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{{WikiProjectBannerShell|blp=yes|1=
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{{WikiProject Biography|living=yes|class=B|musician-priority=mid|musician-work-group=yes|listas=Dir En Grey}}
{{WikiProject Biography|musician-priority=mid|musician-work-group=yes}}
{{WikiProject Japan|class=C|importance=mid|music=yes}}
{{WikiProject Japan|importance=mid|music=y}}
{{WikiProject Metal|class=B|importance=mid}}
{{WikiProject Metal}}
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{{Archive box|[[/Archive 1|Archive 1 (2004–2014)]]}}
{{Archive box|[[/Archive 1|Archive 1 (2004–2006)]]}}

== Ads ==
Under each of the members own seperate articals it looks like a giant Ad for ESP Guitars. i think someone should at least tone it down. Im to lazy to fix or leave a notice under every article so I'll leave it here. [[User:Setsuka13|Setsuka13]] <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|comment]] was added at 02:20, 21 May 2008 (UTC)</small><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Besides main genre adding... ==

What about genre adding in albums and singles?

Thoughts?

[[User:AKnot|AKnot]] 01:43, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

:How about a section in this article titled "Style and subject matter" which elaborates on the band's stylistic development and the content of the lyrics? This would be a lot more informative than adding individual genres to infoboxes of every release which is bound to spark lengthy discussions in several cases ("It's hard rock." - "No, I think it's metal." - "You know, it has a certain pop appeal..."). I've been meaning to start such a section for quite some time, but I never seem to get around to it. - [[User:Cyrus XIII|Cyrus XIII]] 11:02, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

:That's agreeable. After typing the question, I was thinking of that spark discussion as well. That would be a great idea! Describing them originally as a regular J-Rock band and then evolve to more of a metalcore like band. [[User:AKnot|AKnot]] 01:25, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

::Don't forget that J-rock and visual kei are not music genres per se, as they really do not describe the style of music at all (except origin and outfits of the artists and maybe the language used). I'd rather use genre handles very sparsely and if any, only more common ones, in order to make the text accessible to people who are not familiar with rock music from Japan. - [[User:Cyrus XIII|Cyrus XIII]] 09:35, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

:::All right. I might begin the section soon. [[User:AKnot|AKnot]] 05:30, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

::::Done. I would also need help in it to make it look perfect. I got to listen to Agitated Scream of Maggots, do you think it has some [[swedecore]] influences? [[User:AKnot|AKnot]] 02:20, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I gave the section a small rewrite, limiting the number of genres mentioned, not going too much into detail (song examples) and trying to have it come a bit more directly from the music found on those records, instead of repeating stuff thrown around at web based discussions on this matter. Hope this works for the most people. Sorry about those half-a-dozen-something minor edits following the big one, I could certainly use more sleep these days.

In other news: I'm trying to come up with good tracks to take samples from, in order to illustrate the band's work with actual audio. I would say three would be well in the limits of fair use, one from ''Gauze'', one from ''Kisou'' and one from ''Withering to Death''. Suggestions? - [[User:Cyrus XIII|Cyrus XIII]] 07:30, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Cage (Gauze), Filth (Kisou), The Final or (Withering to death.). I believe those are good suggestions. If it was possible to have more, I would also suggest Macabre (Macabre), umbrella (six Ugly), Obscure (Vulgar), and Grief (The Marrow of A Bone). [[User:AKnot|AKnot]] 02:23, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

==Definition of "Messy" CLEAN UP BANNER==
The banner that noted that this section should be cleaned up has been removed I guess until I further clarify what the definition of "messy" is. Particularly what needs fixing is the syntax and the grammar of the article. For example, I will take a typical sentence style that is scattered all around the article.
"This caught the attention of Yoshiki Hayashi of X Japan fame, who produced and arranged the singles of their subsequent album, Gauze, released in 1999."
Just minor things like that, I feel it needs to be more formal and not so "stylized". Dec 11 2006 12:34 [[User:Xcuref1endx|xcuref1endx]] (UTC)

:Apparently you are concerned about the article's style, not the grammar as stated in you original edit summary. Thanks for clearing this up. Well, if these issues are so minor, what exactly keeps you from fixing them? Delegating the task like this might very well result in the banner being removed after a while, because no one agreed with your initial complaint. I certainly do not. While an article can always be more formal, this one is still in a much better shape than many of its peers in terms of style and the subsequent NPOV. But this should not keep you from [[WP:BB|being bold]]. Oh and one last thing: New discussion topics go to the bottom of the page. - [[User:Cyrus XIII|Cyrus XIII]] 09:35, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

:I fixed some of the grammar. I am not an expert on the band, but I've made some minor changes for clarity. I am new, so sorry if I missed anything up. Thanks, and I hope I helped more than I messed up! [[User:Goyston|Goyston]] 04:59, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

:I have rephrased and simplified several sentences as well and if nobody objects, I will remove the cleanup tag within a day or two. - [[User:Cyrus XIII|Cyrus XIII]] 09:14, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

:So what genre ARE they? I know it's not metal. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/149.175.100.35|149.175.100.35]] ([[User talk:149.175.100.35|talk]]) 20:29, 13 March 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Clean-up ==

I have removed the first sentences that was not important information, then we need some citations, for example that they were the first indie and to enter at the top 10 of the Oricon, i guess that this isn't true so X Japan entered 10 years before as you already know. Then we need also some citations for the Kyo injuries, and then i have deleted the paragraph from the line-up section, most of the bands use nickname and not their first name: Pata ([[Tomoaki Ishizuka]]) for example, or [[Klaha]], [[Közi]], etc. <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[Special:Contributions/81.184.87.104|81.184.87.104]] ([[User talk:81.184.87.104|talk]]) 18:32, 2 January 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->

:Your edits have been reverted for the following reasons:
:*Subjects such as current or founding lineup as well as genre are deemed important enough for the first paragraph in most band-related articles on Wikipedia. After all, this paragraph is supposed to deliver a basic overview.
:*The singles X Japan released as an independent band (namely [[I'll Kill You]] and [[Orgasm (song)|Orgasm]] are conspicuously absent from [http://www.oricon.co.jp/artists/s/26180/ the group's Oricon listing].
:*The matter of [[stage name]]s (or nicknames, as you call them) had already been addressed in the paragraph you removed, which was there to make the article more accessible to people not familiar with Japanese bands.
:*Other information you removed is easily verifiable through the band's official website, which is linked no less than twice in this article.
:Please remember: While Wikipedia encourages you to be bold in updating articles, try to remain considerate at the same time (see [[WP:BB]]). - [[User:Cyrus XIII|Cyrus XIII]] 19:26, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

== Saku video ==

why isnt it on the videography?[[User:Quatreryukami|Quatreryukami]] 19:49, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

:The videography covers video-related releases on VHS and DVD, such as concerts and music video collections. The "Saku" video and it's relation to the one for "Kodou" is actually mentioned in the notes for ''Average Fury'' and ''Average Psycho''. - [[User:Cyrus XIII|Cyrus XIII]] 03:23, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

== Name change ==

Since in Wikipedia, the names of bands are kept with their respective capitalizations, I was wondering if Dir en grey should be moved to DIERENGREY. If you notice on the latest album, the name is written this way consistently on both the cover and within the booklet. I won't move until sufficient responses have been made, but wouldn't this be considered an official name change? --[[User:Notjake13|Jake]] 22:10, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

:Actually Wikipedia does not always follow official capitalization, as it has a few [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style (trademarks)|stylistic guidelines]] regarding trademarks. Also, before making any wide reaching changes, I would suggest to wait and see whether there has indeed been a permanent change in spelling (Dir en grey → Direngrey). Several pages of the official website still use the variant with two spaces. - [[User:Cyrus XIII|Cyrus XIII]] 23:10, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

::Okay, well, as far as capitalization issues, I was speaking of how the page is titled ''Dir en grey'' rather than ''Dir en Grey'' or ''Dir En Grey'' as some places require. Thanks for your input. --[[User:24.176.1.18|24.176.1.18]] 14:26, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

:::If you look at the [http://direngrey.co.jp/ official site] you will see "''Dir en grey''" everywhere. I don't know about the latest album, but it seems that at least the official site still uses this capitalization. --[[User:Analoguedragon|analoguedragon]] 19:04, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

:::: Yes please change the capitalization to Dir en grey, as their CD's, official site and merchandise have it this way as well and have done so since inception. This should be the first reference the name but the last mentioned would instead be Dir En Grey as most people who are new the band use this style. When you view their albums and you see the image of their album cover, the cover it self is written as Dir en grey. Please change all pages to this formatting. The beginning sentence on the page is misrepresenting the actual titling. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/98.206.39.87|98.206.39.87]] ([[User talk:98.206.39.87|talk]]) 15:06, 18 November 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Separate articles for concert tours ==

More recently, some articles have been created to illustrate the band's individual tours. While precedents for such pages exist on Wikipedia, they usually document live efforts by bands who are arguably far more notable than Dir en grey, with internationally successful careers spanning not just barely one but several decades (like [[:Metallica]], [[:The Rolling Stones]] and [[:U2]]). Apart from information already covered by related articles (like this one or the those dealing with the band's extensive [[:Dir en grey discography#Videography|videography]]) and content copied from the [http://www.direngrey.co.jp/english/e-timeline.html official website's timeline], these articles largely rely on unsourced material. On a lesser note, some also appear to require cleanup with Wikipedia's style guidelines in mind (i.e. [[WP:ALBUMS]]).

The links to these articles from this one have been removed for the time being, until aforementioned [[Wikipedia:Notability|notability]], [[Wikipedia:Verifiability|verifiability]] and potential [[Wikipedia:Copyrights|copyright]] issues have been resolved. If someone would like to make improvements, the respective meta article can be found here: ''[[:List of Dir en grey concert tours]]'' - [[User:Cyrus XIII|Cyrus XIII]] 02:29, 25 February 2007 (UTC)


After reading the article in question, I agree that all problems stated exist. I would also like to say that, being most of the concerts listed have little or no data associated with them, I would even go so far as to say delete it. There's just not enough content to be considered encyclopic. Maybe I'm going too far, but that's what I think. [[User:Quatreryukami|Quatreryukami]] 17:42, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

==Style and Subject Matter==
Err, this sentence doesn't seem to make much sense:
:Had certain songs up to that point already been decidedly more fast-paced, raw and aggressive than their peers, the band's music took a turn with the release of the EP Six Ugly, sporting more metal influences from then on in general.
[[User:Ambrosia-|Ambrosia-]] 04:33, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

:I will try to rewrite that passage tomorrow, ok? - [[User:Cyrus XIII|Cyrus XIII]] 03:20, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

== Picture from the "Visual Kei" period. ==

I think it is necessary to have a picture from Dir en grey's "Visual Kei" period, as that is part of their history. For the American audience, Visual Kei is an unknown thing, and while there is a small page on it, it is better represented by an image. Does anybody have suggested images or think it to be unnecessary?

Also, so as to not clog the talk page, I'll add here that I changed the word "appearances" in the festival notation in the final paragraph, as "appearing" somewhere is different than "performing" somewhere. Example being, [[Ozzy Osborne]] appears at ever [[Ozzfest]] summer festival, but does not ''perform'' at every show.--[[User:Notjake13|Jake]] 11:35, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

:Regarding Visual Kei, for purposes of history only, yes, but if it will be used as decoration then no. Is there a Public or Fair Use image? [[User:Quatreryukami|Quatreryukami]] 02:33, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

:Good point on the semantics (I was employing the word "appearance" merely for the sake of diversifying the wording). As for the visual kei thing, I believe a Gauze/Macabre era group shot would help to illustrate the band's early career, but I doubt that there is a public image available and I'm not sure whether this is an ample case for further stressing fair use for this article. - [[User:Cyrus XIII|Cyrus XIII]] 08:24, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

::Well, then why don't we go the Rationale route, and get someone to write us a Copyright template for Japanese band related Pictures? Or am I being too [[WP:BOLD]]? [[User:Quatreryukami|Quatreryukami]] 15:48, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

:::Given the current climate towards fair use content (note the recent changes to [[:Dir en grey discography]]), I guess adding another copyrighted promo shot of the band just isn't the way to go. - [[User:Cyrus XIII|Cyrus XIII]] 01:35, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

::::Yeah, there seems to be a lot of anal users about this. How 'bout Fair Use? Does anyone know where to find one? I know not Wikimedia Commons (:D). Maybe some fan photos from a personal website, whats the rules for that? [[User:Quatreryukami|Quatreryukami]] 02:08, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

:::::Get the permission of the owner of the fan page or whoever took the shots. [[User:Ambrosia-|Ambrosia-]] 03:45, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

== Associated Acts ==

Should La:Sadie's or D+L be included in the "Associated Acts" section of the infobox?--[[User:Notjake13|Jacob]] 19:47, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
:<s>No clue who D+L is, but I'm sure that [[La_Sadie's]] should be.</s>
:Nevermind, the article for the band now just redirects to Dir en grey. ~[[User:Ambrosia-|<font color="black" face="Fixedsys"><u>Ambrosia-</u></font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Ambrosia-|talk]]</sup> 02:06, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

::Even though it does redirect, it should still be placed there, as not everyone knows that they are not the same band (though they very nearly are). D+L is the old band of Toshiya, he was previously in both Gosick and D+L (but most notably D+L).--[[User:Notjake13|Jacob]] 02:32, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

:The infobox manual is not specific on this, but personally, I only add acts to that field, which actually have an article of their own, in order to ease navigation for the reader, without unnecessarily bloating the box. By the way, while this might be one of those "facts" everyone knows, we probably should have a citation for La:Sadie's. - [[User:Cyrus XIII|Cyrus XIII]] 11:37, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

::Well, JMusic Europa is generally a fairly accurate source, and their [http://www.jmusiceuropa.com/uk/database-artist.php?id=35/ La:Sadie's] page seems to be a good citation. There are also magazine scans that announced when La:Sadie's became Dir en grey, and the fact that Toshiya was the new member. Just a thought though, nothing necessary.--[[User:Notjake13|Jacob]] 15:56, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
:::I'd consider JaME mostly reliable when it comes to news (since they name their sources) and interviews. Their artist profiles though strike me as no more verifiable than those on, say, ThePPN. - [[User:Cyrus XIII|Cyrus XIII]] 17:27, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
::::I can see where you're coming from there, because many of their editors are fairly opinionated.--[[User:Notjake13|Jacob]] 17:52, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I changed the "Lineup" section. Changed "the artists are credited with their first names" to GIVEN names, because in Japanese, the family name comes first. Hope nobody minds.

== Exact formation date ==

The date of their exact formation isn't available on Wikipedia, however, it is generally accepted among fasn as February 2, 1997. I was browsing through the Yarouze magazine, which features an entire detailed history and profile of the band, and the history section includes February 2nd as a formation date. This source is in Japanese, but is as official as any other publication. Scans can be provided.--[[User:Notjake13|Jacob]] 15:47, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

:Scans would be appreciated, thanks. Do you have a publication date on that issue of the magazine? Coupled with a page number, I'd say we got ourselves a decent source then. - [[User:Cyrus XIII|Cyrus XIII]] 18:51, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

::It is on page [http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g109/notjake13/gauze_b_y022.jpg 23], and the publishing date is October 2, 1999. Here it is on [http://books.yahoo.co.jp/book_detail/07055591 Yahoo! Books], listed with its October publishing date, and on [http://www.amazon.co.jp/Dir-en-grey%E3%82%84%E3%82%8D%E3%81%86%E3%81%9C/dp/4796616136/ref=sr_1_1/250-8225576-1799468?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1182747859&sr=8-1 Amazon.co.jp], still available for purchase. Here is the [http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g109/notjake13/gauze_b_y094.jpg cover] and detail of the [http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g109/notjake13/naoki5150-img450x600-1177589345dir3.jpg table of contents]. The information is contained in the "Dir's HISTORY" section.--[[User:Notjake13|Jacob]] 05:30, 25 June 2007 (UTC)


==The Band's Name==

I found this information on the Japanese Wikipedia. I don't know if this is common knowledge or not, nor if this has been discussed before.

Dir en greyの意は、「Dir」はドイツ語で「銀貨」、「en」はフランス語で「～の」、「grey」は英語で「灰色」を合わせ、“灰色の銀貨”という意味であるとされている。(但し、実際にはドイツ語に「Dir」という単語は存在しない)

"According to Dir en grey, 'Dir' is German for 'silver coin,' 'en' is French for 'of,' and grey is English for 'grey.' Together, it means 'a silver coin of grey.' (However, there is no such word as 'Dir' in the German language)"

Is this information indeed correct, and is it relevant to the article? The only problem I see with it is that it's unscourced. This seems to be a recurring problem on Japanese Wikipedia.

(And yes, I know 灰色の銀貨 would be less literally, "a grey silver coin." I was just translating it with "en=of" in mind (is that accurate? I don't know a lick of French))

[[User:Chibi Gohan|Chibi Gohan]] 10:20, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

:I agree about the Japanese Wikipedia and I'd even go as far as saying that this reference issue is a general problem with every version in certain areas (the English one just receives more input). The only actual source we currently have on the name is the interview from that recent Spike TV show, were the band stated that the name was supposed to be a mix of languages that wasn't supposed to mean anything (beside "Dir en grey" of course). I guess that makes any attempts to translate the name in parts or as a whole rather pointless. Also I have no idea how one could translate "dir" with "silver coin". German is my native language and to my best knowledge (and [http://dict.leo.org/ende?search=dir Leo]) these words don't have any connection. - [[User:Cyrus XIII|Cyrus XIII]] 10:56, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Odd. So Dir is actually a word, but there isn't any connection to "silver coin." I suppose the "there is no such word as dir in the German language" comment was due to the Japanese editors lacking an understanding of German.

I would try to edit that out of the Japanese article, but I don't know quite enough Japanese to explain to the Japanese editors what the problem is (and, I don't really care that much :P).

Anyway, thank you for your input!

[[User:Chibi Gohan|Chibi Gohan]] 13:20, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

I assumed their name was a japanisation of the everyouthful Oscar Wilde character [Dorian Gray|Dorian Gray] <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/143.167.243.101|143.167.243.101]] ([[User talk:143.167.243.101|talk]]) 00:36, 21 November 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

The band has been asked about the meaning of their name before, and they've always told interviewers that it doesn't actually mean anything. They purposely chose a name that doesn't have any real meaning behind it. I think the name of the Wiki article should be changed to "Dir en grey" without the capitalizations of the E and G. That's how it is written on their CDs, merchandise, etc. It has also been written as "DIR EN GREY", but never "Dir En Grey". <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/76.123.50.12|76.123.50.12]] ([[User talk:76.123.50.12|talk]]) 21:57, 16 July 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:Please see the move request at the bottom of the page. [[User:YumeChaser|<font color="Gold">夢</font>]][[User talk:YumeChaser|<font color="orange">追人</font>]]<font color="black"><sup>YumeChaser</sup></font> 22:05, 16 July 2010 (UTC)


Their name should ONLY be typeset as → Dir en grey ← with only the first D in capitals. This band is Japanese and they don't go by "Standard English Text Formatting", and shouldn't be threathed as an English/American band. Their name is a play on words and typset as Dir en grey and not Dir En Grey/Dir en Grey. ALL their official CD/DVD-releases has their name typeset as Dir en grey, and also all their official promotion and merchandise products, from the very beginning in 1997, same goes with their official logotype (Even in America) and official homepage. I wonder if you people who moderate this site even listen to this band? All other Wikipedia sites in other languages has them typeset as Dir en grey, why shouldn't the English/American profile do the same? Shouldn't Wikipedia have only legit information about stuff? This is not legit typsetting as it is now, and I'll be disappointed on Wikipedia if this is won't be changed into the correct typset Dir en grey. Dir en grey is correct, change it now. Thank you very much.

[[User:Killinstinct|Killinstinct]] ([[User talk:Killinstinct|talk]]) 21:37, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

:I'm going to start off by saying that you are obviously wrong. If you look at their official Japanese ''or'' English website ([http://www.direngrey.co.jp/ here]), you don't see "Dir en grey" at all, you see "DIR EN GREY". And while some albums use the name "Dir en grey", newer ones like ''[[The Marrow of a Bone]]''—which I own—also use "DIR EN GREY". Now I'm going to head on to my main point which is that it ''doesn't matter at all whatsoever'' if this is an American, British, or Japanese band. It only matters what language their band name is in. If it was Japanese, it would have to be capitalized following [[MOS:J]], but since it's not, and since there's no real language that the band name is in, we use standard capitalization rules. Again, please read [[MOS:TM]]. <span style="border: 1px solid #c40000; background: #fff; padding: 1px; font-size: 10px;">[[User:mx3|<span style="background: white 0% 0%; color: #c40000;">mx3]] [[User talk:mx3|<span style="background: #c40000; color: #fff; text-decoration: none; padding: 0px 2px;">話</span>]]</span> 23:15, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

:: No, I know because they are using DIR EN GREY as an additional typesetting since 2007. ALL their stuff from 1997→2007 has officially been Dir en grey, they started using DIR EN GREY as an additional style on DOZING GREEN single in 2007 and has been DIR EN GREY since then. I have been a fan of this band since 2002 and they have NEVER (yes, NEVER) used Dir En Grey. As I said before, Why do you keep accepting [[bob hund]] to be bob hund on the English Wikipedia, but not Dir en grey to be typset as Dir en grey?? That make no sense at all for me. Stop bitching about this English Standard-rule, because their name is not English!! I want to hear your other arguments, because that only English Standard-rule is not good enough, give me your other arguments. [[User:Killinstinct|Killinstinct]] ([[User talk:Killinstinct|talk]]) 23:46, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

I'd just like to pitch in my two cents and say I would approve of and support Killinstinct's proposed name change and changing of typesetting as well, since, he's right, this isn't an American or British band, it's a Japanese band, and it was Dir en grey's intent to have their name typeset as "Dir en grey" and more recently "DIR EN GREY" instead of "Dir en Grey" or "Dir En Grey". It isn't Wikipedia's right to say how the band's name is typeset, it's theirs. In addition, capitalizing it with Standard English Text Formatting is incorrect and can mislead new fans of the band, which defeats the purpose of Wikipedia, which is to provide correct information. (bring on the flames) [[User:Arashi nightmare|Arashi nightmare]] ([[User talk:Arashi nightmare|talk]]) 03:23, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

== MySpace removed. ==

Recently, the MySpace was hacked by an anonymous person and this was proven with a bulletin.
It will (or already) be removed until further notice. [[User:NaotoATG|NaotoATG]] 02:00, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

==Free Will==

The arrests of Free Will officials has everything to do with Dir en grey, the money was used defrauded using Dir en grey (and other bands) as an excuse, and was used to fund costs for bands signed to the label. Including tours, music videos, producing their records, and so on. [[User:219.90.229.216|219.90.229.216]] 06:35, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

==International Success==

A list of Japanese musicians with success outside Asia. There are many more, but this list is big enough, and features musicians from many genres.

Stop writing that Dir en grey is one of the few, or notable Japanese musicians to have international success.

Akiko Yano, Yellow Magic Orchestra, Toshiko Akiyoshi, Pizzicato Five, Murahachibu, Tatsuro Yamashita, Kazumi Watanabe, Joji Hirota, Vow Wow, Sadistic Mika Band, Char, Boredoms, Hiroshi Fujiwara, Mute Beat, Toshinobu Kubota, Tokyo Ska Paradaise Orchestra, Hi-Standard, Eikichi Yazawa, Seiji Ozawa, Akira Jimbo, Denki Groove, Thee Michelle Gun Elephant, Kako Takashi, The Stalin, Lisa Ono, The Street Sliders, Buffalo Daughter, United Future Organization, Anzen Chitai, Cornelius, Loudness, Kyu Sakamoto, Dj Krush, Godiego, Fishmans, Zeebra, Keiko Matsui. [[User:122.49.157.149|122.49.157.149]] 10:55, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

:Firstly, I think you are missing the point of the statement at hand. The article just says they are among the musicians that have gained success, not that they are "one of the few" or that it is uncommon. This is relevant, as internationally successful artists (especially in [[hard rock]] and [[Metal music|metal]]) are uncommon. This is why bands like [[Rammstein]] are so widely known for not only being talented, but for being a foreign band.

:Secondly, many of the artists you list above are '''not''' mainstream successes, they are merely famous in their niche followings. If one were to ask most punk rock fans who [[The Stalin]] are, many would not have the first clue. Those are are extremely into Japanese hardcore though, they would know immediately. They are a niche success. Others listed are just small artists. You cannot base international recognition solely on a small singular factor such as selling records in foreign countries and having done a few small non-domestic shows. --[[User:Notjake13|Jacob]] <sup>''[[User talk:Notjake13|Talk]]''</sup> 15:13, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I suggest you research some of those musicians, because what you wrote is nonsense! The only thing Dir en grey has achieved, is a few non-domestic shows, and a few non-domestic album releases. They are not internationally influential like many other Japanese musicians. Internationally successful artists are not uncommon, and Japan has its fair share of world famous musicians. Yoji Biomehanika has achieved more international success than Dir en grey, why isn't he a "notable" Japanese musician? [[User:122.49.157.149|122.49.157.149]] 16:02, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

:Why don't you take initiative and make mention of that on Wikipedia. This is not a page for making complaints about other artists. You fail to mention the true influentials too, like Tomoyasu Hotei and Yoko Kanno. Please take your arguments to other pages if they pertain to other topics. --[[User:Notjake13|Jacob]] <sup>''[[User talk:Notjake13|Talk]]''</sup> 16:11, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Cyrus XIII said "surely you can present sufficient sources for your allegations" and you said "definition on world wide success varies"

I provided a small list of Japanese musicians with international success (as previously stated, there are many more) most of their biographies will detail their success.

Many of them are included in HMV's list of the top 100 Japanese musicians. http://www.hmv.co.jp/news/newsDetail.asp?newsnum=311040091

Please explain, why being internationally respected, pioneering, influential, and so on, is only a niche success?

Now explain, why Dir en grey has "notable" success, and is "among" the Japanese musicians with notable success.

Since their record label stole money to fund European and US operations, the article should be updated to include that information. [[User:122.49.157.149|122.49.157.149]] 17:09, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

{{tl|editprotected}}

Request this information, and source be added to the article.

On September 14 2007, the president of their record label was arrested for defrauding an advertising agency in 2001 of almost US$3 million, by making it look like the agency had recieved orders to produce music videos for bands signed to the label.

Source: http://www.japantoday.com/jp/news/418315

The source evidently mentions Dir en grey, and comes from one of Japan biggest news companies. [[User:122.49.149.115|122.49.149.115]] 07:17, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

:'''Note for administrator:''' the above "editprotected" request does not have consensus and appears to be related to the edit-warring that caused this page to be protected. --[[User:Parsifal|Parsifal]] [[User talk:Parsifal|<sub>Hello</sub>]] 10:17, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

This information is relevant to the article, and has a reliable source. It is kept sort and to the point. [[User:219.90.180.76|219.90.180.76]] 14:16, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

:{{not done}} for now. Please replace the editprotected template once there is a consensus in support. ---[[User:J.smith|J.S]] <small>([[User_talk:J.smith|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/J.smith|C]]/[[WP:WRE|WRE]])</small> 18:22, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

== Pictures and Videos ==

Kaoru and Shinya don't have pictures but the other three members do.
I don't have any but maybe someone should put one up...

Also other artists have a 'Video' section in their singles, saying what the videos show... does anyone else think they would be a good idea?[[User:Im-All-Ears|Im-All-Ears]] 13:14, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

:So far, I couldn't find any decent, free images of those two members (I do a Flickr search for potential Wikipedia material every few weeks) and apparently the current climate regarding copyrighted (= [[WP:FU|fair use]]) images on Wikipedia does not favor the use of such media to illustrate articles on individual celebrities.

:I'm not sure about music video summaries as they could easily drift off into interpretation (= [[WP:OR|original research]]). If any were to be added, I'd put them into the articles about the music video collections (as a track listing replacement), rather than adding a small section into each single-related article. - [[User:Cyrus XIII|Cyrus XIII]] 02:20, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

== Unencyclopedic content/original research/news release/misinterpreted citations ==

This article needs cleaning up, to meet the Wikipedia guidelines and standards.

The sections; "2007: The Marrow of a Bone" and "Style and subject matter" need attention.

A list of sentences that need removal, or rewording; in order of appearance.

:As of 2007, they have released six full-length records and are among the Japanese musicians who have enjoyed notable success in Europe and North America.

:While the group's lineup has remained consistent since its inception, numerous stylistic changes have made its music's genre difficult to determine (though it is generally considered to be a form of rock music)

::They first attracted mainstream attention in 1998

::would later become the first of several live concerts to be released on VHS and DVD.

::tours in support for the record would last well into 2004.

::Becoming more involved with the international music scene,

::and Internet file-sharing only.

::As with numerous other Japanese bands

::While there has been speculation among fans, the artists' full names are not a matter of public knowledge.

This is an encyclopedia, and nothing else. <span class="autosigned">—The preceding comment signed as by [[User:122.49.135.245|122.49.135.245]] ([[User talk:122.49.135.245|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/122.49.135.245|contribs]]) was actually added by [[User:Jun kaneko|Jun kaneko]] ([[User talk:Jun kaneko|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Jun kaneko|contribs]]) - </span> 00:16, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

:{{user|Jun kaneko}}, after carefully weighing [[WP:AGF]] against your previous track record,[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RRArchive55#User:219.90.223.197_reported_by_User:Cyrus_XIII_.28Result:_24_hrs.29] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RRArchive55#User:219.90.148.152_reported_by_User:Kaypoh_.28Result:_page_protected.29] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RRArchive56#User:219.90.146.98_reported_by_User:Cyrus_XIII_.28Result:semi-protected.29] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RRArchive57#User:122.49.175.210_reported_by_User:Cyrus_XIII_.28Result:_36_hours_to_Jun_kakeko.2C_24_hours_to_IP_.29] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:Jun_kaneko] I have to conclude that I'm not even going to consider any of this crap. - [[User:Cyrus XIII|Cyrus XIII]] 02:06, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I have no idea of what you wrote Cyrus XIII, but I'm taking it as an insult, and assuming bad faith on your part. According to the Wikipedia guidelines; this is not "crap" and needs to be corrected. Edit: Please read the following policy [[Wikipedia:Civility]]. This is a friendly warning, as you may of been unaware of this. {{UserActual|122.49.135.245|Jun kaneko}} 02:42, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Cyrus XIII, please read the following policy, [[WP:ICA]]. I do not appreciate your behaviour. {{UserActual|122.49.135.245|Jun kaneko}} 03:04, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

== Article cleanup ==

I addressed some minor problems myself, but a couple of issues still remain.

'<s>''Unencyclopedic:''' As of 2007, they have released six full-length records.</s>

'''Unencyclopedic and misinterpreted citations:''' are among the Japanese musicians who have enjoyed notable success in Europe and North America.

'<s>''Original research:''' While the group's lineup has remained consistent since its inception, numerous stylistic changes have made its music's genre difficult to determine (though it is generally considered to be a form of rock music).</s>

'''Original research, which had no link to a reference:''' According to guitarist Kaoru, the name "Dir en grey" was chosen because it "sounded right," and is comprised of words from several languages, so that people would not be able to attach a specific meaning to it other than that the band's name itself.

'''Reworded:''' One of the shows in support for the album...

'''Original research:''' Becoming more involved with the international music scene

'''Removed the statement:''' internet [[file-sharing]] only.

'''Removed irrelevance:''' along with bands such as [[Megadeth]], [[Slayer]] and [[Children of Bodom]].

The section "2007: The Marrow of a Bone" needs attention, because it is becoming a section devoted to news release. And the section "Style and subject matter" needs much attention, as it contains too much original research, someone with more knowledge on the subject please reword it, or find references to add to it. [[User:Saguy1982|Saguy1982]] 21:19, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

:Thanks for summarizing your concerns. I replied to your first edit at the AN/I post, and will include a note here as well.

:I strongly suggest that you review the Wikipedia policies [[WP:Verifiable]] and [[WP:Original research]]. In this diff of your edit to [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dir_en_grey&diff=next&oldid=169086907 Dir en gray], you used this edit summary:

::''(Minor article fixes. Original research and nencyclopedic content removed. Two sections still need work. Note on talk page)''

:However, your edit removed three completely solid reliable sources that support the content of the text you removed. For example you removed this text from the section about their tour success: "'''' Again, all shows sold out within days.''", and you removed the Wired magazine news article footnote that clearly stated in detail how fast the shows sold out.

:You removed this phrase from the intro of the article:

::"''As of 2007, they have released six full-length records.''"

:In your comment above, you describe that as "''Unencyclopedic''. That statement was directly supported by two reliable source references that you also removed, which is inappropriate. And what exactly is unencyclopedic about stating how many albums they've released?

:If you think the references do not support what the text shows, then quote the reference on the talk page and show the editors there how you see the reference being misinterpreted. I've read those references myself and they seem correct. There is no reason to remove them. If you want to debate about that, do so on the talk page; but please do not remove sources without discussion.

:Regarding some of your other notes above:

:'''''Unencyclopedic and misinterpreted citations:''' are among the Japanese musicians who have enjoyed notable success in Europe and North America.'' - Please quote the text of the citation you believe is misinterpreted, and tell us what your interpretation is, so we can form consensus about how to paraphrase the source for the article.

The reference mentions nothing of the sort. [[User:Saguy1982|Saguy1982]] 22:54, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

:'''''Removed irrelevance:''' along with bands such as [[Megadeth]], [[Slayer]] and [[Children of Bodom]].'' - I don't see this as irrelevant. It's information about the context of their performance and the other bands that they work with. And it is specifically supported by the references. As a subjective content decision regarding reliably sourced information, this requires consensus to remove it. Please do not revert again, and instead, discuss it further here, to see if other editors agree with you about removing it.

This is an article about the band Dir en grey, it is not about who performed at the particular performance. It has no relevance to this article. [[User:Saguy1982|Saguy1982]] 22:54, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

:'''''Original research, which had no link to a reference:''' According to guitarist Kaoru, the name "Dir en grey" was chosen because it "sounded right," and is comprised of words from several languages, so that people would not be able to attach a specific meaning to it other than that the band's name itself.'' - this is specifically covered in the blistering.com intgerview with Dir en grey. If there is a problem with the reference, fix it, don't remove the text.

The reference linked to that statement was not present. It was a date, and a link to a Fuse TV Wiki article. [[User:Saguy1982|Saguy1982]] 22:54, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

The other information in the lead paragraph was written in the first reference, which was incorrectly placed. It has been restored. [[User:Saguy1982|Saguy1982]] 22:54, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

:I suggest you read and follow [[WP:CONSENSUS]] and [[Wikipedia:Bold, revert, discuss]]. --[[User:Parsifal|Parsifal]] [[User talk:Parsifal|<sub>Hello</sub>]] 22:43, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I made an edit, and mentioned in the summary that there are notes on the talk page. There is nothing wrong with that Parsifal.

My edits have some merit, and some were wrong (and have been corrected) mostly they are minor insignificant details, so its nothing to get upset about, when the main goal is to improve the article.

The main problems left, are the "2007" section is becoming a news release, and needs attention by someone with more knowledge on the subject. And the "Style and subject matter" which contains too much original research, and either needs reworking, or references. Update: I also thank you Parsifal, for reworking the mistakes, but leaving edits which had merit. [[User:Saguy1982|Saguy1982]] 22:59, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

:I do not consense your repeated removal of the Grammy association reference, and regarding the interview reference that you say was not present, I already told you the link was incorrect, and I told you which one is the correct one. I suggested that you fix the text and reference rather than removing them. I also suggested that you read several policies and guidelines about how to form consensus. You have not shown that you've done so.

:Your interthreading of your comments between mine has confused the conversation. Please read [[WP:TALK]] and learn how to format conversations on talk pages. Thanks. --[[User:Parsifal|Parsifal]] [[User talk:Parsifal|<sub>Hello</sub>]] 23:46, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

::<small>[I've added indentation colons to the following to clarify the threads; the original post by [[User:Saguy1982|Saguy1982]] was not indented and merged into the subsequent post by [[User:Cyrus XIII|Cyrus XIII]] --[[User:Parsifal|Parsifal]] [[User talk:Parsifal|<sub>Hello</sub>]] 09:04, 5 November 2007 (UTC)]</small>

::If the grammy reference has relevance to any sentence, then re-add it to the sentence it has relevance to. The other reference was re-added, and placed correctly at the sentence for which it is a citation. If there is a reference for the meaning of "Dir en grey", please re-add that information with its verifiable source. These changes are not significant as the article is well written, but they helped improve the article to be more encyclopedic. That is after-all what the Wikipedia is, and nothing else. [[User:Saguy1982|Saguy1982]] 07:46, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

:::Look - you removed the Grammy reference, so why are you asking me to re-add it? You say "IF" it "has relevance to any sentence" to re-add it... When you removed it, did you even bother to read it? I did, and I see the relevance. Now, since you removed it please restore it to the appropriate place. If you don't think it's a valid source to support the content, then please explain your objection. Why should I go and dig through it to prove to you what it says, when it was already properly placed in the article before you deleted it?

:::Regarding your note about the reference for the meaning of the band name, you can read the blister.com article as well as I can, so please don't ask me to do you work for you. You removed references and messed up the article. if you want to edit Wikipedia, that involves careful work of reviewing the references and making sure they go with the proper text. Just glancing at them and issuing complaints or adding tags is not helpful. If you want to make the article better, then read the references and place them in the article where the content correctly applies. If you are not interested in doing that kind of work, then stop complaining and stop removing content from articles. Thanks. --[[User:Parsifal|Parsifal]] [[User talk:Parsifal|<sub>Hello</sub>]] 08:53, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

::::The grammy reference had no relevance to the sentence it was added to, in fact I had to move the other reference to place it where it should be. The reference for the meaning of the bands name was not the blitzring interview, and that reference was not added to that sentence as a citation when it should of been. If you are aware of small problems with the article, and know how to fix them, then you should fix them before they become issues. Instead of being rude to other people who are trying to improve the article. [[User:Saguy1982|Saguy1982]] 09:27, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

:::::If you want to improve the article, then show us. Here is the text from the interview you said does not include the meaning of the band's name:

::::::''Blistering: When researching your band's name we found a site that said Dir En Grey loosely translates to "into the grey." Is that the meaning? And if so, why did you choose this name? ''

::::::''Kaoru: We have never thought of the meaning of our band name as being “inside the grey.” At the time we chose the band name, it had some meaning but right now it doesn’t express the band anymore, so it has come to not mean anything specific. We chose the band name because it sounded right, and it also reflects an image that probably doesn’t exist elsewhere.''

:::::So, what is your intention here? You've come into this article like a bull in a china shop with all sorts of strong opinions, removing references and making claims that there are problems. If you think there are problems, by all means fix them. Other editors don't owe it to you to do you work for you. If you want to make the article better, please do. But demanding that others make changes, when you are not willing to do the research, is not appropriate. Now, I've shown you the content of the reference as it applies to the name of the band. Please make the improvements that you have said are so important to you.

:::::With the grammy reference, what problem did you see with that? What text did you think was not supported by that reference? I know what the article states, and I know what it was supporting in the article. Do you? If not, shortly, I assume Cyrus will re-add that reference. But if he doesn't, eventually I will. It would be better for you to do it, to show us that you actually want to collaborate and not edit-war. So here is your chance to show good faith. --[[User:Parsifal|Parsifal]] [[User talk:Parsifal|<sub>Hello</sub>]] 09:44, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

::::::I never said that, in fact you are refusing to listen to what I have said. Take a look at the edit history Parsifal. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dir_en_grey&diff=169234314&oldid=169086907 Where is the blistering reference for that sentence? Show it to me, because when I look at that, I see a unverifiable reference for Fuse TV. Looking at the Grammy reference, tell me where the citation is for this sentence. "As of 2007, they have released six [[Album|full-length records]] and are among the Japanese musicians who have enjoyed notable success in [[Europe]] and [[North America]]." Tell everyone what it is referencing Parsifal, because that is the line it was connected to. What is the citation Parsifal? You stated you know little about this topic, but you seem to have in-depth knowledge of the article, and its references. Please be more civil with your discussions and look at the history log. Furthermore, please point out, where I said that the blistering interview does not include that information, please tell me, because I'm very interested in knowing how come I can't remember. [[User:Saguy1982|Saguy1982]] 19:50, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

:::::::I've not said anything about the Fuse reference. What I said is, if you care about improving the article rather than simply disrupting it, you can fix the material instead of removing it by adding the reference from blistering.com that I quoted for you above. Of course, I am capable of making that correction myself, but I am offering this to you, as a chance for you to show that you want to collaborate rather than fight.

:::::::So, please, restore the paragraph about the meaning of the band's name - and make improvements if you think they are needed - and use the blistering.com interview quote I quoted above as the footnote. That way, we can have a cleanly referenced paragraph about the meaning of the band's name, and at the same time, you can improve our working relationship, by showing that your intention is not to disrupt and antagonize and that you intend to collaborate in a way that respects the work of others.

:::::::Regarding the sentence you asked about: ''"As of 2007, they have released six [[Album|full-length records]] and are among the Japanese musicians who have enjoyed notable success in [[Europe]] and [[North America]]." '' -- the six album releases don't need a reference because they are listed in the related Discography article that is linked from the Discography section in this article, and each album already has entire separate Wikipedia articles as well with detailed information. The success in Europe and America is discussed in the both the Grammy article and the All Music Guide article. The Grammy report title is ''Visual kei artists from Japan invade Germany and set sights on America'' and it's full of descriptions of sold-out shows and big tours, by this band and other Japanese bands, just as the sentence states. The All Music Guide states that "''They toured Europe and sold out shows everywhere they went based on nothing more than word of mouth. When they played the United States in March 2006... the band sold out large venues in Los Angeles and New York as well."''

:::::::What's not clear here is, why did you need me to explain this to you? How were you able to read those references and not notice that they are reporting that this band is successful and notable, in both Europe and the USA? The support of these reliable references is clear and unambiguous, so in what way did you see them as a problem? Please show us your friendly collaborative spirit, and explain what problem you found when you read the sources?

:::::::If you want to collaborate and improve Wikipedia articles, please do. If that's not what you want, then what is your purpose here? --[[User:Parsifal|Parsifal]] [[User talk:Parsifal|<sub>Hello</sub>]] 20:55, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

::::::::No Parsifal. That lead paragraph line is unencyclopedic, and it is a rather inane statement. They toured parts of Europe and the United States, so what! Details of tours are already mentioned in the history section. You are the one that noticed the blistering interview had a citation for the meaning of the bands name. It is you who should re-add that information with the correct reference, as you are the person who discovered it. It has nothing to do with me, or my good faith. The original statement was removed because it sounded like original research and the reference link was invalid. Your attitude is most unwelcome Parsifal. You are behaving like a child. [[User:Saguy1982|Saguy1982]] 21:34, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

:::::::::The sections "2007" and "subject and style" still need attention, maybe you or Cyrus XIII could fix them, since I have no knowledge on this band, and how to proceed on editing those sections. The "2007" section is becoming an area for new release, and the other section either needs reworking or citations, which you seem to be good at providing. My previous edits have merits, and I corrected a mistake. A mistake that was justified because the reference was in the wrong spot. A problem you knew existed but never fixed. Maybe you should try to improve the article Parsifal, instead of twisting events to curse other editors, particularly myself. You seem to have another reason for posting, other than to improve this article. It is quite childish. [[User:Saguy1982|Saguy1982]] 21:52, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Parsifal already pointed out several problems with the recent changes, I'd like to add a few thoughts:

The question whether the group's international success should be mentioned in the lead, in the context of their nationality has already come up only recently, resulting in an edit war and temporary article protection, but also a consensus to be keep it. Back then, editor {{user|Notjake13}} compared Dir en grey with [[:Rammstein]], as neither German nor Japanese musical acts who have archived international mainstream success are exactly a dime a dozen. The sources the respective line in the lead was presented with specifically pointed out this novelity.[http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:ehjw7iang75r~T1] [http://www.grammylive.com/Latin/News/Default.aspx?newsID=2278]

On a side note, for the sake of context, the IP based editor who felt so strongly about the alleged inappropriateness of the line in question, identified himself as {{user|Jun kaneko}} in the aftermath of the earlier dispute/edit war/article lock, a person Saguy1982 now denies to be.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=162881473] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=169229750]

Regarding the Fuse TV source: If we were to expect all references used on Wikipedia to be readily available on the web, citing non-digital media, such as books would become quite impossible. For what it counts, the respective interview is easy enough to find on YouTube and while we do not accept this venue itself as a reliable source (for the obvious reason, that it is user-edited), citing the Fuse TV feature directly is entirely appropriate.

That all being said, I have yet to see a compelling rationale for any of the changes made since the article's [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dir_en_grey&diff=169252164&oldid=168368737 October 31 revision]. - [[User:Cyrus XIII|Cyrus XIII]] 00:09, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

:Cyrus, thanks for your comments, I concur with all of them. In addition, FYI, the blistering.com interview has a text paragraph about the origin and meaning of the bands name too. --[[User:Parsifal|Parsifal]] [[User talk:Parsifal|<sub>Hello</sub>]] 00:13, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

That might be your opinion Cyrus XIII, but that doesn't necessarily mean its true. In regards to the lead paragraph statement, and Fuse TV. I don't see any "novelty" about the band being Japanese. The same applies to German musicians. In fact, two of my favorite bands are German and Japanese. They are Enigma and the Flower Traveling Band. According to Amazon UK, the Flower Traveling Band remains quite popular. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Anywhere-Flower-Travellin-Band/dp/B000MQ50DY/ref=pd_sbs_b_shvl_img_3/203-4420607-7101513 I can think of many other German and Japanese bands with success outside their markets, but that is not the point. It is unencyclopedic, and this is an encyclopedia. And I don't agree that a reference that everyone can't verify should be added, but it appears Parsifal has an interview source for that information, so it no longer matters. Thanks [[User:Saguy1982|Saguy1982]] 08:12, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

:Um, that release is clearly marked as an import, meaning that it is not even regularly stocked by Amazon.co.uk and also has no review by the Amazon staff - how is this supposed to assert international success? In the Amazon branches around the globe, you will find imported items for hundreds of artists who never had any actual domestic releases in the respective markets. If it becomes commonplace, that Japanese bands release several of their albums across three continents, along with singles, home video releases, sold out concert tours and appearances at major festivals, than the phrasing in question should probably be revised. Until then, it remains relevant and as Parsifal pointed out above, the available references sufficiently support it. - [[User:Cyrus XIII|Cyrus XIII]] 21:47, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

::Cyrus XIII, that is a rather asinine form of logic. And being a fan of world music, I know there are in-fact lots of Japanese musicians with the above "achievements" if you can call it that. I believe most of this groups releases would be imports as well. As are many CDs in record stores in almost every nation. Update: And no, the reference doesn't really support it, nor is it acceptable for the Wikipedia. The Flower Travellin' band also has non-Japanese releases of their albums, and toured the US and Europe during their active years. So what! [[User:Saguy1982|Saguy1982]] 22:09, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

:::So off you go, adding those interesting facts to the [[:Flower Travellin' Band]] article. Regarding this discussion, well, given that you have taken to provide your fellow editors with [[WP:NPA|personal attacks]], rather than compelling arguments, you have obviously not generated any support for your proposed changes to this article's previous revision. Hence it will now be reverted to its October 31 version, with minor adjustments, such as reusing the Blistering reference for the naming passage (in addition to the Fuse TV source) and a little streamlining of the 2007 section. And by the way, if you seriously want people to believe that you are ''not'' {{user|Jun kaneko}}, drop this annoying habit of constantly revising earlier talk page comments. It might get you under suspicion of foul play, I'm sure you don't want that. - [[User:Cyrus XIII|Cyrus XIII]] 23:04, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

There is nothing really wrong with the article, apart from those two small sections that I hope someone will fix. This is becoming a long and tiresome matter, over such a simple thing. And I don't really see a need for my input any further. Please try to keep this article encyclopedic. Good luck [[User:Saguy1982|Saguy1982]] 22:47, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

== International recognition section ==

I don't think we need a separated section for "International recognition"...it could be merged to the "History" section, I believe.[[User:Victao lopes|Victao lopes]] ([[User talk:Victao lopes|talk]]) 21:33, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

:There's been a high degree of disagreement on including this in the introductory paragraph in the article, and as it is not a specific event, it's hard to place it in the history section. The fact that they are popular overseas isn't really a time-line event. --[[User:Notjake13|Jacob]] <sup>''[[User talk:Notjake13|Talk]]''</sup> 22:31, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

::Oh, I understand...but, is this section really important? I mean...there are so many J-bands enjoying overseas popularity, but their articles don't have these statements. Will it really generate a discussion if we decide just to briefly mention it in the introductory paragraph?[[User:Victao lopes|Victao lopes]] ([[User talk:Victao lopes|talk]]) 23:49, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

:::Well, the degree of mainstream success, outside of the typical Japanese culture is what is notable. There aren't many Japanese bands that can break free of their cult status. Having this in the introductory paragraph caused issues with some other users in the past, and having it as a small paragraph at the end seems to have pleased most users involved with the article, if you don't feel it necessary, maybe other users will agree with you. We should wait for other editors' input here. --[[User:Notjake13|Jacob]] <sup>''[[User talk:Notjake13|Talk]]''</sup> 06:51, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

::::OK.[[User:Victao lopes|Victao lopes]] ([[User talk:Victao lopes|talk]]) 18:51, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

With Victao lopes' concerns in mind, I've merged said section into the lead and toned down the "they made it big somewhere else too!" aspect of it. The ''Billboard'' quote actually turned out to make a fairly decent finish for the introduction. – [[User:Cyrus XIII|Cyrus XIII]] <sup>([[User talk:Cyrus XIII|talk]])</sup> 23:19, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

== Fanclub Information?? ==

I'm not sure if this would be relevant to what is on Wikipedia under Dir en grey, but what about a section for A-Knot? I do realise that, as a fanclub, it is not the actual band, nor does wikipedia approve of promotion of organizations, but I think a small secion on A-Knot would be nice. Let the people know that there is a fanclub for those who live in Japan, not to mention the support of the fanclub for the band. Just an idea? [[User:VulGarDen|Vul~Gar~Den]] ([[User talk:VulGarDen|talk]]) 00:39, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

:Maybe you could just put the link in the "External links" section. But I strongly recommend you to wait for other editors' opinions.[[User:Victao lopes|Victao lopes]] ([[User talk:Victao lopes|talk]]) 02:52, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

:It's been discussed before, and it's difficult to find relevancy for it. The only thing that is really important is the fan club-only releases, and those are already mentioned in the discography/videography sections. A lot of information about A Knot is also not sourced, and is only based on original research. A link the in the external links may be useful, but it will only direct to another portion of the Official site, which is already linked. --[[User:Notjake13|Jacob]] <sup>''[[User talk:Notjake13|Talk]]''</sup> 12:01, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

::Hm, okay. I was just wondering because I was getting questions about it myself. Thank you for answering my question. Since the Official Site is already linked, I won't worry about it. Thank you again! [[User:VulGarDen|Vul~Gar~Den]] ([[User talk:VulGarDen|talk]]) 19:04, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

:::Not a problem, thank you for using the talk page and being generally considerate. This article often overflows with controversy. --[[User:Notjake13|Jacob]] <sup>''[[User talk:Notjake13|Talk]]''</sup> 20:57, 10 December 2007 (UTC)


==Notable==

Notable - as an english word, means "Worthy of note or notice; remarkable." So if Dir en Grey has had remarkable sucess in the United States, that would mean a pretty big success. I would call the words "notable success" to be weasel words in this case - neither notable or success have clear definitions in the context of the article. What is really meant is "some success that can be documented" but it comes out sounding like they are huge in the US. I think it would be more appropriate to say they have a dedicated but small fanbase, or have found a nitch market, and are continuing to grow which would be more accurate. [[User:Denaar|Denaar]] ([[User talk:Denaar|talk]]) 01:40, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
:In my point of view, "notable success" here means "quite a big success considering that they sing in Japanese and that they are used to having succes only in Japan", and not "they are on the Billboard Top 10". Maybe this idea is not so explicit, though...[[User:Victor Lopes|Victor Lopes]] ([[User talk:Victor Lopes|talk]]) 01:57, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
::Exactly, "notable" in the simple sense of the (American, European) press taking note, similar to the way we are benchmarking [[WP:N|notability]] on Wikipedia. Notable success is also a lot easier to assert and quantify than "minor" or "major" success were in the case of musicians the scale may range from well received club tours to stadium-shaking events. – [[User:Cyrus XIII|Cyrus XIII]] <sup>([[User talk:Cyrus XIII|talk]])</sup> 16:04, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
:::We really need to remove that they are "sucessful" - you can't define "sucess." Notable sucess, in English, implies something that everyone is taking note of - something that is popular. It isn't something that can be documented for or against. It is an opinion - that is why it does not belong in a wikipedia article. It destroys the NPOV of the article and makes them seem bigger than they are. Figure out a different or better wording - but it needs to be changed into something more NPOV. [[User:Denaar|Denaar]] ([[User talk:Denaar|talk]]) 02:59, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
::::The disagreement here is all in the word "notable". Now, to hopefully be the voice of reason; I see where both of you are placing your arguments. On Denaar's side, the word notable often has a different connotation in casual, American English speaking. It usually implies something is really important, and if one is not involved in underground music often (I'm going out on a limb to assume Denaar listens more to mainstream rock than the most underground stuff like [[jazzcore]] and [[goregrind]]) then it would be assumed that "notable" means on par with "mainstream" or "popular", just by common use. On Cyrus's side, the word "notable" is used in the literal translation (sorry, it's not Wikipedia jargon, it is just a very straightforward breakdown of the word, and that's how Wikipedia uses it as well), as in the artist is worthy of being noted. Now, in this case, their success is ''noted'' in the lead paragraph, hence it cannot be argued that the success is ''notable''. On the issue of success, they have achieved mainstream success by turning profit with records and charting on the [[United States]] [[Billboard charts]]. That is by all means an indicator of at least the smallest degree of success. I think the article is fine as it stands, however if true synonymic words are put in place to make the argument more satisfying to American English speakers, and encyclopedic, literal editors, I would say it is worth a trial, but should be discussed '''before''' implementation occurs. "Major" or "minor" are not on par with "notable", as "major" and "minor" are scaling adjectives, and those should generally be avoided without extremely reliable citation. I hope this can resolve some of the dispute. Thanks! --[[User:Notjake13|Jacob]] <sup>''[[User talk:Notjake13|Talk]]''</sup> 04:11, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
:::::A friend of mine suggested "has begun to see cross over success" as a wording choice. I think that better states what was originally intended by the sentence - that while they are not mainstream they have been more successful than the media (specifically billboard) would have expected. Frankly they have had such a die-hard fanbase for so long I'm not sure why any one would be surprised with what they have done. Notable as a word means "worthy of notice" - but by whom? Therein lies the issue, something being notable is an opinion. Wikipedia specifically defines notability as being noted by published sources, but I could call a red button on a shirt rather notable and be correct. PS - Your assertion of my musical tastes was incorrect, but I admit I do not listen to music specifically for the purpose of sounding pretentious. [[User:Denaar|Denaar]] ([[User talk:Denaar|talk]]) 03:19, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

== Gothic/death metal influence? ==

I thought I'd bring this up with a source I've found: [http://www.mtv.com/music/artist/dir_en_grey/artist.jhtml ]. Not sure if it can be used but it would be interesting to cover their gothic and death metal influences to their music. I do not wish to be pulled into the discussion so I'll let you people decide if you want to use it and or continue searching for sources on this. [[User:FireCrystal|FireCrystal]] ([[User talk:FireCrystal|talk]]) 21:51, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

:I think this is typical of MTV, labeling anything less cheery than bubblegum-pop to be "gothic-" or "death-" or "black-" because they simply don't cater to an audience that cares. I'm hard-pressed to find much in Dir en grey's music that qualifies as "gothic", and there really are no other reputable sources which reinforce the idea. I'd say it's just apathy on MTV's end. --[[User:Notjake13|Jacob]] <sup>''[[User talk:Notjake13|Talk]]''</sup> 21:56, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

== Gauze = hardcore punk? ==

Someone changed the line in the style and subject matter section from "Some tracks of their debut album Gauze also demonstrated a distinct pop appeal..." to "Some tracks of their debut album Gauze also demonstrated a distinct hardcore punk appeal...".

I'm not sure if I should change that back to 'pop'. [[User:XShurikenx|XShurikenx]] ([[User talk:XShurikenx|talk]]) 20:24, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

:I agree with the original sentence and changed it back [[User:Denaar|Denaar]] ([[User talk:Denaar|talk]]) 17:47, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

==Flamboyant==

We'll ignore the fact that Withering to Death was listed by a Japanese magazine as one of the top 12 Visual Kei albums of all time [http://www.bounce.com/article/article.php/3419/2/] because Dir en Grey's is still concept oriented, and Visual bands are focused on concept, but I agree they have toned down their attire over time. I removed the term "flamboyant" to a more neutral term because flamboyant is slang for "gay" in the US. Please look at Urban Dictionary or our own Wikipedia: [[Flamboyant_(disambiguation)]]: Flamboyant is a potentially pejorative adjective for LGBT people, or those perceived to be, whose behavior is reflected in a stereotypical "flamboyancy". [[Flamboyant]] This article is about the Gothic architecture style. For human trait of flamboyancy, see effeminacy. [[User:Denaar|Denaar]] ([[User talk:Denaar|talk]]) 16:45, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

== Requested move (#1) ==
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
:''The following discussion is an archived discussion of a [[WP:RM|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. ''

The result of the move request was: '''page moved'''. [[User:Anthony Appleyard|Anthony Appleyard]] ([[User talk:Anthony Appleyard|talk]]) 05:07, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

----

[[:Dir en grey]] → [[Dir En Grey]] — Per [[WP:MOSTM]], which states that trademarks should be capitalized, as with proper names, and to "follow standard English text formatting and capitalization rules even if the trademark owner considers nonstandard formatting 'official'" <span style="border: 1px solid #c40000; background-color: #ffffff; padding: 1px; font-size: 10px;"> [[User:Sorafune|<span style="background: white none repeat scroll 0% 0%; color: #c40000;">Sorafune</span>]] [[User talk:Sorafune|<span style="background-color: #c40000; color: #ffffff; text-decoration: none; padding: 0px 2px 0px 2px;">+1</span>]]</span> 21:26, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
*'''Support''' For reasons given by proposer. [[User:Skinsmoke|Skinsmoke]] ([[User talk:Skinsmoke|talk]]) 23:42, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
*'''Support''' - [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Delete]] the redirect and move. Note: The redirect has a [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dir_En_Grey&action=historysubmit&diff=185406160&oldid=183032527 history]. &ndash; [[User:Allen4names|allen]]四[[User talk:Allen4names|names]] 01:12, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
*Your argument is misleading because the band does not use "Dir en grey" as a typeset on any of their releases, in their promotional materials, etc etc. Dir en grey was chosen to follow the rule that says that the first letter in article titles should be capitalized, but all following words should not be capitalized from [[WP:Title]], Article title format section. If the words should be capitalized because a band name is a proper nown, then the title should be Dir en Grey. The word "en" is French for "in" or "as" and shouldn't be capitalized, since you wouldn't capitalize "in" or "as" in English. [[User:Denaar|Denaar]] ([[User talk:Denaar|talk]]) 02:16, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
:*Yes, the words ''should'' be capitalized because a band name ''is'' a proper noun. Otherwise, we'd have "The beatles", "30 seconds to mars", and "Do as infinity". Considering the "en", I did not find any reliable source that says that the band name is French. <span style="border: 1px solid #c40000; background-color: #ffffff; padding: 1px; font-size: 10px;"> [[User:Sorafune|<span style="background: white none repeat scroll 0% 0%; color: #c40000;">Sorafune</span>]] [[User talk:Sorafune|<span style="background-color: #c40000; color: #ffffff; text-decoration: none; padding: 0px 2px 0px 2px;">+1</span>]]</span> 02:35, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
::*The source on Japanese wikipedia is a TV show performance in 1998 on the show Nikkan Hit. [[User:Denaar|Denaar]] ([[User talk:Denaar|talk]]) 03:54, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
:::*A source would have to be something that I could [[WP:V|verify]], and I have no idea how to find a 1998 episode of Nikkan Hit, even if I tried resorting to piracy means. Isn't there an online source you could find? <span style="border: 1px solid #c40000; background-color: #ffffff; padding: 1px; font-size: 10px;"> [[User:Sorafune|<span style="background: white none repeat scroll 0% 0%; color: #c40000;">Sorafune</span>]] [[User talk:Sorafune|<span style="background-color: #c40000; color: #ffffff; text-decoration: none; padding: 0px 2px 0px 2px;">+1</span>]]</span> 16:23, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
::::*Don't limit yourself. If there is a source that can be referenced via inter-library loan by all means use it. – [[User:Allen4names|allen]]四[[User talk:Allen4names|names]] 16:32, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::*...What library has that episode then? <span style="border: 1px solid #c40000; background-color: #ffffff; padding: 1px; font-size: 10px;"> [[User:Sorafune|<span style="background: white none repeat scroll 0% 0%; color: #c40000;">Sorafune</span>]] [[User talk:Sorafune|<span style="background-color: #c40000; color: #ffffff; text-decoration: none; padding: 0px 2px 0px 2px;">+1</span>]]</span> 16:37, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
::::::*I was referring to what you (Sorafune) wrote... "Isn't there an online source you could find?" If you limit yourself to the internet you may miss the sources you are looking for, namely the sources that will show how this band's name should be capitalized. That said I do not know of any library that has the episode you are referring to. – [[User:Allen4names|allen]]四[[User talk:Allen4names|names]] 17:17, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a [[WP:RM|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.</div><!-- Template:RM bottom -->

== Requested move (#2) ==
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
:''The following discussion is an archived discussion of a [[WP:RM|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. ''

The result of the move request was: '''nomination withdrawn'''. <span style="border: 1px solid #c40000; background: #fff; padding: 1px; font-size: 10px;">[[User:mx3|<span style="background: white 0% 0%; color: #c40000;">mx3]] [[User talk:mx3|<span style="background: #c40000; color: #fff; text-decoration: none; padding: 0px 2px;">話</span>]]</span> 16:23, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

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[[Dir En Grey]] → {{noredirect|1=Dir en grey}} — Their name is officially written as [[Dir en grey]] everywhere since the very beginning in 1997 and is ''case sensitive''. (The latest years have started to use ''DIR EN GREY'' but we don't know if its an temporate stylizing) Their name is not English and should '''not''' be treated with the "English Standard Text Formatting"-system. The band itself, their management (sun-krad) and record label is refering them as [[Dir en grey]] and have '''NEVER''' used [[Dir En Grey]]. Databases like MusicBrainz is also prissy about English Standard-caseing but they have them typset as [[Dir en grey]] with the argument that "capitalizations that Artist Intent comes first"<ref>http://musicbrainz.org/artist/ab309b83-904f-4e2c-8d11-a0223bba51f9.html</ref> and the artist has intended it to be [[Dir en grey]]. I have plenty of more arguments so just approve this and change it into [[Dir en grey]]. <references /> [[User:Killinstinct|Killinstinct]] ([[User talk:Killinstinct|talk]]) 10:04, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
*'''Strong oppose'''. MusicBrainz has their own rules and different guidelines to follow. But on Wikipedia, we follow [[MOS:TM]], which says to "capitalize trademarks, as with proper names" and to "Follow standard English text formatting and capitalization rules, even if the trademark owner considers nonstandard formatting 'official'." And this is regardless of what language it is in. In fact, most names, like [[The Beatles]], [[Coldplay]], [[B'z]], [[Adidas]], [[Malice Mizer]], [[Clazziquai]], are composed of words that aren't actually English, or any other language, but have to follow English capitalization rules anyway. In the same way that "beatles" isn't a real word, "dir en grey" are not words that pertain to a specific language and are not real words either. I highly advise you to read [[Wikipedia:Official names]]. Oh, also since MusicBrainz is a wiki that anyone can edit, and since they ''do'' follow official capitalizations, I changed their band name there to "DIR EN GREY", which is the only stylization the band seems to use nowadays. <span style="border: 1px solid #c40000; background: #fff; padding: 1px; font-size: 10px;">[[User:mx3|<span style="background: white 0% 0%; color: #c40000;">mx3]] [[User talk:mx3|<span style="background: #c40000; color: #fff; text-decoration: none; padding: 0px 2px;">話</span>]]</span> 15:34, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
::I still '''don't care''' about what you follow, DIR EN GREY should just be an exception then because their name is invalid if it's being written as Dir En Grey. You changed their name yourself into DIR EN GREY at MusicBrainz-database and that only gave me more proof and arguments that the name should be changed into DIR EN GREY. "MusicBrainz is a wiki that anyone can edit" I thought Wikipedia was a wiki that anyone can edit, Wikipedia has never told me that there were rude Grammar-nazis changing every single little change back to the former one because it's not grammar correct. I actually start to think Wikipedia is a rude place! Wikipedia in all other languages don't have this problem, why just the English one? I read [[Wikipedia:Official names]] but that doesn't say anything about this issue. Stop being a bitch and approve the change, what's your problem? I just put another move request into DIR EN GREY then. I'm not giving up, so stop bitching and just approve with me because I am right about this. <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Killinstinct|Killinstinct]] ([[User talk:Killinstinct|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Killinstinct|contribs]]) 16:12, 10 August 2010 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a [[WP:RM|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.</div><!-- Template:RM bottom -->

== Requested move ==
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
:''The following discussion is an archived discussion of a [[WP:RM|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. ''

The result of the move request was: '''Not moved'''. [[User:Jafeluv|Jafeluv]] ([[User talk:Jafeluv|talk]]) 00:21, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

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[[Dir En Grey]] → {{noredirect|1=DIR EN GREY}} — DIR EN GREY is the correct typeset for this wiki. The band itself, their record labels around the world (Japan, Europe, North America) is refering them as DIR EN GREY (in caps) their MySpace and official homepage, their CD and DVD releases, official merchandise is also refering them as DIR EN GREY. It's Artist Intent and should be respected. Stop decline this, I'll just request the move once again and again. I'm not giving up because I'm correct about this. <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Killinstinct|Killinstinct]] ([[User talk:Killinstinct|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Killinstinct|contribs]]) 16:12, 10 August 2010 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->
*Once again, '''strong oppose'''. I'm not declining this, I'm just opposing it. Rationale: [[MOS:TM]], as usual. If you keep making the same move request over and over, chances are you'll get banned. <span style="border: 1px solid #c40000; background: #fff; padding: 1px; font-size: 10px;">[[User:mx3|<span style="background: white 0% 0%; color: #c40000;">mx3]] [[User talk:mx3|<span style="background: #c40000; color: #fff; text-decoration: none; padding: 0px 2px;">話</span>]]</span> 16:29, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
:I'm not going to make the same move request over and over because this one are going to be approved! DIR EN GREY is not a trademark, it's a band name and it's ''case sensitive''. Come with other arguments why this shouldn't be moved into DIR EN GREY expect for that old [[MOS:TM]] you always refering to.[[User:Killinstinct|Killinstinct]] ([[User talk:Killinstinct|talk]]) 17:41, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
::[[MOS:TM]] actually has an example similar to this very move proposal. It gives an example that the band KISS should be written as Kiss, so band names are considered trademarks. <span style="border: 1px solid #c40000; background: #fff; padding: 1px; font-size: 10px;">[[User:mx3|<span style="background: white 0% 0%; color: #c40000;">mx3]] [[User talk:mx3|<span style="background: #c40000; color: #fff; text-decoration: none; padding: 0px 2px;">話</span>]]</span> 19:21, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' It really doesn't matter how the band chose to style themselves. Wikipedia has its own style, which we keep to. ''DIR EN GREY'' would only be appropriate on Wikipedia if each of the letters was a capital letter standing as an abbreviation for another word. They aren't. End of! [[User:Skinsmoke|Skinsmoke]] ([[User talk:Skinsmoke|talk]]) 17:22, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
: It's still not English, and shouldn't be treated with the English Standard text formatting rules.[[User:Killinstinct|Killinstinct]] ([[User talk:Killinstinct|talk]]) 17:41, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
::Similarily, "SHINee" is a band name that isn't English but a move proposal to have [[Shinee]] moved to [[SHINee]] failed because of [[MOS:TM]]. <span style="border: 1px solid #c40000; background: #fff; padding: 1px; font-size: 10px;">[[User:mx3|<span style="background: white 0% 0%; color: #c40000;">mx3]] [[User talk:mx3|<span style="background: #c40000; color: #fff; text-decoration: none; padding: 0px 2px;">話</span>]]</span> 19:21, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' Per [[MOS:TM]], [[WP:ALLCAPS]] and the [[MOS:J|Japanese manual of style]]. [[User:YumeChaser|<font color="Gold">夢</font>]][[User talk:YumeChaser|<font color="orange">追人</font>]]<font color="black"><sup>YumeChaser</sup></font> 01:14, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. I agree with ''YumeChaser'', ''mx3'', ''Skinsmoke'' &asymp;&nbsp;<b style="border:1px solid #736AFF;font-family:georgia;font-variant:small-caps">[[User:Prometheus.pyrphoros|<b style="background-color:#FBB117;color:#7E2217">Prometheus&nbsp;</b>]][[User talk:Prometheus.pyrphoros|&nbsp;«talk»]]</b> 11:59, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''', per YumeChaser. [[User:LtPowers|Powers]] <sup><small><small>[[User talk:LtPowers|T]]</small></small></sup> 13:12, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. As per the comments already put forward above. This is a proper noun, which is capitalized correctly in accordance with the Wikipedia Manual of Style, and so there is no need for a move. --[[User:DAJF|DAJF]] ([[User talk:DAJF|talk]]) 13:24, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' for the reasons made clear in the first move discussion. In fact this proposal may be a candidate for [[WP:SNOW]]. – [[User:Allen4names|allen]]四[[User talk:Allen4names|names]] 18:56, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a [[WP:RM|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.</div><!-- Template:RM bottom -->


== Proper styling of band name ==
== Proper styling of band name ==

I know this has been brought up before, but I cringe every time I see Dir En Grey. I can appreciate sticking to formatting rules, but when it comes to artist/album/song titles, I think they should be stylized as the artist intended. I think you guys have been too anal about this and should just switch over to the official styling of the band name (DIR EN GREY). I don't think it's necessary to provide proof that this is how the band writes it, since that's already been done before. My argument is just that seeing "Dir En Grey" all over the page is inaccurate, and will lead to more people miscapitalizing the name.[[User:Merveilles|Merveilles]] ([[User talk:Merveilles|talk]]) 13:26, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
I know this has been brought up before, but I cringe every time I see Dir En Grey. I can appreciate sticking to formatting rules, but when it comes to artist/album/song titles, I think they should be stylized as the artist intended. I think you guys have been too anal about this and should just switch over to the official styling of the band name (DIR EN GREY). I don't think it's necessary to provide proof that this is how the band writes it, since that's already been done before. My argument is just that seeing "Dir En Grey" all over the page is inaccurate, and will lead to more people miscapitalizing the name.[[User:Merveilles|Merveilles]] ([[User talk:Merveilles|talk]]) 13:26, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
:I agree that Dir En Grey is wrong. However I would accept Dir en grey or Dir en Grey, those at least make sense because the "e" in "en" should not be caps.
:I agree that Dir En Grey is wrong. However I would accept Dir en grey or Dir en Grey, those at least make sense because the "e" in "en" should not be caps.


:But I would like to ask supporters of the current format why an artist's name can be all lowercase (see: [[k.d. lang]], [[will.i.am]], or [[moe. (band)]]), but some can't be all caps? I see how it would look horrible throughout the article (which is why I would prefer the stylizations mentioned above), but if lowercase is acceptable caps should be too. [[User:Xfansd|Xfansd]] ([[User talk:Xfansd|talk]]) 17:49, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
:But I would like to ask supporters of the current format why an artist's name can be all lowercase (see: [[k.d. lang]], [[will.i.am]], or [[moe. (band)]]), but some can't be all caps? I see how it would look horrible throughout the article (which is why I would prefer the stylizations mentioned above), but if lowercase is acceptable caps should be too. [[User:Xfansd|Xfansd]] ([[User talk:Xfansd|talk]]) 17:49, 9 June 2011 (UTC)



:I wouldn't mind "Dir en grey" since that's how the band wrote it for many years, and I think it looks nice. "Dir en Grey" is inaccurate though :P [[User:Merveilles|Merveilles]] ([[User talk:Merveilles|talk]]) 05:40, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
:I wouldn't mind "Dir en grey" since that's how the band wrote it for many years, and I think it looks nice. "Dir en Grey" is inaccurate though :P [[User:Merveilles|Merveilles]] ([[User talk:Merveilles|talk]]) 05:40, 13 June 2011 (UTC)


:Their name is spelled/capitilized as "Dir en grey" on their official facebook page. <ref>https://www.facebook.com/direngreyofficial</ref>[[Special:Contributions/63.112.12.186|63.112.12.186]] ([[User talk:63.112.12.186|talk]]) 17:58, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
:Their name is spelled/capitilized as "Dir en grey" on their official facebook page. <ref>https://www.facebook.com/direngreyofficial</ref>[[Special:Contributions/63.112.12.186|63.112.12.186]] ([[User talk:63.112.12.186|talk]]) 17:58, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
{{reflist-talk}}


:I brought this up two months ago, and no one ever opposed it, so I'm changing the name. :P [[User:Merveilles|Merveilles]] ([[User talk:Merveilles|talk]]) 03:09, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
:I brought this up two months ago, and no one ever opposed it, so I'm changing the name. :P [[User:Merveilles|Merveilles]] ([[User talk:Merveilles|talk]]) 03:09, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
Line 526: Line 26:
:::You can make a request at [[Wikipedia:Requested moves]]. You won't have any luck changing to a non-MOS compliant name though. --[[User:DAJF|DAJF]] ([[User talk:DAJF|talk]]) 03:19, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
:::You can make a request at [[Wikipedia:Requested moves]]. You won't have any luck changing to a non-MOS compliant name though. --[[User:DAJF|DAJF]] ([[User talk:DAJF|talk]]) 03:19, 10 August 2011 (UTC)


I'd just like to point out the stylization used on the [[bell hooks]] page. Why can't we do that for Dir en grey? <small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/66.214.197.61|66.214.197.61]] ([[User talk:66.214.197.61|talk]]) 18:50, 23 May 2015 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
== Main Band Picture ==

== Take out the Metal-Core genre please! ==
Please, Please! Take the "metal-core" genre off the page. I was simply going to remove it but decided to do it the right way and I created an account and posted here, solely for the purpose of hopefully taking out "metal-core." DIR EN GREY(<----How it should be stylized) is certainly in no way influenced by metal-core and definitely doesn't sound remotely like it.Please take out the "metal-core" genre from the page, it's embarrassing to the fans and the band. Thank you.[[User:Theconman4444|Theconman4444]] ([[User talk:Theconman4444|talk]]) 22:09, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Erm... DSS and Marrow both have strong metalcore influences (「欲巣にDREAMBOX」あるいは成熟の理念と冷たい雨 and rotting root as an example.) <small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/37.48.241.202|37.48.241.202]] ([[User talk:37.48.241.202|talk]]) 09:17, 26 May 2016 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

==Mergers proposed==
{{anchor|Merger proposal}}
Proposer's Rationale: ''These members are only known for this band, articles read like ESP instrument advertisement and sourced only to advertisement. Little info on members can go to main band page. [[:User:Ficadimerda|Ficadimerda]] ([[:User talk:Ficadimerda|talk]])''

===Merge of Shinya (musician)===
[[File:Merge-arrows.svg|50px|frameless|left]] [[Wikipedia:Proposed mergers#MERGE REQUESTS|Formal request has been received to merge]]: '''[[Shinya (musician)]]''' into '''[[Dir En Grey]]'''; dated: 10 September 2020 (UTC). Proposer's Rationale: ''Subject only known for this band, article is short stub with small content and long list of trivia. [[:User:Ficadimerda|Ficadimerda]] ([[:User talk:Ficadimerda|talk]]).'' Discuss below. [[User:GenQuest|<span style="color:Purple; text-shadow:brown 0.1em 0.2em 0.1em;">GenQuest</span>]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:GenQuest|<span style="color:Purple; text-shadow:brown 0.1em 0.2em 0.1em;">"Talk to Me"</span>]]</sup></small> 23:31, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

===Merge of Kaoru (musician)===
[[File:Merge-arrows.svg|50px|frameless|left]] [[Wikipedia:Proposed mergers#MERGE REQUESTS|Formal request has been received to merge]]: '''[[Kaoru (musician)]]''' into '''[[Dir En Grey]]'''; dated: 12 September 2020 (UTC). Discuss here. [[User:GenQuest|<span style="color:Purple; text-shadow:brown 0.1em 0.2em 0.1em;">GenQuest</span>]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:GenQuest|<span style="color:Purple; text-shadow:brown 0.1em 0.2em 0.1em;">"Talk to Me"</span>]]</sup></small> 15:07, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

===Merge of Toshiya (musician)===
[[File:Merge-arrows.svg|50px|frameless|left]] [[Wikipedia:Proposed mergers#MERGE REQUESTS|Formal request has been received to merge]]: '''[[Toshiya (musician)]]''' into '''[[Dir En Grey]]'''; dated: 12 September 2020 (UTC). Discuss here. [[User:GenQuest|<span style="color:Purple; text-shadow:brown 0.1em 0.2em 0.1em;">GenQuest</span>]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:GenQuest|<span style="color:Purple; text-shadow:brown 0.1em 0.2em 0.1em;">"Talk to Me"</span>]]</sup></small> 15:07, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

===Merge of Die (musician)===
[[File:Merge-arrows.svg|50px|frameless|left]] [[Wikipedia:Proposed mergers#MERGE REQUESTS|Formal request has been received to merge]]: '''[[Die (musician)]]''' into '''[[Dir En Grey]]'''; dated: 12 September 2020 (UTC). Discuss here. [[User:GenQuest|<span style="color:Purple; text-shadow:brown 0.1em 0.2em 0.1em;">GenQuest</span>]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:GenQuest|<span style="color:Purple; text-shadow:brown 0.1em 0.2em 0.1em;">"Talk to Me"</span>]]</sup></small> 15:07, 17 September 2020 (UTC)


=== Comments ===
Since the current one is from 2009, does anyone else think it would be a good idea to update it with something more recent? Perhaps a promo shot from 2011 or one of their latest tour pictures. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/70.41.213.167|70.41.213.167]] ([[User talk:70.41.213.167|talk]]) 19:41, 24 December 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
* '''Support merging all.''' There is no indication that these people are independently notable, and it is routine to merge crappy stubs of band members into band articles. The lack of independent, non-promotional sourcing and article text in particular is a strong argument to merge. At any time, if one of them becomes independently notable, e.g. due to a successful solo career or whatever, then they will get the sourcing that makes them [[WP:N|notable]] as an independent encyclopedia subject. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 19:46, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
:Unless the band is broken up and no other image is available, then the image used in the infobox for a band must be freely licensed or in the public domain. The current image fits this description, but promotional shots probably won't. Also, 2009 really isn't that long ago compared to other images. [[Special:Contributions/206.29.182.225|206.29.182.225]] ([[User talk:206.29.182.225|talk]]) 16:01, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 03:06, 16 November 2024

Proper styling of band name

[edit]

I know this has been brought up before, but I cringe every time I see Dir En Grey. I can appreciate sticking to formatting rules, but when it comes to artist/album/song titles, I think they should be stylized as the artist intended. I think you guys have been too anal about this and should just switch over to the official styling of the band name (DIR EN GREY). I don't think it's necessary to provide proof that this is how the band writes it, since that's already been done before. My argument is just that seeing "Dir En Grey" all over the page is inaccurate, and will lead to more people miscapitalizing the name.Merveilles (talk) 13:26, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that Dir En Grey is wrong. However I would accept Dir en grey or Dir en Grey, those at least make sense because the "e" in "en" should not be caps.
But I would like to ask supporters of the current format why an artist's name can be all lowercase (see: k.d. lang, will.i.am, or moe. (band)), but some can't be all caps? I see how it would look horrible throughout the article (which is why I would prefer the stylizations mentioned above), but if lowercase is acceptable caps should be too. Xfansd (talk) 17:49, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't mind "Dir en grey" since that's how the band wrote it for many years, and I think it looks nice. "Dir en Grey" is inaccurate though :P Merveilles (talk) 05:40, 13 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Their name is spelled/capitilized as "Dir en grey" on their official facebook page. [1]63.112.12.186 (talk) 17:58, 13 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://www.facebook.com/direngreyofficial
I brought this up two months ago, and no one ever opposed it, so I'm changing the name. :P Merveilles (talk) 03:09, 10 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Please adhere to the MOS guidelines rather than introducing stylistic forms just because they "look nice". The band name is currently promoted as "DIR EN GREY" anyway, so "Dir en grey" is outdated. --DAJF (talk) 03:19, 10 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I don't know how to change the page title. -_- If no one else does either I'll try again.. Merveilles (talk) 03:17, 10 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You can make a request at Wikipedia:Requested moves. You won't have any luck changing to a non-MOS compliant name though. --DAJF (talk) 03:19, 10 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'd just like to point out the stylization used on the bell hooks page. Why can't we do that for Dir en grey? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.214.197.61 (talk) 18:50, 23 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Take out the Metal-Core genre please!

[edit]

Please, Please! Take the "metal-core" genre off the page. I was simply going to remove it but decided to do it the right way and I created an account and posted here, solely for the purpose of hopefully taking out "metal-core." DIR EN GREY(<----How it should be stylized) is certainly in no way influenced by metal-core and definitely doesn't sound remotely like it.Please take out the "metal-core" genre from the page, it's embarrassing to the fans and the band. Thank you.Theconman4444 (talk) 22:09, 8 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Erm... DSS and Marrow both have strong metalcore influences (「欲巣にDREAMBOX」あるいは成熟の理念と冷たい雨 and rotting root as an example.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.48.241.202 (talk) 09:17, 26 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Mergers proposed

[edit]

Proposer's Rationale: These members are only known for this band, articles read like ESP instrument advertisement and sourced only to advertisement. Little info on members can go to main band page. Ficadimerda (talk)

Merge of Shinya (musician)

[edit]

Formal request has been received to merge: Shinya (musician) into Dir En Grey; dated: 10 September 2020 (UTC). Proposer's Rationale: Subject only known for this band, article is short stub with small content and long list of trivia. Ficadimerda (talk). Discuss below. GenQuest "Talk to Me" 23:31, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Merge of Kaoru (musician)

[edit]

Formal request has been received to merge: Kaoru (musician) into Dir En Grey; dated: 12 September 2020 (UTC). Discuss here. GenQuest "Talk to Me" 15:07, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Merge of Toshiya (musician)

[edit]

Formal request has been received to merge: Toshiya (musician) into Dir En Grey; dated: 12 September 2020 (UTC). Discuss here. GenQuest "Talk to Me" 15:07, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Merge of Die (musician)

[edit]

Formal request has been received to merge: Die (musician) into Dir En Grey; dated: 12 September 2020 (UTC). Discuss here. GenQuest "Talk to Me" 15:07, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

[edit]
  • Support merging all. There is no indication that these people are independently notable, and it is routine to merge crappy stubs of band members into band articles. The lack of independent, non-promotional sourcing and article text in particular is a strong argument to merge. At any time, if one of them becomes independently notable, e.g. due to a successful solo career or whatever, then they will get the sourcing that makes them notable as an independent encyclopedia subject.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  19:46, 23 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
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