Talk:Gqeberha

Sound file request

Can we please complement the pronunciation guide for the name Gqeberha with an audio file? I would not be surprised if there is a more precise variety used by Xhosa speakers and an approximation used locally by English and Africaans speakers, and we need to hear both, because there are phonemes here that most of us who are unfamiliar with African languages cannot deduce from the IPA. Doric Loon (talk) 09:27, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

I've officially decided it's now "guhh KEY burr haw". If I'm wrong, don't remove it; correct the article. Red Slash 04:27, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

This has got to be a joke. We already have a Xhosa transcription, and it's not difficult to hear it on the web. {{Respell}} can, as the template documentation says, only be used for English along with {{IPAc-en}} and adhering to the key it links to. Since the word includes a click consonant, it cannot be faithfully borrowed using the sounds of English. As I said here before, I assume it would be /ɡəˈbeɪhə/ or /ɡəˈbɛərhə/, but we just have to wait for an anglicization to emerge, and to do otherwise would be OR. Nardog (talk) 07:11, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks @Nardog, that's helpful. (Maybe I missed discussion further up.) There is no way the international community is going to adopt the click, and that's fine, because names of significant places are regularly adapted into different languages. So an Anglicized pronunciation should be in the article together with the click pronunciation. I would be very surprised if an Anglicized pronunciation has not yet emerged, but finding a reliable source may be a problem at this stage. As for the sound files, yes I did find resources on the web, but that's no excuse for not trying to be user-friendly here. Is there really nobody from Gqeberha who is working here and can make an authentic sound file? Doric Loon (talk) 12:16, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

As for the sound files, yes I did find resources on the web, but that's no excuse for not trying to be user-friendly here. That's not what I meant. I was only reacting to Red Slash's introduction of the bogus respelling into the article. An audio demonstration of the Xhosa pronunciation under a compatible license would indeed be nice. Nardog (talk) 13:19, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Ah, I understand. Well, it may take a little time to get the sources, but I think we should manage to get that. I wonder if a request to the town council might bring something? Doric Loon (talk) 19:53, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

My anecdotal observation is that most English-speaking South Africans, even those who cannot pronounce the click consonant, can pronounce /xə/ - what I have heard most commonly (though I am in Cape Town rather than Gqeberha) is something like /kɛˈbɛərxə/ or /ɡɛˈbɛərxə/. htonl (talk) 17:53, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

/kɛˈbɛərxə/ is probably as close as you can get. In South African English this translates to /keˈbeːχə/, which is closer to the original than /kɛˈbɛːxə ~ kɛˈbɛːkə/ I'd expect from an RP speaker. From a General American speaker, the best you can expect is probably /kɛˈbeɪkə/ or something like that (more realistically: /kɛˈbɛrkə/, based on spelling). Or /kɛˈbeɪhɑː/, with a better approximation for /x/ and a strong (unreduced) final syllable.

(Or all of the above but with an initial /ɡ/). Sol505000 (talk) 16:08, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

• I continue to insist that somewhere, someone who speaks English can describe the sound of the name in English. Guys, if you have a guess, use it. Red Slash 16:52, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

  Of course they can. And WP:NOR prohibits them from adding such a description in the article. Nardog (talk) 06:18, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

• it’s <hard palate roof click>WEH-BEH-<guttural GHA>. But most SA English speaking people would just call it “PE” [1] Park3r (talk) 20:51, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

• I'm a South African English first-language speaker. I think can pronounce it quite well, presumably because I was fascinated by click consonants from a young age. However, it's a sad testament to the low participation of South African editors on Wikipedia that a recording of a native pronunciation hasn't been added yet. I also would guess that most local English speakers who can't pronounce the name perfectly (and English-speaking people from Durban even tend to struggle with guttural sounds, not just clicks) wouldn't dare try to anglicise the name for fear of being ridiculed, and would colloquially call the place "PE" or "Nelson Mandela Bay" when trying to be politically sensitive. UPDATE: this is an example of the way a South African English speaker would react when trying to say the name: [2] He tries to start with a swallowed “g”, then quickly seems to realise he can’t say it, and just says ”Port “Elizabeth”Park3r (talk) 22:46, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

Comment: It seems clear the choice of name was foolhardy at best given the unpronounceability unless one is already familiar with the phonetics of the Xhosa language and that most uses in print are out of a desire to avoid offending the South African government rather than genuine acceptance of their choice of name. The top-down nature of settlement renaming in South Africa is troubling at best. In other parts of the world renaming is usually community-driven rather than imposed by central government (such as the changing of Bombay to Mumbai at the request of Marathi nationalists), but in South Africa local elected officials often object to the names they are forced to adopt.

The best solution for contentious name changes in South Africa is probably to stick with the traditional name in the article title and main body of text and merely noting that the settlement is "officially known as..." in the lede. 89.240.204.149 (talk) 00:48, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

You are correct that the local council was bypassed and its objections ignored. Furthermore the consultation was held in the midst of Covid lockdowns. There's also a source that shows that the name isn't used locally. Unfortunately, there was a WP:MORATORIUM on the move that was lifted, and none of the previous move objectors were notified. I asked for a move review, but was not successful in that. This is an even more extreme case of Ivory Coast/Côte d'Ivoire, which has at least got an English approximation, while any attempt to Anglicise Gqeberha will be met with ridicule or worse. There's also a limited number of editors who know/understand South Africa, so there isn't going to be much prospect of getting the move reverted. The current name doesn't meet WP:CRITERIA, but anyway, bigger fish to fry (for now) than a mistitled and unpronounceable article name... Park3r (talk) 05:50, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

I understand all that, just wanted to throw my penny's worth into the ring. 89.240.204.149 (talk) 02:23, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

"origanlly" vs "or"

What evidence is there that city continues to be known by PE? nableezy - 04:09, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Changed back as no evidence offered for the idea that it is still commonly known as PE. nableezy - 15:56, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

"formerly" is likely better. Nardog (talk) 15:59, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Water supply

The article has two sections about water:

• Hydrology (a subheading of "Geography")
• Water sources (the only subheading of "Municipal")

I think it would be better if the municipal section were deleted, and its only content the water sources section were put in the hydrology section, which already has some content on the same subject.-- Toddy1 (talk) 15:52, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Update the Executive Mayor's name

The new Mayor is Gary van Niekerk (NA) 196.45.26.164 (talk) 09:08, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Done Greenman (talk) 10:01, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Mayoral vacancy

@Dylan Fourie: Your comments are aggressive and unwelcome. Telling people to "stick to editing stuff you know" because you can't find a proper source will just get you blocked. Experienced editors have tried to help you by pointing you to the guidelines on how to contribute constructively - I suggest you read them, including WP:AGF before making any more edits. You actually seemed to try to follow Toddy1's advice while telling them to stick what they know, but the improved source you added says, in the very first sentence "possibly leaving the city without a mayor", which is hardly definitive. I'll revert your changes until there's clarity. Greenman (talk) 14:05, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

IPA/English of Gqeberha

Someone please add International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA) of 'Gqeberha', so that we can know how to pronounce it in English. Ragnarvrollo (talk) 06:02, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Not unless there is an WP:RS showing how English speakers pronounce it, obviously. See also #Sound file request above. Nardog (talk) 17:28, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Collins English Dictionary gives its British English IPA as kɛˈbɛəxə.— MarkH₂₁^talk 18:40, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

@Nardog According to the reference of Collins English Dictionary that you provided, it’s 'kɛˈbɛəxə'. Not 'kɛˈbɛərxə' as you written. There’s no 'r' in the IPA of the reference. Ragnarvrollo (talk) 13:30, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Again see WP:DIAPHONEMIC. You can't link to Help:IPA/English and have /ɛə/ not followed by /r/. That's why {{IPAc-en|ɛə}} produces /ɛər/. Nardog (talk) 13:36, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Pronunciation Respelling Key

As the pronunciation of 'Gqeberha' is a bit peculiar for English speakers, I believe adding a Pronunciation Respelling Key would be more helpful. Ragnarvrollo (talk) 05:40, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Done. Nardog (talk) 08:16, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Is this (keb-AIR-khə) how Gqeberha pronounced in English? Ragnarvrollo (talk) 15:11, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

It is a reiteration of what Collins gives, as is /kɛˈbɛərxə/. We don't know whether Collins is purely descriptively documenting how English speakers actually pronounce it, or simply giving an approximation to the Xhosa pronunciation using English sounds. Nardog (talk) 23:07, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Is Gqeberha actually used?

The article states The city's name change was officially gazetted on 23 February 2021, although the new name remains poorly used locally as of 2023.. Then why the name is changed to Gqeberha? Wikipedia policy is to use known names, not per se official names (eg. Turkey vs Türkiye). Uitenhage is a comparable example and is still named Uitenhage. I suggest a name chage to the dominant name: Port Elizabeth. Especially since the majority of the cities population is Afrikaans and English speaking. Wester (talk) 22:28, 7 February 2024 (UTC)