Talk:Justice League

Rewriting

I am going to be rewriting large parts of this article, removing a lot of the lore. Wikipedia shouldn't be about lore. It should be about the real world. So I want to change the article's focus to the real world aspects such as the creative process, corporate politics, copyright disputes, executive mandates, sales, merchandising, etc. If someone wants to study the lore, they should go to Wikia. Wikipedia should be about the real world. You can look at my draft in Draft:Justice League Kurzon (talk) 12:20, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

@Jc37: Why don't you deign to make a few remarks? Kurzon (talk) 18:48, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

@Jc37: Did you just revert my revision out of reflex, or do you have actual criticisms? Because by reverting my revision, you deny other editors a look. Kurzon (talk) 19:31, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for adding your thoughts above.

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. We shouldn't be comparing what we do to Wikia, either positively or negatively.

Yes, having a real-world perspective is important. But so is history and context.

All that aside, my concern was and is the rather large amounts of removals. There's a big difference between re-writing and removing.

So with that in mind, Can you please explain specifics about each large chunk of text you are removing than just merely "it's lore". - jc37 18:24, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

Superhero articles tend to be bloated listings of trivia, such as what happened in this or that crossover. I don't think non-comic book nerds are interested in such trivia. They want broad overviews writing in a concise and accessible style. Wikipedia is where you go when you want to learn about something for the first time. It should not be for nerds, by nerds. Kurzon (talk) 18:34, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

Well, I agree and disagree. Crossover events, are just that, "events", so they tend to get more eyes on them, and (important to us in referencing) they tend to get more coverage. I agree though that explanatory text (especially "in-world") should be as concise as possible, especially on an overview article like this one. Especially since the JL (in its various incarnations) tends to be present at nearly every DC Comics event. Even the Death of Superman had the JL involved.

So that aside, (looking from a perspective of re-writing and paring to be concise), where first do you think we should look? Or in other words what section of the page do you think is the worst in need of cleanup? - jc37 18:43, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

As an example, look at what the lede was before I started working on the article, and compare it to its current state. It was just a load of trivia, no analytical overview. Kurzon (talk) 18:34, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

I definitely see a laundry list of names that seriously needn't be in the lead. - jc37 18:51, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, and that's something with superhero articles in general. Sperging on trivia. I figured that most human beings on not interested in what Superman did in this or that issue of a comic book (especially since comic books are a niche market, most people know Superman through TV and movies). They want a concise broad overview, they just want to "get" what Superman is and what he means to the real world. That's the theory I used when I rewrote the Superman article a few years ago. Do you like the Superman article as it is now? That's what I want to do for Justice League.

And I will confess that I had a lot of arguments over what I was doing for the Superman article. I promise to be more congenial this time around, I'm not opening that can of worms again. Kurzon (talk) 19:02, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

Let's try to avoid WP:RECENTISM. Comics were, at one time, a really big deal. (For reference, read up on Fawcett and Captain Marvel, for example).

And I'm not going to presume what our readers want. I'd like to think we have a rather broad readership base : )

That said, I agree that concise is good, as long as we do not lose history and context.

And "congenial" is always a good thing : ) - jc37 19:11, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I will say that these two removals in particular are problematic: [1] [2]. References for each of these should be easily found. - jc37 19:05, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

I would ask you not to revert my edits just because they lack references, particularly when the old text didn't have many references either. Don't make a superficial assessment of my work. Kurzon (talk) 19:11, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

That's not what I was saying. Indeed, I believe in the wiki-way.

You removed this info. I find that problematic, since this info is relevant, and can be referenced. - jc37 19:14, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

@Jc37: Well, when it comes to this edit I think we should delve too much into Marvel stuff. This is Justice League, DC Comics. Kurzon (talk) 19:48, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

We're not. For both of these edits, these are very much milestones of the Silver Age of Comics, and directly related to the Justice League. This is an example of that "real world perspective" mentioned above. - jc37 19:53, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

Yeah OK maybe you have an argument, maybe it's just a question of degree. Kurzon (talk) 21:47, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

So to move forward, I agree there is more than a bit of excess in this article. As an overview article, that links to other articles, some of these details are better located in the more-specific sub-articles.

So with that in mind, and since you have already shown in your edits what you think could/should be removed. I will go ahead and make a single edit cleaning out some of the excess where I think we agree, and then we can discuss. So that we can see where we are and hopefully find consensus. - jc37 22:05, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

Ok, just merely a couple of changes in that edit. In one spot, removing excess from the start of a paragraph. Some text re-writing about separate earths, and the removal of a chunk of plot synopsis, which probably is not needed in this as an overview article. Do you agree or disagree with each of the types of edits and why? Trying to figure out the places where you and I may or may not have common ground. - jc37 22:29, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

A thing I want to do is segregate lore from information regarding editorial and marketing decisions. The real-world stuff and the fictional stuff should be in separate sections. Kurzon (talk) 11:30, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

In some cases that is appropriate and in some it is not. It depends upon context. - jc37 12:17, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

So I did a single edit, explained what the changes in that edit were specifically and asked for your thought so we could start to find a commonground. Which is one of the things to do in a discussion when trying to achieve consensus. While I'm waiting for your thoughts (since the edit is easily readable in the page history) I'll revert subsequent edits for now. - jc37 12:17, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

This is the current bit on Justice League Detroit:

Seeking to capitalize on the popularity of their other team books, which focused upon heroes in their late teens/early 20s, Gerry Conway and artist Chuck Patton revamped the Justice League series. After most of the original heroes fail to help fend off an invasion of Martians, Aquaman dissolves the League and rewrites its charter to allow only heroes who will devote their full-time to the roster.[57] The new team initially consists of Aquaman, Zatanna, Martian Manhunter, Elongated Man, the Vixen, and a trio of teenage heroes Gypsy, Steel, and Vibe.[58] Aquaman leaves the team after a year, due to resolving marital problems, and his role as leader is assumed by the Martian Manhunter.

The final storyline for the original Justice League of America series (#258–261), by writer J. M. DeMatteis and artist Luke McDonnell,[59] concludes with the murders of Vibe and Steel at the hands of robots created by long-time League nemesis Professor Ivo, and the resignations of Vixen, Gypsy, and the Elongated Man during the events of DC's Legends miniseries, which sees the team disband.

I want to replace it with this:

From the Justice League's inception in 1960 up until 1984, the team's roster always included a number of A-list characters who had their own solo books, such as Green Lantern and Superman. But in Justice League of America Annual #2 (1984), the Justice League was revised to entirely comprise more obscure characters who did not have their own solo books, such as Vixen, Vibe, and Martian Manhunter. The original A-list members would not be brought back into the cast until 1996. This era of the Justice League, which lasted about two years, is popularly known as "Justice League Detroit". The impetus behind this change was to sidestep the convoluted continuities of the classic characters by using lesser-known characters, thus allowing for more character-driven stories; and to give the team a more youthful, hipper feel similar to that of the Teen Titans and the X-Men, which were selling better. The cast was multicultural: Gypsy was Romani, Vibe was Latino, Vixen was Black. However, the writing of Vibe and Gypsy was criticized for using clichés of their ethnic groups, symptomatic of writers who were well-meaning but out of touch with certain minorities, something for which said writers (Gerry Conway and Chuck Patton) later expressed regret.

The existing text is just lore. My text is more analytical, a description of the creative process, editorial decisions, and reader reaction. It's about the real world. Isn't that just better? Kurzon (talk) 13:34, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Interesting information. However, the reference in the existing text notes what you leave out. about teens/ etc. And the "lore" part provides the "how" of the creators' implementation, thus providing context. As I mentioned above, concise context is preferable because it gives a better overview.

Also, you have added some assertions of what the creators stated, In that case, since you are quoting them, that actually does need a reference to be included in the article.

I think the best result would be a combination of your text and the existing text. Re-writing, rather than just blanket removal. - jc37 14:34, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

I have references. Kurzon (talk) 15:01, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Great : ) - jc37 15:02, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Here's an example of showing how to merge the texts, as I mentioned:

Seeking to capitalize on the popularity of their other team books like the New Teen Titans, which focused upon heroes in their late teens/early 20s, and thus to give the team a more youthful feel, Gerry Conway and artist Chuck Patton decided to revamp the Justice League series. Another impetus behind this change was to sidestep the convoluted continuities of the classic characters by using lesser-known characters, thus allowing for more character-driven stories. Up until that point, the team's roster included the company's more popular characters, several of whom had their own long-running solo titles, such as Superman and Wonder Woman. This change was initially implemented in Justice League of America Annual #2. After most of the original heroes are absent during an invasion of Martians, Aquaman dissolves the League and rewrites its charter to allow only heroes who will devote their full-time to the roster.[57] The new team initially comprised of existing characters who did not currently have their own solo titles: Aquaman, Zatanna, Martian Manhunter, Elongated Man, as well as the newer characters, Gypsy, Steel, Vibe, and Vixen, the latter of whom had her inaugural series cancelled during the DC Implosion. This era of the Justice League, which lasted about two years, is popularly known as "Justice League Detroit". The final storyline for the original Justice League of America series (#258–261), by writer J. M. DeMatteis and artist Luke McDonnell,[59] concludes with the murders of Vibe and Steel at the hands of robots created by long-time League nemesis Professor Ivo, and the resignations of Vixen, Gypsy, and the Elongated Man during the events of DC's Legends miniseries, during which, the team disbands.

I didn't add the assertion, but that can of course be added with references. Though I did remove several inaccuracies. Like stating the Cindy Reynolds is Romani... - jc37 15:07, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

I don't think there is any utility in mention lore trivia, such as Aquaman's marital problems (it's just a contrivance to get him off the team, who cares?). And we don't need to list all the members because there is a dedicated article for that. Kurzon (talk) 15:09, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Agreed on the marital issues. And no, we should list the initial members for each incarnation. It shows how each new incarnation was implemented. - jc37 15:16, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Ok, I tightened up the text more - combining lists of characters, for example. Do you have any thoughts/concerns/additions? - jc37 15:27, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

No need for a full list of characters. It doesn't say anything insightful. There is a dedicated article for that stuff: List of Justice League members Kurzon (talk) 15:30, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

That list page does not list the initial incarnation of each team. The JLI listing, for example, doesn't indicate that Black Canary was a member. - jc37 15:36, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

I suppose the broader point is that this is an overview page about a team of individuals. And so we should show what that team comprised of at each incarnation, not merely that "something" that happened to be called "Justice League" existed. A group is a sum of its parts - jc37 15:39, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

If that page does not list the initial incarnation of the team, then you fix that page. Kurzon (talk) 16:00, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

You are missing the point. Whether or not a list exists (per WP:SS), has zero to do with whether overview coverage should exist in the primary overview article. It obviously should. - jc37 16:24, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

We don't need to say how the Justice League Detroit disbanded. What we should write is what kind of stories that Justice League Detroit was. Justice League Detroit was character-driven stories using obscure characters who were more flawed and limited than the likes of Superman and Wonder Woman. Morrison's JLA was epic plot-driven stories that evoked a pantheon of gods. Justice League International was a drive to cement the fusion of the multiverse by mixing in characters like Jay Garrick and Captain Marvel. Justice League Dark is character-driven stories where the heroes are often left scarred by their experiences. That's the sort of stuff that is really worth telling. Kurzon (talk) 16:36, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

This isn't a case of "better than". We do not subjectively determine what is "worth telling" or not "worth telling. We provide an overview of the topic for our readers to allow them to get a full sense of that topic. We do not do that by leaving out context. - jc37 16:40, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Of course we have to determine! We do that all the time when we decide what topics are noteworthy or what information is pertinent. I suspect you're not into actually writing articles. I've looked at your contrib history. Almost all your contribs are on talk pages or admin boards. Kurzon (talk) 17:11, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

lol - You read over 15 years of edits and that was your conclusion, k

So here's the thing. Before I start quoting policy to you, you know, things like comment on the content, not the contributor. I think I'd like you to imagine something.

Imagine an admin notices in their watchlist large sections of text being removed from an article - Something that could be considered disruptive editing.

Now the admin has several options of what they could do, depending on the situation. One of which is of course to merely revert and warn, or even to WP:RBI.

But instead, the admin takes a closer look at the situation. Sees that this is a long term contributor. Sees that they have a not insignificant block log with a history of being blocked for removing chunks of text and not explaining their edits, and ownership issues, among other things.

This is of course where escalating blocks could start.

But seeing as this is a long term contributor, and in some cases, they've shown they can discuss when they want to, the admin makes a different choice. To toss their admin hat aside and instead to try to engage the long-term editor in a discussion about the edits. And give them a chance to show they are better than what they have been doing in the past. Work towards collaboration etc.

And it's sort of working, but they keep pushing a POV contrary to policy, and further many of the edits are factually inaccurate or dowright false. Plus many of the sentences in the edits don't pass the laugh test for paraphrasing. This is far too close to plaigiarism/copyvio. And many of the edits simply show a considerable lack of knowledge of the topic, almost as if all they know is from parroting reference text.

So what to do at this point? Give up on the editor, or try to continue to engage? The admin could be wasting their time.

But maybe - maybe - there's a chance something fruitful could come of this. After all, does it really benefit Wikipedia to see another long term contributor to be eventually globally banned from Wikipedia for what is easily correctable nonsense, as we have seen so many others banned in the last few months, for way for less than this? I think the community is losing their patience for this kind of thing. So anyway, I guess we'll see. - jc37 16:52, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

As for me, I'm going to revert your additions (again) - they are filled with completely false information, among other things. I would be happy to continue to try to discuss with you about the fiction MoS, and editing policy and so on, or whatever. But if you have decided not to, please feel free to let me know and there are of course other process routes to follow. Up to you. - jc37 16:52, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

What did I get wrong? Kurzon (talk) 17:03, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

For now, I'll stick to the Detroit text we were discussing above.

Starting with some simpler ones: Cindy reynolds (Gypsy) isn't Romani. Vixen was slated to have her own title (it was made, though they only published copyright copy). Aquaman had several titles over the years. Martian manhunter was long the backup series in Detective comics (characters did not need to be the "title" character to be considered to have their own series.).

Some of the edits also misrepresent what was going on at the time, by omission of detail.

The effects of various events during the time period between the DC implosion and Crisis on infinite earths. for example. Justice League, because it encompasses so many of their characters, and thus is a "cross-over" title, is often ground zero for whatever is going on in the offices at DC Comics.

We shouldn't just take some info and pull it out of the context of the time.

Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Writing_about_fiction#Contextual_presentation wouldn't be a bad place to start. - jc37 18:10, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. So, instead of touching up my edits, I have to run my edits past you until they're perfect before I can post them? Kurzon (talk) 18:49, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

Collaboration is where "we" come to consensus through discussion. We're past the being bold stage of editing.

You started with the detroit section. so we were discussing that section. You presented suggested text and so did I. I'm happy to continue to discuss them and to see your proposed edits.

Did you take a look at Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Writing_about_fiction#Contextual_presentation yet? Some of what I have been mentioning is also expressed there.

We can write in a "real-world perspective" and still present the context necessary for the reader to understand this overview of the information. - jc37 18:59, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

Right, look at this:

From the Justice League's inception in 1960 up until 1984, the team's roster always included a number of A-list characters who had their own solo books, such as Green Lantern and Superman. But in Justice League of America Annual #2 (1984), the Justice League was revised to entirely comprise more obscure characters, such as Vixen, Vibe, and Martian Manhunter. The original A-list members would not be brought back into the cast until 1996. This era of the Justice League, which lasted about two years, is popularly known as "Justice League Detroit". The impetus behind this change was to sidestep the convoluted continuities of the classic characters by using lesser-known characters, thus allowing for more character-driven stories; and to give the team a more youthful, hipper feel similar to that of the Teen Titans and the X-Men, which were selling better. The cast was multicultural: Gypsy was Romani, Vibe was Latino, Vixen was Black. However, the writing of Vibe and Gypsy was criticized for using clichés of their ethnic groups, symptomatic of writers who were well-meaning but out of touch with certain minorities, something for which said writers (Gerry Conway and Chuck Patton) later expressed regret.

I checked around and it seems that Gypsy is indeed descended from the Romani. If she were just pretending to be Romani, that would have been even more insulting, like a white guy wearing blackface. I doubt Conway and Patton were that stupid. Kurzon (talk) 07:42, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

In the Detroit bit as it is now, it says that Aquaman reformed the Justice League because he was frustrated that the members were just part-timers. That's just a contrivance that the writer used to replace the classic A-list members with obscure B and C-listers. It's not the real reason that the change happened, so we needn't bother mentioning that bit of trivia. The real reason is that the writers wanted to write character-driven stories, and using more obscure characters gave the writers more flexibility to do so. Kurzon (talk) 12:42, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

OK, here's what we do: I will make piecemeal edits to the article, and if you have issues with my content, you edit my edit. You don't revert my edit. Kurzon (talk) 21:41, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

Kurzon, you have completely BUTCHERED this article. While striving to avoid "recentism", you managed to completely ELIMINATE all reference to the book as it exists today, with the exception of the more recent collected editions and members list. Avoiding trivia is one thing, but imho as a 56 year collecter of Justice League of America and it's successor titles, you went about 200 light-years too far.Duncan Beach (talk) 04:33, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

I "butchered" a grotesque monstrosity and remade it into something sleeker. Why don't you explain in detail what is lacking? As I said, I don't think it's useful to detail the trivia of what happened in this or that comic. Kurzon (talk) 05:52, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

@Duncan Beach: I haven't read the comics in a while, so I don't know how to describe the Justice League comics of the past 15 years. Can you give me a summary of what has changed in the comics since 2006? I don't want a synopsis, I want an analytical description (comedy, epic, intimate, plot-driven, etc.) Kurzon (talk) 07:44, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

I would have to say analytically, that the series has gotten darker in the past fifteen years - The writers seem to be taking out characters permanently that even twenty years ago would've retired, been relocated somehow, etc. The stories ARE more plot-driven, here more than almost everywhere else outside novelization comics (The Dark Tower series coming immediately to mind). This is why a roster of the current AND original members of a team are vital, as well as references to retcons. Comics are not a niche item, as you'd have been able to tell easily by spending ANY amount of time in a bookstore or public library. Graphic novels and collected editions are some of the hottest sellers. Oh, and the Justice League is a seminal team -- without them, there'd have been no Avengers or Fantastic Four, nor any X-Men. I could say that American Football is a "niche market" and I'd be far more accurate than you were. You didn't make it sleeker, you just made it more useless by eliminating what you naively deemed "trivia". Art historians and collectors would agree with me. I hope you take a few moments to think about what your edits mean to a near-constant user of Wikipedia before you reply. Thanks for the time you spent reading this.

Duncan Beach (talk) 01:47, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

@Duncan Beach: Right... I'll get on it, then. Can you recommend me any sources that I could cite that describes what you just described? That would be useful. Kurzon (talk) 06:11, 27 November 2021 (UTC) {{}} You would mostly have to read the comics themselves, although magazines like Wizard might also have articles, and of course, there are plenty of websites devoted to comics to consult. If you live in the U.S.A. that should be no problem - whatever your local bookstore doesn't have, should be available at the public library, either in the stacks themselves or through inter-library loan. Duncan Beach (talk) 00:56, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

Why have large parts of this article been removed. There is nothing about the new 52 or dc rebirth eras of the justice league, even though those were important relaunches. Why is this article less detailed than the avengers one. This seems like a case of a MCU fan erasing large parts of the Justice League's history. 138.88.227.232 (talk) 22:32, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Who is Kurzon? They clearly don't know what they are talking about. Can someone report them? This is clearly an article vandalism. There's not even basic knowledge for for people who want to know a bit about the Justice League. Literally so much has been removed.

Hello, I'm 138.88.227.232. I noticed that you removed topically-relevant content from a Wikipedia article. However, Wikipedia is not censored. Please do not remove or censor information that directly relates to the subject of the article. If the content in question involves images, you have the option to configure Wikipedia to hide images that you may find offensive. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you may leave a message on my talk page. Thank you. Kurzon (unintentional vandalism/test) please don't remove information again.

Collected Editions

With the collected editions removed from this page, could we instead have a separate page listing them in the same way as [[3]] Considering [[4]] other comic based pages feature a collected edition section, I think this should follow suit, especially considering how comprehensive and informative it was GrantLucas64 (talk) 22:04, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

I have no objections to that. I will say, though, that Wikipedia is not supposed to be a sales catalog for DC Comics. I think it would be better to list story arcs, with issues and their date of publication, along with authors and editors. Kurzon (talk) 22:16, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

I understand the reasoning behind that line of thought, but considering the precedent of having things like that be catalogued on so many other pages, I think it would be odd to omit it only on this one. Especially considering the sheer amount of story arcs, a collected edition list would actually be more concise GrantLucas64 (talk) 01:50, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Graphic novels and publications have been removed

The graphic novel/collected editions section is no longer on this page. 184.103.78.255 (talk) 23:45, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Yes. This article is not supposed to be a sales catalog for DC Comics. Kurzon (talk) 00:05, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Sorry to add another discussion. I couldn’t figure out how to add it to our my previous discussion. I understand your reasoning but if you go to any other comic page it lists the collective additions or story arcs. I understand that Wikipedia is not a sales point but it seems odd that justice league is the only page that is omitting a story arc section or collected editions. I do come to this page quite often specifically to look at what story arc is next in order. I do this not just with justice league but with any of the comics that I read. Wikipedia has always been a strong sort of comic knowledge And again I point out that it’s odd that justice league is the only page that is missing the section.

On another note, I would like to thank you for everything you do and Wikipedia. 184.103.78.255 (talk) 00:15, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

That's because I removed the catalog from this article, and I haven't gotten around to fixing the other articles. There are lots of problems with superhero articles. Kurzon (talk) 09:32, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Can someone please report Kurzon? They've butchered this article. WE need this information back. It provided a concise overview of available DC collected editions. I'm begging someone please revert Kurzon's changes this article is horrendous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.88.227.232 (talk) 22:38, 24 January 2022 (UTC)