Talk:Gonzalo Lira

Unreliable sources?

Some sources cited in the article seem questionable:

• This source is used as a reference for his degree, book and claim to be a developer on Soldier of Fortune. It seems to be for a blog and podcast - these are not generally accepted as they fall under WP:SPS.
• His entry on IMdb - fails WP:IMDB
• IMdb entry for film Secuestro - again fails WP:IMDB
• a blog - fails WP:SPS. Also mentions "HE WALL STREET JOURNAL, which is a link to the home page of the site and does not link to the Wall Street Journal, which makes the reliability look questionable too
• The Rio Times - not clear at all that this is a WP:RS - in fact it embeds one of his videos and the text seems to be based on that, so more WP:SPS, probably not reliable.
• Ridus.ru is described on Ridus as containing both editorial and user submitted content - thus failing WP:SPS and also its writing quickly drifted closer to government opinion; the publication is now largely seen as a propaganda outlet of the Russian state - which suggests that it should be regarded as unreliable and also discussed on WP:RSN.
• This article lists the byline as Gonzalo Lira, Rusia, Ucrania , so fails WP:RS as it is quoting Lira himself.
• This Telegram posting from Scott Ritter fails points 2(claims about third parties) and 3(involves claims about events not directly related to the source) of WP:SOCIALMEDIA.

Autarch (talk) 22:44, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

The Business Insider is also a WP:CIRCULAR as it refers back to the Wikipedia page. BeŻet (talk) 16:33, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, I'd missed that.Autarch (talk) 20:01, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

I think some of the usages of these sources have been cleaned up.

As a youtuber, most of the best information about this guy seems to be from youtube itself.

e.g, here is a

2 part documentary about him for those wondering about his background:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kurfNa0z4Ic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoNDwOHwtxc

There have been some reliable sources who have written about his detainment, but I think he may potentially end up in danger of Wikipedia:1EVENT. Cononsense (talk) 01:23, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

Article should not be in past tense

Why is this article written in the past tense? We don't even know if he was kidnapped, let alone if he's dead. The man should be presumed to be alive until we know otherwise. "Gonzalo Ángel Quintilio Lira López (born 29 February 1968), also known by the pseudonym Coach Red Pill, was a Chilean-American novelist,..." 76.202.192.102 (talk) 22:51, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

This sadly seems to be overtaken by events (he's dead now, while in SBU custody) Ryan (talk) 13:21, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

I just realized you posted this back in April 2022. He is dead now. The State Department and his father confirmed it. NesserWiki (talk) 00:30, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

“Was”

“Coach RedPill was…..”

Seeing as it hasn’t been confirmed he’s dead shouldn’t it say ‘is’ - Coach RedPill is…

HardeeHar (talk) 06:13, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

I would tend to agree, although I am not sure about the technicalities involved in how to go about this. We have a highly competent source who is citing reports that Lira was killed by the Kraken Unit of the Azov Battalion. While this is not a confirmation, it is also not leaving much room for doubt. Havradim leaf a message 06:37, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

I don't think what you're citing is of any use here. Scott Ritter has clarified that he has no direct evidence, so I'm not sure that anything he said makes those reports more plausible. A person may be extremely competent, but they cannot turn rumor into fact through mere repetition. Jml7c5 (talk) 09:17, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

In my opinion it is better to wait for reliable info. Mhorg (talk) 13:23, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

Scott Ritter is not a competent source, he was denying the Bucha Massacre - it's a fringe source. BeŻet (talk) 16:20, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

No, he didn't deny Bucha Massacre. He said that he thinks that Ukrainians did it. Maybe next time listen to him more carefully. 2A01:114F:72A:100:ECF8:C625:6C3F:D365 (talk) 23:53, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

Look at the pot calling the kettle black.

YOU are drowning in propaganda and calling other sources propaganda because your 'source' told you so.

I Found RT to be FAR MORE factuals than ALL western MSMS, as a canadian that can VERIFY some story. 74.15.206.158 (talk) 10:16, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Suggest deletion of unsourced material

The entire last paragraph of the Biography section (starting "In 2017, Lira was active on social networks") is completely unsourced, except for one reference at the end to an opinion article on The Daily Beast, which does not come close to meeting normal Wikipedia reliable-source criteria. Unless adequate reliable sources can be cited for this material, I suggest it should be removed completely. Longitude2 (talk) 09:46, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

I added a second source, which despite ref'ing the dailybeast, seemed to have done their own investigation of the content of lira's videos, because they reported things the db article did not. The article also mentioned they looked at Lira's telegram account, where he had been posting covid related info. Cononsense (talk) 16:42, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

He isn't missing

https://youtube.com/watch?v=R2yeSOcNlgE — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:4C8:444:FEEB:B4F5:7B8C:FC90:CC9C (talk) 10:14, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

Thanks anon user. Summary: he was taken from the SBU (Ukrainian secret service) and his cell phone and computer were taken away. Furthermore, he cannot leave Kharkiv for now. Mhorg (talk) 10:27, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

There is zero proof, zero proof that Lira was "taken by the SBU" other than Lira's own words (which is not a reliable source as per Wiki reliable-source criteria). I am deleting that part for several reasons: 1) No proof to support the claims, 2) He is alive and thus making that part of the page completely irrelevant. For all we know, Lira was hiding from Russia's bombing. BetsyRMadison (talk) 12:27, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

@BetsyRMadison we say what RS are saying and they say --> Cyprus Mail - The citizen-journalist said he was picked up by the SBU (Ukraine’s Security Service) on April 15 – the day all contact was lost with him, with many of his followers fearing the worst. - you can’t do your WP:OR demanding a prove. We follow RS's GizzyCatBella🍁 13:08, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

"Journalist"

There's not enough sources describing him as a "journalist", therefore we shouldn't describe him as such. He's primarily a YouTuber who happened to be in Ukraine during the conflict and posted some videos about it. BeŻet (talk) 11:39, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

We go what RS say. Do not remove sourced information - GizzyCatBella🍁 12:12, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

Stop bolding text unnecessarily. Please show me several good quality sources referring to him as a journalist. BeŻet (talk) 12:16, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

Stop removing sources as you did here. --> [1] - GizzyCatBella🍁 12:17, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

I told you already, stop bolding text like that, it's rude. BeŻet (talk) 12:19, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

I didn’t mean to be rude. - GizzyCatBella🍁 12:21, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

I forgive you. Could we please identify which sources describe him as a journalist as I'm not convinced this is backed up by a lot of good quality sources? BeŻet (talk) 12:24, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

There is a RS describing him as a journalist. You clam he is not. So find a source that specifically says "Lira is not a journalist" - GizzyCatBella🍁 12:29, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

I'm saying that there aren't many high quality sources describing him as such. It's silly to expect a source that says "Lira is not a journalist". You say that he's described as a "citizen-journalist" which further implies he's not a real journalist. I personally think this label should not be applied so liberally. BeŻet (talk) 14:28, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

I registered another source describing his as Journalist -->[2] - GizzyCatBella🍁 12:38, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

Gizzy, I agree with @BeŻet: both your sources are the same source, "Mendovoz.com" which is not a reliable source. So far, you've given no reliable source to support the claim that he's a 'journalist.' I feel keeping that 'journalist' claim on the page misleading and should be removed. BetsyRMadison (talk) 12:47, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

No, you are mistaken. The second source is Cyprus Mail from Nicosia that describe his as citizen-journalist -->[3] - GizzyCatBella🍁 13:02, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

@BetsyRMadison GizzyCatBella🍁 13:03, 23 April 2022 (UTC) quote from Cyprus Mail - The citizen-journalist said he was picked up by the SBU (Ukraine’s Security Service) on April 15 – the day all contact was lost with him, with many of his followers fearing the worst.

Your source, Cyprus Mail, calls him a "vlogger" not a "journalist" which is your claim. A vlogger is someone who uploads videos of his or her own life rather than writing about it. A journalist writes, vloggers youtube. He's a youtuber. He's not a journalist. @BeŻet: is 100% correct. BetsyRMadison (talk) 13:23, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

@BetsyRMadison Look at the quote above from Cyprus Mail and check the source. They call him citizen-journalist for Christ sake. Stop with that already please. GizzyCatBella🍁 13:30, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

@BetsyRMadison I’ll quote it for you again in bold - The citizen-journalist said he was picked up by the SBU (Ukraine’s Security Service) on April 15 – the day all contact was lost with him, with many of his followers fearing the worst. - and here is the link for you to confirm that --->[4] - GizzyCatBella🍁 13:33, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

You use him as your "source" and there is no reliable source to support any of his allegations about SBU. The last 3 paragraphs should be are UNDUE and are not supported by reliable sources. Last 3 paragraphs should be removed because Wiki prohibits using wiki to peddle in conspiracy theories. BetsyRMadison (talk) 14:02, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

Stop bolding text unnecessarily it is rude. To re-ask: please show us several good quality sources referring to him as a journalist. A journalist writes, he vlogs. He uploads videos of himself, he does not write. @BeŻet: is correct, your 'journalist' claim is not backed up by good quality sources. "Staff writer" at "Cyprus Mail" is not a reliable source. BetsyRMadison (talk) 13:48, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

That’s not my claims. I follow RS's and you have plenty of them in the article were he is refereed to as Journalist. - GizzyCatBella🍁 13:59, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

It is your claim and your claim is not supported by any reliable source. Not only that, I feel you've started an "edit war" that's causing wiki to peddle unfounded conspiracy theories that you keep adding in. @BeŻet: has much more experience on here than I do, so I would like BeŻet to check out the article's "View History" and let me know if they think you're starting an edit war to promote unfounded conspiracy theories, because I think you are. BetsyRMadison (talk) 14:11, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

Stop personal attacks please, discuss content and do not remove sources - GizzyCatBella🍁 14:17, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

"Lira’s disappearance received scant Western media coverage and was mostly reported by Asian, African and South American news outlets."

It's not surprising that a little known YouTuber doesn't get much coverage. This is not notable or worth mentioning in the article. BeŻet (talk) 12:09, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

You already nominated this article for deletion so we don’t need to hear your repeated opinions that he is “little" known. Almost 50.000 view of this page in 48 hour proved you were mistaken. - GizzyCatBella🍁 12:20, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

That's not a lot of views. Please address the comment directly - it's completely undue to mention "scant Western media coverage", and it's WP:NPOV. BeŻet (talk) 12:25, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

There is nothing undue about it. We report what RS are saying and Cyprus Mail is a reliable source. Your personal opinion has been heard already but it is inaccurate. - GizzyCatBella🍁 12:27, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

Gizzy, @BeŻet: is correct, it is undue and therefore the last 3 paragraphs should be removed. Short list of why it's Undue 1) His 'self-published' comments he made on "the Duran" youtube is not a reliable source; 2) Even the Cyprus Mail article confirms millions of Ukrainians can't be located (missing) because they're hiding from Russian bombardment so him being one of millions does not confirm the "scant" coverage claim. 3) He is not missing. 4) Most importantly, there is no reliable source to confirm any of Lira's claims of where he was. Lira's 'self-published' claims is not a reliable source as per Wiki. BetsyRMadison (talk) 13:14, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

I personally think his disappearance was staged but BetsyRMadison - we still need too follow what RS say, regardless of our personal opinion about the person. Remember how it all started. BeŻet claimed he is not notable at all and nominated the page for deletion, which is clear now to be a huge mistake. Please do not follow the same path with what might appear to some as an attempt of suppressing the information about the fellow.. - GizzyCatBella🍁 13:24, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

It's clear now to be a huge mistake - what? I still think the article should be deleted as he hasn't received enough widespread coverage. Nobody has proven me wrong. BeŻet (talk) 14:23, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

We know you think the article should be deleted, this was clear from the very beginning and has been noted. However numerous (almost all) editors do not agree with your evaluation --> [5] - GizzyCatBella🍁 14:29, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

I agree with @BeŻet:. The article should be removed. As it right now, the article is riddled in peddling unfounded conspiracy theories. And if you're not going to delete the article, then at the very least, the unfounded conspiracy theories you're added, which are not supported by any RS, must be removed. BetsyRMadison (talk) 14:33, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

@BetsyRMadison Please voice your opinion at the deletion page. - GizzyCatBella🍁 14:47, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

There is no RS to support your 'journalist' claim. The last 3 paragraphs are misleading, undue, peddle unfounded conspiracies, and should be removed. Example: you misleadingly wrote: "Chilean embassies and consulates worldwide acquired hundreds of thousands of calls with questions about Lira’s fate." When the truth is: Moscow native, Alex Christoforou, who runs the pro-Russian "The Duran" blog made the claim and there is no reliable source to supports his claim. If you insist on adding that unfounded claim, then you must include that it came from Alex Christoforou. BetsyRMadison (talk) 14:29, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

@BetsyRMadison you are welcome challenge the reliability of the given sources at the appropriate board but for now please do not remove them. They are reliable as of now. - GizzyCatBella🍁 14:31, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

The problem, regarding "scant Western media coverage", is not around reliability of sources, but WP:UNDUE and WP:NPOV. And I'm asking you one final time to not bold text. BeŻet (talk) 14:36, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

You've been told to stop bolding text unnecessarily because it is rude, yet you keep doing it. You have no RS. None. And, I feel you started an "edit war." I will remove and/or reword the conspiracy theories you keep adding. BetsyRMadison (talk) 14:36, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

Well, if you remove RS again you might be reported. Just to let you know. - GizzyCatBella🍁 14:43, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

Interesting... you, GizzyCat, started an "edit war" and now you threaten people who tell you they're going to clean up the unfounded conspiracy theories you keep adding. hmmm... BetsyRMadison (talk) 14:48, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

I don’t appreciate your attitude towards me. Once again, please discuss content. - GizzyCatBella🍁 14:51, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

@ BetsyRMadison and BeŻet Can you two show me a policy that prohibits bolding of the text please? - GizzyCatBella🍁 14:45, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

Gizzy, You threatened to report me because I told you "I will remove and/or reword the conspiracy theories you keep adding." Your threats violate wiki's talk page WP:TALKNO policy "Personal threats: For example, threatening people with "admins [you] know" or with having them banned for disagreeing with you." Also you keep WP:SHOUTING (via bold text) even after BeZet and told you that your bold text shouting at us is rude. In short, shouting and threating people goes against WP Talkpage guidelines. BetsyRMadison (talk) 15:57, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Please don't shout and WP:SHOUT. BeŻet (talk) 11:28, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

Quote (WP:SHOUT) - Bolding may be used to highlight key words or phrases - Thank you and please stop this off topic exchange, I have no time nor desire to continue talking about text bolding with you two. GizzyCatBella🍁 13:12, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

Stop talking like a colonialist, BeZet. Asian, African, and South American count. And Gonzalo Lira is an important Chilean-American YouTuber with a huge following.Myatrrcc (talk) 04:55, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Cyprus Mail at RSN

I've started a RSN discussion on the use of the Cyprus Mail here.--Ermenrich (talk) 13:29, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

Source misrepresentation

BetsyRMadison - With this edit [6] it appears that you might have misrepresented the source.

You wrote, (in bold green is yours):

The Cyprus Mail quoted Moscow native, Alex Christoforou, who claimed that Chilean embassies and consulates worldwide acquired "hundreds of thousands of calls" with questions about Lira’s fate. However, when Cyprus Mail contacted the Consulate of Chile in Nicosia, the Honorary Consul George Zachariades did not substantiate Christoforou's claim and would only confirm that he had "no information on Lira’s whereabouts.

Full quote from the source:

Earlier on Friday, and while Lira was still missing, the Cyprus Mail had contacted the Consulate of Chile in Nicosia. At the time Honorary Consul George Zachariades said he had no information on Lira’s whereabouts.

He had tried to contact the Chilean consulate in Kiev, but to no avail.

Alex Christoforou, co-host of The Duran, told the Cyprus Mail that during the seven days of silence Chilean embassies and consulates around the world had received “hundreds of thousands of calls and messages” asking about Lira’s fate. --> [7]

You misrepresented:

• Source says nothing about quoted Moscow native
• Source says nothing about Honorary Consul George Zachariades did not substantiate Christoforou's claim about the phone calls.

I’m inviting you to correct that please. Thank you. - GizzyCatBella🍁 21:23, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

@GizzyCatBella: Everything I posted in my edit is 100% accurate. For example: 1) The Cyprus Mail did, in fact, quote Moscow native, Alex Christoforou, who did claim that Chilean embassies and consulates worldwide acquired "hundreds of thousands of calls" with questions about Lira’s fate. 2) And when Cyprus Mail contacted the Consulate of Chile in Nicosia, the Honorary Consul George Zachariades did not substantiate Christoforou's claim and would only confirm that he had "no information on Lira’s whereabouts. Unless you can show me any part of the article that you think says Christoforou's allegations were substantiated by the Consulate of Chile; then your accusations of me 'misrepresenting' the article is completely unfounded. BetsyRMadison (talk) 14:36, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

That might be true or might be not. We don’t know. All we know that the information you added was not present in this particular source (see above). What you have done seems to be WP:OR = misrepresenting source. Pay attention to things like that. - GizzyCatBella🍁 14:46, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

@GizzyCatBella: my edits are not "original research" because all my edits are easily verifiable within the article. In the Cyprus Mail article I read, the Consulate of Chile did not substantiate Christoforou's allegations and only said, "he had no information on Lira’s whereabouts." BetsyRMadison (talk) 15:23, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

You wrote "the Consulate of Chile did not substantiate Christoforou's allegations". But he didn't deny them either, which is what you were implying by your edit.

And the fact that you're pointing out that I'm only editing this article is a way to disqualify the edits I've made. I've been editing off-and-on since 2007. I got interested in this guy, and decided to edit the incredibly lopsided entry. I got it into fairly decent shape. Please don't let your personal dislike for this person make this an unpleasant experience for people who are trying to help. Thank you. Dorfpert (talk) 16:17, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

@Dorfpert: According to Wiki, your first comment ever on wiki is today. And all your comments are only on this one person [8] and here [9]. BetsyRMadison (talk) 17:09, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

Russian Foreign Ministry Mentions Lira

"MOSCOW (UrduPoint News / Sputnik - 21st April, 2022) The Russian Foreign Ministry's spokeswoman said on Thursday she hoped that Chilean journalist Gonzalo Lira Lopez, who disappeared in Kharkiv after criticizing Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, was alive and well.

Maria Zakharova said the journalist provided on-the-ground coverage of the Russian military operation in Ukraine, first from the capital of Kiev and then from the eastern city of Kharkiv, drawing the attention of the Ukrainian security service and the notorious Azov battalion.

"We sincerely hope that... Gonzalo and his family are doing well," Zakharova wrote on Telegram.

The Chilean Foreign Ministry told Sputnik on Thursday that it was investigating the whereabouts of its national. The 54-year-old has not been heard from since last Friday when he posted about "Zelensky regime" on social media."

From UrduPoint, https://www.urdupoint.com/en/world/russian-foreign-ministry-hopes-chilean-journa-1500509.html

If being singled out by the Russian Foreign Ministry does not make a person notable, what does? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.86.220.212 (talk) 23:07, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

"Sputnik" is not a reliable source and neither is "Telegram." As editors, we must be very cautious to avoid unrealiable sources and to avoid promoting unfounded conspiracy theories. BetsyRMadison (talk) 14:44, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

She made a statement on her official, verified Telegram channel, and it was republished by several reputable news sources. A simple Google search shows that. This is a spurious objection. Dorfpert (talk) 15:31, 24 April 2022 (UTC) ----<--- — Dorfpert (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. BetsyRMadison (talk) 15:49, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

Zakharova made plenty misleading/biased/propaganda statements, and in the context of russia-ukraine war Russian officials are far from being reliable sources. Not to say taht Zakharova did not provide the source of her informatuon, so that it can be independently verified. Loew Galitz (talk) 21:27, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Categories

Lira was in all sorts of categories that diluted the categories. Expressing a view does not equate with being an activist. Also he is no longer missing, ergo he shouldn't be categorized as missing. --Dorfpert (talk) 15:12, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

I agree. He is certainly not missing, so that category was removed. Since he is an American citizen of Chilean descent, I am going to remove some of the very Chile specific categories, as there are just too many. I will check if WP:MOS has anything to say about "over categorization" as they do about over-cites and other overdoing things.--FeralOink (talk) 22:00, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

"Daily Beast" article not reliable source

So the following has been inserted several times:

Lira posted videos with titles such as "Never Date a Woman in her Thirties" and argued that all women really only want money.

The Daily Beast is referenced as the source.

Problem is, Lira never posted a video with that name (I checked on YT, Rumble and BitChute). And the line "[He] argued that all women really only want money" is not a direct quote from him. In fact it's really just a smear.

That's why I've removed it consistently.--Dorfpert (talk) 19:21, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

@Dorfpert: What you have done seems to be WP:OR. The source says "“Never date a woman in her thirties,” Lira, who’s in his fifties, said in one video created in 2020." Wiki editors have to state what the source says. I realize that this is your 2nd day of editing and this is the only topic you've edited. But you really need to pay attention to adhere to wiki's rules [10] BetsyRMadison (talk) 20:00, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Should we post obvious lies? I don't think so.

You like it or not, The Daily Beast writer told an easily verifiable lie about Lira. He never posted any video with such a title.

And you're using Wikipedia's rules as a shield so as to post innuendo, insofar as the line "[He] argued that all women really only want money" is concerned. That's an opinion/smear, and not a direct quote from Lira.

I've said it before, your personal animus towards this subject is not allowing you to see the situation objectively.

Or perhaps you don't want to be objective? Perhaps you have a partisan agenda you are trying to push here? Honest question, please answer. Dorfpert (talk) 20:22, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

I checked on YT, Rumble and BitChute. Just because something is no longer there, does not mean that it never existed. Please read WP:BRD and WP:NOTTRUTH. "Daily Beast" article not reliable source. The problem with that is the DB is one of the pillars currently holding up this article in WP namespace, an article under threat of deletion. We cannot have it both ways. While I would discount any bias that they may have, such as repeating that others called Lira "sleazy" and a "shill", the excised sentence was a simple statement of fact, and should be reinstated. See WP:NOTCENSORED. Havradim leaf a message 20:27, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

@Havradim: You are absolutely correct. BetsyRMadison (talk) 20:33, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

@Dorfpert: from wiki, "Do not make personal attacks anywhere on Wikipedia. Comment on content, not on the contributor." [11]. Also, wiki prohibits original research, which is what you've done. I feel you would benefit if you read WP:PILLARS [12] BetsyRMadison (talk) 20:37, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

@Dorfpert: You've misread the source. The sources doesn't say it was the title of the video (so maybe that's why you couldn't find it in your original research). Re-read what the source says "Never date a woman in her thirties,” Lira, who’s in his fifties, said in one video created in 2020." BetsyRMadison (talk) 20:41, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

According to the article, In November 2021, Lira deleted most of his CRP content and began posting under his legal name. So, whether or not the video is currently publicly accessible is immaterial to this discussion. Havradim leaf a message 20:47, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Can only concur with what others have written. We can't claim that he's notable based on the Daily Beast then remove everything the article says about him.--Ermenrich (talk) 21:03, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

@Havradim: and @Ermenrich: you both make excellent points. BetsyRMadison (talk) 21:07, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Personal Life: The genealogy claims are not supported by the questionable sourced used

I removed @Dorfpert: edit that claimed, "Lira is a direct descendant of José Miguel Carrera, the first president of Chile, and Ignacio de la Carrera, who signed the first declaration of independence of Chile." The questionable source that Dorfbert used does not say that. So Dorfpert's claim is not supported.
Yesterday is the first day Dorfpert edited on wikipedia, this topic is the only topic Dorfpert has edited, and Dorfpert has gone over the WP:3RR limit [13]. To avoid Dorfpert unwittingly starting an edit war, Dorfbert should stop reverting and explain on this page why he/she thinks his/her questionable source makes that claim. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BetsyRMadison (talk • contribs) 22:45, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

@Dorfpert here -->[14] it seems that its WP:OR of yours - GizzyCatBella🍁 23:59, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

No it's not. I went by what appeared in his wiki in other languages, where the first gen. To find confirmation, I googled "descendientes de jose miguel carrera" (a google translation, since I figured there be more hits in Spanish than English), and the very first entry was of Chile's National Library with confirmation.

Again, I insist: There are personal reasons why people are so adamant about diminishing this guy. Looking on the previous version of this entry that was deleted in 2014, it's clear it was brigaded into being deleted by people who really hated his guts.

I personally think he's a lolcow, but I have to be objective. He's notable, he's done some notable stuff, whether people like it or not. Trying to weasel this away is just sad. Dorfpert (talk) 06:26, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Can you quote from the source Lira is a direct descendant of José Miguel Carrera, the first president of Chile and link it here please - GizzyCatBella🍁 06:32, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Sure:

https://www.businessinsider.com/author/gonzalo-lira Dorfpert (talk) 08:18, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

@Dorfpert: your businessinsider link uses you as their source. You added it to wiki and then someone there put your wiki entry into your buisnessinsider link, meaning, you are their source; thus not Reliable Source for wiki.

You used 3 sources: your first 2 sources don't say what you claim & don't support your claim. Your 3rd source is you. You, and your entry at wiki, is your 3rd source.

I am deleting your entry. Do not revert it. You've gone over the WP:3RR limit, you've started an edit war, and you're doing WP:OR. BetsyRMadison (talk) 11:33, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Honest question, are you mental?[15] I did not write the BI link! lol

You've lost the plot because of your hatred of this person. I suggest you step away from this entry and go do something useful. Dorfpert (talk) 11:44, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

A gentle reminder that civility is part of the Wikipedia code of conduct and not to make personal attacks. Autarch (talk) 16:53, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

@Dorfpert What on earth are you doing? BI referenced that info to Wikipiedia. Which is you - GizzyCatBella🍁 11:46, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

@Dorfpert (see above[16]) Honest question, are you mental? Okay, now this is a personal attack. You better strike that Pal. - GizzyCatBella🍁 11:48, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

clearly Wikipedia:CIRCULAR, which is why I removed the content that referenced wikipedia in the first place.

furthermore, we should be wary of using Wikipedia:Bi as a RS for such content (as a primary source anyways), as especially back in 2010 [17], the site was kind of was a "collection of blogs". Cononsense (talk) 12:00, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

The Hatred For This Person Is Off The Charts!

I've said I think Lira is a lolcow. However, he IS notable. But there are people in this community who hate him beyond reason. They are nitpicking every little thing to get him smeared and/or removed. It's very funny! But I find it confusing.

I reviewed his previous entry, which was deleted in 2014. The same thing occurred. People brigaded the entry. They slowly stripped it of everything this person has actually done (all of which is noteworthy). They removed the fact that he was a published author. There was even one version where the editor removed the indisputable fact that he was a film director, and wrote under his picture while filming, "Lira holding a camera for some reason"! Then when the entry was picked clean, it was deleted.

It is clear to me that some people really hate this guy.

I go on this platform every 2 or 3 years for a while. I do it for fun, then lose interest, then I pick it up again. But I think I'll stay this time and monitor this entry. Because I think he's ridiculous, but this is unfair. And it defeats the purpose of Wikipedia, which is to present information about the world and the people in it. Whether we like them or not.

--Dorfpert (talk) 11:40, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

@Dorfpert: Your wiki history shows that 2 days ago you started editing on wiki and this is the only topic you've ever edited. You've gone over the WP:3RR limit, you've started an edit war [18], you've added WP:OR [19], you've not adhered to wiki voice, WP:NPOV [20]. Welcome to wiki; to help you get started on here, you should review WP:Pillars [21]. BetsyRMadison (talk) 12:09, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

At this point I’m suspicious that Dorfpert might have a WP:conflict of interest. He claims insider knowledge about Lira in making his pro-Lira edits…—Ermenrich (talk) 12:29, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

You are lying about me. I have never claimed insider knowledge of Lira. Show me where, or apologize. Dorfpert (talk) 12:31, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

When you correct what RS say on the basis of what you yourself say is correct, that looks like a claim of insider knowledge to me. Particularly as Lira deleted the stuff you are “correcting”. Do you have a COI you would like to disclose? I would at least suggest reading our policy before you continue editing this article.—Ermenrich (talk) 12:33, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

What I noticed was that Dorfpert had similar (including unsourced) edits to that of:

Special:Contributions/109.86.220.212

which happens to be geolocated to Kharkiv. Cononsense (talk) 15:00, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

@Cononsense: Does that mean Dorfpert is in Kharkiv? BetsyRMadison (talk) 15:11, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

I have no clue of that (and I have no way to tell). it would require an investigation of WP:SOCK.

What I noticed was that:

1. the contributions of Special:Contributions/109.86.220.212 seemed fairly "close to the subject" of this article.

2. that ip is clearly in Kharkiv. you can use the geolocate tool to verify

3. dorfpert and 109.86.220.212's edits are quite similar in nature in terms of content changed

So this is just my observation. Perhaps good for this person to view WP:PLAINSIMPLECOI Cononsense (talk) 15:27, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Importance of mentioning Lira's thoughts on arming civilians

The article currently contains the following text: During the Russian offensive toward Kyiv, Lira criticised the government of Volodymyr Zelenskyy for arming the local population with weapons when the Territorial Defense Forces was expanded, a move that Lira said caused a rise in crime. Lira did not provide any evidence to corroborate this allegation. Is this particular opinion about something that happened in the first weeks of the war WP:DUE on this page? I would suggest deleting it.--Ermenrich (talk) 14:47, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose - It provides a clue as to

one reason why the subject has been receiving so much attention. Unabashedly criticising a government at war on a public platform while simultaneously being subject to its jurisdiction is unusual. Havradim leaf a message 16:10, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

The only thing that has received any real attention is his supposed detention. His opinions are only covered by small outlets or Russian propaganda.--Ermenrich (talk) 16:31, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

@Havradim: Everyone is always 'subject to the jurisdiction' of where they visit or live so it's not "unusual" for Lira to be 'subject to the jurisdiction' of Ukraine while he's living in Ukraine. BetsyRMadison (talk) 16:57, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Being subject to one's own jurisdiction: Not unusual. Criticising a government on a public platform during a time of war: Not unusual. Living in a war zone: Somewhat unusual. Criticising a government on a public platform during a time of war while being subject to said government's jurisdiction: Unusual. (There is no need to ping me as I am watching this page.) Havradim leaf a message 17:18, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Havradim, ahh... thank you clarifying what you were calling unusual. I agree with you, that is unusual. :) BetsyRMadison (talk) 17:54, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

• Support. It should be deleted; especially since Lira "did not provide any evidence to corroborate his allegation." BetsyRMadison (talk) 16:59, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

  It was never about the evidence, but rather the subject's commentary itself, which was critical of Zelenskyy's government and the (ex-) criminals themselves, who presumably were now armed to the teeth and prowling around the subject's neighbourhood. Havradim leaf a message 17:39, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

  who presumably were now armed to the teeth and prowling around the subject's neighbourhood. I think you're making a lot of assumptions there. This isn't even what he's complaining about here: it's the arming of civilians as such - which was a frequently criticized talking point among Russian propagandists and not a particularly notable opinion.--Ermenrich (talk) 18:08, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

  Havradim, Even based on what you say, I feel it's WP:DUE, so it should be deleted. BetsyRMadison (talk) 18:18, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

• Support. As an opinion unrelated to his biography or this year's incident, that further has not evidence to support it, it should be removed. --NoonIcarus (talk) 07:55, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

References

A trivial business deal is noteworthy—but international attention for his disappearance is not?

This Steve Keen business is trivial. There's no allegation of wrongdoing, no lawsuit, no criminal complaint. How can this possibly be noteworthy enough to be included.

But disappearing for a week in a war zone while being mentioned on a dozen international news sites is NOT noteworthy?

Priorities, people, priorities. And don't let your hatred for the subject bias you. --Dorfpert (talk) 18:55, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

The only "international news sites" that have commented on it are Russian propaganda outlets or else small, English-language sites located in countries where the main language is not English. And no one has removed his so-called "disappearance." It's still there (at least until this article is hopefully deleted). What's been removed is the melodramatic bloat around the alleged event.--Ermenrich (talk) 21:03, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

Dorfpert raises a valid concern. The Keen bit does come off as a somewhat petty thing to include here. Content like this does get included all the time in articles, especially when there is not much else to go on. And it is also helpful when sourced content links to other articles. However, per WP:BLP: Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion. All agree that The Daily Beast is a questionable source, so until better sourcing can be found, I am highly skeptical that it should stay. Havradim leaf a message 00:21, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

I tend to agree that the Keen bit doesn't seem worthy of inclusion. As far as I know, nobody has covered that besides dailybeast, in all the years since it has happened. Perhaps if Lira's career as a economics pundit had been more well known or sustained. as far as I know, the notability there was concentrated around writing a few articles in the 2010-2012 timeframe that were republished on some aggregation websites.

I think comments by Maria Zakharova are more noteworthy. The Bulwark (website) (a center-right political commentary site, however, known for their factual accuracy) released an article about Lira this morning that provides more context around her comments relative to earlier articles than what sputnik said: https://www.thebulwark.com/the-redpill-grifter-who-became-an-anti-ukraine-propagandist-gonzalo-lira/ Cononsense (talk) 16:51, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

If we're including that, we should include the bit from the bulwark that it's been speculated that Lira staged his own disappearance. And maybe about his various anti-Semitic, misogynist, and anti-vax statements as well.--Ermenrich (talk) 17:31, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Besides the fact that the argument is a false equivalence (and furthermore a wrong one, since there is information about the subject's dissapearance), the included content talks about a personal project started with a notable economist, which is also related to the paragraph it is placed in. --NoonIcarus (talk) 09:07, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Keen - a business deal where he was locked out of his own commercial website; Suspension for Sexual Assault at Dartmouth; Failed "Show-biz, "rock star," type career tries as a director and novelist (1/100,000,000 odds of Being John Malkovich), constant Reinvention of himself, and attention getting. <-- Its the sum of its parts, the whole story here, the Bio of this Living Person. --- I listened to his recent podcasts (in which he claims he "signed a document with the SBU not to broadcast, yet he is still doing so - incredulous attention getting); he was talking about NGO's being an intelligence tool in the Ukraine fomenting anti-Russian sentiment. Here is an NPOV visit to pre-invasion Mariupol which speaks about NGO's pouring money into public infrastructure to improve a city that was environmentally degraded by pollution from legacy Soviet industry; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phnpmotMusE So yeah; NGO's pouring money into a place with historic environmental suffering essentially would inform folks that that things could be better and therefore lead to dissatisfaction. Propaganda usually starts from an element of truth; or can be largely true. Wikipedia describes propaganda quite accurately and its worthy of a look. Does this entry need to acknowledge that the subject is a propagandist (at best)? 71.203.10.104 (talk) 13:22, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

I think the article already does a good enough job of implying this without straying into WP:BLP violations. Havradim leaf a message 20:56, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

I thought the Keen deal coverage was WP:UNDUE. I kept it in the article, but truncated some of the details. I wouldn't have a problem if anyone wants to remove it entirely, as Steve Keen is somewhat marginal himself as far as notability.--FeralOink (talk) 23:19, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 27 April 2022

He might be better known as Coach Red Pill at least I knew of him for years as that before knowing his actual name, but recent media attention may be primarily what he's known for and not earlier activities and that may have made him become better known as Gonzalo Lira --Immanuelle (talk) 21:02, 02 May 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose Now he is best known as Gonzalo Lira and he himself dropped the red pill moniker. Loew Galitz (talk) 21:22, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
• Support Thinking about it, BLOGGER is the most fitting description of his vocation. He blogged in alt-finance, he blogged in the Man-o-sphere, and now he blogs Russian propaganda; and has been elevated to esteemed journalist by Pravda and other Russian outlets. A very nefarious reputation follows him across his life-story. Does "Being a Blogger" meet the standard of being Encyclopedic? 71.203.10.104 (talk) 02:26, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

  His notability (for the purposes of wikipedia) was debated here. Cononsense (talk) 02:44, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

  I am not speaking to him.. Just asking "if bloggers belong in an encyclopedia?" 71.203.10.104 (talk) 02:46, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

  Category:Bloggers. Havradim leaf a message 03:27, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose - While there are a lot more search engine hits for Coach Red Pill (CRP), many of them are false positives, or link to unreliable sources. This article is about the entirety of the subject's life, during most of which he was not known by this moniker. Loew Galitz is correct that Lira seems to have shelved the usage of CRP when he started newer channels under his legal name. Since he has chosen to use both names for his channels, it seems that the legal name carries more weight. Havradim leaf a message 03:27, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

  I agree. Having read that he was notable for reasons other than the Coach Red Pill blog and has stopped using it I think his legal name takes precedence. Immanuelle 💗 (please tag me) 04:39, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

  Perhaps "is a Chilean-American novelist" can be put in the body of the article - or authored x number of books in the body - Either as Coach Red Pill, or Surname, or Financially he has blogged for many years71.203.10.104 (talk) 12:15, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Suggest the First Sentence Be Changed

From

Gonzalo Lira López (born February 29, 1968) is a Chilean-American novelist,[2] film director, financial blogger, YouTuber, and commentator in the manosphere formerly known as Coach Red Pill. Being a resident of Kharkiv, Ukraine, he was in Kyiv at the onset of the 2022 Russian Invasion of Ukraine and started vlogging on the invasion from what has been described by The Daily Beast as a pro-Putin perspective.[3] In April 2022, Lira alleged that he was detained by the Security Service of Ukraine.[4]

Perhaps To:

Gonzalo Lira López (born February 29, 1968) is a Chilean-American blogger and YouTuber who has produced video and written content on an evolving list of topics to include "Russia's Invasion of the Ukraine," "The Man-O-Sphere" under the moniker of Coach Red Pill, and "Contrarian Economics." Being a resident of Kharkiv, Ukraine, he was in Kyiv at the onset of the 2022 Russian Invasion of Ukraine and started vlogging on the invasion from what has been described by The Daily Beast as a pro-Putin perspective.[3] In April 2022, Lira alleged that he was detained by the Security Service of Ukraine.[4]71.203.10.104 (talk) 13:20, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

PS the word used was "How a Sleazy American Dating Coach Became a Pro-Putin Shill in Ukraine" .. so the Daily Beast describes him as a Pro-Putin Shill which is stronger than a pro-Putin perspective and consistent with a person that is notable for being nefarious. 71.203.10.104 (talk) 13:46, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

per MOS:ROLEBIO:

The noteworthy position(s) or role(s) the person held should usually be stated in the opening paragraph. However, avoid overloading the lead paragraph with various and sundry roles; instead, emphasize what made the person notable. Incidental and non-noteworthy roles (i.e. activities that are not integral to the person's notability) should usually not be mentioned in the lead paragraph

imo, the "financial blogger" part can be removed, because there doesn't seem to be much in the way of secondary sources talking about that aspect of his work. To me, blogger isn't necessary since it mentions Youtuber. perhaps YouTube vlogger with YouTube wikilinked? Cononsense (talk) 20:09, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

It is fine the way it is. And YouTuber is an article. Havradim leaf a message 22:20, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

What is his primary vocation? In writing it is the Topic sentence. The article reads that he is primarily an author and filmmaker; when in fact they are long-past activities, the main idea (why people might be interested in him) relates to him blogging. 71.203.10.104 (talk) 23:04, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

We should not be looking at why he is currently popular, but how he will be known in the future. If anything, his books and films are more of the stuff of dusty library shelves than YouTube. Havradim leaf a message 00:06, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

I would agree... Youtube his focus. 71.203.10.104 (talk) 00:46, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

@Havradim: Lira is not "currently popular." He's just one more pro-Putin propagandist who's propaganda is replayed on Russia-state-owned propaganda outlets. He made unsubstantiated allegations about himself to

gain "popularity" but even that failed. The guy's current "15 min of fame" flamed out in less than 5 min. BetsyRMadison (talk) 12:58, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Cononsense, I agree, financial blogger seems extraneous.

Adding the Notability tag

Instead of adding it straight away, I thought I'll ask here first: should the Template:Notability tag be added to the top of the page? The deletion discussion finished with no consensus regarding notability, therefore we perhaps should inform our readers that Lira's notability is still uncertain. BeŻet (talk) 19:10, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Maybe wait a little bit, eh? - GizzyCatBella🍁 19:22, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Wait for what? We are going to wait to return to the discussion as suggested by the closer, and this is what I'm suggesting to do >while we wait<. BeŻet (talk) 21:30, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Why don’t you just wait. - GizzyCatBella🍁 21:35, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Wait for what? BeŻet (talk) 09:50, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Look, I object to placing the tag now. It might appear to some that you are doing it because you didn't get your way when you nominated this article for deletion recently. Just pause for a couple of months, at least. Your AfD just ended a few days ago.[22]. - GizzyCatBella🍁 14:51, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Oppose - I do not think that the wording in the tag applies to this article. Reliable secondary sources that are independent of the topic and provide significant coverage of it beyond a mere trivial mention have been found already. No one is saying that the Daily Beast and others are not reliable, only that they may be somewhat biased. The tag was meant for such articles as Occupied Palestine and Syrian Golan Heights Advocacy Initiative, which is sourced only to blogs, social media and policy websites. In addition, I happen to have not understood the reasoning of the closer's closing remarks in the AfD discussion, because I think relisting this will only be an exercise in futility. Havradim leaf a message 22:42, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Something is severely wrong in some of the arguments above. Of course the notability tag both could and should be added immediately, there is nothing to "wait for" regarding tags. It is true we should wait a couple of months before relisting for AfD, but whenever an article needs tagging, tags should be added right away. I've never seen a suggestion to "wait" to add a tag, and can find no support whatsoever in WP policies for that suggestion. Jeppiz (talk) 17:03, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

• I think it constitutes an unhelpful tag when there are already multiple eyes on this article, all waiting for a better source to appear. Havradim leaf a message 20:27, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Support adding the tag immediately. @Jeppiz: is correct, there's no reason to wait to add the tag. BetsyRMadison (talk) 21:21, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Support adding the tag - The subject gains more weight by having an entry re-established on Wikipedia. "In determining proper weight, we consider a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources, not its prevalence among Wikipedia editors or the general public. If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small minority, it does not belong in Wikipedia (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it is true or not.I'm only interested in the much more tractable question is it encyclopedic and NPOV or not." J Wales -- My point is that his "Vanity" vocations hold no relevance - his blogging holds relevance only for the drama he was able to generate. The subject is not encylopedic so (at the least) a notablity tag needs to be added.71.203.10.104 (talk) 02:06, 7 May 2022 (UTC) <---  — User:71.203.10.104 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. -- anon. only account blocked for disruptive editing - GizzyCatBella🍁 00:58, 11 May 2022 (UTC) Oppose - AfD just ended a few days ago. There was no agreement to delete and there was no agreement on subject notability. An alleged lack of notability has not been established. The article needs some rest before a second attempt to get rid of it, especially by the same editor. - GizzyCatBella🍁 13:05, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

Comment - GizzyCatBella put a misleading, erroneous, and false-tag on editor @71.203.10.104: so I scratched through it. That IP editor has been on wiki since 2020 [23]. And, since 2020, that editor has contributed to several, several, several topics. It is imperative that wiki editors refrain from mischaracterization and mislabeling of other editors. BetsyRMadison (talk) 14:18, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

@GizzyCatBella: Since several people expressed the need for the tag, it should be placed there and not removed until the concerns are addressed. BeŻet (talk) 14:52, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

What several people? I see 2 people (IP is SPA) Up to you my dear, but this is wrong what you are doing. - GizzyCatBella🍁 02:42, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

GizzyCatBella's comment is false. The IP is not an SPA. Not even close to being an SPA. The IP has been on wiki since 2020 and has contributed to tons of different topics. Proof the IP is not an SPA is here [24]. Please be more careful to avoid mischaracterizing and mislabeling your fellow-editors. Thanks. BetsyRMadison (talk) 14:25, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

@GizzyCatBella: Could you please stop removing the tag when the issue is being actively discussed? You are confusing this with a content change, which needs consensus. This is a tag. Please return it. BeŻet (talk) 11:04, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

@BeŻet

1 - It wasn’t not me who removed it [25]

2 - I don’t agree with you for the reasons explain to you already, the tag should be removed.

3 - You edit warring [26], [27] - GizzyCatBella🍁 14:35, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

Please read Help:Maintenance template removal. I have consulted the Talk page to see if there's at least one other person who feels the tag should be there to avoid WP:TAGBOMB. There is no consensus regarding notability of Lira, therefore the tag is adequate. BeŻet (talk) 15:53, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

I was the one who removed it, for a few reasons: 1. BeŻet boldly added it, then it was removed by GizzyCatBella, then it was removed again by BeZet. That last action should never have happened per WP:BRD. 2. It is true that 3 editors want it up and 2 do not (Jeppiz expressed an opinion but did not vote). On the other hand, the two editors who do not think it should be up have actively taken it down, for good reason (see #3). 3. The tag reads, Please help to demonstrate the notability of the topic by citing reliable secondary sources that are independent of the topic and provide significant coverage of it beyond a mere trivial mention (emphasis mine). As anyone can see from the article, there are references [28] [29] which focus on the subject and go into great detail about him. The above sources (and more) are reliable and independent enough to be used in the article. BeZet boldly added it, with the explanation that There is no consensus regarding notability of Lira, therefore the tag is adequate. The flaw in this reasoning is, that cleanup tags are not for the purpose of affirming one side of a deletion discussion's feelings about an article. It is only intended to call attention to random editors to add reliable sources (as opposed to blogs or trivial mentions) to a poorly sourced article. WP:TAGBOMB says "Consider applying only the most specific, helpful tags" (emphasis mine). My conclusion here is that the placement of this tag is unhelpful (read Wikipedia:Tagging pages for problems#Over-tagging, paragraph: Unhelpful tags). Any tag that was boldly added can just as easily be boldly removed unless a good explanation as to why it was placed there is forthcoming. Havradim leaf a message 02:08, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Correct, the tag should be removed. - GizzyCatBella🍁 02:14, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Your assessment is incorrect, and as the deletion discussion has shown, the notability of the subject has not been established - there is currently no consensus. This is exactly the sort of situations the tag was designed for. You can claim that "anyone can see from the article", but clearly the discussion has shown that not everyone agrees with you. This subject is disputed, and therefore the tag should be there. BeŻet (talk) 19:49, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

There is no consensus for deleting the article, and there is also no consensus for placing a tag (it was just removed by yet another editor). This is exactly the sort of situations the tag was designed for. Show me a guideline that states this. Tags are ugly, and need to be placed there for a purpose, and that purpose is to alert people that the article needs improvement. Was your intention of placing this tag to get the article improved? If so, and you see for yourself that this action was contentious, why don't you try to improve it instead? Havradim leaf a message 22:04, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Tags are used to indicate problems with the article. The obvious problem with this article is: Lira is not notable. Hence the 'not notable' tag. In fact, Lira doesn't even meet wiki's Basic Criteria for notability. Face it, Lira's 15 min of fame ended over 17 years ago with his failed books & failed film stuff. BetsyRMadison (talk) 22:18, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

@BetsyRMadison Everything you wrote above is just your opinion that recently closed AfD [30] doesn’t confirm. The tag should be removed, there is no grounds for it anymore. - GizzyCatBella🍁 22:26, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Everything you just wrote is just your opinion.
Whereas, everything I wrote can be found on wiki's Tagging guidelines here [31] "Tags are often used to indicate problems". Thus, as per wiki guidelines, the Tag is needed because the "problem" still exists & was not resolved. Thus, @BeŻet: is 100% correct by stating "the notability of the subject has not been established - there is currently no consensus. This is exactly the sort of situations the tag was designed for ... This subject is disputed, and therefore the tag should be there." BetsyRMadison (talk) 23:04, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

There is no consensus that problem still exists -->Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gonzalo Lira. This is your opinion (you keep repeating) that the problem exists. Do you understand that? - GizzyCatBella🍁 23:10, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

You're confusing "opinion" with "fact."
It is a fact that the "problem" still exists because it is a fact that the problem was not resolved. And @BeŻet: stated that fact perfectly, "the notability of the subject has not been established - there is currently no consensus. This is exactly the sort of situations the tag was designed for ... This subject is disputed, and therefore the tag should be there." And that is a fact, not an opinion. BetsyRMadison (talk) 23:15, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

@Havradim - I believe you should seek assistance at Dispute resolution [32] as I view that being the best option to resolve this potential WP:OVERTAG issue here. - GizzyCatBella🍁 22:45, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

"Overtag"??? Lol! There's 1 tag. Surely to goodness you know 1 tag isn't "Overtagging." But I'm curious, if you want to start a DR and claim "overtag" for 1 tag; then why are you asking someone else to do it for you? BetsyRMadison (talk) 23:10, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

GizzyCatBella, this is not an Overtag situation, but maybe an Unhelpful tag situation. Regardless, all of this language comes from an essay, not a guideline. I personally don't think this is a case for DR just yet, I would rather wait and see what others have to say. Havradim leaf a message 23:18, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Sure, up to you. Perhaps RfC? - GizzyCatBella🍁 23:21, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

On second thought, I might not wait to file this. I am counting 5 for and 3 against, and BetsyRMadison is citing an essay (not a guideline) and BeŻet's own words, which is not very convincing to me. Havradim leaf a message 23:31, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

@Havradim - Sadly, I believe there is no other way to bring this article under control. - GizzyCatBella🍁 23:57, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

So you think removing the not notable so help find anything, anywhere to make this guy appear notable Tag will suddenly make Lira notable. Lol! That's not how "notability" works.
And you never answered, since you, GizzyCatBella so desperately want to start a DR, then why are you having someone else do it for you? BetsyRMadison (talk) 00:05, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

@Havradim: You misrepresented my comment. I quoted straight from WP Tagging policy "Tags" are often used to indicate problems. Some Wikipedia editors object to the practice of tagging instead of fixing, but there is value in pointing out an article's problems. Tagging allows editors to specialize, teaches editors and warns readers about subpar or problematic content. It is better if people solve the problems they encounter themselves, but not everyone may be able to.
By the way, I think you may have counted wrong. BetsyRMadison (talk) 00:02, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

@Havradim: in what way, specifically, do you think it's an "unhelpful tag?" Please be specific. Thanks, BetsyRMadison (talk) 23:50, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

I have opened a discussion regarding this matter at Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard#Gonzalo Lira, please offer your comments there. Thank you. Havradim leaf a message 00:14, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

@Havradim: So you can't answer. Got it. BetsyRMadison (talk) 00:34, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

I was busy filing the report and did not see your question. Please continue the discussion at the above link, thank you. Havradim leaf a message 00:43, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

@Havradim: So you still can't answer. Ha! Got it. BetsyRMadison (talk) 01:51, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

I think I have made my views on this subject very clear already in my comments above. All this going around in circles is exactly why I took it to dispute resolution, and trying to continue it here comes across as borderline disruptive. Havradim leaf a message 03:46, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

New article (The Bulwark)

Apparently, there is a new article entirely about Lira, published in The Bulwark [33]. It does add to his notability (the topic of the AfD). It brings up some additional elements that could be relevant to the article, such as repeated cases of anti-semitism, and frequently spreading baseless conspiracy theories (particularly about Covid), and a long list of pro-Russian lies about the current war. Jeppiz (talk) 12:06, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

The Bulwark may be quite correct about Gonzalo; but it is a donation funded opinion journal.. Some of the things they get right; "Gonzalo Lira, a Chilean-American pro-Russia “social media influencer” and video blogger based in Kharkiv, Ukraine." Their description of him is more accurate than the article here. What will it take to change the article here to call him a video blogger? I would say their opinion-conclusion is correct as well; The good part about the attention he got, though, was that it offers a useful glimpse of the kind of Westerner who ends up in the pro-Kremlin camp: a conspiracy theorist who hates Western liberalism for empowering women and thinks white men are oppressed and exploited by sluts and Jews.

https://www.thebulwark.com/the-redpill-grifter-who-became-an-anti-ukraine-propagandist-gonzalo-lira/ 71.203.10.104 (talk) 12:25, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

The Bulwark piece is already sourcing some things in the current article, but this could be expanded to include antisemitism and the possibility of his having staged his own disappearance (mighty suspicious that Lira tweeted about other pro-Russian "journalists" who have supposedly been killed/disappeared in Ukraine and then... disappeared only to show up completely fine a week later...).--Ermenrich (talk) 12:33, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

I think the current wording about his disappearance says it well enough. As far as antisemitism goes, that is a serious charge. Is simply reposting something antisemitic? If a source would quote him actually saying something like "I hate Jews" then maybe I would reconsider. Even The Bulwark doesn't label him an antisemite. After all, they themselves admit that he has spoken out against Ukrainian Nazis. Havradim leaf a message 21:11, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Who "admits" that? The Bulwark is not endorsing the view that Lira is speaking out against "Nazis". You mean how he's spoken out against the Ukrainian Nazis headed by a Jewish president? As that outspoken Anti-Fascist Sergei Lavrov has told us, the worst anti-semites are Jews and also Hitler was a Jew, so I guess in calling Zelensky a "cokehead" Lira really has taken a stab at Nazism. Seriously, you're assuming way too much good faith with this guy. He does not represent some "you need to listen to both sides" balance to the "Western narrative" on Ukraine (=reality).

I would consider him sharing anti-Semitic comments, including one questioning the Holocaust while saying "Something I came across—what do you all think," worthy of inclusion among Mr. Lira's many regrettable statements.--Ermenrich (talk) 13:02, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

So are you implying that the Jews themselves are the worst antisemites? Lira's mother is a Lopez and a Hess - both are Jewish family names. [34] For all we know he is a marrano. Seriously, the "antisemite card" being tossed around this way by The Bulwark and others only renders the concept meaningless. Havradim leaf a message 15:25, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

I'm not implying anything - I'm quoting the Russian foreign minister trying to justify their absurd claims that a Jewish man is a Nazi. Lira calling out "Ukrainian Nazis" is BS - he's just repeating Kremlin propaganda. Meanwhile the actual Nazis in Ukraine are looting, murdering, torturing, and genociding the Ukrainians away everywhere they go - except Lira says it's all a hoax.

So you're saying that calling the theory that there was no Holocaust "interesting" and retweeting a post saying that Jews are somehow sucking the life out of workers is not antisemitic?--Ermenrich (talk) 16:56, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

I am saying that if you come across a situation where both sides are crying "Nazi", then there exists the possibility that a) everyone is a Nazi b) no one is a Nazi or c) one of the sides is a Nazi. In the interest of this discussion not turning into a forum, I want to just reiterate my position above that we ought not get sucked into this cynical game in regards to Mr. Lira's disposition, and I will just leave it at that. Havradim leaf a message 17:43, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Lol. It's reported that Gonzalo Lira is Catholic (not Jewish) The Bulwork highlights Lira's anti-Semitism and includes Lira's Holocaust denial rant on Lira's blog

The anti-Semitism is far from an isolated instance. Another /pol/ repost last November, shared with Lira’s comment, “Something I came across—what do you all think,” argues that if the Holocaust was real and the Allies really did save the Jews from the Nazis, Jews should be eternally grateful to white men; but since they constantly revile white people and “openly encourage non-Whites and non-gentiles to destroy their society and culture,” this means that either Jews are odiously ungrateful to their liberators and "Hitler was right," or the Holocaust is “just propaganda and lies.”

And it's very ironic that you allege editors are saying "Jews themselves are the worst antisemites" when it is Lira who's the one alleging 'Jews themselves are the worst antisemites' when he falsely & maliciously accuses a Jewish President of supporting "Nazis." BetsyRMadison (talk) 16:50, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Reminder about --> WP:BLP and WP:BLPDS - GizzyCatBella🍁 13:48, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Would you care to develop, GizzyCatBella? I think you'll find Ermenrich and I have been around for quite some time and, quite frankly, don't need policy reminders. For your information, WP:BLP means that information needs to be properly sourced. It doesn't mean it cannot be critical. What Bulwark writes is based on Lira's own publications, several of which are cited in their article. Jeppiz (talk) 15:17, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Correct or not, I don't think Bulwark meets the criteria of a reliable source WP:RS . 71.203.10.104 (talk) 22:03, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

doesn't it fall under WP:PARTISAN in general?

The only ref to it I see on the RS board is here:

Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_303

Which is not about making a determination of the site itself, i just happen to agree it's very similar to something like the National Review, so usual caveats around WP:RSOPINION.

Perhaps better sources should be used - if they had existed, but it's political commentary about someone who threw himself into the (geo)political commentator ring, so I think there is some relevance. Cononsense (talk) 01:57, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

William Kristol (/ˈkrɪstəl/; born December 23, 1952) is an American neoconservative writer. A frequent commentator on several networks including CNN, he was the founder and editor-at-large of the political magazine The Weekly Standard. Kristol is now editor-at-large of the centre-right publication The Bulwark. Bulwark's opinion regarding GL mostly is true to fact; The description of GL as a blogger is spot on (and IMHO needs to be changed here, by all means retain filmmaker and author in his background information; that "experience" is all puffed up here as to provide "credibility" where there is none IMHO). Should any source that is pure opinion be relied upon to footnote a Wikipedia biography? What is the story here; A Youtube propagandist goes missing and then was found? The turn from man-o-sphere to target of opportunity? | Listened to his latest podcast - 1) Ukraine is going to be leveled, split, and absorbed in part by the east and in part by the west - I give that a P for possibility 2) US to blame - I see that as both propaganda and opinion to which he is entitled. 3) He has an opinion, a bit of sensationalist drama that gained some traction, that is it that is all. 4) 15 minutes of fame 71.203.10.104 (talk) 20:30, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

This seems like a useful source, but with opinion caveats. We shouldn't say he "is" antisemitic or misogynistic in Wikipedia's voice but we can report the facts about things that he said where noteworthy and with appropriate attribution. BobFromBrockley (talk) 11:34, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

There is a video online where he taunted another blogger's position points with soft porn of his Ukrainian girlfriend. The whole Coach Red Pill act/reality is clearly Misogynistic, go to the Ukraine and get some action and a pliant woman. Anti-feminist YouTube blogger - would be consistent with other Wikipedia pages. 71.203.10.104 (talk) 12:23, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

I removed the Bulwark reference as a source, as it is a narrowly-focused, partisan opinion blog.--FeralOink (talk) 23:19, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Vote on Lede Change..

From

Gonzalo Lira López (born February 29, 1968) is a Chilean-American novelist,[2] film director, financial blogger, YouTuber, and commentator in the manosphere known as Coach Red Pill. A resident of Kharkiv, Ukraine, he started vlogging about the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine shortly after it began from what has been described by The Daily Beast as a pro-Putin perspective.[3] In April 2022, Lira alleged that he had been detained by the Security Service of Ukraine.[4]

To

Gonzalo Lira López (born February 29, 1968) is a Chilean-American blogger on Telegram and a video blogger on Youtube who lives as an expatriate in Kharkiv Ukraine. As of April 2022, Lira started blogging in support of the "provoked, justified, and righteous Russian invasion of Ukraine.' He opines that Ukraine will eventually be split and absorbed by Russia and Poland. In April 2022, Lira gained notoriety in Russian journals, and the blogosphere, when he "went missing" and it was alleged that he had been detained and killed by the Security Service of Ukraine in retaliation for his Anti-Volodymyr_Zelenskyy and anti-Ukrainian blogging. Lira was not killed and he continues to blog Russian war propaganda on Youtube. In justification of the Russian invasion Lira's opinions have been highlighted in the Russian propaganda outlet Pravda.

Prior to blogging about the invasion Lira was a misogynistic Man-o-Sphere commentator and self ascribed dating coach and advisor (Coach Red Pill) who espoused the position that women only desire money and children, and that Ukrainian women were both pliant and satisfied with their assigned gender roles. Prior to that, and In 2010, Lira began contributing blog articles to Zero Hedge, naked capitalism, Seeking Alpha and Business Insider, despite have no economic background, no financial education, and no business experience in the financial markets."

71.203.10.104 (talk) 01:18, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

The green text are proposed & sourced additions:

Gonzalo Lira López (born February 29, 1968) is a Chilean-American blogger on Telegram, [a social media outlet known for being a "tool of conspiracy theorists," and "a cesspit of antisemitic content"] and a video blogger on Youtube who lives as an expatriate in Kharkiv Ukraine. As of April 2022, Lira started blogging in support of the "provoked, justified, and righteous Russian invasion of Ukraine [of Russia expanding it's 2014 invasion to include Russia's 2022 plan of installing a "pro-Kremlin puppet government in Kyiv" by toppling Ukraine's democratically elected government.] He opines that Ukraine will eventually be split and absorbed by Russia and Poland. In April 2022, Lira gained notoriety in Russian journals, and the blogosphere, when he "went missing" [during "Russia’s bombardment" of Kharkiv, Ukraine on April 15] . [With no proof,] it was alleged that he had been detained and killed by the Security Service of Ukraine in retaliation for his Anti-Volodymyr_Zelenskyy and anti-Ukrainian blogging. Lira was not killed and he continues to blog Russian war propaganda on Youtube. In justification of the Russian invasion Lira's opinions have been highlighted in the Russian propaganda outlet Pravda. BetsyRMadison (talk) 17:44, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

The current lede is good as it is. The proposed wording above is too long-winded a lede for such a short article, and some of it is clearly not neutral. I am opposed to introducing sources which do not mention the subject unless absolutely necessary. Havradim leaf a message 19:40, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

The revisions look great.. I would omit "a social media outlet known for being a tool of conspiracy theorists" and a "cesspit of antisemitic content" because the article is not about telegram. Everything else about him eg Coach Red Pill, non notable books/film, and Financial Blogging can be in the content section of the article. The article posted about salon speaks to his financial blogging.

Gonzalo Lira López (born February 29, 1968) is a Chilean-American blogger on Telegram and a video blogger on Youtube who lives as an expatriate in Kharkiv Ukraine. As of April 2022, Lira started blogging in support of the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Lira supports toppling Ukraine's democratically elected government. He opines that Ukraine will eventually be split and absorbed by Russia and Poland. In April 2022, Lira gained notoriety in Russian journals, and the blogosphere, when he "went missing" during "Russia’s bombardment" of Kharkiv, Ukraine on April 15th. With no proof, it was alleged that he had been detained and killed by the Security Service of Ukraine in retaliation for his anti-Ukrainian blogging. Lira was not killed and he continues to blog Russian war propaganda on Youtube. In justification of the Russian invasion Lira's opinions have been highlighted in the Russian propaganda outlet Pravda 71.203.10.104 (talk) 22:01, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

If you could run with the above compromise it would be great! 71.203.10.104 (talk) 22:04, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

It is not for you or anyone to decide that all of the subject's previous work e.g. novels, films, CRP etc. is not notable, and therefore somehow not suitable for the lede, because that is not what is in the sources. I don't understand this fixation you seem to have in labeling this person as a "blogger". A reread of WP:BLPBALANCE might be in order. Havradim leaf a message 23:42, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Because that is his main vocation is blogging and has been for many many years - since 2010; if he is notable for anything it would be blogging and video blogging. It is out of balance and proportion that he is listed primarily as a filmmaker and author; this is something that happened way back in 1997 and 2002; he is not notable (or known) for either vocation. Even the photo used with him behind a camera is outdated by decades. So yes.. he is a blogger that had a career change. Again, it is undue weight to say that he is a filmmaker-author first and blogger second. It simply is not true. ---- When vanity accomplishments are placed first, it provides a false sense of credentialing, which again creates an imbalance to truth and reality. (puffery) --- From what I can see the consensus is to make the change to blogger. 71.203.10.104 (talk) 00:59, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

That's all Lira is: a blogger. That's it. Since 2005, Lira's been a failed novelist, a failed film whatever who, for nearly the past 2 decades (17 years) is only "notable" and only known for blogging misogynist hatred against women, repeating anti-Semitic tropes, repeating Holocaust denying content, spreading pro-Russian propaganda that airs on Russia's-state-owned media propaganda outlet. What I don't understand, is why are you, or any editor, wanting to whitewash & sugar-coat the last 17 years of Lira's life by pretending he didn't do the things he did. BetsyRMadison (talk) 14:03, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

ZeroHedge and conspiracy theories

I saw what I perceived to be problematic edits so I modified them, but BetsyRMadison reinstated them, so I am hoping you will address the issues here. Please explain how you know that Lira posts at Business Insider, ZeroHedge and Naked Capitalism on his own. Can you prove that he owns these websites and/or blogs or otherwise controls what they do and do not publish? Secondly, I am not sure what you found wrong with my version His thoughts were also reposted on Zero Hedge, a far-right blog accused of spreading pro-Russian conspiracy theories which acknowledges your concerns without going over the top. Your edit came across as less than neutral, especially since this is an article about Lira, not ZeroHedge. I don't understand why you removed the link to ZeroHedge, and at the same time included the CBS source which talks about it getting banned from Twitter (it has nothing to do with this article, Lira is not mentioned there, and the ban was overturned, so what exactly is your point for including all this here? People could have clicked on the link to find out all the details.) Finally, what is your point for writing, On 22 April, Lira alleged to vlogger Alex Christoforou that he had been detained by the Security Service of Ukraine after his family had lost contact with him on 15 April but he has not provided any proof to support his allegations. There is no need to repeat that he didn't provide any proof if it already used the word "alleged", which is only repeating the same thing. Either take out "alleged" or "he has not provided any proof" because this scheme works out to be overtly biased. Havradim leaf a message 00:08, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

agreed. a lot of background info about things like telegram, ZeroHedge, etc, make it sound like some aspects of a WP:COATRACK. Cononsense (talk) 00:22, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

Salon is one of many sources for his financial blogging and it is accurate. He has done three types of blogging over the last twenty years.. his adult years. Financial, man-o-sphere and also Misogyny, Ukraine.. the majority of his career whatever he thinks will give him attention. I do agree with Havrdim on several points 1) Stick to the sources that speak to the subject. 2) The ethos of Zerohedge or Telegram holds no relevance; in fact it creates a fallacy of attacking the person by inferring that he is tarnished because he was featured on a tarnished platform. ----- The Lira entry was not notable thus it was removed from Wikipedia but recently something changed to make it notable (sort-of). What makes him notable was the drama of him becoming a missing-person in fringe and Russian propaganda outlets; The drama was so riveting that he was "pronounced dead." Nobody knows what happened, if anything. A truly notable blogger is "Bald and Bankrupt" who just got arrested in Russia and, unlike Lira, he has been featured in many mainstream outlets. I don't think we should make more of Lira either positively (regarding film/books) or negatively (by stating he was on tarnished platforms); he is what he is a not so notable blogger who dribbled in other vocations that did not hold notability on Wikipedia, but now does perhaps due to some unverifiable or invented drama . 71.203.10.104 (talk) 02:04, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

PS support for the notability tag exists and it needs to be restated.. it was improper to remove the tag. 71.203.10.104 (talk) 02:10, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

You're mistaken about the "Coatrack" allegation. Look, if wiki editors want to allege Lira is "notable" because after he couldn't make it as an author or director (decades ago), he decided to spread misogynist content, conspiracies, repeat anti-Semitic content along with repeating "Holocaust denial" conspiracies, and pro-Russian propaganda (as described in the Reliable Sources: Daily Beast, Salon, the New Yorker, Firearm news, and the Bulwark here [35]; then it is incumbent on wiki editors to state the facts that the blogs he posts on are known for being filled with anti-Semitism, conspiracy theories, and pro-Russian propaganda. BetsyRMadison (talk) 03:45, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

the guy is an unsuccessful alt-fringe-blogger.

He constantly blogged about the "Tiffany Dover VAX Conspiracy" - it was the same nonsense where she was pronounced dead after receiving the Covid vaccine. He also "fights" other bloggers who are more successful in the same space such as Carl Benjamin to gain attention. 71.203.10.104 (talk) 11:26, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

1) All sources say Lira is a blogger. No reliable source claims Lira is a "journalist." Therefore wiki should not imply he is anything but what he is/was: a blogger.

2) No reliable source claims Lira is/was 'paid' for any of his blog posts he posted on any blog. Therefore, wiki should not imply he's anything but a blogger who posts stuff, like millions & millions of other people in the world. Nothing notable about being one of a trillion bloggers in the world.
3) Of Lira's blogging:

a) Lira wrote his own 'bio' on Business Insider & some the blogs he claims are "his" on BI are not his. Take the 1st one he lists here [36] titled "Welcome To The Subprime Debacle, Part 2." Lira didn't write that, he claims he did in his BI bio, but he didn't. The actual piece [37] shows some guy named John Mauldin wrote that.

b) The 2nd blog Lira claims is on BI, is not even published on BI. You go to the link & it directs you to Lira's personal blog here [38]. I could go on, but we all know that on wiki, the subject (here the subject is Lira) is never to be used as the RS.

c) Zero Hedge is a blog were anyone can publish their 'pro-Russia & conspiracy theory' stuff.

d) Zero Hedge is not & never has been an RS. That's why I removed the link; they're not an RS.

e) CBS is an RS. That's why I used the CBS link. The CBS link confirms Zero Hedge is a conspiracy theory blog. If editors on here want to allege Lira is "notable" because he posts blogs at a 'pro-Russian, conspiracy theory' blog, Zero Hedge, then naturally wiki must include those facts about Zero Hedge.

f) On Naked Capitalism "blogger" page, Lira is so NOT notable that on NC past "Valued Contributor" Lira is not listed here [39].

4) I never said he "owns" the blogs at Business Insider, Zero Hedge, or Naked Capitalism, so no, I won't try to "prove" something I never said.
5) I did not write, "On 22 April, Lira alleged to vlogger Alex Christoforou that he had been detained by the Security Service of Ukraine after his family had lost contact with him on 15 April but he has not provided any proof to support his allegations."
In fact, I think that whole sentence should be removed for being an unsubstantiated allegation (conspiracy) with no proof to support it. Wiki editors aren't suppose to post conspiracy theories and/or unsubstantiated allegations that are the foundation of a conspiracy theory
6) I wrote, "but he has not provided any proof to support his allegations" because Lira did not provide any proof.
You're mistaken to say an "allegation" means there's no proof to support the allegation. Many people who allege things can & do provide proof to support their allegation.
In fact, in US Courts all day, everyday, people do provide proof to support their allegations. So it's not 'bias' in any way to state the fact that Lira has provided no proof for his allegations. None. BetsyRMadison (talk) 03:32, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

We have secondary sources now for all the websites. We don't need to describe them more than briefly as they all have their own articles. Adding refs to articles that don't mention Lira is SYNTH (and also might be misleading as Zero Hedge has changed over time). BobFromBrockley (talk) 11:32, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

I disagree and here's why. If wiki is going to allege Lira is "notable" because of Lira's anti-Semitic, Holocaust denying stuff he published at Zero Hedge between 2010-2013; then wiki obviously must explain the type of blog Zero Hedge is: an unreliable, conspiracy theory, pro-Russian propaganda, blog. Also, Zero Hedge has not changed over time. On Feb 2022 from Bloomberg news: "US Accuses Zero Hedge of Spreading Russian Propaganda" [40] "officials said Zero Hedge ... published articles created by Moscow-controlled media that were then shared by outlets and people unaware of their nexus to Russian intelligence.". If editors think Lira is notable then surely to goodness those same editors agree that there's no reason to sugar-coat Lira's sole reason for "notability" which is for the past 17 straight years: spreading hate (misogyny & anti-Semitism), spreading untruths, and spreading conspiracies. That's it. For that last 17 years, that's Lira's sole 'claim to fame.' BetsyRMadison (talk) 14:14, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

@BetsyRMadison read WP:BLP. - GizzyCatBella🍁 14:23, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

@GizzyCatBella, I return the comment you made to BetsyRMadison back to you, because your behavior here is starting to become problematic. When the article was up for AfD, you campaigned more actively than anyone else to keep the article. Now, when users try to improve it, you constantly oppose them. You seem to be under the erroneous impression that WP:BLP means articles about living persons cannot be negative, but that is not at all what BLP is saying. What the policy does say is that we need to be careful to use sources. What the discussions over the past few weeks have made clear is that the few available sources about Lira are very negative. One calls him a "sleazy dating coach", and several different sources detail his misogyny, bizarre conspiracy theories, antisemitism and so on. It's not flattering, but that's what the sources say, and then that is what the article will say as well. Not in Wikivoice, but based on the sources. It's very hard to understand your behavior here over the last few days, after you argued so strongly for a keep at AfD yet now you oppose extending the article based on the sources that exist. So instead of telling others to read WP:BLP, please read it yourself. If we are to have an article on a person, then that article will reflect the sources we have. Jeppiz (talk) 15:25, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

@Jeppiz - Source below where is Lira denying the Holocaust and quote it. This is a serious allegation. WP:BLP apply to talk pages as well. Articles should be written responsibly, cautiously and the material should not be poorly sourced. I believe you might benefit from guidance at WP:BLP also. - GizzyCatBella🍁 15:33, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

The source, the Bulwork highlights Lira's anti-Semitism and includes Lira's Holocaust denial rant on Lira's blog

The anti-Semitism is far from an isolated instance. Another /pol/ repost last November, shared with Lira’s comment, “Something I came across—what do you all think,” argues that if the Holocaust was real and the Allies really did save the Jews from the Nazis, Jews should be eternally grateful to white men; but since they constantly revile white people and “openly encourage non-Whites and non-gentiles to destroy their society and culture,” this means that either Jews are odiously ungrateful to their liberators and "Hitler was right," or the Holocaust is “just propaganda and lies.” . That is Lira's anti-Semitic and Holocaust denying content, as per the source. BetsyRMadison (talk) 15:42, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

I take this to mean, if it is true at all (we are not given the full text, only The Bulwarks analysis of it) that either he thinks that Jews are odiously ungrateful to their liberators, or that the Holocaust is just propaganda and lies, not both at the same time, because in his view, they are mutually exclusive. So based on this source, it would be impossible to describe Lira as an "antisemite and Holocaust denier". Let us unpack this even further. He is claiming that Jews who were liberated from concentration camps (or their descendants) "constantly revile white people". Aren't European Jews in the United States classified as white? Is Lira asserting that they hate themselves? Further, I mentioned above that Lira's mother has two Jewish surnames. So, is Lira himself a "self-hating Jew"? (If you don't understand how a nominal Catholic can still be a Jew in secret, read Marrano). In any case, great care is needed when considering using any of this. Havradim leaf a message 02:59, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

@Havradim: Lira says either "Hitler was right" (anti-Semitism) for waging genocide on Jews or the Holocaust is "just propaganda and lies" (Holocaust denier). The source clearly highlights Lira as an anti-Semitic, Holocaust denier. You can personally analyze Lira anti-Semitism and Holocaust denials all you want as your own "original research" but your original research isn't allowed in the article.
Gonzalo Lira himself says he's Catholic, not Jewish. All sources I've seen say Lira is Catholic, not Jewish; So I don't know why you keep falsely claiming he's Jewish when he's clearly not Jewish. We have no idea what his mother's full name is. More important though is that the last name "Hess" does not mean you're Jewish & neither does the last name "Lopez"; ie., Hitler's Nazi pal Rudolf Hess "leading member of the Nazi Party in Nazi Germany. Appointed Deputy Führer to Adolf Hitler in 1933." ahh... Rudolf Hess wasn't Jewish & neither is Gonzalo Lira. BetsyRMadison (talk) 12:28, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

I did not claim he is Jewish, I was only asking questions. And I reiterate my position that we cannot take The Bulwark's word for it when considering if the subject is an antisemite. They are clearly biased, and might have taken his words out of context. "Hitler was right" could mean right about economics or invading Poland. I would need to see the full text of his blog, and even then the whole thing would border on OR. What we would need is a mainstream source stating unequivocally that "Lira, an avowed antisemite and Holocaust denier ... Havradim leaf a message 17:56, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

@Havradim: We go by what the source reports. Using Lira's own words, the source highlights Lira's anti-Semitism and Lira's Holocaust denial content. Oh & thanks for finally admitting Lira is not Jewish. BetsyRMadison (talk) 18:03, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Read the source again. It brings up the spectre of "antisemitism" and only implies something about Holocaust denial. They are careful to not label him either of those things, justifiably so (probably due to libel concerns. Incidentally, we are bound by the same rules. So I suggest you drop it). Havradim leaf a message 18:21, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

@Havradim: We go by what the source reports. Lira wrote, "Hitler was right about them (Jews)." Using Lira's own words from Lira's Russian Telegram blog/page (here [41]) the source is clear and the source highlights Lira's anti-Semitism and Lira's Holocaust denial content. Lira wrote

If the Holocaust was real, yet Jews hate their liberators and their descendants, doesn’t that prove Hitler was right about them?

Or alternately, if Jews feel free to attack their liberators and their descendants, isn’t it reasonable to infer that maybe the Holocaust didn’t happen, and is just propaganda and lies?

No matter how you slice it, the source highlights Lira's anti-Semitism and Holocaust denials. Best regards, BetsyRMadison (talk) 18:03, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

I did read it, now I suggest you read it. Things to notice: Since 2005 (17 years) Lira is only "notability" for Lira's anti-Semitic, Holocaust denying content, and pro-Russian propaganda that he's blogged & vlogged about between 2010 - today, and it is all properly sourced. You see, BLP says information needs to be properly sourced. Properly sourced doesn't mean editors have to whitewash & sugar-coat facts, even if you, or I, or any other editor don't like the facts. What Bulwark writes about Lira's spreading misogyny, anti-Semitic, Holocaust denying content, and pro-Russian propaganda is based on Lira's own publications, several of which are cited in Bulwark's article. BLP does not says editors have to pretend Lira (or others) didn't do the things they did do, just that the things they did should be properly source - and they are properly sourced. BetsyRMadison (talk) 15:39, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

You sourced that to this -->[42] web-site. Is this an apropiate RS for such a serious WP:BLP allegations? - GizzyCatBella🍁 15:49, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

The content he produces is odious and he has been producing odious commentary for years. Here is an analog in Wikipedia of other folks blogging in similar space

... is far-right white nationalist and white supremacist podcaster, blogger, author, political commentator, and banned YouTuber who promotes conspiracy theories, scientific racism, eugenics, and racist views

and another;

is an American blogger, former pickup artist, and writer connected with the alt-right. .... has self-published more than a dozen sex and travel guides, most of which discuss picking up and having sex with women in specific countries. His advice, his videos and his writings have received widespread criticism, including accusations of misogyny, promotion of rape, antisemitism, homophobia, and having ties to the alt-right.

There is no reason to sugar coat documented reality regarding the long and documented history of odious conduct from University forward in favor of emphasizing a fantasy view of an accredited filmmaker, author, journalist, and/or blogger. 71.203.10.104 (talk) 15:57, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

@IP - This might be true or not. You need solid sources (s) to be able too write such things about a living person. Your entire comment right now also appears to be in a serious violation of WP:BLP. The BLP policy applies to talk pages. The burden of evidence rests with the editor who writes the material. The material should not be added to an article when the only sourcing is tabloid journalism. When material is both verifiable and noteworthy, it will have appeared in more reliable sources. - GizzyCatBella🍁 16:14, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

The Bulwark is a solid source. I notice you're not complaining about the real tabloid & known conspiracy theory, pro-Russian propaganda blogs: Zero Hedge & Naked Capitalism, used in the article. And I notice you're not complaining about the non-solid source, Firearms News. You're only complaining about the Bulwark.
An editor not liking the source because the source highlights Lira's 17 years of blogging misogyny, promotion of rape, antisemitism, Holocaust denial content, homophobia, Russian propaganda, etc. doesn't make it a "tabloid" & doesn't make it non-solid. BetsyRMadison (talk) 17:00, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

One cannot just post on ZeroHedge, Naked Capitalism, or Business Insider! They don't let "just anyone" post on any of these websites. I can provide sources if you really want me to, but I can tell you that all three are commercial websites that are sensationalist, left-wing, and finance fluff respectively, but that does not diminish the traffic they generate nor imply they have small readerships. It isn't easy to get one post from one's blog on any of those sites, let alone several, so it worth mention in the article. Although ZH isn't WP:RS, it is not being used as a source.--FeralOink (talk) 23:19, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Career missing chronology of Coach red Pill and Misogyny - His rebuttal of sexual assault charges at Dartmouth

His career is missing the chronology of "Coach Red Pill" and his misogynistic positions, treatment, and opinion of/on women.

Is a University Paper an acceptable source? If so, then his suspension from Dartmouth is very relevant since it ties directly into misogynistic blogging. The two life-choices are in fact the same in that he treats women as sub-humans.

https://www.thedartmouth.com/article/1995/02/my-education-at-dartmouth

"My freshman fall, I was accused of sexual assault and harassment by another freshman. I was brought before the Committee on Standards (COS), and though there was proof that I did not harass the woman in question and more than a reasonable doubt as to whether I assaulted her, I was suspended for three terms by the COS, having been found innocent of harassment but guilty of assault."

"It's easy -- and let's be honest here -- it's fun to support causes where everyone agrees, where everyone is showing support. Homophobes? Racists? Sexists? Elitists? Let's get 'em! Yes, it's fun and easy to be a part of Peter Pan's gang, flinging your slings and arrows at some bad old, distant, maybe even illusory Captain Hook."

He could have sued Dartmouth if he was not happy with the result of in house discipline; an avenue of appeal was open to him. Most reasonable people would defend a false finding on sexual assault that would follow and tarnish them throughout life. He claims to be the victim in TheDartmouth, his alleged victim would be further victimized in any rebuttal.

How should we handle a nefarious BLP? Is this person notable because they are notorious? There is not a single positive about this fellow in any reliable source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.203.10.104 (talk) 02:25, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

Well they might be notable because the number of notorious youtubers outspoken on unpopular stances against government, who die in prison, is relatively scant.152.117.104.137 (talk) 12:59, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

"notable because hey are notorious" ... good question. BetsyRMadison (talk) 13:30, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

Appreciate help with change to Lede below; the idea is to assure that film-making and books are in the body of the article; with the emphasis where it should be in NPOV; fringe blogger. 71.203.10.104 (talk) 15:34, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

Category?

Perhaps 'Category:Misogyny'?Xx236 (talk) 07:06, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

You can't be serious? Have you read Category:Misogyny? There is not a single name listed there. Nor is there a Category:Misogynists, for good reason. Havradim leaf a message 03:18, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Tuning the Lead

Gonzalo Lira López (born February 29, 1968) is a fringe Chilean-American blogger, YouTuber, and commentator. A resident of Kharkiv, Ukraine, he started vlogging about the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine shortly after it began from what has been described by The Daily Beast as a pro-Putin perspective.[3] In April 2022, Lira alleged that he had been detained by the Security Service of Ukraine, there were false assertions and assumptions that he was killed.[4]

Appreciate sources and footnotes to support the above. 71.203.10.104 (talk) 12:38, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

Russia bombarded Kharkiv April 15 - when Lira wasn't blogging

@Ermenrich: deleted the fact that Russia was bombing Kharkiv, Ukraine, the place where Lira claims he blogs from. I added back in and here's why: It's important fact to include the "Russia’s bombardment" of Kharkiv, Ukraine on April 15 at the exact same time Lira's "family lost contact with him." Therefore, while the sources don't mention "Lira" by name (and no reason why they should, he's just a blogger like zillions of others) the sources do confirm & mention that Russia's illegal invasion & bombing in Kharkiv, that "killed ten civilians, including a 7-month-old child. Another 35 people were injured. Several residential buildings were damaged and destroyed." is the same place Lira claims he blogs from at the exact same time his family lost contact with him. BetsyRMadison (talk) 16:45, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

@BetsyRMadison: We cannot say that. It makes the text insinuate that the reason Lira was absent was the Russian bombardment, and that's an insinuation we would be making, as it's not in the sources. That's not possible. It may be that it is the reason, or it maybe that it isn't, but it's not for us to speculate. Jeppiz (talk) 17:42, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

@Jeppiz: I disagree and here's why. Yes, it is in two of the article's sources: CNN & Denver Post, (source #19 & #20 in the article) both talk about Russia bombading Kharkiv at the exact same time, on the exact date Lira's "family lost contact with him" gives facts surrounding his living situation. (see article's sources #19 & #20 are here ).
Therefore, we are stating facts on the ground in Khariv on the exact same date Lira lost contact; not inferring, not insinuating, not implying -- only stating facts on the ground. Lira 'prides' himself on vlogging from inside a war zone, so in my view, there's no reason to eliminate the actual bombing, shelling, etc taking place around Lira when Lira lost contact with his family. Best regards, BetsyRMadison (talk) 18:11, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

I agree with Jeppiz, and I would suggest looking at our rules against WP:original research again. It doesn't matter if they happened at the same time. If our sources don't make the connection, we can't. And hey, Kharkiv is being bombarded more or less constantly.--Ermenrich (talk) 18:57, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

@Ermenrich: and @Jeppiz: Ok, fair enough. I trust the judgement of both of you on this. Thank you both for hearing me out though. Best regards, BetsyRMadison (talk) 00:34, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

@BetsyRMadison Where did you see these two sources you are using (CNN and Denver Post [43]) speaking or mentioning the BLP (Gonzales Lira)? If they do, you should be able to demonstrate that. - GizzyCatBella🍁 19:52, 9 May 2022 (UTC) To address the potential violation of the WP:BLP by the introduction of WP:OR I tagged the article accordingly. See [44] - GizzyCatBella🍁 20:22, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

References

Lira's "disappearance"

I see no reason to have a sentence about how worried a bunch of fringe bloggers were about his disappearance. This was a complete non-event: people lost touch with him on the 15th and he showed up again on the 22th, unharmed, making accusations that fit with the "Ukrainian Nazi government" stuff he spews (except I guess that he's alive). There is no reason to inflate this event by talking about who said what about where he was.--Ermenrich (talk) 22:03, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

Only "fringe bloggers" cared, and then amplified, this drama. There is a dearth, actually there is not a single article I can find, of mainstream coverage about Lira's disappearance and reappearance. Drama at the "fringe" was the reason Lira was resurrected on Wikipedia, and it is the reason why folks are looking for credibility and credentialing where there is none.. Lira, a blogger, was removed from Wikipedia for lack of notability; and there are no mainstream sources to suggest that he is notable. The lack of notability, and the fact he is a sociopath, means there is really no article here (unless you want to describe his nefarious activities, and that is all in the primary source content he spews.) The "drama" will cool down over time and I am sure the entry will be deleted when folks on the fringe stop spinning around his nonsense. 71.203.10.104 (talk) 23:40, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

Not a single article you could find? Here is one for you [45]. - GizzyCatBella🍁 00:00, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

You mean Cyprus_Mail where the "right wing" newspaper friendly to Russia - in a country providing refuge to Russian Oligarchs and their wealth; was purchased by a lawyer who was previously found guilty of bribing the deputy attorney general, in a country with 1.5 Million people and change. Criticism came when articles referring to his conviction were removed from the website of the newspaper the day after ownership of the newspaper. This is hardly a mainstream source by any means.. "The story" was written by unnamed staff. ------ I would say that the body of text that the article supports should be removed. There is "CNN" who translated Russian State Media (propaganda) to provide insight into dis-information; Russian State Media loves Lira. I was not able to find a single quality or reliable mainstream source about Lira, he is not notable in the mainstream.. 71.203.10.104 (talk) 00:35, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Yup, that's the one, Cyprus Mail, the pro-Russian tabloid. It's kind of weird that any wiki editor would claim the Cyprus Mail tabloid is any way 'reliable.' But, here we are. BetsyRMadison (talk) 01:00, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

I don't think there is any evidence that it's a tabloid or pro-russian. What's your evidence of that?

See also Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_375#Cyprus_Mail_on_Gonzalo_Lira

either way, the bulwark article also talks about Lira's disappearance and reappearance. Cononsense (talk) 02:34, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

The Bulwark article LAMBASTS LIRA every opinion published LAMBASTS LIRA. Bulwark is a site of Political Opinion, the Cypress Mail is a Political Site as well. These are not quality or neutral sites, There is NO neutral sources of record to be found. Novelist-Filmmaker are The main vocations listed in this article yet they are not his main vocation (not notable not relevant, not contextually true) yet they are listed first in his bio because they puff him up, this entry is lying to its readers with a contextual falsehood. He is a fringe blogger with fringe and secondary sources covering him.. He is notorious for his video's and blogs on fringe but he is not notable. Find a mainstream source and I will reconsider this conclusion. PS" He is blogging about Financial Collapse now. 2022.05.09 Get Ready For The Economic Collapse71.203.10.104 (talk) 12:35, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Cypress Mail seems to be one of the two major newspapers in Cypress, so not sure why people are characterising it as a 'political site'. I don't think the reporter in that piece examined Lira's claims critically, nor did they did seem to contact the authorities in Ukraine or the US Embassy (of which Lira is a citizen, and actually has a major presence in Ukraine unlike Chile), but that's not here nor there, because Wikipedia is a tertiary source.

I agree that this guy's main vocation is no longer a film maker or novelist. but keep in mind problems with WP:RECENTISM. despite my own personal beliefs, there seemed to some relevant high quality sources as pointed out by various people in the AfD. Cononsense (talk) 13:31, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

I agree 100% with you Ermenrich. BetsyRMadison (talk) 00:57, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Comment Most of the above discussion seems off-topic to me. The point is not whether or not Lira is notable. The point is how much detail we need to give his "disappearance". I do not believe it deserves more than a sentence saying that he "disappeared" from the 15th to the 22nd, then claimed to have been detained. The fact that various bloggers speculated on his death, its connection to "Ukrainian Nazis" and the "Kyiv government", and that the spokeswoman for the Russian MFA hoped he was OK are not worthy of inclusion in this article. He is OK, the story was picked up in exactly two (probably) reliable sources, the Cyprus Mail and the Bulwark, the latter of which suggests Lira might have staged the whole thing. A massive media event this is not, nor is it particularly notable. If mainstream sources had speculated on his disappearance, than it would be worth including.--Ermenrich (talk) 13:38, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

@Ermenrich: Once again, I agree with you 100%. For wikipedia to promote, propagate, and spread the unfounded blatant conspiracy theories from known Russian propagandist-bloggers (Ritter etc) is nutty, disgusting, & unbecoming of wikipedia. BetsyRMadison (talk) 14:06, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

While acknowledging your concerns Ermemrich, I am going to have to disagree with you here. We don't have much to go on with this subject as it is, and his disappearance/detention/arrest/slight of hand (call it what you will) generated a lot of interest and was noted in many sources. I don't see that including some details about it is somehow beyond the pale, and besides, there are a few more wikilinks that go with it, which is never a bad thing. Havradim leaf a message 17:40, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

It only "generated a lot of interest" among Lira's fellow Russian propagandists who all ended up with egg on their face when their conspiracies where exposed as out-right lies in less than 4 days. BetsyRMadison (talk) 17:55, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

I agree w/ this viewpoint. It's not a very large portion of the article and reflects the coverage, so I don't think WP:UNDUE or anything applies. To me, if it the whole thing is a hoax (and I have my own personal suspicions, but there is simply no way to tell right now w/o more coverage), it actually interests me because of the role of disinformation in this conflict. Cononsense (talk) 23:49, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

1) He is not notable 2) The only thing in the fringe "Echo Chamber" was his "abduction" and "resurrection" to the fringe he is notable. 3) There are no mainstream sources - the whole article is supported by questionable sources all of which "call him out" for being evil and bizarre blogger 4) His treatment is not consistent to context "WP:Don't lie" which has nothing to do with the call for recentism, it is actually just puffer 5) I think we should wait a month or two and take another vote on article deletion 71.203.10.104 (talk) 19:28, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

The archived webpages are better than the news.

The archived webpages of his YouTube channels that I have added show that he has purged both "Coach Red Pill" and "Gonzola Lira" channels. This was removed because they are "Lira's personal blogs", but that's wrong since they are no blogs but YouTube channels, and the pages were archives thereof, not direct links. Metro Siberia (talk) 22:05, 10 May 2022 (UTC) ----<--- — Metro Siberia (talk) joined wikipedia today, immediately removed the 'notability Tag' & has made few or no other edits outside this topic. BetsyRMadison (talk) 01:59, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

YouTube videos (video bloggers) are not WP:RS.--Ermenrich (talk) 22:06, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

They might be useful as external links, but definitely not as inline citations. Havradim leaf a message 22:16, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

If it's the subjects YTC, it could have some WP:ABOUTSELF use. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:46, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Kharkov, Isreal, and Socks

Looks to me that Wikipedia is being used as a propaganda tool. 73.23.68.218 (talk) 18:00, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Change to YouTube channel

Recent edits changed the YouTube channel from this to this. Can anyone confirm that the 2nd is indeed his channel as well. Should both be listed? --ZimZalaBim ^talk 21:07, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

He has had multiple channels, and Avica1998 changed it to his current one which is "Gonzalo Lira II", which I think makes sense. Havradim leaf a message 15:57, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

When he was kidnapped then they stole all his social media accounts and passwords from him. That's why he had to restart fresh new ones for all his social media. Mathmo ^Talk 15:03, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

You mean "if he was kidnapped". We have no source for any of that besides Lira himself and his pro-Kremlin fellow travelers. Also, when a government seizes someone, it's generally called "arresting".--Ermenrich (talk) 15:06, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

What evidence do you have of him lying? If he did, then he went to a lot of trouble to do it! (including throwing away all his social media accounts! wtf, you seriously think he did that just for a lie?? That's a major sacrifice! You don't do that unless you're forced to) And got a lot of other people involved in the very elaborate plan too? No, that's not reasonable. And yes, when government "arrests" opposition journalists (or politicians etc) who they don't like, that does indeed come across to me as "kidnapping".Mathmo ^Talk 18:07, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Former dispute resolution

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Archive_99#Talk%3AGonzalo_Lira 666hopedieslast (talk) 10:43, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

“Death”

The sources added to show that he died are not reliable. One is the Helsinki Times, noted for spreading Chinese disinformation. The other, The Post Millennial, has a similarly shady history and is also sourcing its story to Tucker Carlson. These are not sources on which to base any factual statements, and they don’t show notability of Lira outside of the pro-Russian information bubble.—Ermenrich (talk) 13:54, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

His death has received significant coverage in Spanish-language sources, especially in Chilean mainstream media, such as La Tercera. There are also news reports on the efforts by members of Parliament and the Journalists' College (Colegio de Periodistas) regarding Lira's state. Bedivere (talk) 22:02, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Newsweek reported on his death and they say they got confirmation from the State Department. 84.87.206.123 (talk) 22:43, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Since the death was also reported in Newsweek, I think we can restore the article and remove it from the draft. Now his figure is definitely better known internationally. Mhorg (talk) 16:47, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Does dying really make him notable? — Red XIV ^(talk) 01:17, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

dying in a prison for political crimes? Yes 85.52.203.254 (talk) 07:52, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Dying by the hands of Ukraine intelligence services indeed does make him notable. 217.74.153.166 (talk) 08:24, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

The article is already available in 10 different languages,[46] including Ukrainian. I think it is time to release the English version.--Mhorg (talk) 16:56, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

I agree. Given the article is available in 10 different languages, and that Newsweek reported on his death, and that he was an American citizen, I am going to review the draft as an article for creation now. Thank you, Bedivere and Mhorg for providing helpful facts.--FeralOink (talk) 17:46, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm not crazy about use of the Post-Millennial in general. For his death, I am going to change it to Newsweek only, as that is sourced directly to the U.S. State Department.--FeralOink (talk) 21:56, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

The Helsinki Times is still cited on the article. It's obviously not a reliable source and contains phrases taken directly from Russian propaganda sources like "the Zelensky regime," "the eight-year-long shelling of Donbas residents by Kyiv," and emotional language like "tragic death", "another blow for press freedom," "poignant note", and describes Lira uncritically as a journalist and "a vocal critic of what he perceived as increasing authoritarianism in Ukraine". This clearly has no place in the article.--Ermenrich (talk) 17:11, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Just because you don't like it doesn't make it less reliable. Leave your bias at home 90.174.5.184 (talk) 07:59, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

The source is reliable in this case, because western media refuses to cover Ukraine killing dissidents and journalists. Its all we have. 217.74.153.166 (talk) 08:23, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Any source that relies on the Russian narrative that there’s a vast conspiracy of Western Media not to cover something (whether “dombing Bonbas” or some other hidden thing like Ukrainian attack ducks) is by definition not reliable.—-Ermenrich (talk) 13:32, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Deaths in 2024

Why has Gonzalo Lira’s death not been listed in Wikipedia’s list of deaths in 2024? He is obviously dead and was a notable figure with his own page prior to his death. 47.151.23.99 (talk) 15:17, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

He was nowhere near notable. BeŻet (talk) 15:51, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Do we have a non-Ukraine-affiliated source stating specifically that he was divulging Ukrainian troop movements?

As far as I looked the Independent only refers to him spreading Russian propaganda. CVDX (talk) 13:26, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

The source of the assumption that he spied on Ukrainian troops is from a note about an unidentified milblogger, that lived in Kirovohrad Oblast while he lived in Kharkiv Oblast. Also the milblogger of the source was charged with a different Article114-2 while Lira was charged with Article 436-2. 170.239.49.231 (talk) 13:55, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

I believe the IP may be correct. I just saw something very similar in the Bulwark story, cited to a linked New Voice of Ukraine. Pretty far down under a graphic or photo. Elinruby (talk) 12:42, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Use of court records is WP:OR

I agree with the addition of the {{primary}} tag and the edit summary from Volunteer Marek here. Court records are primary sources, and their use to reconstruct the timeline of legal proceedings against Lira is original research. In this case, there is an additional reliability concern, in that many of the records appear to be translations from Ukrainian posted to archive.org by pseudonymous users. The authenticity and accuracy of translation of such documents is uncertain. For these reasons, everything in the "Criminal prosecution" section that is not sourced to reliable secondary sources should be removed. That appears to be everything from "On March 29, 2023..." (inclusive) to "In December 2023..." (exclusive), with the exceptions of the bail amount, statements from Russian and U.S. officials, the allegation and denial of torture, and the attempted Hungarian border crossing. Those exceptions should be kept or removed based on a separate analysis of their sourcing. Jfire (talk) 16:45, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

I agree with your and Volunteer Marek's analysis.--Ermenrich (talk) 17:27, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

They are completely non-rs. I think there is far too many to leave in. They should be removed. scope_creep^Talk 17:41, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

I've removed a bit of the sourcing to WP:PRIMARY and OR in the section, but its quite tangled with the court cases.--Ermenrich (talk) 22:56, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for cleaning this up, and nice work! Jfire (talk) 04:49, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Description in first sentence as "novelist and film maker"

Should Lira be described as a novelist and film maker in the first sentence of this article when he is primarily known as a manosphere and then pro-Russian YouTuber? I don't dispute that he wrote novels or made films, but his novels were written in the 1990s, and his last film was made in 2005. None of his books or films seem to have been great successes so that people are likely to look him up because of them. I'd suggest rewording so that the fact that he both wrote novels and made films is mentioned in the first paragraph, but not in the first sentence.--Ermenrich (talk) 22:42, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Actually, given what he's known for, I'd say a lot of the article more should be about his pro-Russian activities compared to the amount currently spent discussing his unremarkable writing and film-making careers.--Ermenrich (talk) 01:30, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

No, the lede will need to be slimmed. Its usual bullshit about he's this and that. For example, I don't think he is a film-director. He has directed one film but that doesn't make a person a film-director. The rest will need to be looked at, on a individual basis. The thing about being a youtuber. Its well outside consensus for being youtuber. You need a least 500k streamers to be called a youtuber. So that will need to be looked at. That whole article needs slimmed. scope_creep^Talk 01:45, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, he was a novelist -- he received a $1 million advance and wrote two novels that were published by major U.S. publishing houses. Yes, he was a film director -- on its opening weekend his film was #2 at the Chilean box office. We have reliable sources that say these things. We don't omit them just because they happened in the 1990s or 2000s -- that's WP:RECENTISM. Jfire (talk) 02:45, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

That is not what I stated: Per long established consensus you must show an established career path to be called a particular job-type in Wikipedia. I found one film he directed. Even making two films doeesn't make you a film director. As far as I can see has made one film and possibly a short. That doesn't make you a film-director. scope_creep^Talk 08:26, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

I agree with scope creep. We of course should mention that he engaged in these things, but the current way the lead is worded makes it sounds like this is why he is notable. It's not (and I'm not convinced he's notable anyway). What I mean is this, if you mention Gonzalo Lira to someone, assuming they know who he is, their first thought is not going to be "Oh yes! The Chilean novelist and filmmaker!" It's going to be "Oh yes, the pro-Russian/manosphere YouTuber!".--Ermenrich (talk) 15:16, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Should the article be moved to higher level protection to prevent vandalism?

Given the topic, I believe it makes sense to add higher protection to the article. NesserWiki (talk) 23:45, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it can and should have page protection given it falls under Wikipedia:Contentious topics. Jfire (talk) 00:06, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Agree.—-Ermenrich (talk) 03:10, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and made a request [47]. Not sure if that was the best place to do it, but after an IP just called the project Ukraine flag on my bio a "Nazi flag" while reverting me I think we need to act now rather than later.--Ermenrich (talk) 18:11, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Oh, wow. Thank you for making a request. NesserWiki (talk) 21:19, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

It was denied.—Ermenrich (talk) 21:49, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

A different admin has now granted it for 1 year.—Ermenrich (talk) 23:39, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

ToBeFree? If so he is now an Arbitrator, and he went ahead and did that after I asked him how to get it done. My mind went to Arbcom because there was just a discussion there about extending sourcing requirements to Eastern Europe in general Elinruby (talk) 14:37, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Continued additions of people denouncing Lira's death

@JSwift49:: you've now added various Chinese, Russian, or far-right sources denouncing Lira's death, often with strange sourcing (an Alternative for Germany member of the European Parliament's comment sourced to a Serbian website, for instance). None of these comments are notable unless they are reported by mainstream secondary sources - not the South China Morning Post, TASS, etc. If mainstream sources pick up the story, they will include mention of far-right outrage and then we can source that. Until that time, just picking random people who said that Lira dying is bad (particularly sources associated with the Russian or Chinese government, countries that don't give a damn about press freedom since they don't have it), is WP:UNDUE and not WP:NPOV.--Ermenrich (talk) 15:57, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

I looked in the list here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources and saw South China Morning Post as a reliable source, and I also saw that TASS was considered reliable for quotes from Russian authorities, so that's why I included those. I don't see why the country of origin matters so long as the source is considered reliable, however if a random pro-Russia European Parliament member or columnist criticizing the death isn't notable, I can accept that. JSwift49 16:13, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

I'd be fine with including the SCMP piece as an attributed opinion (even though I personally disagree with many of its conclusions). Although this is a heavily politicized event and we do have to be careful about WP:UNDUE weight, if we're going to include an attributed opinion from The Bulwark (which does have a recognizable pro-Western POV), then I think an attributed opinion from an alternative viewpoint is fair. I would dispute characterizations of the SCMP reference as "random", "associated with the Chinese government", or "far-right" (Ermenrich, I'm not saying you did characterize this source specifically in those ways, just that it could be a possible objection). As JSwift49 notes, SCMP is considered a generally reliable source, and this topic is outside the carveouts (CCP, Alibaba) that WP:SCMP notes. Furthermore the author seems to have a legitimate journalistic career. Maybe the objection is that the headline says "journalist"? If so, see WP:HEADLINES. Jfire (talk) 05:06, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

I’d support removing the Bulwark piece as well honestly. The article on the SCMP says that since the clamp down in Hongkong it’s become associated with Chinese soft power propaganda: certainly whenever I have read a story on the war there it’s been obviously pro-Russian.—Ermenrich (talk) 13:55, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

YouTube statistics

I've started a discussion at the WP:RSN about our current use of Social Blade to source YouTube statistics for the Coach Red Pill channel. Beyond whether the source is reliable, is this information WP:DUE for inclusion?--Ermenrich (talk) 16:19, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

It's not essential, I'd be fine with removing if the conclusion is that Social Blade is not-RS. Jfire (talk) 05:09, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Did some tagging

since I find I am repeating myself at the AfD, and FOX News and Newsweek were still being used, i have been removing them and tagged some of the most egregious remaining sources (Firearms News, genealogy sites) as needing better sources. Elinruby (talk) 14:45, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Sourcing for "Career"

Elinruby, thanks for your attention to source quality. You added a couple {{bsn}} tags in the Career section where I'm not sure what your concern is.

• Released in January 1998, Counterparts follows the exploits of a fierce female Federal Bureau of Investigationagent and her "counterpart", an ambitious Central Intelligence Agency operative. [48] Can you elaborate on why you believe that Kirkus Reviews is an inadequate source for the sentence of plot summary and the fact of the book's release date?
• For Newsday, Jane Goldman wrote that it was "far-fetched and heartless... as arrogant and clever as its hero". [49] Why would Newsday not be an adequate source for the attributed opinion of its book critic?

Thanks, Jfire (talk) 14:51, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

they are both about as useful as an opinion cited to me. Newsday is a great source for Long Island and New York City but thia is not that. i keep hearing that there.are all these sources. Use something else. And please explain to whoever went to town at newspapers.com that the topic area has higher standards and some of the other odd sources (Cyprus Mail, Orlando Sentinel) for this article probably don't make the cut either. In other words beyond the souce iffiness there are also big questions of DUE. Elinruby (talk) 15:03, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Newsday has won 19 Pulitzer Prizes, including in the category of criticism. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 16:06, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

I see no problems with the sources used. No evidence has been presented that they are unreliable and there is nothing indicating it in their wiki articles. Each is used for just one sentence, so I don't see how WP:DUE is relevant either. Alaexis_¿question? 17:23, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Contentious topics in case you missed it at the top of the page Elinruby (talk) 15:07, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I am aware of the contentious topics procedure and the fact that this page is covered by it. I don't see how that is related to my question however. Regarding Newsday, I don't see how the fact that it covers the Long Island and New York City region in its news reporting is relevant. We are not citing its news coverage, we are citing a book review. There is no policy that says that book reviews are reliable sources only if they are published in a source whose news reporting specializes in a particular region.

To seek a wider consensus, I've opened a thread at the Reliable Sources noticeboard. Jfire (talk) 15:35, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

WP:CONTEXTMATTERS. To answer someone else at the same time, I saw the Pulitzers, but if they are for local news reporting for example, that would not necessarily mean that they know anything about Russian disinformation campaigns. If on the other hand the review was written by a staffer (vs the more usual scenario where they pull it off the newswire to plug a hole in the advertising), and one or more of the Pulitzers is for reviews, that might be ok. But as I said to someone else, if all of this is so blindingly obvious then you should be able to source it without resorting to the Orlando Sentinel and the Cyprus Mail. I did see, after I posted that, that you have marked yourself aware of contentious topics, or you would have been one of the people I gave a notice to about that. Elinruby (talk) 22:47, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

We're talking about a book review, written in 1998. "Russian disinformation campaigns" aren't a relevant concern in relation to the material you marked as needing a better source. Consensus here and at WP:RSN is clear: these sources are perfectly adequate for the material they cite. I'll be removing the tags. Jfire (talk) 00:14, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Not that you actually need to be great at covering Russian disinformation campaigns to do a review of a work of fiction, but if you've actually seen the Pulitzers that Newsday has won, then you would know that they have won multiple times in the category of "international reporting", and yes, as was posted above, they have won in the category of criticism, which is where reviews of cultural items fall. And when you talk about "resorting" to the Orlando Sentinel, you are again talking about a paper with multiple Pulitzers. This just seems to be a random rejection of sources. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 00:22, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

What categories are the Pulitzers in, please? Possibly there may be some reassurance there.

But what I see is an article about a man who can't be believed cited to many very obscure and difficult to verify sources. *I mean. Firearms News? Cyprus Mail?

• And when they are checked, the statements are often at least somewhat wrong. Someone just claimed on their talk page for example that one of the books was a best seller, based on a purported advance from the publisher, and it looks like he himself may be the source for that advance. I'm still trying to nail that down because the source for that is a scanned paper clipping in Spanish.
• Google cannot find the supposed review by the Washington Post with the given citation information, although possibly a different headline is the problem there.
• The sourcing *is* improving but initially included TASS, Newsweek and the Times of India.
• People are putting sources back in because they are only "no consensus" and not actually deprecated, even though the article is in two different categories of contentious topics. So naturally all this has increased the level of suspicion and while editors fight tooth and nail for these sources, some are simultaneously claiming that sources are very thick on the ground yet the additional sources turn out to be more obscure and dubious publications. In contentious topics you are supposed to do more than meet a bare minimum of what might maybe be reliable: one of the reviews seems to be cited to a dust cover

The most relevant are from 1982 (television) and 1984 (invasion of Granada). Quotes are from the Pulitzer site

Newsday's Pulitzers: the most relevant are from 1982 (television}

• 1974: Criticism (Winner) — Emily Genauer, Newsday Syndicate "art and artists"
• 1982: International Reporting (Finalist) — Bob Wyrick "For his series on the distribution abroad of American-made products in ways that would be held illegal or improper in the U.S. itself."
• 1982: Criticism (Finalist) — Marvin Kitman: television
• 1984: International Reporting (Finalist) — Morris Thompson invasion of Grenada

1984: Criticism (Finalist) — Dan Cryer: architecture

• 1985: International Reporting (Winner) — Josh Friedman, Dennis Bell, and Ozier Muhammad: "For their series on the plight of the hungry in Africa."
• 1992: International Reporting (Winner) — Patrick J. Sloyan Gulf War
• 1993: International Reporting (Winner) — Roy Gutman: "human rights violations in Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina."
• 1996: International Reporting (Finalist) — Laurie Garrett: Ebola in Zaire
• 1999: Criticism (Finalist) — Justin Davidson
• 2002: Criticism (Winner) — Justin Davidson: classical music
• 2005: International Reporting (Winner) — Dele Olojede: RwandaElinruby (talk) 02:19, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

The point of pointing to the Pulitzers is that you were putting better-source-needed tags without seeming to know much about the source you were complaining about, which is a very respected newspaper. No, they don't have to have won Pulitzers exactly on some topic for that to be the truth. Please save better-source-needed tags for times when you can actually find the deficiencies in the source. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 02:49, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

You assumed a very great deal based on something for sure. I am going to assume you hadn't seen my post about this. And by the way the tabloid I was referring to was generic, not Newsday specifically. I see Newsday as individual articles and don't care about its print format. Can we focus please? I am impressed that it got a prize in Rwanda and another in Croatia but so? Elinruby (talk) 11:21, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

let me not forget architecture. Orlando Sentinel's are all three of them about Florida. Just saying. Elinruby (talk) 11:23, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

@Elinruby: can you please clarify your concern with the sources citing The coming-of-age novel, Tomáh Errázurih, was published by Grijalbo/Mondadori in 1997? You wrote this is an entry in a library database. It proves the article exists but no more. The library in question is the National Library of Chile and the database is an archive of Chilean literary criticism. They provide a scan of the entire article, not just an "entry". It would be preposterous to suggest that they are fabricating articles which do not exist. So I don't understand your objection. Jfire (talk) 01:24, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

I am not saying that the Library of Chile makes stuff up. What I am saying that an entry in their holdings listings demonstrates that the book exists but does not support "coming of age" for example. And even if it does contain a publish date it is not substantive discussion by a secondary source. There are all these other sources, you say; pick one. Probably one of the reviews will have it probably. Elinruby (talk) 01:51, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Please do not continue to mischaracterize the sources. They are not entries "in their holdings listings". They are full-length newspaper articles demonstrating the attention paid to Lira in Chile in the wake of his US book deal. The La Tercera source says, for example: A raíz de este éxito, Lira recibió la oferta de publicar en Chile su primera novela, escrita en 1990, la que había sido rechazada por las editoriales en 1991. Se titula Tomah Errázurih y será lanzada en agosto por Grijalbo... Este relato, ambientado en 1988, narra un día de un cuico de 19 años, que recotre Santiago. Observa, opina y crítica. Está escrito en un habla coloquial, más aún, siguiendo el sonido de las palabras y alterando la ortografía. Lira está convencido de que va a ser un éxito, porque su anterior rechazo no se habría debido a la calidad del texto, expresa, sino a la falta de contactos. The Mercurio source says Posteriormente trabajo como profesor de inglés y escribió su primera novela en castellano de título "Tomah Errazurih" que narraba un día de Tomás, un "Cuico" santiaguino, la cual concluyó en 1991. Al terminar el libro, lo registro. Pero al buscar editoriales, todas le cerraron las puertas, constituyéndose en una de sus grandes frustraciones. If your objection is specifically to "coming of age", well, you could have said that in your edit summary. The Reisman source that is already used elsewhere in the article says His second book, written in Spanish, was a coming-of-age novel, Tomáh Errázurih and I will add that as a third citation. (Meanwhile we have another editor objecting below that two references after a sentence is already too many. There's no satisfying those who would rather see this article deleted.) Jfire (talk) 02:40, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

You are assuming that I actually care. It should never have been created but that doesn't mean that at this point we should delete it. It's probably too late for that. Note that I have not voted.

However if we must have it I don't see why you feel a need to pile the references up. Just use the best one.

I am not contradicting Scope creep btw. There's one place where I left three references but we can group them later. Usually though, he is right, one is enough.

La Tercerais questionable; in one of our references it was citing Sputnik'.

PS: please do not continue to ask me not to continue doings things I am not doing.

We're talking about the source published by the national library that contains bibliographical information only? That is their record about a physical book. You say the full text is there also. I have said I will look again. As for Tercera, say what? Also, why are we using ria.ru again?

Here's the diff: [50]. You added {{bsn}} after citations to these sources:

1. Baden, Denise (December 10, 1996). "El hombre del million de dolares" [The million dollar man]. El Mercurio. Archived (PDF) from the original on 2022-04-21. Retrieved 2022-04-21.
2. Gómez, Andrés (1997-07-06). ""A muchos críticos chilenos les va a cargar mi éxito"" ["Many Chilean critics are going to be bothered by my success"]. La Tercera. pp. 56–57.

If you are mistaking these sources as being "their record about a physical book" containing "bibliographical information only", then perhaps you should not be adding {{bsn}} tags. Jfire (talk) 03:41, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Salem Press

We have several citations of "Gonzalo Lira" by Rosemary M. Canfield Reisman in Guide to Literary Masters & Their Works published in 2007 by Salem Press. For example this is our only source for his film "So Kinky", which appears to have no other reference on the internet that does not use this Wikipedia article as a source. I cannot see this as I do not have access to Ebscohost. Is it definitely a reliable source? If not, we need to remove mention of the film. BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:39, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

You might have access through WP:LIBRARY. Salem Press seems to be a publisher of reference works, either licensed or acquired by EBSCO. I think that generally sources indexed by EBSCO are presumed reliable unless there's some sort of evidence otherwise. See for example Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 31#Ebsco a reliable source. Jfire (talk) 16:07, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

I wondered the same thing and would encourage looking into it at RSN since we rely on it so heavily. And no, we can't rely on it just because of Ebsco. Most of what is in those databases is reliable but not everything. Maybe try "Gonzalo+Lira+disinformation" Elinruby (talk) 16:24, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

(later, having reread the source a bit) This seems like hagiography but you're right in that I'd feel silly taking this to RSN, there is that much of a presumption. Does it actually say anything that another source doesn't? I just can't take it seriously somehow, and it seems to detract overall. Elinruby (talk) 14:11, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

La Tercera

Says his family lost touch with him. Sources=Chilean equivalent of State Department and two tweets. Ok-ish wire story, it looks like. Annoying ads. But it doesn't support him claiming anything about the SBU Elinruby (talk) 11:38, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Several articles were quoted from this source. I removed one of them because it cites Sputnik. We should re-examine the others. Elinruby (talk) 23:36, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Cyprus Mail

This source makes me uneasy. More important though is that Though the somewhat shaken Lira did not provide details, it was apparent he had been held and interrogated by the SBU doesn't really validate claimed to have been detained by the Security Service of Ukraine (SBU) Elinruby (talk) 11:52, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

I agree, replaced it with this which is much better: [51] (from Chilean affiliate of Metro International) JSwift49 15:02, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

k. Plan to sit down and go through Spanish sources. I do read it but not fluently enough for anything likely to be nuanced, so I'll want to check myself with apps that only run on some of my devices.

Point is, thank you for making it easier to verify that one. Elinruby (talk) 12:04, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

i got interrupted part way through but I agree that this is a much better piece of journalism. With the kind of corporate background you're describing, it probably has at least come sort of editorial process, but it does give some details I have not seen elsewhere

(suspended from Dartmouth for example, and that his parents had supported Pinochet) that perhaps we should include. Elinruby (talk) 15:31, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't speak Spanish, but through Google Translate I couldn't find anything about a suspension from Dartmouth? I did find that he supported Pinochet though. JSwift49 18:02, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

i think it says his parents were, about half-way down. (checking) I did say parents. However in the lede it calls Lira himself a Pinochiste, or some similar word. Spanish does use that sort of construction quite frequently to indicate political supporters. I first read this word as liar (ie from Pinocchio) but given the later remark about the parents i think it means Pinochet supporter. It would be nice to be right about that however. I will find the Spanish quotes for you if you want. You are right to check. We should not rely on my Spanish for anything controversial or complicated, though it is adequate for stuff like "the city was invaded in year x by caudillo y"...But this is also why I semi-questioned the reliability of the source. Oh I just reread and saw that you agreed about that. Hang on and let me make sure of what I am saying about Dartmouth if you can't find it.Elinruby (talk) 19:02, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

so, you are correct, it isn't in that source. I can't put my hands on it right now. Guessing it's in a link off one of the sources. Obviously we aren't going to say that without a source, and if it's important it should theoretically be in sources somewhere and come back up. I'll note it right away this time when it does. The significance of it was that it involved misogyny and possibly sexual assault.

As to details in the Metro source though, I also saw Pinochet in another Spanish-language source, so that is interesting and would explain a tolerance for totalitarians. That source also says he was "expelled" from the hotel where journalists were staying, which seems relevant. Elinruby (talk) 23:47, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

@JSwift49: found it. [52] I think good school newspapers are reliable for on-campus events etc, and ABOUTSELF might apply, with attribution of course, because what he says about himself isn't necessarily true either. Thoughts? Elinruby (talk) 02:32, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Oh that's interesting. I think it could be put in, sure, with appropriate attribution/hedging. JSwift49 03:22, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Just right after the first mention of Dartmouth: Lira wrote in a (date) column in the Dartmouth student newspaper (name) that he had been suspended in his freshman year due to a complaint from a female student

? Elinruby (talk) 03:47, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't have a problem, though I couldn't find any secondary sources that mentioned it, up to you if you think it's worthwhile JSwift49 21:38, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

It adds color to the dating coach thing. I might add it. I want to finish going through the Danish language sources anyway for overcite, and I think one of them mentioned it Elinruby (talk) 11:21, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

LA Times

it's firewalled paywalled and while that does count, the accessible Orlando Sentinel covers this point, so I would like to replace the Times with the more easily verified Sentinel. Anybody going to get mad if I do that? Elinruby (talk) 15:54, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

I've replaced the ProQuest link with a non-paywalled link for the LA Times. The Orlando Sentinel reference is not a suitable replacement because it does not detail how the book came to be published in the way the LA Times article does. Jfire (talk) 16:07, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

sounds reasonable Elinruby (talk) 16:10, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

@Jfire: can you make the paywall go away for the Globe and Mail also? Elinruby (talk) 16:34, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

I didn't find a non-paywalled version of this article. However, the LA Times says the same thing as the Globe and Mail but in more depth, so I replaced the citation for that sentence. Jfire (talk) 16:43, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Ref 19 a proquest ref, would ideally be replaced with a source ref to the document itself. Ref 1 needs to go really. It makes no sense. Anybody looking at it will be turned-off. Its non-rs. Either that reformat it so closer to the source document scope_creep^Talk 17:59, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Some questions about article quality

The question being a youtuber and a dating coach need to be examined. Being on a youtuber on Wikipedia needs secondary sourcing and needs a least 500k streams and he misses by a long way. The 500k figure was upped from 250k in 2016/2017 when folk taking on mountains of streamers, so as to differentiate the regular from the influencers. The "dating coach", self-styled seems to indicate it may be not valid, although the Jacobin ref clearly states he was in the supposed toxic manosphere thing and that is a solid source. If he had been doing it for a decade or more then yea. It would need corraborating evidence. I'm glad the question of film director has been answered. The lede looks look better.

The question of 2-refs per sentence. Why are they two refs per sentence, which is particularly bug-bear at NPP. I would suggest the worst of each is removed, when the referencing problem is resolved. It is suffering from WP:CITEKILL at the moment. scope_creep^Talk 17:59, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

SF Examiner

While this is on the face of it a pretty good source for the article, it jumps to page 11, which we do not have. Elinruby (talk) 21:14, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Unfortunately newspapers.com doesn't allow me to create a clipping from multiple pages. In this case it doesn't matter -- although the review indeed continues on page 11, all the material needed to verify critic Patricia Holt identified it as following a trend in mainstream commercial publishing of replacing what would conventionally be a male character with a female is on the first page, namely the following:

As noted previously, the New York Times reported last year that women buy far more commercial fiction than men, and as a consequence, editors are rejecting manuscripts with traditional male protagonists and telling writers to use strong female characters instead. But nobody seems to have cautioned writers that you can't just replace Mr. Tough Guy with Ms. Tough Gal without causing some smirks and giggles among readers. In COUNTERPARTS by Gonzalo Lira (Putnam; 343 pages; $24.95), for example, who should be racing out of her son's soccer game in Washington, D.C., and "driving like a demon" to RFK Stadium but Margaret Chisholm, a "little suburban house.

Secondly, as a reminder, internet accessibility is not a requirement for sources. This would have been a perfectly acceptable reference even if I hadn't purchased a newspapers.com subscription and made a clipping of this source. It is convenient, but by no means necessary, for the archived copy to be accessible via the Internet. –– WP:PUBLISHED. Jfire (talk) 01:10, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes yes of course all this would be just fine if he was running for mayor of Davenport Iowa. But this is not that, it's Russian propaganda we helped to create. Which is still at work. I think that raises the threshold for due diligence a fair bit, given the history of hijinks on this article. It may be that an article can be built about the YouTubers as a group. But it would need to be very well sourced, because it seems like if we have the article it should follow its best sources. And its best sources say he's a shill, right?

If you're seeing a link to full text, otoh, then maybe it's an OS thing; I'll check later on my laptop. Elinruby (talk) 02:17, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

In what way is this article Russian propaganda? It's pretty clear about him spreading Russian disinformation/propaganda himself, and it doesn't treat the torture/killing allegations with undue weight. JSwift49 21:40, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

As written, it built him up as a credible source, glorified the failed dating advice, failed economic blogging and failed filmmaking, glosses over the fact that these books just barely saw print and that he was a manipulative loser with a need to feel important. The more seriously we take all that the more we feed the propaganda that he was some sort of martyred prisoner of conscience Elinruby (talk) 11:14, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

I generally agree that the article’s current focus on Lira’s not particularly notable or successful career as a novelist and filmmmaker seems designed to take attention away from his activities in Ukraine. That’s what he’s known for and that’s what the article should focus on, not some books that got panned in the 90s.—-Ermenrich (talk) 13:43, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

However, yeah, I agree the novels are given too much weight, I will work on trimming that section now. JSwift49 14:30, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

It does not glorify it is clear that he spread disinformation and if his books received reviews/coverage, that's just a fact of life. The lead is about his activities in Ukraine as well so that's what the emphasis remains on. JSwift49 14:03, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

that's fine as long as we keep it straight straight that it is not the case that he was also a life coach, dating coach and a film director and an auteur and a princess and the pony the princess rode in on also. I think it is notable as a disinformation tactic. See Ruslan Kotsaba also. Elinruby (talk) 17:00, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

I can definitely see the problem with too much emphasis on his novels, as if we take the time to about the origins or backstories of novels it does imply they are more significant than they are. So I think we've hit a good medium on coverage now. IMO some aspects (being called the 'highest paid Chilean author in the world', having his film #2 on the box office his opening weekend) are important to mention, but stuff like 'the manuscript was pulled from a slush pile' is too much. JSwift49 18:01, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't per se object to the slush pile, which if true is worth a raised eyebrow. The cookie-cutter reviews are just filler though and there is enough else to talk about. What percentage of spy novels is reviewed by Kirkus? I suspecr it's high.

Game Developer and Washington Post

Being signed into the Wikipedia Library isn't helping with the Ebsco paywall. I was able to find an open-access link to the Washington Post review, and replaced the link to the paywalled version with it. I still think these reviews are probably undue, but it will be easier to discuss this if people can actually read the reviews.

For Game Developer the question is again due weight. I have verified that it does say that Lira was involved as a writer, way way way down the page. Is this an important point? It's definitely not what he is famous for. Elinruby (talk) 01:24, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Hmm. I thought GameDeveloper would be reasonable to add only because the game itself seems notable, and the article makes it seem like he played a significant role in plot development. JSwift49 03:43, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Yeah that is a question. I was thinking about the tinker tailor soldier sailor nature of his career path, and yeah, it does sound like he did a lot there. I just don't know how much weight to give it because I don't follow gaming, shrug. If it's important it's important. We don't have to decide this right now either. Elinruby (talk) 04:00, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

The weight is fine. It's 15 words in a ~3,500 word article. The reviews establish Lira's notability per WP:AUTHOR and are also WP:DUE. Jfire (talk) 03:55, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

which particular aspects of that policy do you see him as meeting? Elinruby (talk) 04:03, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

The person has created or played a major role in co-creating a significant or well-known work or collective body of work and The person's work (or works) has ... won significant critical attention. The consensus interpretation of these criteria as they relate to authors is recorded as WP:LITERATUREOUTCOMES, which says Published authors are kept as notable if they have received multiple independent reviews of or awards for their work. Jfire (talk) 04:10, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

he's very far from receiving multiple awards. The two and a half reviews consist of two paragraphs each saying that the two English-language books are terrible. I see why people fought so hard to keep them though; apparently the suggestion is that panning his books makes him notable as a collaborator? Elinruby (talk) 12:47, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Keep

Since my vote did not count, I want to make it clear that this article is relevant, since the Chilean Foreign Ministry confirmed his death. The article has enough notable and valuable references. It is developed encyclopedically. My position is that it be maintained, maintained, maintained. 57ntaledane9 (talk) 04:45, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

@57ntaledane9: I informed admin on the simple english wikipedia about your blatant canvassing for your Afd. scope_creep^Talk 08:50, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

@Scope creep: The article stands and cannot be refuted. When are there legal bases that demonstrate the relevance of the topic? @Scope creep: well I see where the matter is going 57ntaledane9 (talk) 16:39, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

i'm sorry but that sentence doesn't make any sense. Assuming that you are just confused because you got here after prior discussions, the assertion is that he is a notable blogger because two and a half reviews panned his book. I'm not actually sure the third book was ever even published. It hadn't been when Miramax bought the film rights. And the Spanish-language didn't get picked up until the publishing deal in the States.

But anyway, if it's the books that make him notable then maybe all that free speech stuff is off-topic?

Scope creep said there were specific standards for vloggers. Did he meet those? Elinruby (talk) 18:26, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 January 2024

"The neutrality of this article is disputed." 158.96.4.13 (talk) 19:26, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Liu1126 (talk) 19:52, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Blogging

Morning @Elinruby: How long was blogging for, I wonder if the source says so. scope_creep^Talk 11:40, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

about Ukraine? a few months maybe. About the same for his economic forecasts, is my impression. They were all pretty whack-a-doodle and all failed to come true. Manosphere stuff might have gone on for a couple of years. I can keep an eye out for dates as I go through again. i just noticed that the Metro source seems to use the word "Nazi" as a synonym for "Ukrainian, could you check me on that? i think Google Translate works on that one -- it's the clippings embedded in the page where it doesn't, like the million dollar man source. Thanks Elinruby (talk) 11:56, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Which source is that, one of the ones scope creep removed? Anything that uses Nazi to mean Ukrainian definitely should not be cited here.—Ermenrich (talk) 13:40, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

There are four mentions of Nazis in the article, all of which make clear to me that this was what Lira/Putin tried to sell people as versions of Ukrainians, none treat those claims that they are Nazis as fact. JSwift49 14:06, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

It replaced Cyprus Mail. I said it was a better piece of journalism because clearly some research was done, vs the Cyprus Mail piece. It is possible that I missed the nuance JSwift49 is talking about; take a look. Google translate works on the page Elinruby (talk) 18:33, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

I think something in favor of the article as well is that it brings in an expert, "Felipe González, director of the Observatory of Politics and Social Networks of the U. Central", who says “It is very difficult to think about the veracity of the data in a conflict. There is a lot of first-hand information, because people record it, but we know that people spread information because it has emotional content; therefore, almost no one verifies the source.” It's not a propaganda piece by any means JSwift49 19:32, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Possible that I read too fast. I'll come back to this

Elinruby (talk) 22:56, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Removal of reliable sources per WP:CITEKILL

Hi @Scope creep:, given the compmlaints from several editors that there were not enough reliable sources on this article, plus the contentious nature of the material, I don't see how removing NYT, Sky News, TF1 sources etc is justified by WP:CITEKILL, two sources per claims is generally fine and I would argue desirable.

(Also the NYT article [53] calls him a 'commentator'). JSwift49 14:17, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

No, thats not the case at all. The article is excessively referenced by all standards. There have various discussions about it and it always comes to same standard which is one per. Its always been like that. If your doing it for everything, which is very easy to fall into, I do it myself, you eventually get pulled up for it. I've been pulled up for it in the past. One source for being a commentator is WP:NPOV and is undue, although it is good strong sources, generally multiple people in secondary sources over a very long period of time, sayin he is commentator is fine. They're is a spectrum, when you do GA reviews you see it. He commentated, but he wasn't a commentator. You would need to show more. scope_creep^Talk 14:42, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

I understand where you're coming from, but having read the WP:CITEKILL article, it says "A good rule of thumb is to cite at least one inline citation for each section of text that may be challenged or is likely to be challenged, or for direct quotations. Two or three may be preferred for more controversial material or as a way of preventing linkrot for online sources, but more than three should generally be avoided"

What I understood that to mean is, since this is controversial material, two sources per line are good, and we shouldn't remove reliable sources. If there are three sources, that would work for a line such as "His content was described as disinformation and propaganda" where multiple sources are needed to verify that claim. JSwift49 14:51, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

@JSwift49: In that case, you give an example of misinformation or propaganda and do a reference per the sentence. You don't pile on a list of reference. The reader won't look at them, perhaps the first, but if there is an example and its of a particular type with a linked references, then they will. That article needs copyedited. I do post cleanup for Coin. I've been doing for more 10 years now. I know the processes really well. Please do not edit war. If you plan to expand, then please say so, and I'll leave it for a week before the copyedit. scope_creep^Talk 15:01, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm just trying to understand what basis removing all these sources has in WP:CITEKILL, because I can't see it. And it not better, when you say that his content has been described more generally as propaganda, that you include three different sources saying the same thing, to ensure WP:NPOV? JSwift49 15:07, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

There is excessive references in that article and its currently WP:PUFF and probably WP:PROMO and fails WP:CITEKILL. If you think saving it in the current state then you need do the work, otherwise I'm going to copyedit it down what is considered standards on Wikipedia. I will give you a couple of days to do it. If you become disruptive I'm going to take you to the edit warring noticeboard. scope_creep^Talk 15:14, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Can you give me an example of how it is WP:PUFF and WP:PROMO. The reviews/backstory of the novels certainly were, but I removed those. JSwift49 15:16, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

And with the passage I cited from WP:CITEKILL it seems the number of references is perfectly in line with good practices. JSwift49 15:17, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

It not and your not taking it. I'm beyond caring at the moment. I'll be back in Friday or saturday to a copyedit. scope_creep^Talk 15:20, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Given the fact that editors had concerns earlier with the number of reliable sources, and given that each statement (except one) has no more than two, which is well in line with WP:CITEKILL best practices, you have failed to give a justification for unilaterally mass-removing sources. If you want to discuss and achieve consensus among editors that's fine but I will take you to the edit warring noticeboard if this continues JSwift49 15:53, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

I agree with JSwift49. scope_creep's interpretation of WP:CITEKILL is not backed by policy. Where material is contentious, or where a sentence may draw on material from both sources, there is absolutely nothing wrong with two citations, or even three in certain cases. Jfire (talk) 16:16, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't do CoI or NPP but I mostly agree with Scope creep. I liked the TF1 source but I hadn't looked very hard at it and I know he gets around in French pretty well so I trust his judgement of which were the best sources. This is however highly contentious stuff -- look at what I am saying about it -- and none of these sources meet the proposed sourcing standard except maybe for one about disinformation I haven't looked at yet. They do however meet current standards and the Daily Beast and the Bulwark are long-form journalism even if one of them calls him a sleaze and the other a shill.there may be a case for grouping some sources but but given what Scope is saying it is probably better to rewrite to avoid that. I think that first people should decide if he is a novelist or a blogger. Elinruby (talk) 21:12, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

IMO, having two good sources per statement is a way we can help ensure disinformation is not present in our article. While eliminating sources may sound intuitively appealing, it's also not backed by policy. I would say he is a novelist who later became a blogger :) JSwift49 22:12, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

PS if there is edit-warring going on my tolerance for that is quite low. I'm willing to help write this up as a disinformation tactic but I'm already considering taking Dream Focus to ANI, and I despise ANI sooo... is this man a novelist or a blogger? Elinruby (talk) 21:24, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

• The concern here, especially because of actions and statements in the recent AfD, is the attempt to remove references to make the article look visibly less well referenced. If the sources being removed via CITEKILL are just being repurposed and used elsewhere in the article (such as if they were already being used in more than one place), then that's fine. But if this removal is completely removing such high quality sources from the article entirely, then that isn't okay and gives the visible impression of continuing a more long-term effort to get the article deleted by making it visibly appear worse. Silverseren^C 22:00, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

  I think that's a valid concern, since scope_creep did remove several high quality sources from the article completely, and he was the one who originally put the article up for AfD. JSwift49 22:09, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

maybe put them in a Further Reading section. I think Scope creep does his wiki job in an honest way, for what it is worth. I know at one point we had about five articles saying he was out of touch for a week and that was way too many. I haven't looked at the new version yet and frankly am pretty tired of this article. If i was in an early AfD I probably argued for deletion. My current opinion is that it's probably too late for that thanks in large part to Wikipedia. (See discussion of circular reference further up the page). I am going to do something else for a while then come to grips with the Spanish-language sources later tonight. Elinruby (talk) 22:54, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Some of them could go in a further reading section, but the majority need to go that are excessive. For the rest of the argument, that is not a case of that all. I think it is more than borderline notable, although in a years time when the furore has died down, it might be another matter. Even then it would be enough for WP:BIO. The article was puffed up during period it was going through those previous Afd and it needs to depuffed. 50-odd references for a start article is excessive. It fails citekill by a long way and need to be copyedit down. This statement "having two good sources per statement is a way we can help ensure disinformation is not present" is bollocks and completly outside any wikipedia process or consensus. If you state that edit warring noticeboard they will block you. scope_creep^Talk 13:55, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Removing the article once the “furor has died down” would seem to be a violation of WP:RECENTISM, and also, the statement I cited from WP:CITEKILL supports the idea that for contentious material and to prevent link rot two sources per statement are often desirable. Are these any policies you can point to that contradict this? JSwift49 15:12, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

WP:RECENTISM is not a policy, just a frequently cited essay.

It's obvious that Lira's relative importance or lack of importance will become clearer over time. What's being written about him now is because he's died. If, in a year or two, no one cares about him anymore, it will be clear that this event did not have a significant impact on the world and this will (theoretically) let us know whether or not this entire article and/or the portrayal in sections of it is an example of "recentism". Or would you deny that the section on the death has not been "overburdened with documenting breaking news reports and controversy as it happens"?--Ermenrich (talk) 15:31, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

If you are deleting an article because the subject is not important now, even if it was considered notable in the past, isn't that by definition an imbalanced focus on recent events? Yes, if someone receives one temporary blip of news coverage and turns out to not be notable later, that's a different story, but this is someone who has received sustained coverage throughout years.

Regardless, if editors years from now look at this article and reach a consensus to delete, that's OK. My main point is that in no way merits the mass removal of reliable sources now. Nor have any good examples been given of how the article in its current state is WP:PUFF. The death section describes the events and notable perspectives concisely (the Bulwark article might be an exception, but I'm sure we can both agree it's a necessary counterbalance to the Russian perspective). JSwift49 16:35, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Novels

I believe that all of the stuff about his advance, the book reviews, etc. is WP:UNDUE on this page - Lira is not known for being a novelist. We should limit discussion of the novels to the bare fact of their existence and remove all of the material about how they were made etc. (I'd say that's all covered on the pages for the novels now, but I'm highly suspicious that those articles will not be there much longer.)--Ermenrich (talk) 14:57, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

I see that JSwift49 has already done this (the current edit warring must have obscured the changes). Consider this section in support of his change.--Ermenrich (talk) 14:59, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

I also removed the number of videos/subscribers he had (that to me is bordering on WP:PROMO). JSwift49 15:30, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Given the extensive press coverage in Chilean sources documenting how unprecedented it was for a Chilean-American novelist to receive a $1m advance in the 1990s, I think this is blatant WP:RECENTISM. Jfire (talk) 16:31, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Do Chilean sources now refer to him as a novelist? It might have been unprecedented in the 90s, but neither novel went anywhere.—-Ermenrich (talk) 16:37, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

La Tercera refers to him as having had a brief career as a writer [54] though not beyond that. I can get on board with referencing the million dollar advance though as that was notable in Chile at the time JSwift49 16:48, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Do Chilean sources now refer to him as a novelist? Yes. They did so in the '90s:

La noticia del escritor chileno que logró su primer contrato editorial por US$ 1 millón ha sido recibida con incredulidad y sorpresa por los escritores latinoamericanos. "Es absolutamente inhabitual que se pague una cifra tan alta para un novelista no conocido", señala Tomás Eloy Martínez, autor de Santa Evita. [55]

Conocido como el escritor del millón de dólares por el jugoso contrato que firmó con una famosa editorial norteamericana, el chileno Gonzalo Lira Rijke estará de vuelta en Chile en agosto para presentar aquí su primera novela, "Tomah Errázurih". Editada por Grijalbo, esta historia de un joven cuico de 18 años que vagabundea por Santiago después de haber sido expulsado de la universidad saldrá al mercado cinco meses antes que "Contraparte", novela por la cual la editorial Putnam le pagó esa abultada cifra como adelanto. [56]

And they do so now, for example [57] El cineasta, escritor de novelas policiales y youtuber and [58] cineasta y escritor de novelas policiales. Jfire (talk) 16:55, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

i deleted one La Tercera cite because it in turn cited Sputnik. I am not certain was policy says about coliting a source likw that when it doesn't. i will look at the others you mention. Elinruby (talk) 21:18, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

You will add self mentioned account

Lira mentions his torture by other inmates while imprisoned 2601:603:1780:83B0:389B:7D13:F8DF:2D7F (talk) 15:45, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

His allegations are already in the article.--Ermenrich (talk) 16:23, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

not sure prison justice constitutes "torture". Elinruby (talk) 21:04, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 February 2024

Why there is no mention of abuses, Lira got in ukrainian prison? Or his hand written and signed letter, where he clearly states he has a collapsed lung and is denied medical treatment on purpose, why so much propaganda in this article and all the relevant info is excluded? personal attack removed 188.69.111.98 (talk) 13:12, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 13:17, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

This is already mentioned in the article in the "Arrest and prosecution" section. BeŻet (talk) 13:23, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

No article on Spanish Wikipedia?

Wasn't the main argument for keeping this page all of the high quality Chilean sources on this guy? That being the case, why doesn't he have an article at Spanish Wikipedia?--Ermenrich (talk) 19:04, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

A very large percentage of this article seems to be with the intent of savaging the reputation of the Gonzalo Lira

Why are there so many reputation savaging claims within such a short biography?125.254.38.254 (talk) 13:59, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

You're going to have to be specific. Can you point to a claim that is "reputation savaging" that is not cited to a WP:RELIABLE SOURCE?--Ermenrich (talk) 15:10, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 February 2024

"Article 463-2 of Ukraine's criminal code" should be changed to "Article 436-2 of Ukraine's criminal code", in accordance with the sources. Hölder-continuity (talk) 18:34, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

 Done ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 19:24, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Why does this article read like it was written by a Russian troll?

This article is filled with false equivalences and weasely language, which is apparently designed to make his look like he was a good person.

For example, why does there need to be a whole paragraph about the Russian government whining about how people care more about Navalny than Lira? 71.114.123.162 (talk) 17:44, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

I don't agree with the above IP editor's overall assessment of the article, but I do agree with the removal by User:Ermenrich of the sentence about the comparison by the Russian Foreign Ministry with Navalny. That was undue for the article. Jfire (talk) 16:15, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Also don't agree with the IP generally, just that particular sentence.--Ermenrich (talk) 18:12, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Wouldn't the mention of Lira be notable because it was the Russian government doing so (instead of just some commentator), and they mentioned him in the initial response to Navalny's death? I would have called it an example of whataboutism but didn't find any source explicitly describing it as that. JSwift49 23:24, 22 February 2024 (UTC)