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→‎top: Fixed WikiProject template(s) to remove page from Category:WikiProject templates with unknown parameters or a sub-category, plus general fixes
 
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== Strange content deletion summary ==


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== Requesting inputs at AFD - Islamic Bill of Rights for Women in the Mosque ==
User @[[User:Aronanki|Aronanki]] seems to [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Islamic_feminism&diff=1130767726&oldid=1130476264 have deleted] following sourced content with a strange deletion criteria bordering to [[Takfiri]] . Their deletion summary says " '''Not clear if Alinejad considers herself a Muslim or not.'''"


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Requesting inputs at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Islamic Bill of Rights for Women in the Mosque (2nd nomination)]] discussion. - [[User:Bookku| Bookku ]] ([[User talk:Bookku|talk]]) 05:14, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Islamic feminist philosophy and movement is much bigger than just one [[Masih Alinejad]] and not including some content regarding one 'Alinejad' is not going to make much difference to the article. What is concerning is the criteria mentioned in edit summary for deletion, IdK how do they reconcile with Wikipedia policies.


==Wiki Education assignment: Gender and Technoculture 320-03==
{{dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment | course = Wikipedia:Wiki_Ed/California_State_University_Fullerton/Gender_and_Technoculture_320-03_(Spring_2024) | assignments = [[User:R.martha|R.martha]] | reviewers = [[User:Dionasaur|Dionasaur]] | start_date = 2024-01-22 | end_date = 2024-05-10 }}


<span class="wikied-assignment" style="font-size:85%;">— Assignment last updated by [[User:Momlife5|Momlife5]] ([[User talk:Momlife5|talk]]) 15:52, 9 March 2024 (UTC)</span>
As per [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AReference_desk%2FHumanities&diff=1133877965&oldid=1133875828 feedback] received @ [[WP:Reference desk/Humanities]] 'Alinejad' is brought up Muslim. (Current status matter of further research)


==Wiki Education assignment: Gender and Technoculture 320-01==
{{dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment | course = Wikipedia:Wiki_Ed/California_State_University_Fullerton/Gender_and_Technoculture_320-01_(Spring_2024) | assignments = [[User:Glo.rriaa|Glo.rriaa]] | reviewers = [[User:Lesly24|Lesly24]], [[User:Leil4hhh|Leil4hhh]] | start_date = 2024-01-22 | end_date = 2024-05-10 }}


<span class="wikied-assignment" style="font-size:85%;">— Assignment last updated by [[User:ACHorwitz|ACHorwitz]] ([[User talk:ACHorwitz|talk]]) 15:56, 21 March 2024 (UTC)</span>
Idk whether Islamic feminist has to be a Muslim. What if an activist or academic is not a Muslim or left Islam or some one with extreme views declared a Muslim too as non-Muslim ([[Takfiri]]), Whether Wikipedia will stop taking their references in the articles relating to Muslim world merely on such grounds? Does Wikipedia has any such existent policies.


Tomorrow some one may very well argue, any kind of feminism can not be Islamic, people engaging in feminism can not be Muslims, so Wikipedia should not have article with title 'Islamic feminism'. Idk, What reply Wikipedians would have for any such argument. To me such deletions sound like [[WP:IDONTLIKEIT]].


Any ways deleted content was as follows

".. [[Masih Alinejad]] began the movement [[My Stealthy Freedom]] in protest of forced hijab policies in Iran. The movement began as a Facebook page where women uploaded pictures of themselves defying Iran's mandatory hijab laws. .."<ref>{{Cite web |date=2015-11-17 |title=In Iran, Exposing Hair In Public Is A 'Stealthy Freedom' |url=https://www.nhpr.org/2015-11-17/in-iran-exposing-hair-in-public-is-a-stealthy-freedom |access-date=2022-06-02 |website=New Hampshire Public Radio |language=en}}</ref>

{{Reflist-talk}}

One user assumed her to be Muslim and added her activism to this article on Islamic Feminism , while other user seem to doubt her Muslimness though she seems to have been brought up Muslim is known. Idk what are prevailing WP policies in this respect.

* I do not have issues if content is deleted on any other valid policies. Here I do have concern related to the reason given in edit summary only.

[[User:Bookku|&#32;Bookku ]] ([[User talk:Bookku|talk]]) 07:59, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

:Whether Masih Alinejad is a Muslim or not is irrelevant—and whether we, as editors, consider her a Muslim is doubly irrelevant. We should always let reliable, secondary sources decide. (Of course, there may be exceptions based on other policies: [[WP:BLP]], [[WP:UNDUE]], etc. But I don't think any of those apply here.) Looking at the source, NHPR clearly considers Alinejad important enough to comment on the subject of headscarf/hijab issues in Iran, which this article covers. So yes, we should include this content. [[User:Woodroar|Woodroar]] ([[User talk:Woodroar|talk]]) 15:09, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
::But the article is not on "women in Islam" or "women in Iran" or whatever, the article is on "Islamic feminism", i.e. the feminist movement(s) ''within Islam''. There is nothing to indicate that Alinejad is primarily interested in reform of Islam along feminist lines, or that her activism has anything to do with any interpretation of Islamic principles. She is a political activist fighting against Islamic laws in Iran, her work is important to mention in the context of that discussion but that is not what this article is about. Unless we have statements from Alinejad indicating that she identifies as a Muslim feminist, or a source indicating that she is aligned with them or receiving public support from any self-identified Muslim/Islamic feminists, I do not think we should just presume that Alinejad's work and the anti-hijab mandate protests in Iran more generally are occurring under the framework of "Islamic feminism" just because Iran is a Muslim country. You are more than welcome to add this material to another article with a broader focus on women's rights in Islam and Islamic societies. [[User:Aronanki|Aronanki]] ([[User talk:Aronanki|talk]]) 15:21, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
:::The article already includes a "Dress code" section, where we mention the hijab and burqa and France, the headscarf and Algeria, and the veil and Tunisia. How is this different? [[User:Woodroar|Woodroar]] ([[User talk:Woodroar|talk]]) 17:32, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
::::I've [[WP:STATUSQUO|restored the status quo]] for the time being. This has been in the article for at least 6 months, is supported by at least 3 editors, and it's in a section with similar content. After reading [[Masih Alinejad]] and [[My Stealthy Freedom]] and (some of) the available sources, I simply can't see how this content isn't relevant. [[User:Woodroar|Woodroar]] ([[User talk:Woodroar|talk]]) 16:38, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

== Regarding the dress code section. ==

The time article used as a reference that most Islamic feminists are in favor of the veil doesn't actually make any claim about whether this is the majority view or not, the article only includes the words of Leila Ahmed, however I didn't place (citation needed), and rather simply added whether to veil or not, because this is the stance of the majority since the majority of them don't believe it to be an obligation, but rather a choice that Muslim women are free to make, so they aren't in favor of wearing it only, but in fact a citation needed here would be more accurate.

About the "small fringe" that is used to describe feminists who oppose the veil, to make any claim about whether such stance is the minority or the majority you have to provide a citation that backs this up, saying that this is a small fringe minority would require an even stronger evidence from non-biased sources, but there are none cited, if there are no citations, then it is more appropriate to simply say "some" or "many". [[User:Mahmoud9896|Mahmoud9896]] ([[User talk:Mahmoud9896|talk]]) 13:18, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

:<s>The article makes no comment on the views of Islamic feminists on the theological semantics of veiling, it only says that Islamic feminists tend to look favorably on veiling as a symbol of "Islamic freedom" as the cited article said. It is also acknowledged in the same section that the veil is controversial IF it is a product of social pressure or coercion, which you seem to agree is the position of most Islamic feminists.

:Wrt the wording some/many/small fringe, I guess saying "SOME Islamic feminists oppose the veil" is okay, it's a trivially correct statement whether it is 2% of Islamic feminists or 70% of Islamic feminists who oppose the veil. However the article simply was trying to point out that Islamic feminists are not consistently opposed to the veil itself, only to forcing it. Being against forced prayers or fasting would not constitute opposition to prayer or fasting, similarly opposition to forced hijab says nothing about the views of Islamic feminists or others on hijab itself as a religious/cultural/social practice.

:Fwiw Pew polls indicate most American Muslim women veil, though I don't know how many identify themselves as feminists. However many prominent American Muslim feminists like Linda Sarsour, Ilhan Omar, Dalia Mogahed, and so on have publicly talked about hijab as being part of their feminism.
:[[User:MisterMrX|MisterMrX]] ([[User talk:MisterMrX|talk]]) 18:54, 14 July 2023 (UTC)</s> <small>Strike confirmed sock of {{noping|Aronanki}} comments [[User:Dreamy Jazz|Dreamy <i style="color:#d00">'''Jazz'''</i>]] <sup>''[[User talk:Dreamy Jazz|talk to me]]'' &#124; ''[[Special:Contribs/Dreamy Jazz|my contributions]]''</sup> 12:42, 17 July 2023 (UTC)</small>

::Where does the article make a definitive statement about the collective stance of Islamic feminists? please cite the relevant quote here.
::Also many Islamic feminists are opposed to veiling as a practice itself, including Mona Eltahawy, Fadela Amara, Hedi Mhenni, Masih Alinejad, Sihem Habchi. etc
::The hijab has always been a controversial topic in feminist Islamic spaces, some have positive views of of it, some have negative views of it, some are neutral and just believe that it is a choice that women are free to make or not.
::If you are going to cite how many wear the hijab as a form of Islamic freedom and justice and support it, you also have to mention the other negative view of it without bias, so that you can have a more balanced article.
::Saying that only a small fringe portion of Islamic feminists oppose it sounds really biased and ideologically connated, better leave it at "some". which provides a more factual and neutral view of it. [[User:Mahmoud9896|Mahmoud9896]] ([[User talk:Mahmoud9896|talk]]) 20:32, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
:::My only input here is to mention that we don't necessarily balance around showing positives and negatives. Our [[WP:NPOV|Neutral Point of View]] policy is that we balance in proportion to what reliable sources say. Of course, sometimes that does mean showing positives and negatives. Other times it means giving greater prominence to one view over another. And in extreme examples where most or all reliable sources agree that one side is right (say, homeopathy or vaccination or the Moon landing), that's what our articles should reflect. It's just something to keep in mind. [[User:Woodroar|Woodroar]] ([[User talk:Woodroar|talk]]) 21:10, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
::::Understood, this makes perfect sense indeed, I will keep that in mind. [[User:Mahmoud9896|Mahmoud9896]] ([[User talk:Mahmoud9896|talk]]) 21:17, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
::::This was exactly my problem with the section as originally written. At that time it was weighted way too strongly towards the position that Islamic feminists tend to actively oppose the veil, simply not in line with reality. [[User:Aronanki|Aronanki]] ([[User talk:Aronanki|talk]]) 21:29, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
:::Sorry I meant this Wiki article, not the Time article.
:::Anyway the point that this section is trying to get across as I said is that there is no universal opposition to the veil among Islamic feminists. [[User:Aronanki|Aronanki]] ([[User talk:Aronanki|talk]]) 23:08, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
:::It's not like anyone has done a poll of Muslim feminists, however one can observe general cultural and social trends.
:::Mona Eltahawy is not against hijab anymore. She has actually criticized European feminists harshly for their rhetoric against the veil.
:::Masih may not even be a Muslim, she has never made any public statements one way or the other. The others you mention are secular French Muslims.
:::It seems that there are very few actual "Islamic feminists" who oppose hijab. Most of the examples people can find seem to be secular Muslims who are operating from a secular framework and not within the confines of so-called "Islamic feminism". Most of the very prominent Islamic feminists like Leila Ahmed, Amina Wadud, Fatema Mernissi, Dalia Mogahed, Linda Sarsour are either fully pro-hijab or otherwise at least somewhat supportive. [[User:Aronanki|Aronanki]] ([[User talk:Aronanki|talk]]) 02:34, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
::::{{talkquote|.. Masih may not even be a Muslim, she has never made any public statements one way or the other. The others you mention are secular French Muslims.}}
::::{{talkquote|..It seems that there are very few actual "Islamic feminists" who oppose hijab. Most of the examples people can find seem to be secular Muslims who are operating from a secular framework and not within the confines of <u>so-called "Islamic feminism". ..</u>
::::}}
::::I am afraid, above part of statement seem to border [[WP:OR]] if not carefully articulated may risk in [[WP:Synth]]. [[User:Bookku|&#32;Bookku ]] ([[User talk:Bookku|talk]]) 04:14, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
::::Please cite the relevant reference regarding Mona El Tahawy.
::::"Masih may not even be a Muslim, she has never made any public statements one way or the other. The others you mention are secular French Muslims."
::::I think you were corrected elsewhere in the article about this one, so there's no need to repeat it again.
::::Now lets start with each feminists you have cited here.
::::1-Leila Ahmed isn't either pro or anti Hijab, she says that the meaning of hijab is always local, while she acknowledges that in the US the hijab is positive, she acknowledges that elsewhere in many Muslim countries it is negative.
::::2-Amina Wadud is another one with a moderate stance on hijab, she believes that it isn't religiously required, but it is a choice women are free to make.
::::
::::3-Fatima Mernissi is the worst example you can use here, she considers it to be a part of the gender-segregation ideal that traditionalist Islam promotes, which seeks to separate women from the public realm, and confine them to the private space, she says in her book veil and the male elite the following quote about the hijab.
::::"So it is strange indeed to observe the modern course of this
::::concept, which from the beginning had such a strongly negative
::::connotation in the Koran. The very sign of the person who is
::::damned, excluded from the privileges and spiritual grace to which
::::the Muslim has access, is claimed in our day as a symbol of
::::Muslim identity, manna for the Muslim woman"
::::About Dalia Mogahed and Linda Sarsour, yes you are correct.
::::But on the other hand, you also have feminists like Irshad Manji, Fatima Mernissi, Mona el Tahawy, Olfa Youssef. and many other feminists that are mentioned in the article who have criticized the hijab, historically you also have feminists like Huda Shaarawy, Saiza Nabarawi, Nabawiyyah Musah who were also anti-veiling. [[User:Mahmoud9896|Mahmoud9896]] ([[User talk:Mahmoud9896|talk]]) 04:36, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
:::::@[[User:Mahmoud9896|Mahmoud9896]] It's good that you found out those sock accounts that much confusion is less.
:::::* ".. A small fringe of Islamic feminists,.. oppose hijab.. " This was earlier version
:::::* ".. Some Islamic feminists ,.. oppose hijab.. " was your first change
:::::* ".. On the other side, many Islamic feminists,,.. oppose hijab.. " this was another change you had accepted.
:::::As far as my readings of Islamic feminism goes they hold diverse opinions. Rather than quantifying that (Without support of any RS) how about saying either 'Islamic feminists hold diverse opinions' or 'Islamic feminists hold mixed opinions'? [[User:Bookku|&#32;Bookku ]] ([[User talk:Bookku|talk]]) 12:40, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
::::::I highly agree with that, I really found that the paragraph " the veil is not controversial in mainstream Islamic feminist discourse" was somewhat inaccurate.
::::::Also I didn't like how "manys" there are, so less quantifying is better. [[User:Mahmoud9896|Mahmoud9896]] ([[User talk:Mahmoud9896|talk]]) 17:18, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

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== Requesting inputs at AFD - Islamic Bill of Rights for Women in the Mosque ==

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Requesting inputs at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Islamic Bill of Rights for Women in the Mosque (2nd nomination)]] discussion. - [[User:Bookku|&#32;Bookku ]] ([[User talk:Bookku|talk]]) 05:14, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 20:25, 10 April 2024

Requesting inputs at AFD - Islamic Bill of Rights for Women in the Mosque

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Requesting inputs at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Islamic Bill of Rights for Women in the Mosque (2nd nomination) discussion. - Bookku (talk) 05:14, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki Education assignment: Gender and Technoculture 320-03

[edit]

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 22 January 2024 and 10 May 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): R.martha (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Dionasaur.

— Assignment last updated by Momlife5 (talk) 15:52, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki Education assignment: Gender and Technoculture 320-01

[edit]

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 22 January 2024 and 10 May 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Glo.rriaa (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Lesly24, Leil4hhh.

— Assignment last updated by ACHorwitz (talk) 15:56, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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