Talk:India

Vandalsing SVG of Emblem of India.

Someone is Vandalizing Emblem_of_India.svg. Need Immediate Administrator Interference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Swapnil1101 (talk • contribs) 11:16, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 April 2022

Change national language from Hindi, English TO by specifying all 22 Indian National Language which is given in the Indian Constitution. Also if you see any Indian currency note, value of it would have been printed in 17 languages out of 22 Languages given in constitution. 1.186.71.46 (talk) 05:23, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: See the FAQ at the top of this page. CMD (talk) 05:30, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Economy

I had made a recent edit however Fowler&Fowler seems to think he runs the website! I understand he is more senior than me but that doesn't give him the right to call my edits nonsense. The edit I had made was factual and not "nonsense" as he so rudely described. Please do a fact check if you don't believe me. May I suggest we keep the edit I made with the addition that India however does have an overall low GDP per Capita? Thank you :) AtishT20 (talk) 20:58, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Nontrivial edits should be discussed here per WP:OWN#Featured_articles and a consensus be garnered for them. A consensus can take anywhere between several days and several weeks to form. You were not just editing the article directly, but the lead, which is a distilled summary of the distilled article. You were, moreover, editing the summary of a section which another editor had volunteered to improve a week or two ago in the talk page disucssions. You were not summarizing India's complex economy, only engaging in boosterism. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:43, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

I agree with F&f that the formulation being added amounted to POV boosterism. Some of the individual points (such as nominal or PPP GDP) are perhaps worth adding but they are best incorporated to blend in with the existing language (During the same time, its nominal per capita income increased from US$64 annually to US$1,498, and its literacy rate from 16.6% to 74%. From being a comparatively destitute country in 1951, India has become a fast-growing major economy and a hub for information technology services, with an expanding middle class.) so that they can be appreciated in the proper context. Feel free to propose the changes here.

Not currently convinced that the military size, budget or the nuclear-weapon power status is lede worthy. Btw, the discussion of the defence budget in the article body (The official Indian defence budget for 2011 was US$36.03 billion, or 1.83% of GDP. Defence expenditure was pegged at US$70.12 billion for fiscal year 2022–23 and, increased 9.8% than [sic] previous fiscal year.) has a jarring temporal jump and needs to be updated. The first sentence can perhaps be deleted altogether and the second sentence copy-edited though I haven't done so myself since there may be existing plans for section improvement as part of the FAR-process. Abecedare (talk) 22:59, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Please help improve the article @Abecedare: in whatever manner, place, and time you can. Your presence and input is highly valued. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 01:36, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Can't promise anything due to real-life time-commitments but will try to at least help around the edges. Cheers. Abecedare (talk) 05:26, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

I think there needs to be more on India's current strengths and weaknesses (as in F&F's first edit summary) in the lead. There is perhaps too much history there at present. I know it's really tricky to get everything in. Johnbod (talk) 02:12, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

I see your point about history dominating the lede, and perhaps we can think about how the fourth para can be expanded a bit to better summarize the rest of the article (not necessarily in terms of India's strengths and weaknesses although that's one possibility). On the flip side, unlike history, the rest of the article is hard to summarize in narrative form and attempts to give it more weight in the lede might just lead to listing random facts in a sea of blue-links. So, yes, tricky but worth giving some thought. Abecedare (talk) 05:26, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Fine but I don't appreciate my edits being called "nonsense" AtishT20 (talk) 15:23, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

I apologize for using "nonsense." Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:57, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Paragraph 4

I propose that we talk about India's economy in terms of GDP and purchasing parity power etc. Other countries with large economies such as the USA, Japan, China, Germany, and the UK follow this pattern however India does not seem to. It would make sense for India's page to do the same. I propose that we include the edit I made. Yes India is a poor country however we should show a balance and it is important as India continues to grow. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AtishT20 (talk • contribs) 18:27, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

So what do we think? AtishT20 (talk) 21:07, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

It is not a matter about which we can vote among ourselves. It has to do with the reliable sources, what they say, what the major international economic and social organizations say, and what indicators they employ to rate a country's socio-economic well being. We can certainly compare India to others and follow the World Bank:

"India today is a low middle-income country among 57 such countries (L-MIs). In India's last census, 22% of its citizens were found to live below the poverty line of $1.90 per day at 2011 prices in contrast to the L-MI average of 10.9% in 2018, and 0% for Germany, a high-income country. India's life expectancy at birth is 70 years in contrast to the L-MI average of 69, and the German average of 81. Its population is 1.38 billion in contrast to the total L-MI population of 3.33 billion, and Germany's population of 83 million. India's 2020 per capita income was $1,927.7 in contrast to the L-MI average of $2,217.2, and the German of $46,252.7. India's GDP is $2.66 trillion in contrast to the total L-MI of $7.38 trillion and the German of $3.85 trillion.[1][2][3]]

. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:05, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

And if you wanted to add environmental and institutional indicators, you could say: India annually uses 45% of its (renewable) freshwater resources, in contrast to the L-MI average of 18 and Germany's of 23%. Some 46% of Indians use safe sanitation services, in contrast to the L-MI average of 46% and the German of 97%. In 2020, 43% of Indians used the internet, in contrast to the L-MI average of 45% and the German of 87%. Women in India hold 14% of the seats in the national parliaments, in contrast to 21% for the L-MI and 35% for Germany. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:04, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

And regionally, India has more relative poverty than any South Asian country and except for Pakistan and Nepal, India has lower income than other South Asian countries. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:30, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

That's not my point. I said we can mention poverty as well. Even countries like Bangladesh talk about their position in the world based on economy even though they are poor? Is there a problem for you stating India has the 5th largest economy? AtishT20 (talk) 17:11, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 May 2022

Official language no official language 27.59.89.111 (talk) 15:34, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:41, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Update

The section "Modern India" says that the country "has remained a democracy with ... a largely independent press", but the figures say something else. [4] [5] Peter Ormond 💬 18:44, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Concerning - we probably need to change our choice of words. Though the descent might be a temporary blip in the grander scheme of things. TrangaBellam (talk) 18:59, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

About wrong information on official languge

Hindi is not the the official languge of India.India has no official language currently,Hindi can be considered as a state language for some of the states of India(Note:Not all states have Hindi as their state language) Mr.Tovarisch (talk) 06:26, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

Hindi, as an official language, appears to be well cited in the article. --RegentsPark (comment) 15:16, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

Map

As i live india i can still see the disputed shaded green . Please make it dark green for Indian viewers/ users Sachin Kashyap122 (talk) 13:39, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Is this a rendering issue or a political one? Coloring the disputed areas dark green would not show them as disputed (which, unfortunately, they are). --RegentsPark (comment) 14:15, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Sentence about British rule in the lead

"The rights promised to Indians were granted slowly,[51][52] but technological changes were introduced, and ideas of education, modernity and the public life took root."

This sentence misleadingly implies that ideas of education and public life were not already widely circulating in pre-colonial India. The use of the "but" and missing subject in "right promised to Indians were granted slowly" also seem like a questionable way of almost softening the exploitative reality of colonial rule on the country. I suggest changing the sentence to: "British Crown rule began in 1858, introducing ideas of modernity to the nation. The British administration granted the rights it promised to Indians slowly, leading to a pioneering and influential nationalist movement and the eventual dissolution of British rule" OR "British Crown rule began in 1858, introducing ideas of modernity to the nation. A pioneering and influential nationalist movement emerged in response to the British administration's failure to grant equal rights to Indians, becoming a major factor in the eventual dissolution of British rule." I understand we're aiming to be "balanced" but I think it would be remiss to suggest the introduction of modernity and Industrial Revolution-sourced technology somehow negates the brutal loss of life owing to colonial negligence during this period (I am not saying that was ever the intention of whoever wrote that, but that is how it reads to me at least, especially due to the "but"). --103.211.18.141 (talk) 17:05, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

The source for the the second half of the sentence:

• Embree, Ainslie Thomas; Hay, Stephen N.; Bary, William Theodore De (1988), "Nationalism Takes Root: The Moderates", Sources of Indian Tradition: Modern India and Pakistan, Columbia University Press, p. 85, ISBN 978-0-231-06414-9

has been shut down on Google Books. Can somebody provide a quotation that supports this content? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:39, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

I've just seen this. That book is available on my Google books, but there are probably more up-to-date citations. Give me a few minutes, and I'll try to find them in tertiary sources, by which I don't mean encyclopedias, but widely-used textbooks, reviews, introductions to edited collections, companions, or handbooks. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:19, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

Here is one:

Kumar, Krishna (2022), "Introduction to the second edition", The Routledge Handbook of Education in India: Debates, Practices, and Policies, London and New York: Routledge, ISBN 978-0-367-46677-0

Routledge Handbook of Education in India, Introduction

The role of education in shaping childhood is a story of historic importance in modern India. Although historical scholarship on pre-British education for children remains sparse and some of the debates surrounding this research are far from being settled, there is consensus on the view that the nineteenth century forms a watershed in the history of Indian education (Kumar 2014; Shahidullah 1984). The varied schools and systems that existed across India prior to British colonial rule did not survive the new institutional order that took shape in the middle decades of the nineteenth century. What replaced it is usually referred to as the ‘modern’ system of education. How modern it was, in a normative sense, cannot be easily judged, but it did encourage both economic and geographical mobility, and triggered the articulation of demand for social justice by the lower-placed groups in the complex caste system. This impact of education needs to be studied with careful consideration of socialisation processes operative at the level of the family and kinship. And socialisation is inevitably an inter-generational story. The economic and cultural functions of education are normally associated with the advent of modernity in India’s mainly agrarian society, and they have continued to shape the experience of childhood and schooling ever since they set in. The social and cultural turmoil that characterises India’s everyday political life can be seen as an outcome of the expansion of access to education over a period spanning the last seven generations.

Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:30, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

A generation is about 25 years, so we are talking 175 years, the 1840s. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:34, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

Here's another:

Sax, William S.; Basu, Helene (2015), "Introduction", in Sax, William S.; Basu, Helene (eds.), The Law of Possession: Ritual Healing and the Secular State, Oxford and New York: Oxford Universit Press, p. 7, ISBN 978-0-19-027574-7

The Law of Possessions: Ritual Healing and the Secular State, Introduction to the Collection

Thus, at the time of independence, the leaders of these formerly colonized South Asian nations were all committed to secularism (although several of them later reneged on this commitment—see Madan [2006] for the problems of secularism in contemporary India), and they accepted the colonial legacy of an independent, secular judiciary as a hallmark of the modern state. According to the Indian anthropologist M. N. Srinivas, the different forms of self-representation selected by newly independent states and their leaders reflected the deeply ambivalent attitude of indigenous elites about “becoming modern.” He argued that colonial modernity was partly implanted by institutionalizing law courts and codifications of colonial law—which also provided the foundation of the modern postcolonial state. It was above all through the law, Srinivas wrote, that fundamental Western values epitomized by humanitarianism, egalitarianism, and secularism were made normative in India beginning in the first half of the nineteenth century. Although British colonial law was only nominally egalitarian (see Kolsky 2010), it still overruled both precolonial Hindu and Islamic legal practices. One of the consequences of this imposition of Western norms was “the rise of an elite class whose attitude to the West is ambivalent ... who want to be modern, but not western” (Srinivas 1966: 53). The desire to be modern, however, "also enables the non-Western intellectual to reject, in the name of science and humanity, not only the aggressive West but also his own society and its tradition. It enables him to identify himself with the future, with progress, science and humanitarianism. (ibid.)"

Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:44, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

In other words, the second citation and quote is about modernity in the elite, a counterpoint to the more traditional rural popular of the first quote. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:47, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

And here is the original citation:

Embree, Anslie Thomas; Hay, Stephen N.; De Bary, William Theodore (1988), "Nationalism Takes Root: The Moderates (Introduction)", in Embree, Anslie Thomas; Hay, Stephen N.; De Bary, William Theodore (eds.), Sources of Indian Tradition: Modern India and Pakistan (2 ed.), New York: Columbia University Press, pp. 84–84

Sources of the Indian Tradition, Introduction to Chapter 3

the British conquest, the concept of membership in a stable political order embracing and involving them all seems to have been unknown to the inhabitants of India. Dynasties rather than nations were the centers of political power and the foci of personal loyalties. Powerful rulers like Ashoka, Samudragupta, and Harsha had indeed succeeded in bringing large parts of the subcontinent under their sway, but their empires dissolved with the death of the last strong ruler in each reigning line. Thanks largely to the genius of Akbar (1542-1605), the Mughal empire created a somewhat more durable administrative order, but internal dissensions and Persian-Afghan invasions led to the empire's dismemberment after the passing of the militane Aurangzeb (1619—1707). For a time the Marathas gave promise of re-establishing Hindu dominion, but again their rule could not unite all of India around their standard, let alone bridge the gap between India’s two major religious traditions. A new chapter opened when British arms and diplomacy placed the whole of the subcontinent under one paramount power for the first time in history. They imposed not only unity on India, but a relatively efficient administrative machinery as well. Gradually the sinews of a new polity were strengthened by the introduction of printing and journalism, railroads, a postal and telegraph system, and by the growth of an all-India economy centering in large modern cities accessible to ocean-going ships. The new political and economic order attracted able Indians anxious to improve their status and increase their wealth by entering its service. A new class emerged to mediate between the foreign rulers or traders and the mass of people. Using their knowledge of English as the key to advancement, Indian clerks and functionaries found employment in government posts; Indian lawyers pleaded in British-style courts; Indian businessmen dealt with foreign firms; and Indian teachers imparted to their countrymen the language and culture of the conquerors. This rising middle class demonstrated a loyalty to the British chat outweighed the angry discontent of the old elite—both Muslim and Hindu. The suppression of the latter in the Mutiny and Rebellion of 1857-1858 only confirmed the entrenched position of their successors. But the English education that provided so many willing collaborators for the British in India eventually proved the undoing of their empire. For one thing, the members of the new middle class—whether from the South or the North, from Bengal or from Maharashtra—could all communicate with each other through the medium of a common language. Equally important, their reading of the English classics instilled in them Western ideals of justice, freedom, and love of country. As their numbers grew they found the good government jobs too few, with the best ones reserved for Europeans. To economic frustration was added the bitter sting of racial discrimination, for “the Mutiny” of 1857 had sharpened British suspicions of Indian loyalty, and the late nineteenth-century doctrines of Social Darwinism and aggressive imperialism combined to increase the white man’s feeling of inherent superiority over his darker-skinned subjects. Ignoring the sympathetic statements made in Parliament and the conciliatory proclamation of Queen Victoria in 1858, Britishers in India saw little reason to grant Indians a greater measure of control over their own affairs. Under these circumstances, it was not long before the seed-idea of nationalism implanted by their reading of Western books began to take root in the minds of intelligent and energetic Indians. Allan Octavian Hume, a Scotsman sympathetic to their aspirations, made possibile the first meeting (in 1885) of the Indian National Congress, which was intended to serve as a forum for the discussion of political reforms and patriotic projects. From this beginning as a safety-valve through which the upper classes could air their grievances, the Congress quickly transformed itself into an all-India nationalist organization.

Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:20, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

The above quotations/sources cannot be used for supporting the sentence that is clearly WP:OR.

This sentence should be removed because the current scholarly consensus holds that British rule in India was a net negative. Even 70 years ago, this view was disputed and couldn't make it to the intro, per WP:NPOV.

This problem had been highlighted multiple times earlier. See Talk:India/Archive_51#British_Raj_in_lead and Talk:India/Archive_51#Additional_lead_issues. --1990'sguy (talk) 16:19, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for all these sources @Fowler&fowler. I don't think the current sentence in the lead captures the essence of all this information accurately at all, which is what I understand @1990'sguy is also picking up. "there is consensus on the view that the nineteenth century forms a watershed in the history of Indian education" does not equate to "ideas of education … took root": only that pre-colonial formulations of education underwent a significant transformation and came to resemble European models. I think the presence of madrasas, ashrams, the guru-shishya tradition, Nalanda, etc. alone corroborate the fact that "ideas of education" had already put down roots in the subcontinent well before the British entered the picture: whether they survived is a different matter altogether. I think it is absolutely accurate to say that modernity "took root" in India during British Raj (and hence bringing modern education, modern public life), but to say "ideas of education" took root during this period is just false, and I don't think any of the sources you provide say anything different. Indeed, what these sources seem to carefully emphasise is a transformation from pre-modern to modern: "The varied schools and systems that existed across India prior to British colonial rule did not survive the new institutional order that took shape in the middle decades of the nineteenth century. What replaced it is usually referred to as the ‘modern’ system of education"/"He argued that colonial modernity was partly implanted by institutionalizing law courts and codifications of colonial law—which also provided the foundation of the modern postcolonial state"/the third source talks about dynasties as the imminent pre-colonial mode of political organisation that the British replaced with an "imposed" understanding of "unity." The use of "took root" in the lead is therefore inaccurate. As for "public life," if by that phrase we mean electoral politics and the entire modern concept of belonging to one nation then sure; in that case, the sentence in the lead should state something more specific. I think the broader issue is that the coverage of British rule in India is very very vague in the lead: what do "ideas of education and public life" really even mean? I think it makes more sense to leave it to just modernity, as I suggested in my initial post. Perhaps another potential, easier revision is to change "took roots" to "significantly transformed." At present, the lead really does effectively read like a very euphemistic summary of British presence in India. Above all, what it states is just historically incorrect. Here is my final suggested revision:

"Gradually expanding rule of the British East India Company followed, turning India into a colonial economy. Following the Indian Rebellion of 1857, British Crown rule began in 1858, which consolidated India's transformation into a modern state. A pioneering and influential nationalist movement emerged in response to the British administration's prolonged failure to grant equal rights to Indians, becoming a major factor in the eventual dissolution of British rule. In 1947 the British Indian Empire was partitioned into two independent dominions, a Hindu-majority Dominion of India and a Muslim-majority Dominion of Pakistan, amid large-scale loss of life and an unprecedented migration."

I think this is a much more accurate, leaner, and unbiased summary of British presence ("prolonged failure" included). 103.211.18.105 (talk) 13:42, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Hi. Could we please reach consensus on this? First, I want to clarify I am the same user who made this post in the first place (I have retired from Wikipedia and didn't care initially to log back in). I went ahead and changed the sentence highlighted here to: "Gradually expanding rule of the British East India Company followed, turning India into a colonial economy. Following the Indian Rebellion of 1857, British Crown rule began in 1858, which consolidated India's transformation into a modern state and significantly transformed ideas of education and public life. A pioneering and influential nationalist movement emerged in response to the British administration's prolonged failure to grant equal rights to Indians, becoming a major factor in the eventual dissolution of British rule." I know that was a bold thing to do but I am just not interested in rehashing debates of whether British colonialism was really "that bad," which is what I find these discussions usually devolve into. The previous formulation, especially "The rights promised to Indians were granted slowly, but technological changes were introduced, and ideas of education, modernity and the public life took root," was honestly one of the most ridiculous summaries of colonial rule I have ever read on any wikipedia page (it essentially reads: "Indians had very few rights in their own land, but hey the British made railroads and started teaching English to a very select few"). Also none of the sources @Fowler&fowler provided here even substantiate that claim. There is also the added issue of what information is being selected to highlight here. The negative here is that "rights were granted slowly," when it could very well have been "Famines were significantly frequent during British rule" and "Indians were frequently subjected to poor working conditions and brutality." I understand completely that it is indeed very difficult to accurately capture British rule in one or two sentences, and that the experiences of Indians during the Raj differed between different classes and social groups, but I think undeniably there is a conscious effort to make British rule sound as benign as possible in the current lead. "Took root" could be changed to "significantly transformed" and that alone would be a constructive first step. –This issue, like @1990'sguy, has been brought up before with very reasonable, non-emotive perspectives so the previous formulation clearly was problematic to others as well. My ultimate concern is that Wikipedia is powerful—often young impressionable minds' first and last introduction to certain topics—and that any user unaware of India's history would read this part of the lead and think British rule was just a chill, casually and only vaguely undesirable period, if even that. --WonderBoy1998 (talk) 10:42, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Note that the first restoration made by Fowler came with a misleading edit summary,[6], false accusation that I am engaging in vandalism,[7] then misrepresentation[8] of WP:OWN#Featured_articles (which nowhere say poorly written sentences that lack consensus cannot be removed). The recent one is yet another false claim that he has consensus.[9] Azuredivay (talk) 10:57, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

You guys can Wikilawyer all you want, but I have read the books. I can argue with you about content until kingdom come. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:09, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Please tell me what major widely used textbooks, per WP:TERTIARY state that famines were the hallmark of British rule in India or that there were no famines in India before the British. Have you read Tirthankar Roy's Economic History of India, 1857-2010? Have you read Amartya Sen? His arguments are much more complex than famines were much more frequent .... Famines are complex things. I've written most of the Indian famine articles. The only one that I have not written, only contributed to in a supportive way is Linzhi's excellent Bengal famine of 1943.

That famine had complex causes. Sen, for example, has taken popularizers and scapegoaters such as Madhusree Mukherjee to task, for example, in the New York Review of Books for reducing the famine to a caricature.

There were many causes for the 43 famine. There was a weather-related cause of s crop failure of the previous year. The Japanese had attacked and run over Burma in 1942, and the usual redress of importing Burmese rice was not available. The provincial government of Suhrawardy, in place as a result of the provincial elections of 1937 (following the Government of India Act, 1935), had not acted in time. The grain merchants of Calcutta had hoarded vast quantities of rice to sell when the prices rose which they eventually did. Men, a large number of them Hindu, had abandoned their families in the villages in order to find food in the cities. A large proportion of the dead were women and children. (Paul Greenough has written poignantly about Hinduism's resort to furthering the patriline in times of crises. Please read his magnum opus on the Bengal famine, or at least read Arjun Appadurai's review of his book available at his website.) A larger proportion of the dead was in East Bengal, most landless peasants whose Hindu landowners were safely ensconced in West Bengal where the famine was not as severe. (Please read Christopher Bayly and Tim Harper's accounts in their World War II books. Please view the pictures I have added to the 43 famine page from my own collection. Even Greenough had not seen them before.) Then there were the more British related factors. Linlithgow, the Viceroy, did not take it seriously at first. And then there was Churchill who felt that Britis resources were better spent on its troops who were fighting a global war. All factors and all actors played a role in creating the famine. The British may not have taken the famine seriously at first, but eventually when Wavell arrived as the new Viceroy, he moved heaven and earth to end the famine, and end it soon did.

So before waste my time here with caricatures and simplifications, please read something, and object with precision. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:08, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

So, here's my proposal. Let's discuss one issue at a time and proceed from one to the other. Don't make hurried, off the top of your head changes in the article. Just think what you wrote was nonsense in terms of narrative coherence let alone historical accuracy. You wrote: "A pioneering and influential nationalist movement emerged in response to the British administration's prolonged failure to grant equal rights to Indians. The Raj began in 1858. The pioneering movement (i.e. the Congress) began in 1885. We are talking 29 years. Are those are grounds for using "prolonged failure?" Please be aware that very likely every clause has been discussed by many people, many who have read Indian history for a long time. So arriving here with nothing precise to say will not be helpful. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:22, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

@Fowler&fowler I brought up famines only to make the point that other "negatives" could be highlighted. My point here is there is a strategic selectiveness in terms of what information gets included here. As for reading something before I waste your time, even the three sources you quoted here earlier regarding education and public life do not translate to a sentence like "ideas of education and public life took root." I read one of the previous discussions regarding that sentence and I diverge from one user's interpretation that "the 'ideas' took root during that time, rather than were caused intentionally by the British Raj." "Took root" implies something started growing, whereas from the sources you bring up yourself it seems more accurate to characterise it as a transformation from pre-modern to modern, which would be very succinctly reflected by changing that phrase to "significantly transformed." I also do not see why "but" is constantly being used in the current sentences to connect two events that are not exactly related; even grammatically that seems questionable ("His car broke down, but he was able to borrow his friend's bike" vs "His car broke down, but he bakes good cookies"). I just don't see why "Gradually expanding rule of the British East India Company followed, turning India into a colonial economy. Following the Indian Rebellion of 1857, British Crown rule began in 1858, which consolidated India's transformation into a modern state and significantly transformed ideas of education and public life. A pioneering and influential nationalist movement emerged in response to the British administration's failure to grant equal rights to Indians, becoming a major factor in the eventual dissolution of British rule" is an unacceptable edit to you when it pretty much retains all of the old content, just without the odd usage of "but." Removed "prolonged" by the way. --WonderBoy1998 (talk) 11:37, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

That is not how we proceed on this page. We object to something with precision, propose something in its place and offer the reasons for it. We proceed it bits and pieces, all digestible. Otherwise, anyone can wave their hands and offer around-the-coffee-table-wisdom. But that won't help this article.

As Indian colonial history is one of the most worked over areas of modern history, we use widely used textbooks published by scholarly publishers (who in turn summarize the secondary sources on the topic and are generally vetted for due weight. Please tell me something specific you consider to be problematic and we can discuss how the tertiary sources discuss it and whether this articles needs to be changed in the light of our renewed understanding of their views. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:50, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

I propose, primarily, that we workshop the sentence "The rights promised to Indians were granted slowly, but technological changes were introduced, and ideas of education, modernity and the public life took root." The "but" here appears misused; it connects two "realities" that are not exactly related or comparable. Second, I suggest we change the phrase "took root," which like I said before implies something previously either just very dormant or entirely absent started growing, to "significantly transformed." The latter seems like a more accurate summary of the information contained in the three sources you previously cited in this thread. Please see my earlier reply where I highlighted in bold the parts from Routledge Handbook of Education in India, The Law of Possessions, and Sources of the Indian Tradition that I feel emphasise transformation as opposed to taking root.

I recommend we break this sentence apart to: "Following the Indian Rebellion of 1857, British Crown rule began in 1858, which consolidated India's transformation into a modern state and significantly transformed ideas of education and public life. The rights promised to Indians were granted slowly, leading to a pioneering and influential nationalist movement that became a major factor in ending British rule." I think it fair to say that slow pace "led" to the nationalist movement, and of course there were other reasons but not all of those can be phrased here and I am not sure how many caveats can be loaded into a sentence in the lead. It can obviously be worked around to flow better. --WonderBoy1998 (talk) 11:58, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Lets just stick to the first sentence. Before we can discuss the "but," please tell me what rights were promised to Indians and by whom? What content are we summarizing there? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:06, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

That is your sentence I am quoting. From your comments in the article it is sourced from Miles Taylors's chapter in Crowns and Colonies: European Monarchies and Overseas Empires. When I read this sentence I assumed it was referring to the Government of India act of 1858 and the accompanying proclamation from Queen Victoria. One of the reasons I had changed this to "A pioneering and influential nationalist movement emerged in response to the British administration's failure to grant equal rights to Indians, becoming a major factor in the eventual dissolution of British rule" was to eliminate the passive voice/missing subject. --WonderBoy1998 (talk) 12:08, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

True, but it was a complex set of rights. Many such as non-interference in religion (no more attempts at social legislation etc) were honored right away, for the most part. Here is a slight elaboration.

"The rights promised to Indians were granted slowly, but technological changes were introduced, and ideas of education, modernity and the public life took root."

A) "the rights promised to Indians." What this summarizes is the following:

On November 1, 1858, Queen Victoria issued a proclamation to Indians, which while lacking the authority of a constitutional provision, promised rights similar to those of other British subjects.

Here is the source material:

a) "Queen Victoria's Proclamation of 1858 laid the foundation for Indian secularism and established the semi-legal framework that would govern the politics of religion in colonial India for the next century. ... It promised civil equality for Indians regardless of their religious affiliation, and state non-interference in Indians' religious affairs. Although the Proclamation lacked the legal authority of a constitution, generations of Indians cited the Queen's proclamation in order to claim, and to defend, their right to religious freedom."

b) The proclamation to the "Princes, Chiefs, and People of India," issued by Queen Victoria on 1 November 1858. "We hold ourselves bound to the natives of our Indian territories by the same obligation of duty which bind us to all our other subjects." [p. 2], "When the governance of India was transferred from the East India Company to the Crown in 1858, she (Queen Victoria) and Prince Albert intervened in an unprecedented fashion to turn the proclamation of the transfer of power into a document of tolerance and clemency. ... They ... insisted on the clause that stated that the people of India would enjoy the same protection as all subjects of Britain. Over time, this royal intervention led to the Proclamation of 1858 becoming known in the Indian subcontinent as 'the Magna Carta of Indian liberties', a phrase which Indian nationalists such as Gandhi later took up as they sought to test equality under imperial law")

B) In the following decades, when admission to these rights was not always forthcoming, Indians were to pointedly refer to the Queen's proclamation in growing declarations of a new nationalism.

Here is the source material:

a) "In purely legal terms, (the proclamation) kept faith with the principles of liberal imperialism and appeared to hold out the promise that British rule would benefit Indians and Britons alike. But as is too often the case with noble statements of faith, reality fell far short of theory, and the failure on the part of the British to live up to the wording of the proclamation would later be used by Indian nationalists as proof of the hollowness of imperial principles." (cited to Peers, India under Colonial rule, 1765 to 1885)

b) "Ignoring ...the conciliatory proclamation of Queen Victoria in 1858, Britishers in India saw little reason to grant Indians a greater control over their own affairs. Under these circumstances, it was not long before the seed-idea of nationalism implanted by their reading of Western books began to take root in the minds of intelligent and energetic Indians." Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:49, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

I'm trying to given you a sense of the complexity we are dealing with. Victoria promised many rights. Some such as non-interference in religious affairs were granted easily. Others such as eventual Dominion Status, took a long time. Representation came slowly in several steps: Minto-Morley reforms, Montague Chelmsford reforms, and eventually the Government of India Act, 1935, on which the Constitution of India is based and from which 85% of its content copied verbatim. In other words, eventually they did offer a version of representative federalism that Indians accepted for the most part. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:56, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Not the part of the sentence I have an issue with (although the passive voice should probably be dealt with as well). I also want to reiterate that I am aware it is extremely difficult to capture in two or three sentences the extraordinary breadth and variety of experiences during British Raj, but to use user TrangaBellam's phrase the "balance-sheet approach" used in the current formulation just does not seem like the way to do it at all. WonderBoy1998 (talk) 13:01, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Well what other way is there? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:17, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

"Gradually expanding rule of the British East India Company followed, turning India into a colonial economy. Following the Indian Rebellion of 1857, British Crown rule began in 1858, which consolidated India's transformation into a modern state and significantly transformed ideas of education and public life. The rights promised to Indians were granted slowly, leading to a pioneering and influential nationalist movement that became a major factor in the eventual dissolution of British rule" or "became a major factor in ending British rule." I think this keeps all the current content just removes the arbitrarily placed "but." We can step away for a while and deal with the passive voice later. WonderBoy1998 (talk) 13:21, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Well, I also doubt why there was a need for a 'freedom movement' when the British empire, known for its racism,[10] anti-LGBT persecution,[11][12] famines/genocides,[13] looting/exploitation,[14] was in fact all good towards India as Fowler claims? Fowler, you should read WP:RGW and forget about praising British Empire on lead. Azuredivay (talk) 12:09, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

The drain theory had a (extraordinarily) long life but has been rightfully consigned to the bins across almost all semi-decent works on the economic history of the subcontinent published within the last couple of decades. I suggest you read Roy's The Economic History of Colonialism (2021; Palgrave) or Monsoon Economies: India's History in a Changing Climate (2022; MIT Press). The anti-LGBT bit is too ridiculous to even invite a discussion. I am not particularly supportive of the current line in the lead (or the balance-sheet approach) but waving at famine-genocide theories, based on pop-histories, or drain-theory is a waste of time. TrangaBellam (talk) 12:37, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Bhatt seems to be an adherent of Ruth Vanita's school — precolonial India was a haven for queer people because, ahem, Khajuraho depicts "homosexual orgies". TrangaBellam (talk) 12:41, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Please let us not be distracted by Azuredivay's throwaway comment. --WonderBoy1998 (talk) 12:44, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

But when we are talking about granting "rights" then it is necessary to show the damage done to the human rights. One can absolutely find a lot better sources but the point is that it is easy to solidify my comment. I do think that the current sentence needs to be removed or at least be replaced with the version here which reflects the scholarly view on the subject. Azuredivay (talk) 12:51, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Adding challenges in the lead section

In the article lead, under socio-economic challenges faced by India, it only lists 3. I propose adding other significant ones like corruption, lack of access to healthcare and education, widespread poverty and inter-community clashes. Johnnytest5 (talk) 04:53, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

This is the problem. People only want to talk about the bad sides of India and not the positive ones. There should be mention of both not just one AtishT20 (talk) 17:23, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

@AtishT20: Stop making emotive responses to queries here.

@Johnnytest5: The mention of corruption index already exist in that section. The "lack of access to healthcare and education" is a non-existing issue that's why it is not covered, and you have forgot the lead say "India has substantially reduced its rate of poverty, though at the cost of increasing economic inequality.[60]" This is why the socio-economic section talks about income inequality. Aman Kumar Goel ^(Talk) 18:08, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

@AtishT20 The article already mentions many positive things about India, and as with every other country wikipedia page, both the good and bad issues should be mentioned to maintain a neutral, informative page.

@Aman.kumar.goel It is not a 'non existing issue' as you say. The issue is very much there, just because you may not know about it does not make it non existent. Access has increased substantially, yes, but it is far from universal. India's facing acute doctor shortages in rural areas, even though progress is being made. I'm citing just one out of many sources for you to read. https://theprint.in/health/1-doctor-for-1511-people-1-nurse-for-670-covid-exposes-indias-healthcare-fault-lines/602784/. The issue is prevalent.

And I am talking about the lead of the article which mentions the challenges, not the section itself. In the lead there is no mention of the corruption perception index or of corruption at all. I know that it is mentioned below, I am saying it should be mentioned in the lead, as it is for most other countries. Johnnytest5 (talk) 04:52, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Your both claims are misleading. "shortage of medical professionals" is not same as "lack of access to healthcare and education" and your claim that corruption is mentioned on lead for "for most other countries" contradicts the reality as Equatorial Guinea is claimed to be the most corrupt country in the world but the article's lead make no such claim. Aman Kumar Goel ^(Talk) 05:02, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

I'm not making any emotive responses..... AtishT20 (talk) 14:18, 29 May 2022 (UTC)