Talk:Republic of Ireland

Not the Republic of Ireland

The name of Ireland is simply Ireland and not the Republic of Ireland. One may refer to the official list of countries from the United Nations or to the websites of the government of Ireland which both indicate this 72.51.112.144 (talk) 16:53, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes everyone knows. However it's a natural disambiguator since the island is also called Ireland. There are very few country articles on Wikipedia that are actually at their official names. Canterbury Tail talk 17:08, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Its official description is "Republic of Ireland" which is used as natural disambiguation, see discussions at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration. In contrast "Republic of France" isn't common usage and the country is primary which is why we don't use the official description for France. Crouch, Swale (talk) 16:59, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Hi, well noted. However unlike the use of "Republic of France", "Ireland" is by the far the most common name used for the state in everyday use, both nationally (Ireland) and internationally (Europe, US and further a field). This is clearly demonstrated in the name of state in Wikipedia pages in other languages, for example Irish, German, French, and Dutch. There is little argument for the continued use of the "Republic of Ireland", it has no legal basis or no basis in everyday use. TomÓCiarraí (talk) 09:28, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

@TomÓCiarraí: How do you distinguish between the island of Ireland, and the country of Ireland? You will see at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration which @Crouch, Swale referred to above, that there have been several long discussions previously about this, but never a WP:CONSENSUS to change the articles' names. Bazza 7 (talk) 09:40, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

I know this has been discussed to death but surely putting the island to "Ireland (island)" and the country to "Ireland" would be the most accommodating arrangement? What are the cons? I think it makes sense that the country would take precedence over the geography (some examples I came up with: America points to USA not the continent, Austrailia points to the country not continent). D1551D3N7 (talk) 20:23, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Why not the island as "Ireland" and the country to "Ireland (state)"? The island is likely the primary usage considering its existence throughout history and not just 100 and a bit years. Canterbury Tail talk 20:36, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Age isn't the primary factor in which page should take precedence. Notice how America and Australia have existed as continents for millennia and yet the country takes precedence.

You are making an assumption when you say the island is the primary usage. I checked the page statistics here and while the island page is currently higher I reckon that's due to it currently being the primary as the patterns on both pages match up. This indicates to me that most views are expecting the country and clicking through to the country page rather than finding what they want on the island page (there is also the possibility of reading both pages).

As an Irish person I find it somewhat demeaning that you insist the island is the main page and relegate the country to being the secondary topic and clearly others feel this way also whereas moving the island page is generally inoffensive. D1551D3N7 (talk) 21:14, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Completely agree, that the country should take precedence over the island. More times than not when people refer to Ireland they are referring to the country not the island. As mentioned before this is not the case for Wikipedia in other languages, and the current setup in English is confusing to say the least. TomÓCiarraí (talk) 09:50, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Do you have evidence for that that takes into account thousands of years of historical record before the country was formed? A huge proportion of the world doesn't actually realise there's a difference between Ireland the country and Ireland the island, and most overseas interactions with Ireland on a personal level are regarding the island historically and not the modern political state. As an Irish person I find it somewhat demeaning that people want to sweep aside the history of the island and say that it's only the modern state that is the important topic. Canterbury Tail talk 11:11, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Cannot see how this is sweeping aside history. The modern country of Ireland is very much connected with its history, the country was not created in a vacuum. Struggling to see what your reason is to not call the country by its official name, and the name in which most people globally use (aside from the UK potentially). TomÓCiarraí (talk) 11:41, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Hi, generally in Ireland and internationally both officially and informally when referring to the country "Ireland" is used and when referring to the island "Island of Ireland" is used. TomÓCiarraí (talk) 09:44, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Actually I meant "French Republic" but in any case although that may be the long official descriptive name I've never heard it used while I've always heard Ireland, the country called "Republic of Ireland" which specifically stated as being the official description. The French constitution doesn't appear to specify the country's long official descriptive name but more importantly is common usage. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:49, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

There's a page on this at Names of the Irish state which is very detailed.

As you are British you will commonly be exposed to "Republic of Ireland" in usage as that's the name British law has chosen to use but for people living in Ireland and the rest of the world this is not the case. The name for the UN, EU, Council of Europe, IMF and OECD is "Ireland". The only place "Republic of Ireland" is used as a name is for the soccer team and also notably this Wikipedia page. Google for "Ireland" and "Republic of Ireland" and notice the difference in the results.

An "official description" is not a name, why are we supposed to use a description of the country as the title instead of its common and constitutional name?

Only Brits commonly use the "Republic of Ireland" due to Northern Ireland being a common part of their discourse (and need to disambiguate for politics, travel, business) but other countries internationally assume Ireland to be the country or don't have a need for disambiguation so often. Normally if people want to refer to NI they say NI, it's only in the UK that people would ever assume "Ireland" to mean "Northern Ireland" and thus need to disambiguate. D1551D3N7 (talk) 20:45, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Hi, irish person here, I regularly use the term "Republic of Ireland". I find it useful to use the term to differentiate between the country & the island. 188.141.65.45 (talk) 18:35, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Also, the constitution calls the country "The Republic of Ireland". 188.141.65.45 (talk) 18:39, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't. Article 4 of Bunracht is pretty short and very clear.

"The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland." Cashew.wheel (talk) 19:11, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

The description of the country is separate to the name of the country. As per Article 4 of the Constitution, the name of the country in English is "Ireland". "Republic of Ireland" has no official status as a name. TomÓCiarraí (talk) 09:55, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

And not a single person here thinks otherwise. Canterbury Tail talk 11:11, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

You are indeed correct. Just wanted to ensure there was no equivalence given between description and official name. TomÓCiarraí (talk) 11:44, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Can I please ask those who are simply restating established facts, as if they are arguments, to realise that you're not going to "one and done" this discussion by doing so. It is acknowledged fact that Ireland is the name of the state (per the constitution). And that the Republic of Ireland is a description (per the Act). And that the island is also called Ireland (commonly and per the constitution). Etc. Simply restating these established facts (as a kind of "gotcha") is pointless. And does not address the issue that we cannot have two articles with the same title. Please argue your point on the basis of your proposal. And the relevant naming and disambiguation guidelines. For example, if you think that it should be "Ireland" and "Ireland (island)", then argue why the name of the state is (now) the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC (over the island). Or, if you think it should be "Ireland (state)" and "Ireland", then argue why a clunky/Wikipedia-only parenthetical disambiguator is preferred over the common, natural language and officially recognised descriptor. To the extent that WP:NCDAB should be overlooked. Stating things like "the state is called Ireland [fullstop/gotcha]", or "Republic of Ireland is a description not the official name [mike drop]", is about as useful in progressing this discussion as quoting Pi to 10 decimal places. Guliolopez (talk) 12:01, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Well noted. I would argue for the use of Ireland / Ireland (Island) over Ireland (Country) / Ireland, as the former is the primary use of the term. This is demonstrated by a Google search where the majority of results relate to the country not the island. The term for the island has limited use, namely the geographical use for the island and organisations that cover Ireland and Northern Ireland such as the Irish rugby team. All other uses relate to the country. TomÓCiarraí (talk) 14:05, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Its the official description of the state, isn't that the point? When disambiguation is needed as it is on Wikipedia the description is appropriate but when it isn't such as when linking the country in the infobox of Rathmullan it is piped as "Ireland". Per WP:NCDAB if there is a term which is commonly used it can be used for natural disambiguation which seems appropriate here. Crouch, Swale (talk) 16:34, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

We are talking about a name not a description. They should not be equated. Officially the state should never be referred to as the Republic Ireland, hence this element of the 1948 act is irrelevant to this discussion on the name. As suggested the terms Ireland and Ireland (Island) should be used instead, given Ireland the country is the primary use of the term and not the island. Furthermore this overcomes the confusion between both terms. TomÓCiarraí (talk) 18:29, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

I would like to support Tom's recommendation (new account but please don't hold that against me) that the primary use of "Ireland" should refer to the country rather than the island. I've noted the discussion at this location and elsewhere that not all states are referred to by their official name in their URL, however, I would suggest Ireland is unique in being the only country on Wikipedia where its name is shared with a geographic feature and the geographic feature takes precedence. By way of example, the primary topic for Belize, Jordan, Moldova, Niger, Paraguay, Chad and Guinea all refer to the states rather than the geographic features that share their name, i.e. Belize River, Jordan River, Moldova River, Niger River, Paraguay River, Lake Chad and Gulf of Guinea respectively. I would suggest Ireland the state should be at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland and the island of Ireland should be at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland (island) or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island of Ireland. Most people in Ireland and Northern Ireland would use the phrase "Island of Ireland" if needing to make the distinction between the state and the island but I appreciate the URL is a touch unwieldy so the bracketed (island) version may be more appropriate. Moreover, I think, as Tom mentions, generally, throughout the world, the use of Ireland refers to the state; that's not to say in some contexts people wouldn't use Ireland to refer to the island but it's most definitely in the minority. Consider the use of Paraguay; if the primary Wikipedia topic was about the Paraguay River and it said (paraphrasing) "oh, you're looking for the state, that's over here", I think it would be considered odd, confusing and inconsistent. Using Republic of Ireland for the topic on the state named Ireland seems incorrect and a touch anachronistic when a more sensible and consistent solution is available. Jkelly789 (talk) 01:47, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Rivers and lakes are not a good example as most if not all rivers and lakes on Wikipedia take the form "Lake X" or "River X" and don't run in to the same problem as this article, there was never an intention to name the page "Paraguay River" as just "Paraguay". This is why I used the continents examples (Australia, America) which would be referred to in a way that conflicts with the country. Most island states seem to have just one article for both country and island from what I can find (even Cyprus where the island has occupied territory).

• Madagascar has an article for the island at Geography of Madagascar but the state comes first.
• Solomon Islands is the state, geography is at Solomon Islands (archipelago).
• Comoros is the state, geography is at Comoro Islands.
• Samoa is the state, geography is at Samoan Islands.

There is a counter-example where Micronesia is the geographical group and the state is at Federated States of Micronesia but this has differing factors in that it is a collection of islands and "Micronesia" contains islands than the just state D1551D3N7 (talk) 08:35, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Noted on the rivers, lakes and gulfs @D1551D3N7. I suppose the point was to supplement other examples mentioned including your references to Australia and America and highlight that Ireland is perhaps the only topic which refers to a geographic feature in the primacy over a state of the same name. I agree that the country should be at Ireland and the island should be at Ireland (island). 70.36.53.242 (talk) 23:30, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

@TomÓCiarraí Wikipedia doesn't determine article titles based on what something should and should not be called officially, but what is commonly used and practical to an article's specific situation. That's the same reason that Turkey is still the main article for the country whose government would say you should only officially call it "Türkiye".

As others have said, Wikipedians did know how each term was in use when the decision for the status quo was reached. If it's to be changed, there would need to be something new or not previously discussed. Jèrriais janne (talk) 16:05, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

As has been explained multiple times in the thread the current title is neither an official name or a common name which makes it different from examples like Turkey where Turkey is a common name for the country. To say this argument is the same as a "use official name" discussion is a misrepresentation. D1551D3N7 (talk) 16:34, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

I feel that 'Ireland (island)' is clunky whereas 'Republic of Ireland' is an elegant disambiguation. So I'm opposed to change. Dgp4004 (talk) 08:34, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

The discussion has moved on from the use of the Republic of Ireland as the name of the state, given this is not the official name and not the name in which most people refer to the country. The question is now which is the primary use of the term Ireland, the state or the island. From my viewpoint the answer is clearly the state. Any additional thoughts? TomÓCiarraí (talk) 10:48, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

What references and evidence do you have that the state is the primary usage whenever people say Ireland? Canterbury Tail talk 11:47, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Firstly if you look at Google Trends for searches globally over the last 5 years searches related to Ireland and country or state, are consistently higher than searches related to Ireland and island. Notwithstanding this, many of the top searches for Ireland and Island relate to River Island, Love Island or the islands of Ireland (such as Achill). Which can be further discounted from the searches related to Ireland and Island.

Secondly, if you consider on a world or European stage, Ireland refers to the country not the island. For example: IMF, OECD, EU, European Council and UN. This is also reflected in non governmental organisations such as the International Energy Agency, European Broadcasting Union, World Medical Association, International Committee of the Red Cross, and the International Federation of Arts Councils and Culture Agencies to name but a few. There are limited organisations that refer to the island like rugby and hockey.

Therefore, the evidence is clear that Ireland primarily refers to the country not the island. If you believe otherwise please put forward the evidence. TomÓCiarraí (talk) 15:07, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, what evidence would that be, exactly? You're just stating things, and claiming they're facts. They're not. If you're doing some sort of WP:GHITS research, then share your links to your results. I'd love to see what search terms you're using that are bringing in "Love Island" and "River Island" as bona fide results for a search presumably using keywords along the lines of "Island of Ireland" or some variation thereof! Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 09:48, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

I've yet to see any clear evidence that the island is the primary usage either, just it's longer history. Alas given the status quo, the burden of proof appears to fall on those wanting change.

My position is that using disambiguating parentheses is preferential as the current situation simply perpetuates the fallacy that the name of the country is "Republic Of Ireland" (both on Wikipedia and other sites that source their data from the wiki, an often overlooked side effect).

I'm sure long term editors are jaded by this topic arising every few months both here and historically at WT:IECOLL, but I would ask this; if the names of the pages were to change, do you think there would be as much demand to revert to "Republic of" as there was to remove it? Cashew.wheel (talk) 16:30, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm aware that 'Republic of Ireland' is not the name of the state. It is, however, the name of the Wikipedia page and I don't support changing to either 'Ireland (island)' or 'Ireland (state)'. 'Republic of Ireland' is fine in my view. Dgp4004 (talk) 11:27, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

That's a bit of a circular argument, this discussion is about the name of the Wikipedia page. If you feel the name of the page should be the Republic of Ireland, please put forward the reasons why. The evidence is pretty clear, globally Ireland is the name used both officially and colloquially by most organisations and people (see previous comments). The only exception to this is in the UK, in which Republic of Ireland is used frequently. That said the British Government officially refers to the country as Ireland not the Republic of Ireland.

Finally, I do think that wishes of the country regarding its naming should be respected. It's not a name that is disputed like North Macedonia. To disregard the correct and preferred name is insensitive. TomÓCiarraí (talk) 15:26, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

"The wishes of the country" is a bit of a stretch, Tom. There are very few countries on Wikipedia that are actually at their official name. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 09:48, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

I think this argument that other countries aren't at their official names is flawed. In Ireland's case both the official and commonly used name are the same. All the examples people give are at the name people commonly use to refer to the country (France, Libya, Mexico, Vatican City, United Kingdom are the examples cited before) and are thus uncontroversial (I couldn't find any discussions trying to use the official names) but here we have a title that is both not the common or official name as the title. D1551D3N7 (talk) 12:00, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

"To disregard the correct and preferred name is insensitive" "I do think that wishes of the country regarding its naming should be respected" I am irish, and I prefer the current name. So, you claiming that the wishes of the country are to be respected is just like a child on a playground saying "Call him stinkface, he told me to." 188.141.65.45 (talk) 18:53, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm also opposed to this change. Contrary to what is being said about primary topic, when I google "Ireland": https://www.google.com/search?q=ireland+-wikipedia, only six of the top twenty hits relate to the republic. The rest relate to all-Ireland, the island or Northern Ireland. DrKay (talk) 15:34, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

This is anecdotal evidence, as your Google search is heavily influenced by your search history and location. My Google search returns much more website revering to the country not island. That's why I referenced Google Trends data in my previous comment. There are much more Google searches linked to the country/state than island globally over last 5 years (max time period). TomÓCiarraí (talk) 15:54, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

This is anecdote, Tom, as you haven't presented any evidence. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 09:48, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

If your argument is that people looking for the state are getting lost, that's an argument for making 'Ireland' a disambiguation page like Britain surely? Then they can choose the state or the island from there.

But most of the arguments put forward seem more about emotion / nationhood which is not a good basis on which to make the change. Dgp4004 (talk) 15:59, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Apologies, if my previous comment was not clear. The Google Trends data relates to the number of search results not searches. There are more search results for Ireland that include country or state than island. I also mentioned most organisations globally refer to Ireland as the country not the island. It is incorrect to call these emotional arguments, if you have other evidence or arguments to contrary, please put them forward. TomÓCiarraí (talk) 16:23, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Also anecdotally of course (from a stateless browser in Canada), excluding Wikipedia, the top results I receive for a Google search for [Ireland] are:

- Tourism Ireland (ireland.com, all-island - weren't the Irish Times generous to give up this domain name!)

- Failte Ireland (discoverireland.ie, Ireland)

- Brittanica (britannica.com, Ireland)

- Irish Government (gov.ie, Ireland)

- Education in Ireland (educationinireland.com, Ireland)

- Department of Foreign Affairs (ireland.ie, Ireland)

- National Geographic Kids (kids.nationalgeographic.com, Ireland)

- National Gallery of Ireland (nationalgallery.ie, Ireland)

- Department of Foreign Affairs (dfa.ie, Ireland)

- The Irish Times (irishtimes.com, Ireland)

So, 9 out of 10 refer to the state rather than the island. Tourism Ireland is the only all-island result (again, for me, in Canada) in the top 10. Tourism Ireland is of course based in Ireland but promotes the entire island post Good Friday Agreement. Searches conducted from Ireland and the UK will likely not reflect what most of the world sees. Jkelly789 (talk) 23:51, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Contrary to what is being claimed here, google trends demonstrates more worldwide searches for the island rather than the country: https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=now%201-d&q=%2Fm%2F03rt9,%2Fm%2F012wgb&hl=en-US. DrKay (talk) 19:00, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

I don't think there's any information to be extracted from that page, its unclear exactly how they determine which is which. All the related queries for both refer to the country and the graph is almost the exact same as well, the difference is minor D1551D3N7 (talk) 19:20, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

The link you shared does not fully work and the time period you searched is the past day. See below the link for worldwide results from 2004 to today for "Ireland Country + Ireland State" versus "Ireland Island. Both Country and State are used as both are relevant words, the "+" acts as an or. As you can see Country/State is always higher than Island for the whole period since 2004. Additionally the top 3 results for Island relate to River Island so the island results can be discounted even further.

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?hl=en-GB&tz=-180&date=all&q=Ireland+island,Ireland+country+%2B+Ireland+state&sni=6 TomÓCiarraí (talk) 05:58, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

That's a completely flawed methodology. You are ignoring that (I would imagine) for the vast majority of people putting "Ireland" into a search engine, we simply don't know whether they are looking for the state, or the island. The fact that "River Island" is a top result would suggest that Google Trends' results and algorithms have been as subject to enshittification as the rest of Google. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 09:57, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

I am afraid you don't understand how Google Trends data works. It shows how many results contain "Ireland" and "Island", in any order. This is not how many people searched these terms. The top results for these terms indicate the top searches that included terms "Ireland" and "Island" in search results. In this case the top 3 searches were related to retail chain River Island, which for this discussion whether "Ireland" primary usage is the island or the country is irrelevant. These results are made up of people searching for River Island (mostly likely in Ireland) and getting the terms Ireland and island included in their results. Hence based on Google search results there are much more results related to the country than the island. TomÓCiarraí (talk) 10:16, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

The top 5 searches for "Ireland country + Ireland state" relate to country code and Northern Ireland. That is no more relevant than River Island. The data and your claims about it are unconvincing. DrKay (talk) 11:23, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

The top search is "country of Ireland", 3 of the other top 5 searches relate to country code which likely refers to the phone country code (+353), and 1 of the the top 5 results relate to NI. Hence the majority of the top 5 searches relating to "country" are relevant while the majority of the top 5 island searches are irrelevant (i.e. River Island). TomÓCiarraí (talk) 13:56, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

The articles are fine at their current respective homes. In my opinion, as a disambiguator is needed, the natural one is the state's official description. Most states on WP do not have articles at their official name - it's really no biggie. No offense is intended. The vast majority don't take any. (The decision to stop using WP:IECOLL may well have been premature...) Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 09:57, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Please put forward evidence why you think the island is the primary use of the term Ireland, not the country. I have put forward evidence above based on Google Trends data and how the vast majority of organisations (in all fields: government, arts, medicine, charity etc) globally refer to the country not the island when they use the term Ireland. TomÓCiarraí (talk) 10:21, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Please stop referring to the description as per the 1948 Act, you are misunderstanding its use. It should be never used as a name. TomÓCiarraí (talk) 10:23, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

For the record: I would support 'Ireland' for the country name and 'Ireland (island)' for the geographical page. This brings it into line with usage elsewhere, as covered well enough above. I am concerned that Wiki is perpetuating the common misconception that 'Ireland' is the island. As a young Brit whose Dad served in the British Army in Belfast back in the Troubles, I recollect the passionate view at the time that the Republic should not be permitted to appropriate the formerly British-owned term, 'Ireland', and for a while it was Eire. I now feel that the colonial view of Ireland is carried on by Wiki these days and that we should all move on. The name of a country should be what its inhabitants say it is. There was a referendum, we Brits lost. Time we accepted that. Ex nihil ^(talk) 10:56, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

"the common misconception that 'Ireland' is the island." Um... Ireland is the island. It doesn't have another name. (And one day, the state will also share the same territory). Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 12:33, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Please stop telling me what to do. I am misunderstanding nothing, including how Google Trends works. As I stated, your premise - "Ireland+island,Ireland+country+%2B+Ireland+state" - is flawed from the get-go. Now, we've both had our say. Let's not bludgeon the process, and listen to some other opinions. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 10:46, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree @Bastun that a disambiguator is needed but in my opinion, Ireland (island) is a better solution than using the description and not the common, and indeed official, name of the country, Ireland, when referencing the state. You state that most articles do not appear at their official name but almost none appear at their full description, e.g. there don't seem to be topics on "Federal Republic of Germany", "The Commonwealth of Australia", "The Kingdom of the Netherlands" or "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"; presumably because it's unwieldy and these states are not commonly known by their full descriptions. @D1551D3N7 raises this point elsewhere that Ireland seems to be somewhat unique in that neither the common nor official name is in use. Referring to the state as Republic of Ireland is not incorrect but refusing to refer to the state as Ireland has deep political connotations, specifically, many UK governments refused to use the term Ireland until post-Good Friday Agreement some 40 years after the name was adopted and Sinn Féin still refuse to use the term, i.e. a refusal to refer to the state correctly as Ireland is particularly common, although not exclusively, amongst the more extreme political ideologies of the Irish left and the British right. Jkelly789 (talk) 18:55, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

History section too recent?

I've noticed that the History section begins from 1800s. Usually the History section of other sovereign states starts from ancient or even prehistoric eras. Probably some sections from History of Ireland could be used to enhance this area? Maybe sum up a few important bits into new sections under History in this article? Bly000 (talk) 13:01, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

@Bly000: This article already contains some history about the period preceding its subject's existence. There were other entities before the Republic whose articles each have their own similar history sections covering the periods of their extent and a period before that; e.g. Kingdom of Ireland, Lordship of Ireland. I see no advantage in extending this article's history section to duplicate information already given elsewhere (and linked to from here). Bazza 7 (talk) 14:57, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Isn't this the point of History section to at least mention these periods with links to them? And anyone wanting to check more info would visit these pages? Kingdom of Ireland and Lordship of Ireland are not linked in the article at all. As a reader I would expect some at least short mention of these eras in the History section. I'm not talking about copying the pages, just a sum as it usually happens with other countries' History section Bly000 (talk) 15:24, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Ireland is NOT known as the Republic of Ireland

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

To quote

The term "Republic of Ireland" as detailed in the Irish Constitution is the official description of the state without changing any Constitutional name.

As a disambiguation, the descriptor "Republic of Ireland" is only used in a limited set of circumstances

It is of little wonder that Wikipedia continues to be reviled and viewed as an unreliable source where there is evident and deliberate use of bias and posting of misinformation on what is a matter of official record. 51.37.111.212 (talk) 12:52, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 18 August 2024

Republic of Ireland → Ireland – This is technically a request for two moves: Republic of Ireland to Ireland and merging the current Ireland article into Geography of Ireland (or temporarily moving it to Ireland (island)). I'm uncertain if this discussion would be better suited to a broader project talk page, which is why I'm making this proposal here. I am aware of the discussion, that decided to leave the articles on their current titles, but that was simply 15 years ago and there are good reasons for both moving and keeping. However, from what I can see, the reasons to move both articles seem to be predominant. Given the frequency of discussions, it is clear that many editors have made significant efforts on various talk pages to move this article, challenging the incorrect assumption by some editors that there is no reason to believe consensus could have changed over the past decade and a half.

"Republic of Ireland" is neither an official term nor is it common, except in Ireland itself and parts of the UK, thus eliminating it as an option. According to the UN. the official English name of the country is, as pointed out by other editors, simply "Ireland". On Wikipedia, we either use the short forms for countries (United Kingdom, Mexico, Russia, or Brazil) or we use the official name if it is already a single and concise term (Canada, Belize, Japan, Hungary). It is clear that this situation falls into the latter category, which also aligns with WP:CONCISE.

To avoid the use of parentheses, as seen in Georgia (country), we need to move the article about the island. Taking a glimpse at other island countries like Taiwan or Cyprus, which also occupy their respective short forms, it appears that "Geography of ..." is the established form to describe the underlying island on which the country is located (Geography of Taiwan, Geography of Cyprus). Since Ireland redundantly addresses the politics of its constituent countries—topics that are already covered in their respective articles—I suggest merging it with Geography of Ireland by removing all sections that go beyond the island of Ireland as their subject matter and incorporating all remaining subtopics, such as geological history, into the article Geography of Ireland. Any disambiguation pages don't have to be changed. –Tobias (talk) 13:01, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

• Note that there have been at least 25 discussions of the title since the poll linked above, so although many were closed early, the question has been revisited many times in the last 15 years. Most of the move discussion outcomes are compiled at Template:IrelandRMArchive. Dekimasuよ! 13:36, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
• There is no need to go back 15 years to find a discussion, there is one still on this page above. CMD (talk) 13:50, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

  I know, from what I can tell, the 2009 discussion was the initial talk about this topic. –Tobias (talk) 14:01, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

  That 2009 discussion was the result of the previous dozen move discussions that resulted in Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Ireland article names in 2008. Dekimasuよ! 14:14, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree with this suggestion for the most part. My only addition would be that some content might also have to be moved to History of Ireland Cashew.wheel (talk) 14:23, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

That is a good point, not all information are suitable for just the geography. –Tobias (talk) 15:04, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

• What evidence is there that the country of Ireland, a state that has existed for just over 100 years and doesn't occupy all of the island, is the primary subject here instead of the island? Why can't the country be at Ireland (country) and leave the island at Ireland? Is there evidence that when people say Ireland they're genuinely talking about the country and not the island and what exists in it, and not mixing the two up as is very commonplace? Canterbury Tail talk 15:54, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

  This is a good counterproposal, and I support this as Option B. Killuminator (talk) 16:29, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

  There is no hard evidence because we don't have access to all statistics, but there are indicators. For example, let's consider the average monthly page views of countries versus their respective islands in the cases of Taiwan and Cyprus according to the page view statistics: Taiwan (~ 420.000 views) vs Geography of Taiwan (~ 13.000 views) and Cyprus (~ 230.000 views) and Geography of Cyprus (~ 10.000 views). This suggests that states are far more searched for than the islands they occupy and I don't see a reason why this should be different for Ireland. In Ireland (~ 260.000 views) and Republic of Ireland (~ 200.000 views), Ireland's views are overall slightly higher than those of the Republic of Ireland.

  Since we don't have access to referral sources, we can't say anything for sure, but given the numbers, we can assume that a vast majority of the Republic of Ireland's views originate from the disambiguation hatnote on the Ireland page. People likely enter "Ireland" in the search bar as nobody initially searches for "Republic of Ireland", are directed to the article about the island, realise the article isn't about the state, and then click on the link in the lead to reach the country’s page. This would fit the difference of around 60.000 views with most likely a few visitors that closed the tab after reaching the article of the island.

  Given the lack of complete clarity, I would suggest aligning this case with similar topics like those mentioned earlier: Cyprus or Taiwan as well as Madagascar or Iceland. These all follow the pattern where the state is the main article, with an article about the island under "Geography of...".

  I don't entirely disagree with your suggestion to move it to Ireland (country), but I think the parentheses can be avoided here, and it would be better to do so if possible. –Tobias (talk) 18:56, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

  That is just WP:OR and as we all know, Wikipedia cannot be used as a reference and that includes page hits. It's pure supposition that that's what's happening. Canterbury Tail talk 22:19, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:DABCONCEPT, WP:COMMONNAME (including WP:NATURAL) and per WP:SED (which I wrote years ago, in terms of the merger of the island article). As has previously been discussed "Republic of Ireland" is an official description and is in common usage unlike say United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Georgia isn't comparable becauase the long name may not be official or at least isn't common usage, see Talk:Georgia (country)#Requested move 10 April 2024. Cyprus and Taiwan aren't comparable as in those cases the countries cover similar areas to the islands which isn't the case for Ireland where Northern Ireland covers a significant amount of the area and population. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:22, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

  Oh, Georgia isn't only comparable, but rather nearly the identical issue, a country without a long official form, only difference is that there is no made-up name that is used as an article title and there is a U.S. state with the same name. The discussion you mentioned supports my point, I'm just wondering why you think that this is any different than in this case. The idea of moving Georgia to a made-up name was vastly rejected. Here, we got the identical situation in reverse, with a made-up name already applied and my idea is to move it back to it's real, official, and more common name. I opened the discussion with those very guidelines you mentioned. WP:NATURAL requires a name that is not made-up, "Republic of Ireland" is a made-up name as it isn't broadly accepted (remember, globally, not only within the UK and Ireland) and not the official name either if we stick to the UN, which is probably the best way to determine, whether a term for a state is official or not. In this case, it is definitly not official unless you can not offer clear evidence for the claim that it is. WP:COMMONNAME contradicts your reasoning as well; "Ireland" is way more common than "Republic of Ireland", throughout the article as well as outside of Wikipedia, and by "way more", I mean more than fifty times as much.

  When you say that Cyprus isn't comparable, I just got one question for you: have you ever looked at a map of Cyprus showing the area of Northern Cyprus? This is exactly the same, we got two different states on one island; "Northern (island name)" on one hand and just "(island name)" on the other. Otherwise, I don't understand why this should be different; maybe you can explain this idea a little further? –Tobias (talk) 18:08, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

  Except that Republic of Ireland is not a made up name, it's in fact an official descriptor of the country. The constitution of the country gave us a natural disambiguator. And Republic of Ireland is indeed used, just ask the football team. And it's in use by the government of Ireland as a simple search across the government websites shows. It's not some made up term that is only used by the British or some such. Canterbury Tail talk 22:24, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

  Need I remind you that it was FIFA that imposed that name on the Football Association of Ireland team in 1953? Cashew.wheel (talk) 07:36, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

  You needn't, because we're not talking about the football team, we're talking about the island, and the state, which our government said could be officially described as 'the Republic of Ireland', in the Republic of Ireland Act, 1948. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 10:33, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

  "Republic of Ireland" is not tue common name. Globally "Ireland" is the common name for the country. Cashew.wheel (talk) 18:09, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose for the reasons I have stated every other time this has come up: in brief summary, the status quo works because 1) "Optimising for readers over editors" precludes use of artificial construct disambiguators such as Ireland (state), Ireland (island). 2) The island of Ireland is known as - well, "Ireland". In the English language, it does not have any alternative common name or description. WP:COMMONNAME can therefore be claimed by the article on the island. 3) Using "Republic of Ireland" for the state doesn't allow the state to reside at a page called by its official name - but so what? There are literally dozens of country articles in the Wiki not on the official name of their state. 4) Not only has there never been a consensus to move Republic of Ireland to Ireland, there is demonstrable consensus to retain the status quo. That's visible in the many, many polls taken prior to the 2009 poll, and in the ones since. My country's article isn't at its official name? So what. There are 205 articles on individual sovereign states on Wikipedia. Only 30 of them are at their official name. The status quo works. Tobias is, with the best will in the world, proposing a whole heap of work, for many editors, that ultimately doesn't benefit the reader. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 19:19, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

  Not really a consensus, just more seasoned editors shoot it down each time. Just because it's the status quo doesn't make it correct, otherwise this topic wouldn't get restarted monthly.Cashew.wheel (talk) 19:26, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, a consensus, really. Click on the link in my post. Scroll down a bit. Read the poll results. I've done that work, you can do the rest - all the ones since, up until last year, should be on the WP:IECOLL talk page. It's absolutely not "just more seasoned editors shooting it down each time." It is, quite often, more seasoned editors saying "Here's why the status quo works, but sure, consensus can change, do you have any new arguments?" - and there aren't any. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 19:35, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

  Oh, I've read it all. And I've seen that "consensus can change" line many time. Cashew.wheel (talk) 20:00, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

  Since I already answered most of this points in this discussion, I'll keep it short: short forms are no official names, but no made-up names either, so absolutely valid to use in terms of concision - "Republic of Ireland" is neither concise nor legally existing at all.

  There is a alternative to "Ireland", actually two: "Ireland (island)" and "Geography of Ireland". Both of them are common on WP with the latter option being predominantly used. –Tobias (talk) 20:23, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

  Wait, what now? 'Republic of Ireland is neither concise nor legally existing at all.', where's that coming from? I refer you to the Republic of Ireland Act. 'Republic of Ireland' is the official, legal description of the state. Which you would know if you'd read the articles in question, or the previous move debates. As a relatively inexperienced editor, editing outside your normal areas of interest, I'd suggest doing your research before making proposals from a position of ignorance, especially in controversial areas. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 09:22, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose - "Republic of Ireland" is an official term, while it is not the name of the state, it is the "official description" of the state. [1] That being said, we don't use official names here simply because they're official. Merging the existing Ireland article into Geography of Ireland is simply a non-starter as there is far more content in the former article than just about the island's geography. To have the country at the basename it would have to be the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, which is impossible to prove considering we have no way of determining whether searches for Ireland are for the country or the whole island. And yes, therein I could see an argument for a WP:NOPRIMARY with the basename as a dab and the two articles existing as Ireland (country)/Republic of Ireland and Ireland (island), but the whole island has the long-term significance (PT2) by default imo, and unless PT1 can be proven to favor the country, I see no reason to change the existing arrangement. estar8806 (talk) ★ 02:13, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

There is a method to evaluate WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, switch to a disambiguation page for a set period of time, after which the traffic to each can be evaluated to determine which topic readers are actually looking for. Cashew.wheel (talk) 07:26, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose long term significance goes to the island itself. The Kingdom of Ireland has just as much a claim to primacy, if not a greater one, than the modern Irish republic. Traumnovelle (talk) 05:10, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose The current arrangement is sensible. The name "Republic of Ireland" is well-known and frequently used to distinguish the country from the broader island. 2401:7000:CAD3:BB00:6C10:7147:5254:CEE5 (talk) 06:16, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Comment I couldn't help notice that the proposer recently flagged what they identified as problems on another article, and when asked to help with the cleanup they proposed, they responded with Great to hear that. I would love to help, but I currently don't have the time or motivation to rewrite the entire page. 🙄 Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 10:36, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. While the country is indeed commonly known as Ireland, it is not primary over the island. And it is also very commonly known as the Republic of Ireland or simply "the Republic", so the current title is very good natural disambiguation. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:39, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose: Oh no, not again! Oppose per previously reasons I've given in several other discussions as well as all the reasons given by other editors above, so there is no need to repeat them all here. Moving this to Geography of Ireland is just not thinking what that article is actually about. This is a dead topic, just leave it be, it works as it is. ww2censor (talk) 10:51, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose: I think the current title is appropriate. It's widely recognized and easily understood. Waqar💬 14:48, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose: Would introduce needless confusion and become factually incorrect. Ceoil (talk) 14:53, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

  @Ceoil How would it be "factually incorrect"? Cashew.wheel (talk) 16:31, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose per above, plus if this were to occur, we would have to say "Northern Ireland is not part of Ireland". The republic currently doesn't cover the entire island of the same name, and the island has long-term significance. The current arrangement is probably the best alternative option for the two "Ireland" subjects until political events change the situation. DankJae 14:59, 19 August 2024 (UTC)