:46, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Statement From Jeonnam Fire Department: 179 out of 181 unfortunately passed away.[1] Yosh56 (talk) 03:48, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

I think we should hold off on putting any numbers in the infobox until official statements on definitive or known numbers are made (not just "__ feared dead" or "__possible casualities" or "approximately ___". There is no harm in waiting for the situation to develop. Mason7512 (talk) 01:47, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

I think this is the best idea until more information comes out. CrushedAsian255 (talk) 01:49, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

I added a comment in the Infobox wikitext but people are still adding numbers, don't want to break the 3RR CrushedAsian255 (talk) 01:53, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

I think it's about time we take this to WP:RFPP. guninvalid (talk) 02:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Definitely. CommissarDoggo^Talk? 02:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Listed at WP:RPPI#Jeju Air Flight 2216. guninvalid (talk) 02:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

https://x.com/yonhaptweet/status/1873214955597783099

korean news confirming official death toll is now 75, should be updated but people keep reverting 87.208.30.164 (talk) 04:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Name Jeju or South korean

Jeju Airline — South Korean airline, WP:COMMON QalasQalas (talk) 02:13, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

I would 100% go Jeju here, as Korean Air is a thing I believe, and they are much more well known. the wildfire update guy that also writes about other weather (talk) 03:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

27th December diversion

The following statement is published in the articles opening. There is no indication how relevant this is to the article. The source also states the reason for the diversion is unknown. I don't believe this should be included. It alludes to be related to the accident, but at this stage this isn't proven.

The aircraft involved, HL8088, had been involved in an emergency landing on the 27th of December, two days prior to Flight 2216. It had been diverted from Beijing-Daxing to Seoul-Incheon. JetBlast (talk) 02:20, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I put it there temporarily with the intent that it be integrated into a section for background. It now has been, thank you for bringing this up. Darer101 (talk) 02:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

I am not sure it should be in the article at all. At the moment there is nothing to link this diversion to the accident. JetBlast (talk) 02:29, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

That's true but it is of notability for the aircraft history. Darer101 (talk) 02:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

I am sure the aircraft has diverted many more times for the years. We wouldn't list all those would we? Listing this event here is purely scaremongering. JetBlast (talk) 02:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Image

If someone has a high-quality image of HL8088 with good copyright, please contribute! Darer101 (talk) 02:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

I've contacted multiple people on Flickr to see whether they're willing to change their licensing to a Commons compatible one. In the meantime, the aircraft's other identity, Ryanair's EI-EFR, has plenty of images for use for now. S5A-0043🚎^{(Leave a message here)} 03:47, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Just sent an email to a photographer that has a photo on jetphotos.com. Waiting for response. the wildfire update guy that also writes about other weather (talk) 03:48, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Appropriate to use Engine Surge?

There is a video Source showing a supposed Engine Surge while the plane was mid flight. Yosh56 (talk) 02:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

@Yosh56 Please see WP:TWITTER, we can't use Twitter as a source. CommissarDoggo^Talk? 02:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

I can't find the source, I saw it from a twitter video. However it was from the news article covering the crash

Here is the news channel covering the accident

https://imnews.imbc.com/m_main.html Yosh56 (talk) 02:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

@Yosh56 I might sound rude here so I do apologise in advance for my bluntness, upon a quick inspection I can't find the image you're talking about, and I can't read Korean(?) so I can't personally verify that it says anything about an engine surge on the page. Do you have any other sources stating that an engine surge was seen? CommissarDoggo^Talk? 02:46, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

You're good, I am actually studying for my PPL. From the twitter video I linked you can see the engine is spewing fire, that usually indicates that it was an engine surge. This surge may be because of the bird strike. I was thinking it would be valuable to put on the Wikipedia Article. Yosh56 (talk) 02:49, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Or it may be a compressor stall Yosh56 (talk) 02:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

@Yosh56 Unfortunately, calling it an engine surge or a compressor stall would be classed as original research at this juncture. Wikipedia is in the business of summarising what sources say about a subject. CommissarDoggo^Talk? 02:51, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

I will try to translate the news article, and find where it mentions engine surge/compressor stall. Yosh56 (talk) 02:53, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Actually, real quick lemme ping you a welcome message on your talk page, I see you got one back in 2019 but it's always useful to get new info. CommissarDoggo^Talk? 02:53, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Insert Image of Plane Crash

Insert the image of the plane crash. SimpleSubCubicGraph (talk) 02:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

@SimpleSubCubicGraph If you've got one that's copyright free, feel free. Otherwise it simply cannot be included I'm afraid. CommissarDoggo^Talk? 02:43, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

@CommissarDoggo: What about a WP:NFI? E_F⁵ 03:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

@EF5 There are certainly plenty of potential candidates around at the moment, definitely worth a look. CommissarDoggo^Talk? 03:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

WP:BRD

@ItzChickenYall, please explain why including both the year of manufacture and specifying how old the aircraft is isn't redundant? CommissarDoggo^Talk? 02:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

@ItzChickenYall Tagging again, in case you missed the first one. CommissarDoggo^Talk? 03:09, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

I've seen it go both ways. The Azerbaijan crash has the year of aircraft listed, while JAL123 does not. Tenerife has the date of first flight of one of the planes, but not the other. the wildfire update guy that also writes about other weather (talk) 03:29, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

The year of manufacture or how old it is fine in my eyes, it just seems pretty redundant to say "this plane was manufactured in x year, it is y years old." CommissarDoggo^Talk? 03:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Good point there. I feel like how old it is would be a better way to go here as people cannot math the wildfire update guy that also writes about other weather (talk) 03:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Notification of restored source

Hi @CommissarDoggo, just letting you know I've restored the tweet by FlightRadar24 per WP:RS/SPS since I believe they're a subject matter expert. Staraction (talk | contribs) 03:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

@Staraction Yup, thanks for the courtesy ping. Didn't take much of a look at the source itself, just saw Twitter and saw red haha. CommissarDoggo^Talk? 03:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

@ItzChickenYall - same thing here; I'll WP:BOLDly restore this time; will not if it gets reverted again per WP:3RR. Staraction (talk | contribs) 03:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Alright, I've been reverted again by @ItzChickenYall - could you please let me know why you're reverting the source addition? Thanks. Staraction (talk | contribs) 03:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

because its a WP:TWITTER source ItzChickenYall (talk) 03:17, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Note WP:TWITTER states "Self-published and questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, usually in articles about themselves or their activities, without the self-published source requirement that they are established experts in the field..." - in this case, I believe Flightradar24 qualifies as an expert in the field. Additionally, WP:RS/SPS (just two sections of scrolling above the WP:TWITTER link!) provides that "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications" - which I believe is true of Flightradar24. Staraction (talk | contribs) 03:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Ok i see what you mean now. sorry for the inconvenience ItzChickenYall (talk) 03:19, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Got it! Will restore now per agreement achieved on talk page. Staraction (talk | contribs) 03:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Might be a good idea to put an invisible note near the FR24 source to avoid it getting removed again. I've also added another source as a backup. S5A-0043🚎^{(Leave a message here)} 03:38, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Nationality of victims?

Are the nationality of victims really all that notable? I'm new to airplane articles but I'm afraid we will run into cluttering issues with those types of things, as each country's local media will likely report "XXX *insert country* nationals killed", and I feel like it would not be necessary to include all of them. the wildfire update guy that also writes about other weather (talk) 03:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

"The passengers included two Thai nationals and the rest are believed to be South Koreans, according to the transportation ministry." [2] Yosh56 (talk) 03:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, I misread your question.

Usually, in most Wikipedia articles related to aviation accidents (especially of this scale), there is a table of nationality's that were in the manifest. At the present moment, that is the information given from the Transportation Minstry. Yosh56 (talk) 03:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! Aviation is out of my normal domain(I normally do weather-related articles and maybe a bit of earthquakes). the wildfire update guy that also writes about other weather (talk) 03:38, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Why was the table removed? I understand only two presumed nationalities were involved, however it would make sense to have a table to line up for air disaster articles. Yosh56 (talk) 03:59, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

It would generally if the passenger list was multinational, but at the moment it seems to be majority Korean and two Thai outliers. CommissarDoggo^Talk? 04:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

They are standard for all air disaster articles. Darer101 (talk) 03:46, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Finalized Fatality Count

Jeonnam Fire Department: All passengers who crashed at Muan Airport are presumed dead except for 2 survivors[3] Yosh56 (talk) 03:51, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

I would not say this is finalized yet. Presumed dead is not yet confirmed. the wildfire update guy that also writes about other weather (talk) 03:56, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Sorry for jumping the gun, this was the statement from the fire department. Yosh56 (talk) 04:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Presumed is a mistranslation. The word used in the article is "추정" which best translates to estimated. The fatality count in no way should draw from this just yet. Darer101 (talk) 04:05, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Wrong name order in refs

A number of refs flipped the surname and given name. Could someone fix? seefooddiet (talk) 03:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

To the person who keeps adding the see also section

This section normally comes along after all of the information has been made clear and comparisons are made. As this is a recent incident so please don't add the See Also. Darer101 (talk) 03:59, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Ryanair or Jeju Air plane image??

Everybody keeps flip flopping between using an image of the plane when it was EI-EFR and an image of the plane as HL8088. Can y'all please clarify why you're doing this before you get into an edit war? Thanks. Poxy4 (talk) 04:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC)