Talk:TAI TF Kaan

Turkish / UK Origin

I Have listed the national origin as "Turkish, United Kingdom". Due to the fact that UK based BAE is providing design oversight and UK based Rolls Royce is providing propulsion. In addition, a recent statement from BAE says "At its peak, hundreds of Turkish and UK engineers will collaborate on the TF-X programme helping to support collaboration on the skills, technology and technical expertise required to deliver the programme." http://www.baesystems.com/en/article/bae-systems-signs-heads-of-agreement-for-a-future-contract-with-turkish-aerospace-industries-for-tf-x-programme If anyone has information to prove this is overwhelmingly a Turkish project they are encouraged to post it here before editing. STKS91 (talk) 00:02, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

I've removed it, again. No one is disputing UK involvement, but it doesn't rise to the level national origin, which usually means prime contractors in both countries. We also don't usually don't count engine providers, as the engines are covered separately in their own articles. A comparable example is the AIDC F-CK-1 Ching-kuo, which has heavy involvement by US companies, but the US isn't included in the national origin field, and shouldn't be. - BilCat (talk) 00:26, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

UK is not a nation of origin. Because; Buying engineering support is a common thing and it doesn't mean that BAE nor UK have any rights on the aircraft. There are around 150 BAE engineers involved in the project and they are only there to support not to design.Rolls-Royce engine deal is long gone.

It's overwhelmingly Turkish because like I said before, this is not a joint venture and project rights belongs to the TAI, there are 150 British engineers and a thousand Turkish engineers in the project if you want numbers. ŞeyhMuşmula (talk) 01:56, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Which Engine?

While an agreement is signed with Eurojet engine manufacturer in 2015, which seems final, other parties are still vying for this engine as of 2018. EJ200 link says it is the engine of choice, and then says it was not chosen. Can someone clear this up? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.247.165.26 (talk) 14:27, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

First flight date.

First flight on 2023 or 2030? Nafis Fuad Ayon (talk) 05:23, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

Per WP:CRYSTAL, I've removed them from the infobox and lead. No person can say that a rollout will happen in 2 years on a specific date, even a chief executive. Things happen. BilCat (talk) 10:33, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

It's 2025, CEO himself announced it few weeks ago. But someone named shadow.. something keeps editing the page as "it is delayed to 2030s" with secondary sources who use old information and apperantly CEO's words are not as valuable as a UAE funded England centred anti-Turkey propaganda news website to him. I can not undue his edita anymore as it became something called edit battle. I'm writing here and hoping someone would do something about it. ŞeyhMuşmula (talk) 02:01, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Title change to TAI-MMU

Main firm of the aircraft is calling the aircraft TAI - MMU (Milli Muharip Uçak - National War Plane Or National Fighter Plane)

https://www.tusas.com/urunler/yeni-projeler/ozgun/mmu

https://www.ssb.gov.tr/Website/ContentList.aspx?PageID=362 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.230.183.184 (talk)

No. It's still called the TF-X in English per the TAI's own website. Further, reliable, published English-language sources still use TF-X, and that still makes it the WP:COMMONNAME. BilCat (talk) 19:22, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Pakistani involvement

It is reported on the Wikipedia page of the Pakistan aeronautical complex that they have agreed to cancel project azm and assist in this venture with turkey leading the way. Therefore Pakistan should have its involvement acknowledged on this page.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_Aeronautical_Complex 80.5.199.172 (talk) 07:01, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

The page does not say that they working on TAI TF-X, can you give me a quote?Shadow4dark (talk) 07:31, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

TF vs TF-X

Is it time to delete the "X"? "Turkish Aerospace refers to this program as the Turkish Fighter (TF) and exclude the “X” at the end of its title with an emphasis that it is no longer an Experimental aircraft," writes Defence Turkey 46.31.112.214 (talk) 05:53, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

So what do you expect to be written? "Turkish Fighter non-experimental"? No, its prototype process will last to 2028 and have 9 prototypes and most probably name will be known as TF-X till starting of serial production. Gajlsi (talk) 01:36, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

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Rename article to TAI Kaan

All reference to the TF-X developmental name has been removed from its page on the Turkish Aerospace Industries official website. https://www.tusas.com/en/products/new-projects/original-development/tf 12.188.140.146 (talk) 22:00, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Link mistakes

I have made some mistakes in the references part, cant revert it. Please take a look and revert my changes. 95.2.9.96 (talk) 09:32, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Remove BAE Systems from lede

"It is being developed by Turkish Aerospace Industries and the sub-contractor BAE systems"

The contract TAI signed with BAE is worth $125 million while developing a 5th gen fighter costs tens of billions of dollars. Besides, it ignores all the other subcontractors of TAI like TUSAS, TRMOTOR, Aselsan, Roketsan and most likely bunch of other companies, some of these being bigger partners than BAE.

Plus, some users use this to try to make the page sound like it's a joint venture between TAI and BAE, which it isn't. (You can see the edit warring in the edit history.)

If there is no objection I will either remove BAE systems from the lede, or add the major sub-contractors. 88.230.179.144 (talk) 17:39, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

It appears to me that the IP above has a legitimate point. I suggest that people discuss it, rather than attempting to exclude the IP. [1][2] AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:59, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

You can't remove BAE Systems, as BAE Systems is not just another subcontractor like TUSAS, TRMOTOR, Aselsan, Roketsan but a crucial partner. The BAE Systems press-release [3] notes that - "In the presence of The Prime Ministers of Turkey and the United Kingdom, BAE Systems and Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) today signed a Heads of Agreement to collaborate on the first development phase of an indigenous fifth-generation fighter jet for the Turkish Air Force – TF-X. BAE Systems Chief Executive Ian King, speaking on the occasion, also confirms that [4] - "The announcement signals an exciting next step in relations between both Turkey and the UK with the cooperation between BAE Systems and TAI paving the way for a deeper defence partnership. The agreement confirms ongoing collaborative work on the design and development of the aircraft.” Turkish state run news agency Anadolu Agency also confirms that it's a collaboration [5]. Other leading sources like the FlightGlobal (link-[6]) and Aviation International News (link - [7]) also confirms that BAE Systems is a partner. So I think it is more appropriate to change the content in lead to "...all-weather air superiority fighter in developed by Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) in partnership with BAE systems" as noted by FlightGlobal and Aviation International News (links provided above) or to this, as my previous edit [8] - "developed between TAI and BAE Systems" - which is explicitly stated in this source (The Daily Telegraph) [9]. Regards FoxtAl (talk) 01:04, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Clearly, a BAE Systems press release, and an interview with their CEO, is going to emphasise their own role in the project. And I don't think the IP was denying that BAE was heavily involved. The question the IP seems to be asking though is whether it is appropriate to single BAE out, when there are multiple other subcontractors also involved. And I'd be wary of using sources from 2015 or 2017 for statements about a project still under development almost a decade later. Which seems to leave us with the Telegraph as the only source that describes the current situation. Perhaps we should see what the IP has to say though, and look for more sources. From a very quick Google, the few I've looked at that are recent seem not to be placing any obvious emphasis on BAE's role, though I've by no means done an exhaustive search. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:14, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

"whether it is appropriate to single BAE out, when there are multiple other subcontractors also involved." - See, BAE is not just another subcontractor. As I've stated, rather BAE is a partner in its development as noted by FlightGlobal [10] and Aviation International News [11]. What they stated in 2015 and 2017 is what Telegraph is reaffirming |here. Also I don't agree with this argument that - "And I'd be wary of using sources from 2015 or 2017 for statements about a project still under development almost a decade later" - that simply doesn't make any sense! If all editors consider so, half of the each Wikipedia articles would go. See, constructing history, we need these sources, they can't be avoided them because they are published nearly a decade ago!. Also, these are published by highly reputed, reliable military related sources with no known partiality! FoxtAl (talk) 05:39, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Many vague statements. Define "crucial" with just a contract of $125 million. Where is it involved in exactly?

TUSAS/TRMOTOR is building the engine, it doesn't get more crucial than this:

https://www.trhaber.com/savunma/kaan-ucak-motorunun-maliyeti-belli-oldu-tei-genel-muduru-acikladi-h450640.html

"Design studies for the domestic engine that will power the National Combat Aircraft KAAN are continuing. When the work carried out in cooperation with TEI (TUSAS) and TRMotor is completed, Turkey will have a jet engine with 5th generation features."

Head of the company states that the cost of the project for the engine will be at least 3 to 5 billion dollars. Significantly more than a $125 million contract.

Aselsan is building the radars and more:

https://www.defensehere.com/tr/milli-muharip-ucak-kaanda-kullanilan-aselsan-sistemleri

Encrypted Communication, Recognition-Introduction, Data Link, Three Dimensional Internal Communication, Ground and Satellite Based Approach, Navigation, Spare Flight Indicator, TULGAR Helmet Mounted Display Unit, Infrared Search and Track, Integrated Electro-Optical Targeting, Infrared Missile Warning and Imaging, Laser Warning, Directed Infrared Countermeasure, Guidance Kits, Flight Control System Sensors, Integrated Electronic Warfare, AESA Nose Radar, Countermeasures.

Either of these companies are much more involved in the project and much bigger partners than BAE. 78.174.64.40 (talk) 09:52, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Also, in the link you posted, it says:

"If confirmed as partner, BAE will join the Turkish team for four years, and following this development phase, Ankara plans to roll out its TFX aircraft in 2023. The type is expected to enter service with the nation’s air force in 2030."

The above news is from 2015.

It seems that the contract may very well have run its course. And that would put BAE in minor subcontractors in the initial development phase. 78.174.64.40 (talk) 10:00, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

FoxtAl, I suggested we look for more sources. I didn't ask you to post the same ones again. As for those sources, The 2015 FlightGlobal piece states that "If confirmed as partner, BAE will join the Turkish team for four years". "If", "four years". It isn't even a source for the partnership being confirmed, never mind one for it being ongoing in 2024. The 2017 Aviation International News article at least confirms that a deal was made. A 2023 FlightGlobal article on the Kaan however makes no mention of BAE. Instead it states that "Notably, the twin-engined aircraft was developed and produced almost entirely at home, with the Turkish government claiming the aircraft is roughly 80% domestically sourced" (archive link [12]). This is why I'm asking for additional more recent sources. BAE was clearly involved in the early design process, but to what extent are they a more significant partner now than other subcontractors? The Telegraph piece (archive link [13]) is more than a little ambiguous on this point, since it states that "The Kaan was developed between Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) and Britain’s BAE Systems, as part of a $125 million (£100 million) deal signed in 2017". Given that (according to our article at least), the Turkish government had assigned $1.18 bn back in 2015 for development of the project and related technology, a $125 million contract doesn't strike me as being so obviously dominant as to justify the emphasis proposed for the lede. Not without further recent sources making the same emphasis, and/or indicating that BAE have any ongoing role in development and/or production. AndyTheGrump (talk) 10:08, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Well, whatever the role BAE Systems played in this, it could be a serious/crucial job. Thats why almost all sources mention them and not TRMOTOR, Aselsan, Roketsan, etc. Here, I found a few sources, all states, the same thing "Turkish aerospace firm TAI signed a deal with Britain’s BAE Systems worth $125 million in 2017 to develop the next-generation fighter jet." -[14] (EurAsian times), [15] (Reuters), [16] (Turkish minute) - all are from Feb, 2024. So, BAE Systems is not just a subcontractor like TRMOTOR, Aselsan, Roketsan etc. Combine this with the Telegraph news from 2024 I posted earlier. It's pretty much apparent BAE Systems is a development partner as stated explicitly in the said source. FoxtAl (talk) 13:24, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

And did you find those sources by looking for coverage of the Kaan generally, or just for those that mentioned BAE? There seem to be quite a few recent sources giving relatively in-depth coverage of the Kaan that make no mention of BAE. [17][18][19][20] AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:42, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

@AndyTheGrump: your choice of sources says your editor's bias. You cited two blog like sources and Turkish official mouthpieces over reputed sources I provided here, including Reuters. Did you find those sources by looking for 'in-depth' coverage of the Kaan that made no mention of BAE? :D FoxtAl (talk) 17:56, 21 March 2024 (UTC)