Talk:Jacinda Ardern

Semi-protected edit request on 10 March 2023

change "per cent" to "percent" 2806:2F0:5140:16C:58AF:4F8C:5714:22B6 (talk) 23:50, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

 Not done. Either "per cent" or "percent" can be used depending on the national variety of English, according to MOS:PERCENT. Although New Zealanders understand and use both forms, "per cent" is the form used by the Heinemann New Zealand Dictionary (1979 edition).-gadfium 00:42, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Biased article, reads like propaganda

The article is not neutral or unbiased and reads like propaganda in favour of Ardern. I don't think it shows how unpopular she was and how many of her policies were heavily disliked domestically. 152.37.85.94 (talk) 02:02, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Can you provide reliable sources to support your claim? HiLo48 (talk) 02:19, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Out of personal observation, she did seem to be quite popular as described by the article, until near the end of the COVID-19 lockdowns and her tenure. The article has a passing mention of this, saying Whilst towards the end of her tenure Ardern faced decreased levels of popularity domestically and increased levels of criticism from across the political spectrum, she denied that these were factors in her decision to resign as prime minister, which is all I can find on opposition to her in a quick scan. No explanation is made on what this criticism is about, so it does read a bit like a hagiography. —Panamitsu (talk) 02:54, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

HiLo48 It is obvious that no political figure lacks criticism, and you could simply google. The Covid measures were protested by some, then inflation and deepening social inequality are blamed for wider criticisms. Whether one agrees or not with the criticisms, dissatisfaction with her grew so bad over time that eventually instead of her planned 3rd term run she resigned entirely from politics and her party may be thumped in the next elections. This seems a major point of biographical life change and legacy that is not as readily apparent in the article as would seem reasonable for the WP:WEIGHT of coverage and just to convey her life story - the article just has minor mention in Public image section and a bit more at the side article Resignation of Jacinda Ardern. Pretty much any search on her will show some more negative items -- try a search for example with the recent Sky News phrase the "long, bad dream of Jacinta Ardern". Results include

• BBC Why Jacinda Ardern's star waned in New Zealand
• The Guardian Some of Jacinda Ardern’s legacy in New Zealand is safe. A lot of it isn’t
• AP News New Zealand’s Jacinda Ardern, an icon to many, to step down
• The Guardian Support for Jacinda Ardern and NZ Labour sinks to lowest since 2017
• 1news How Dame Jacinda Ardern's profile went from saint to witch
• Britannica article on her Jacinda Ardern

Cheers Markbassett (talk) 20:49, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, but you lost me when YOU told ME to Google things to support what is presumably YOUR position. That is what almost every conspiracy theorist and right wing nutter I've ever encountered does. That doesn't mean I necessarily believe you are a conspiracy theorist and/or right wing nutter, but it's not a good starting position. Then you lost me even more when you placed a strong emphasis on something from Sky News. When it comes to Labor governments, Sky News has no credibility at all. Perhaps you could extract some relevant remarks from the more credible sources in your list, such as the BBC and the Guardian. HiLo48 (talk) 22:29, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

@HiLo48 Is conspiracy theories a civil topic here? —Panamitsu (talk) 01:47, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

I am simply trying to encourage a better level of discussion here. It just seems so fashionable, but useless, today to tell others to Google things. We are better than that. HiLo48 (talk) 02:13, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

HiLo48 Lets just talk edits. I will simply proceed to the guidance of WP:TALK#USE about cites and what edits might go where to suit the thread topic "shows how unpopular she was and how many of her policies were heavily disliked domestically". In general, I propose :

• start the last para of the lead with a sentence of declining popularity to her and her policies as suitable preface to the abrupt "On 19 January 2023, Ardern announced she would resign"
• and add one to three paragraphs in the body using my five links of AP/BBC/Guardian/1News -- winding up a bit closer to the coverage visible at the sixth link of Britannica.
• I would think that should be one in the Domestic Affairs section of her second term and one in her Resignation section rather than have a 'criticisms' section.

Cheers Markbassett (talk) 17:43, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

I've had a good look at those sources. Unfortunately, the one link there that would explicitly do what you say you want, simply describe her declining popularity, the second Guardian link, isn't working for me. I am still puzzled as to what really went wrong, and what were really the major factors. Obviously antivaxers and those opposed to vaccine mandates didn't like what she did. Others say that saved lives. Was that enough? HiLo48 (talk) 22:23, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

I've fixed Markbassett's link to the second Guardian article. —Panamitsu (talk) 23:04, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Are you sure? Now I'm just getting "This site can’t be reached". HiLo48 (talk) 01:24, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes it works fine for me. The link has the title of the article so you can just Google it if the link does not work for you for some reason. —Panamitsu (talk) 01:40, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

OK. Got it now. Must have been a network glitch at my end. That's a good source, and it demonstrates the core fact that she and her party lost popularity. We could certainly write something based on that. But without a source based on proper surveying, I don't think we should try to say WHY that happened. HiLo48 (talk) 02:16, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Showing unpopularity and disliked policies

User:Panamitsu and User:HiLo48 (Outdenting to a new subsection since there seems some agreement to add content that "shows how unpopular she was and how many of her policies were heavily disliked domestically".)

If the general approach proposed (one line in the lead and a couple paras in the body) is acceptable, perhaps we move toward specific edits and cites for that. Which of the following seem best to represent the thread of "shows how unpopular she was and how many of her policies were heavily disliked domestically"?

I think I would seek the body parts to have specifics and factual events at the end of 2022 and start of 2023. I think a coverage of how many things were disliked [e.g. here] would mean some content about the wider electorate concerns of projections of a recession, stubbornly high inflation, national fears over crime, grim polling and enduring pockets of anti-government conspiracists.

• Polling showing precise Labour popularity numbers decline to 33% with context of lowest since 2017 before she was PM.
• Polling on whether people “think the country is going in the right direction” started tracking down from a high of 70% in early 2021 to 30% at the end of 2022.
• Protesters occupied parliament’s lawns for weeks, with fires and clashes break out at New Zealand parliament as police move in to clear protest
• Ardern’s vehicle was chased and forced on to a curb by anti-vaccination protesters calling her a Nazi and yelling obscenities at a school visitation.
• An inflation rate of 7.2%, with petrol prices started spiking mid-year and grocery costs up 10.7% annually.
• Announced plans to engineer a “shallow recession” in 2023 to tame the inflation
• Hiked the official cash rate from 1% in 2019 to 4.25% at the end of 2022, with the context of drove up mortgage payments and median house prices dropped 7.5% year on year.

Then there are expressed views of campaign promises where time passed and people viewed these as Labour failed to deliver (e.g. here and here).

• More affordable housing
• Child poverty and general poverty or wealth inequalities
• Crime crisis
• Immigration issues

Cheers Markbassett (talk) 15:44, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

It has been a few days without any comments on the above, so I think I will try some on the first couple parts above of a lede line and specifics in body content. I ran out of energy at the ‘failed promises’ part above, so won’t try that part at this time. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 14:35, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Anything you write must be very carefully written. I personally see no problem with what Adern did. She refused to play populist politics, and made hard decisions that were in the best interests of her country. You can perhaps write words to the effect that "Some did not like her policies", and very thoroughly source that to good sources, but in no way can you even imply that they were bad policies. HiLo48 (talk) 09:02, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

• per TALK above, I have added a line to the lead, "In 2022, domestic popularity for Ardern and her policies plummeted. " just before the line saying resigned in 2023. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 03:34, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

An editor altered that “plummeted” to “fell considerably” with edit remark “less tabloid”. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 03:42, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

• per TALK above, I have added a line to second term section to mention the domestic popularity polls plummeting to 30%, with context of that is less than before she took office. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 03:51, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

• per TALK above, in the Covid 19 section I have added text about the Covid protests camping on Parliament grounds, and on protestors chasing Ardern. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 04:45, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

An editor deleted the text about February 2022 Covid protests with edit note “Not about Ardern”. I’m dubious it conveys the situation - attitudes about her and her policies and this TALK thread "shows how unpopular she was and how many of her policies were heavily disliked domestically" - if it doesn’t include the more famous and large protests over the Covid policies stated as hers in the prior 4 paragraphs. The chasing of her van comes off a bit abruptly and puzzling without some the wider context of immediately before the date and “Covid” topic of protests. But I’ll maybe look for 5 or 6 individual incidents of directly protesting her and/or directly noting her policies as failed (e.g. child poverty barely moved, housing got worse noted here). The phrasing in Domestic section for example might need rework - it seems very short compared to lengthy touting of her efforts and the short phrasing “critics say rising housing costs are continuing” - seems incorrectly portraying a fact as a dubious claim. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 04:13, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm afraid your own personal opinion is coming into play too much here - "directly noting her policies as failed". People protesting against something a politician has done does not mean their policies are wrong.— Preceding unsigned comment added by HiLo48 (talk • contribs) 2024-04-20 (UTC)

User:HiLo48 The key word is "directly" -- since "Not about Ardern" was said for deleting the line of the most famous and huge protest then the alternative approach for the topic thread "shows how unpopular she was and how many of her policies were heavily disliked domestically" would seem to be provide a number of specifics that directly involve her, "5 or 6 individual incidents of directly protesting her and/or directly noting her policies as failed ". If you have some other notion for how to suit the topic "shows how unpopular she was and how many of her policies were heavily disliked domestically" then please suggest. That the approval rating was only 29% is a factual and decent start to showing that she was strongly and widely disliked -- but it is doesn't provide any detail as to what was disliked or how and why. I thought "shows how unpopular she was and how many of her policies were heavily disliked domestically" was illustrated by the massive protest at Parliament, and a single small incident wouldn't do the same unless it's one of many being shown. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 23:37, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

So long as reliable sources are used, it's fine for us to talk about the fact that some of her policies were unpopular, but we cannot say, or even imply, that those policies were wrong. Choosing to mention specific demonstrations is heading into dangerous territory. Most of the time, the number of people at a demonstration is minuscule compared with the number of voters, and we would be omitting other events where support for her was shown. HiLo48 (talk) 23:46, 22 April 2024 (UTC)