Talk:Islam in France

neutrality?

The article does give its sources but they are only two french national newspaper, they are far from giving a critical point of view of the matter. Any muslim or black or arab living in france would tell you that sayin that muslims are well integrated in france is a joke. Comparing to other european countries France is the country where someone with a muslim name have almost no chance of getting a job. However just take the time of giving soe ctritics instead of saying what the french governement says to keep everyone happy.

Standard of English in this article

The use of English language in this article is generally good, but I am concerned about several errors.

Take the following examples -

"citizens with foreign ascendency" - should be 'citizens of foreign descent'

"Christianism" - should be 'Christianity'

The following sentence is very confusing and I doubt it was written by a native speaker of English:

"Muslims in France can pretty much be distinguished according to French citizens, accustomed to France even though they may still suffer from some sort of discrimination, and Muslims immigants."

Are we to assume that the phrase 'be distinguished according to' means something like 'be divided into'?

I think the article needs to be thoroughly proofread for grammar, vocabulary and style.

86.133.239.63 22:46, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Topics that would be great to include in that article

• list of famous french muslim or of famous french from muslim extraction
  • add to List of Muslims please!
• "La plus con des religions" : le mot de Houellebecq et décision du tribunal
• différence islam et musulman (désafection religieuse des beurs)
• le hidjab ou foulard islamique a l'école et l'avis du Conseil d'Etat. Cristallisation du problème de l'intégration
• l'affaire des photos d identité
• le discours de Sarkozy
• l'antisemitisme forcené de certains mouvements islamistes et sites internet islamistes
• la mise en place du Conseil français du culte musulman
• l'UOIF
• le financement des lieux de cultes
• Lhaj Thami Breze
• Dalil Boubakeur
• Union des organisations islamiques de France

Que celui qui se trouve dans l'aisance paye selon ses propres moyens.
Que celui qui ne possède que le strict nécessaire paye en proportion de ce que Dieu lui a accordé.
Dieu n'impose quelque chose a une âme qu'en proportion de ce qu'il lui a accordé.
Dieu fera succéder l'aisance à la gène.
(Coran, §. 65. La répudiation, v.7)

The description of Islamism her leaves out an awful lot of important information that already is covered in the Islamism article. Further, the present text implies that Islamism is somehow a return to traditional Islam and the Quran. Both Muslim and non-Muslim historians state that nothing could be further from the truth; Islamism is a very modern movement, and while religiously fundamentalist, it expresses ideas and beliefs that are new to Islam. The Islamist movement is also extremely violent, and Islamists have a long history of surpressing, and often killing, moderate Muslims in large numbers. The former French colony of Algeria has seen tremendous numbers of Muslims killed by Islamists. The description of Islamism given here simply doesn't correlate to reality; returning to traditional Muslim beliefs and practices is not the same thing as what Islamist preaches. Finally, this article should not act as a rebuttal article to the already written Islamism article. Changes to the Islamism article should occur there. RK 23:58, 23 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Sorry, but it appears to me it is your description of reality that does not fit the french reality. I try to report what is from our historians and our analysts, who may have different interpretations from yours.

This version of history is a joke, as is the racist RK who thinks all Muslims just murder their opponents, thus an invitation to talk to them is a "death threat". Try the only neutral article on Islam as a political movement, and also read tarika and militant Islam and modern Islamic philosophy and consensus democracy and ijma to find good starting points for your discussion of real reality, not RK-racist-reality. And revert User:RK wherever you possibly can, it's racism not to do so - user:142.177.etc

I basically agree. I'll look for more information specific to Islamism in France, and other Muslim developments in that country. Some commentators have shown that the strategies of Islamists are adapted according to the countries in which adherents reside, even if their ultimate aim is no less ambitious. If this is so, I would expect to see that in France - a democracy gives powerful tools to minorities, by which to pursue their aims - which I understood this article to be hinting at. Observations of how local manifestations of a movement have a different character than when seen in another locale, or on a global scale, are important; and this in itself does not contradict anything that the Islamism article says. Mkmcconn 02:08, 24 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I appreciated the "However, in Algeria, the situation is different, and events there may ultimately affect the posture of Islamists in France itself." because I thought your edit yesterday was somehow shadowing this. It should go further, as Islamists in France affect Algerian politics.

Please add them to Islamic party as well. - user:142.177.etc

"Since influence in French politics is possible without resorting to violence, the use of violence in that context is considered counterproductive toward acheiving their goal of integrating the political system according to the principles of Islam." would be missing part of the point. Islamists are not so much trying to integrate the french political system, than using France as a step to get the power in Algeria. They establish networks, use french muslim students, cultivate the "powerlessness" of youngs in suburbs, collect money and weapons. It is not so much (or only) that Islamists in France try to influence internal french politics. Talking about islamism in France cannot be dissociated of Algeria.

It's true anywhere that where there is an electoral path to power, violence is much less emphasized. - user:142.177.etc

I am making a french traduction of this article, and I have a question and a comment.

Question: Is it possible to have the french version of this sentence of Olivier Roy, as it would be better than a french traduction of an english traduction : Olivier Roy calls Islamists those which see in Islam a political ideology, in the modern sense of the term, "ideology". In other words a theory which presumes to entirely understand the social side of a society, in political terms.

Comment: I think we should make a distinction between islamist and fundamentalist. Islamists are those among muslims who want their religion to have more influence in the state. In France, what they openly want is a removal of the ban on headscarves, for example. In Turkey, they rule the state, wanted to make a law criminalyzing extra-conjugal intercourse, but finnally did not, for reasons of realpolitik. Fundamentalists are those, among islamists, whose ideology and purpose is application of the chariah. This separation seems for me very potent, as it can separate the rise of a mainstream conservative muslim movment among muslims in both France and Turkey that has goals I don't like, but that is decent, peacful, and respectful of democratic institutions, dans the fundamentalism, that can be compared to extreme right in Europa.

"Moderate islamists" are for example, those 40% of muslims, in France, who consider the Republic and the equality among men and whomen as important values for the naion and themselves (as 90% do in France), but who wish that the headscarf was not banned from french schools (as 56% do in France).

Berru (I have no accound in en:wikipedia, but one in fr:wikipedia)

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"it is illegal in France to keep records in computerized files"

Interesting. Would this make a Wikipedia article that named a person's religion illegal in France? ( 11:58, 24 Sep 2003 (UTC)

No.

You are right that this strongly needs to be rephrased. The government or firms, do not have the right to ask someone what their religion is in application forms. Neither their color. Nor their ethnic background (a word we do not use much). Typically, when one enter a hospital, and fill the registration card, the card does not ask ethnic background. This is interesting to note, because my memory of the US was that pregnancy management was different when people came from one ethic background or another (based on likelyness of some genetic disease). Similar for CV. An employer is not supposed to refuse a job applicant because of his origin. Obviously, it is easy for an employer to notice the name (Michel Durant will not have the same "meaning" than "Abdel Touitou") or the color of skin. However, if the rejected applicant was to juridically attack an employer, and a file be found where people are listed by origin or religious, I say the employer would be in big trouble.

Text that needs to be clarified: "It was largely through reactive measures that the movement that is labelled Islamist came to be visible to the West, where it was labelled as being a distinct movement from Islam, pan-Arabism and resistance to colonization. "

What does it mean to be labelled as "a distinct movement from Islam"? Few would deny that Islamists are Muslims; few would deny that Islamism is a form of Islam. However, modern scholars of religion, and most Arab Muslims, believe that Islamism is a new form of Islam, and one that is not as traditional as it claims to be. Islamists claim that they are only asking for a return to traditional Islam, but much of their program is a new ideology that was created in response to the modern world.

Read fiqh to understand the reality here. - user:142.177.etc

I wish to stress that the idea of Islamism as a new phenomenon is not a western concept, but one held by many Muslims themselves. In fact, although not commonly known in the west, a great many Muslims have a conspiracy theory that the Islamist movement was actually created by western nations in order to discredit Islam. RK 23:23, 24 Sep 2003 (UTC)

German, British and American empires have all actually promoted jihad as a way to get their way when it suited them. Again, see Islam as a political movement (uncensored version). - user:142.177.etc

which is probably we often separate islamism (as a political ideology, those who want to be build a State, for example the FIS), fundamentalists (who have only one political request : application of the charia, and who consider a society is automatically islamist as soon as every person is a good muslim), and neo-fundamentalist (who occupy the space left by islamism, those who do not have the Nation-State to identify to, for example the GIA). The third one being a new form of Islam, one that is often referred to as "la maladie de l'Islam" in France (Islam disease).

I object to your rephrasing "Islamists want to influence the laws of the State they live in.". The islamists living in France do not only try to influence the french laws. They try to recruit new people to support the cause, they distribute coran books to the population, they bomb buildings and cars to spread terror, they accumulate weapons and money to fight in *other* countries than France. They use France as a step, build networks, and try to influence french foreigh policy.

I strongly assume that Islamist groups in France desire, ultimately, to guide France itself toward the goal of an Islamic state at every opportunity that might present itself. But, I tweaked RK's edit to make it less nationalistic. Mkmcconn 01:19, 25 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Why? DanKeshet 01:32, Sep 25, 2003 (UTC)

In part, because Islamism is typified by anti-nationalism. The sentence should not imply that Islamists are interested in influencing only the laws of the State they live in; and anyway, I don't think that it was RK's intention to say that it should imply this. Mkmcconn 01:38, 25 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Sorry, I was unclear. Why do you assume that Islamist groups in France desire, ultimately, to guide France itself toward the goal of an Islamic state at every opportunity that might present itself? DanKeshet

Because Muslims live in France; and Islamists consider it a burden and injustice for Muslims to live under the government of non-Muslims, deprived of the advantages of shari'a. I do not doubt the sincerity of Islamists who claim that democracy is a legitimate means to that end (and do not seem desparate to get there suddenly), and who denounce violence as counterproductive (at least in the local contexts where their numbers and influence do not imply a mandate for rule, for example, of France, or, the U.S.). But, I would find their position incomprehensible if they claim not to think that sharia is ultimately preferrable to secular rule everywhere, and if they would not welcome the opportunities to guide the laws of whatever countries they live in toward the acceptance of it. So, "I strongly assume" that this is the way it is, because I cannot make sense of their position otherwise. Mkmcconn 21:10, 25 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I also object to the removal of "an islamist may be a fundamentalist or not". Do you remove it because you consider it is already clear enough from what is said above, or do you remove it because you consider it false ? If so, I will just try to find quotes to attribute the point.

I put it back in with an attempt at more clearly explaining the point of difference. Mkmcconn 01:38, 25 Sep 2003 (UTC)

thanks. That is better imho. What do you think RK ?

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The first sentence refers to people "of Muslim extraction". Has Islam attracted any French converts or can all Muslims in France trace lineage to Muslim immigrants? DanKeshet 01:32, Sep 25, 2003 (UTC)

I will try to find numbers. There are some converts, but I think the numbers are very low compared the people of muslim faith coming from (more or less recent) immigration. I know 3 person over 4 come from Algeria, Marocco and Tunisia. There are people from several other countries from Maghreb, which is why we more often refer to "Maghrébin" than to "Arabe". People from Mali come in quite significant numbers too right now. All this immigration essentially comes from after WWII, though some got in France after WWI, and are still aware of their ancestry. That would be interesting to find conversion estimates.

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I've been cleaning up some of the grammar in this article, and wikifying many words. What is Orthodoxism (first paragraph)? This article is the only one which mentions it. When I searched Orthodox instead, I got Russian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Jewish Orthodox etc etc. Which one does this statistic refer to? --Fabiform 18:55, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Oh, apologies, cultural bias :-). When french refers to their orthodox, they talk about the catholicism orthodoxie. The jewish orthodox are usually classified in the jewish religion. I will ask to our 3 specialists on the french wikipedia, how they can more precisely define that if you wish Anthere

• thanks for such a quick reply Anthere. I'd never even heard of Orthodox Catholicism so I wouldn't have guessed correctly! I've changed Orthodoxism to Orthodox Catholicism, but I haven't been able to find a sensible page to link it to on wikipedia for an explanation. So if you can find a good one... go ahead! Cheers. --Fabiform 14:18, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Got my page :-) Here you go : w:fr:Orthodoxie

There are two meaning to the word, so both are explained right now in the page. The one which interest us is

2. l'Orthodoxie, confessions (et non religion) du Christianisme, à savoir l'ensemble des patriarcats Orthodoxes des christianismes orientaux, au nombre de 4 + 1 (Moscou dissident Kiev ou le contraire), territoires canoniques qui représentent les églises des 7 conciles, mais les églises des 2 et des 3 conciles se revendiquent aussi "Orthodoxes" et sont moins territoriales puisque, du fait de l'histoire des hérésies, leurs membres nestoriens, coptes et arméniens furent chassés par les orthodoxes au premier sens du terme.

More precisions on some of the churches here : w:fr:Églises des 7 conciles

You read french I hope ?

Anthere

• I do read French, but I'm still a little confused (mostly because I know very little about the subject of Christian denominations). So it says that Orthodoxy is not a relgion in its own right but refers to certain Christian denominatons. It specifically mentions eastern Christianity... do you think that Eastern Orthodoxy would be the best article to link to, and that perhaps I shouldn't have renamed it Catholic Orthodoxy? Obviously, tell me if I've misinterpreted the French! I see you've linked to this French article, but I think we should link to something in the English language if at all possible because users of the English Wikipedia are obviously not all likely to speak French.  :) Fabiform 19:41, 20 Jan 2004 (UTC)

What Anthere appears to be referring to is Eastern Orthodoxy -- the Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, etc. churches. Ben

Right, we're agreed then Ben. I'll change it to Eastern Orthodoxy, unless ofd course Anthere comes back and tells us differently. Fabiform

No, I think it is really fine. Read the article, it seems to fit well. I linked it to the french article because I had no idea what the english article would be; and look, you found it :-) Anthere

I checked with one of my friend, who converted himself to eastern orthodoxy 2 years ago. As a reminder, numbers of followers of a specific religion are difficult to estimate since this is not really legal to ask someone his religion. But according to him, the number offered here (150000) is the number of French Eastern Orthodox (ie, from the french church). Estimates of total orthodox are probably more about 200000 right now. Most of the additionnal 50000 are romanians, who emigrated in France after Ceaucescu falls (so, an immigration going less than 10 years ago, I remember many romanians moved to France in 1993-1994). Most of those were illegal immigrants then, but since papers are no more requested to come in now, there are legal :-) Still, most of those belong not to the french church, but to a sort of branch of the Romanian Church located in France. I found no estimates of their real numbers, but these numbers have greatly increased the orthodox community in the past years. Since most of these people are not french, and do not belong to the french church, it seems they are perhaps not counted as Orthodox in most papers.

Here we are :-)

Anthere

Legal recognition

Contrary to what was implied, France does not legally recognize religious affiliations (except for very specific purposes, such as military chaplaincy) and is actually explicitly prevented from doing so from a 1905 law. The CFCM is a private organization that the public powers recognize informally. (France does recognize religious organizations though, but it's mostly for tax purposes. There is also, for practical purposes, some official list of holidays of the major religions.) David.Monniaux 09:50, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Islam in France before 1830

This article seems historically shallow. The article Population transfer mentions (rather oddly located in the section Expulsion of Jews and Gypsies) that Muslims in France were expelled in the 14th century, implying there are at least five centuries of Islam in France (and almost certainly more) not accounted for here. Does anyone have information on this? -- Jeff Q 13:14, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

this article is certainly shallow in many areas. I just tried to make a canvas. And some people added information here and there. Please, any help is welcome. I think it should be an important article. SweetLittleFluffyThing

Please forgive me. The term "shallow" was inexcusably rude. I'm afraid I'm too ignorant to contribute to this article myself. I hope that your initial work continues to be augmented by others. -- Jeff Q 16:20, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Oh, but do not worry :-) I was not offended. I spent a while on it, but I know very very well, it is very far from complete or neutral. It is very much a work in progress and really need input. In fact, at least 3 or 4 articles were developped from it (such as the one on the veil ban), so I was very happy. Any work to improve this one will be a good news as well. You are welcome to add any bit to it. No offense taken :-) SweetLittleFluffyThing 20:09, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Regarding the issue of historical depth, I just looked at the Jews in France article, which strikes me as a good model to strive for in terms of thoroughness. But, alas, I'm not the one to do it. Maybe after a few more years of grad school... JJM 00:47, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

"Islam in France before 1830s?" well, I think we'll need a CIA worldbook, a KGB description of the world, and maybe God's POV to allege things like that :-)

Attacks '85-'86

I removed

Attacks in the 1985-1986

13 dead and 250 wounded.

It clearly needs to be expanded upon or dropped. Jasongetsdown 18:02, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

The dead students are not "of Muslim extraction". They were Muslims. They might have been "of Algerian extraction" or "of Moroccan extraction" or whatever, but that is used for geographical relocation. Literally "drawn out of" or extracted from their country of origin or, as the expression is used now, their parents' or grandparents' original country. But they were not in any way extracted from the Muslim faith.

NO ORIGINAL RESEARCH PLEASE

I'm sorry, but there is no civil war in France, and we don't expect to see one soon. If some people want to fantasm about Islam, 11-S, "Islamism" or whatever, well, just remember: NO ORIGINAL RESEARCH !!! Lapaz

Ramadan = Thanksgiving

"most observe the fast of Ramadan, which is comparable to the Thanksgiving holiday in the United States and Canada" (???) OK, it usually happens in December, but surely Ramadan has more in common with the Christian 'Lent' - the supposed period of fasting, preparation and introspection before Easter?. 160.84.253.241 08:49, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

6 million muslims

I removed the following text : "In 2005, reports indicate that France has approximately 6 million Muslims composing of 10% of the total population.", which had an article of the "Pittsburgh Post-Gazette" as a source (and apparently as the "report"). Regardless of whether the Post Gazette is a reputable source or not, the number conflicts with numbers extracted from french census quoted before that as well as the official estimate from the French Ministry. Since I doubt the Pittshburgh Post Gazette conducted its own census or survey in France, I can only assume it's one of those "established facts" that come from nowhere. 82.231.41.7 11:24, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

According to US Dept. of State 2006, there are 10% muslims in France, which is roughly 6 million. Source: http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3842.htm

What does this sentence mean?

"Critics in particular are the Monde diplomatique and the Canard Enchaîné."

Critics of what? It's not very clear in context... AnonMoos 14:14, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Unclear word

The word "Recuperations" doesn't appear to be used in its ordinary English meaning as a section title, and I'm not sure what meaning was meant. AnonMoos 14:29, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

This might be a gallicism; the meaning is that people use particular fact for a design, typically for petty politics. Maybe "spinning" convoys the meaning in English. Rama 15:24, 1 November 2006 (UTC)