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{{Archives}}
== Untitled thread 2003 ==
Nearly every link to "Whig" goes to the British whig party (and there are a lot of them) shouldent this be turned back into a page about the British Whigs, with a link to the other ones. either that or someone should fix all the links (which would probably take all day) [[User:G-Man|G-Man]] 21:45, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

:It never was a page about the British one; it was a page with all of them on, rather messily I thought. If the current arrangement is unsatisfactory, perhaps [[Whig (UK)]] needs moving here and a disambig block stuck at the top - there do seem to be only the USA and Liberian ones. [[User:Morwen|Morwen]] 21:48, Dec 16, 2003 (OTC)

OK I'll do that then [[User:G-Man|G-Man]] 21:49, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)
::Please sort out the links before turning this into a British page. US President Jackson is one of the pages directed here! [[User:Rmhermen|Rmhermen]] 21:51, Dec 16, 2003 (UTC)

I'm in the process of sorting out the links [[User:G-Man|G-Man]] 22:05, 16 Dec 2003 (FTC)

I think I've sent all the American links to the right place but someone might like to double check to see if I've missed any [[User:G-Man|G-Man]] 22:24, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

== Untitled thread 2004 ==
The Whig party is well documented on Wikipedia. The [[Radical Party (UK)|Radical party]] receive no such documentation. I do not have any information on their history or ideology, but I would like to know about them. Does anyone have any information on them?

:There was no such thing as the Radical Party, as I said in the [[Radical Party (UK)] talk page. There were a group of MPs in the early-mid 19th century who called themselves Radicals, who were generally allied to the Whigs, but to their left. [[User:John Kenney|john]] 18:49, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)

::Its all been moved to [[Radicals (UK)]]. The Radicals were a group of extremely interesting politicians, especially for their time. It is vital that we know what their ideology was.

::: I hold in front of me a copy of "The Radical Party: its principles, objects & leaders", written by three members of the party. It DID exist as a political party. Denying its existence is like denying the existence of the Green Party. Especially as the Radical Party had MPs ;-)

== Whigs ==
Removed the following line from the description of the Whig Party:

(now the [[Liberal Democrats (UK)|Liberal Democrats]])

Liberal Democrats have nothing to do with the Whig Party.

I think the term "whig" actually originates in the [[English Civil War]] period of the 1640s-50s, when it was used to refer to a radical faction of the Scottish [[Covenanters]] who called themselves the "Kirk party". [[User:Jdorney|Jdorney]]

Usually it's said to arise as a general political term during the exclusion crisis, but I don't really know. Do you have a source? [[User:John Kenney|john]] [[User_talk:John Kenney|k]] 15:59, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, the source in "The Civil Wars" edited by Jane Ohlmeyer and John Kenyon (Oxford 1998). On page 64, in the chapter on the Scottish civil wars by Edward Furgol, it says, "Back in Scotland, the covenanters had fragmented into two groups: the Engagers, who continued to support the King... and the Whiggamores (or "Whigs"), supporters of the Kirk party." Then as later, it was a term of abuse, I think, associating the Kirk party with cattle thieves rom the border region. [[User:Jdorney|Jdorney]]

Well, in that case, add it in in the intro bit. It should still be made clear that as a general term, it came into prominence with the exclusion crisis. [[User:John Kenney|john]] [[User_talk:John Kenney|k]] 05:57, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, that sounds about right. Of course, you could argue that the Glorious Revolution was a sort of re-run of the civil wars as well, couldnt you? But thats another days work! [[User:Jdorney|Jdorney]]

{{Election box metadata}}

==Over-mighty==
I don't quite get the bit which refers to the "over-mighty whigs". Does this mean that they thought they were better than the royalty, or were too powerful for comfort? Maybe this needs to be reworded to be a bit more precise. --[[User:Slashme|Slashme]] 08:50, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

:In general the article is very confused. "The Whigs" really refers to a set of closely inter-related aristocratic families who gained an unusual amount of power after 1688 and continued with exceptions (1783-1830) to exercise that power until the 1880s. G.W.E. Russell explained "the essence of Whiggery was relationship...The Whig, like the poet was born not made." When people talk about the "over-mighty whigs" they are usually referring to the Bedfords, Devonshires, Sutherlands, Granvilles, Westminsters, Norfolks, Carlisles, Spencers and Egertons. They considered themselves an exclusive group within even the aristocracy and people almost always had to be born into the group. The Whigs were a rich and exclusive set, but they considered themselves as representing or guiding popular movements for reform.

:Even as late as 1880, the representatives of the various Whig families formed the largest single group in Gladstone's cabinet. They disappeared gradually from the liberal party because their numbers were eroded over time by the various reform acts. And because they eventually split with the liberal party over Irish issues.

:The problem with the article is that it wants to make the simple-minded point of saying that the Conservative and Liberal parties are equal to the tories and Whigs. The actual situation has never been that simple. A short (four-page) description of the Whigs and their decline can be found in David Cannadine's "Decline and Fall of the British Aristocracy". [[User:70.234.216.33|70.234.216.33]] 03:22, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

::I've removed the simple minded statement that, 'Eventually the Whigs would evolve into the [[Liberal Party (UK)|Liberal Party]] (while the Tories became the [[Conservative Party (UK)|Conservative Party]])'. [[Special:Contributions/195.171.25.253|195.171.25.253]] ([[User talk:195.171.25.253|talk]]) 13:53, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

== Move ==
For the sake of clarity, I moved this to [[British Whig Party]], but that may not be the preferred name under WP naming conventions. It was the piped name the disambiguation page used when linking to [[Whig]] prior to my pointing that at the disambiguation page, so feel free to move this elsewhere if there's a better name. --[[User:Vedek Dukat|<span style="color:blue;">Vedek Dukat</span>]] <sup> [[User talk:Vedek Dukat|<span style="color:green;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 05:45, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

== Scottish Whigs ==
I have never come across any reference in 'Scottish venacular' to whig meaning 'assassin' or 'thief'. The sentence has thus been edited out, but if you cite any source for the statement I would be happy to see it reinstated.

As a term 'whig' entered into popular use in Scotland in 1648, when a group of extreme Covenanters siezed power in what was to be known as the Whiggamore Raid. Many of these men came from the south-west of the country, where the expression 'whiggam' was used by country people to urge on their horses.

[[User:Rcpaterson|Rcpaterson]] 02:29, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

== Country Whigs ==

MP constituency lists provide for the MP's party to be specified. [[Paul Foley (ironmaster)]] (Speaker) and [[Robert Harley]] later Earl of Oxford were leaders of a party that split away from the court or junto whigs, and allied themsleves with the Tories during Queen Anne's reign. Some are described as Tories in the lists. I have seen a reference (though I am not sure where) to one of the Foleys remaining a Tory after George I's accession. Most were of Presbyterian sympathy (though conforming to the Church of England), which tends to go with being Whigs. I think we need a debate on how to deal with the transition from being the Country Whigs to their joining the Tories. [[User:Peterkingiron|Peterkingiron]] ([[User talk:Peterkingiron|talk]]) 11:19, 17 March 2008 (UTC)


==Naming problems==
British Whig is improper, because there were Irish whigs who were not part of "Britain" and also sought independence from England. I believe the nomenclature is also non-historic, as the term "Whig" was used without any title before it throughout the 18th century. [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[User talk:Ottava Rima|talk]]) 22:48, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

== Nasty! ==

This passage {{Quotation|both might be termed conservative by modern parameters}} suffers from various ills. The pretentious abuse of “parameter” assaults the sensibilities of the literate reader, and the willful pigeon-holing of those who are not socialist nor social democrats as “conservative” is grossly biased. In addition, there is the simple confusion of [[Use–mention distinction|use]] with [[Use–mention distinction|mention]]. —[[User:SlamDiego|SlamDiego]]<sub><font size="-2">[[User_talk:SlamDiego|&#8592;T]]</font></sub> 20:43, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
:I have changed the phrase, slightly. However, I do not agree with your comment. The present text on [[William Pitt the younger]] seems to be written form the standpoint of the the modern Liberal Party, looking to the Whigs as their predecessors. However, William Pitt probably regarded himself as Whig (see recent biography by William Hague), not a Tory, though his party ultimately became the modern conservative party. One could say that this was the second occasion on which a whig faction allied with the tories went into government; the first was led by Edward Harley, Earl of Oxford, whose background was certainly whig, but was supported by the tories when he became Lord Treasurer. I have not altered the text concerning Pitt, but think it is not wholly NPOV. [[User:Peterkingiron|Peterkingiron]] ([[User talk:Peterkingiron|talk]]) 13:34, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

==Faction?==
How are they a ''faction''? I thought (and the article states) that they were one of the two major parties in the 18th and 19th centuries in the UK and not a faction of some larger group? Either the Title of the article needs to be explained (in the article) or needs to be changed - eg '''Whig (British political ''grouping'')''' as used by the article [[Tory (British political grouping)]]. [[User:Jubileeclipman|Jubilee♫]][[User talk:Jubileeclipman|<font color="darkorange">clipman</font>]] 03:02, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
:Or why not '''Whig (British political ''party'')'''? [[User:Jubileeclipman|Jubilee♫]][[User talk:Jubileeclipman|<font color="darkorange">clipman</font>]] 03:11, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

I was bold and moved the page to "party". I chose "Party" because the article uses that word and I cannot see any real conflict with other modern uses of the word. [[User:Jubileeclipman|Jubilee♫]][[User talk:Jubileeclipman|<font color="darkorange">clipman</font>]] 03:28, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

==Naming of articles==
BTW, for the sake of consistency a change to the name of this article should be mirrored in a change to the name of the article [[Tory (British political grouping)]]. <s>What is wrong with "party"? (erased because I already said that)</s> [[User:Jubileeclipman|Jubilee♫]][[User talk:Jubileeclipman|<font color="darkorange">clipman</font>]] 03:11, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

==Moved again==
'''Explanation''': I moved Whig back to "party" and previously moved Tory to the same for the following reasons:<br />
1. The word "grouping" is rarely used in either of the actual articles to describe either the Tories or the Whigs, and even then only as part of the formation history.<br />
2. The word "party", on the other hand, is used consistently throughout both articles to describe both groups of politicians. eg ''A few decades later, a new Tory party would rise...'', ''The first Tory party could trace its principles and politics...'', ''The Whigs are often described as one of the two original political parties (the other being the Tories)'', etc etc.<br />
3. The actual distinction between the modern word "Party" and older uses is not addressed in either article.<br />
4. Most modern readers will not understand the meaning of the word "grouping" and will misunderstand "faction".<br />
5. Modern readers will understand "Party" in the wide context of "a group of politicians sharing common policies and working together in opposition to other such groups".<br />
6. The word "Party" was used by both groups to label themselves long before subscriptions came into force.

Therefore, I have moved Whig back to "party". The Tory article is also under "party".

'''Note''': Perhaps further changes should be proposed via [[Wikipedia:Requested moves]]? This will avoid edit warring!

[[User:Jubileeclipman|Jubilee♫]][[User talk:Jubileeclipman|<font color="darkorange">clipman</font>]] 14:48, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

== Whig peers? ==

The paragraph about the end of the Whigs and their ideology is a bit vague, and unsourced. The Whigs survived as a faction in the Liberal party into the early 20th century. One assumes that some peers, at least, thought of themselves as Whigs even after the party changed to Liberal. Peers last a long time; the longest serving one as I write was appointed during world war 2. So, what happened to these old Whigs? Did they, as the article implies, join up with the Liberal Unionists? Did they jump straight to the Conservatives? Did they remain with the Liberal party? Or did they abandon the whip and remain as independents?

If any kind historian knows the answer, I would be very glad to see it :). [[User:BillMasen|BillMasen]] ([[User talk:BillMasen|talk]]) 09:17, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
:I am a historian, but not in this field. 19th century political parties were much looser groupings than the political parties of today. What the end of the article describes is a trend, perhaps not a formal merger. My guess is that the "old whigs" tended to join the Liberal Unionists (themselves a dissention from the liberals) and that they followed this into the Conservative party, just as the National Labour and National Liberals of the 1930s Conservative-led National Government merged into the Conservative Party in 1945. [[User:Peterkingiron|Peterkingiron]] ([[User talk:Peterkingiron|talk]]) 16:46, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

::That's also what I suspected. It would be good to have some confirmation from somewhere, although it's an obscure point. [[User:BillMasen|BillMasen]] ([[User talk:BillMasen|talk]]) 09:18, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
What a shame this article isn't being written by anyone who knows what they are talking about. If you don't understand the politics, don't write the article -- Liberal Democrats -- heaven preserve us. [[User:Sgmtp|Sgmtp]] ([[User talk:Sgmtp|talk]]) 21:50, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

== Rye House Plot ==

Under 'History', the paragraph on the Rye House Plot contains "both being implicated escaped to" which seems to need tidying up.[[User:AndrewAfresh|AndrewAfresh]] ([[User talk:AndrewAfresh|talk]]) 00:37, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

== Change of ideology in the infobox ==

The Whigs are not, in my opinion, best described as classical liberals. They were, at the end of the day, a conservative party which believed in slow, moderate and careful change as and when such a change became an issue. Prominent Whigs have included Burke (the 'father of conservatism'), the second Marquess of Rockingham (a fairly conservative figure) and Pitt the Elder (another conservative fellow and the father of the Tory Pitt the Younger - who described himself as an 'Independent Whig'). Whilst using terms to brand all the Whigs or Tories is not particularly accurate during these times (after all, these aren't really parties but loose coalitions of people), nonetheless, the Whigs aren't all, or even in a majority, what could be properly described as classically liberal. It is true that they were more liberal than the Tories but this is just relative. The Whigs, even when initiating reform, did so mostly for conservative reasons - Earl Grey, when pushing through parliamentary reform, didn't really believe that people had a right to vote but that reform was necessary to conserve the constitution - even if, in the long run, its balance might be altered. It must also be remembered that, whilst labelled 'Tories', the modern Conservative Party owes its origins and stance just as much (if not more) to the Whigs than their historical namesake. Indeed, it might well be argued that the Tories were reactionaries (although this isn't quite a fair representation of the views of the Tories) and the Whigs were conservative. Therefore, I propose that the ideology is changed to: liberal conservatism and constitutional monarchism with internal factions of classical liberalism and radicalism. Even then, this does not perfectly describe the ideas of the individuals and groups that made up the Whigs, but is, at least, a more accurate summary of their general stance. [[User:Gonefishing|Gonefishing]] ([[User talk:Gonefishing|talk]]) 11:00, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
:I think what say may have some weight, but I think to satisfy the criteria of [[WP:V|verifibility]] there would need to be a source accompanying this statement/change. I realise that there are no sources backing up the current ideology labels in this article, but it is congruent with the [[classical liberalism]] article, where it states that liberalism was born from Wiggery and is backed up by sources. So I'd say if you find a source then you can put in liberal conservatism (or conservative liberalism :p ), but I would also keep classical liberalism and radicalism as main ideologies as well, just because as you say, it's too hard to put a label on Whigs and these two thoughts may not be seen as sub-set factions of liberal conservatism but existing along side it within the party. [[User:Zangar|Zangar]] ([[User talk:Zangar|talk]]) 16:27, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
::historians argue that the 18th century Whig party was liberal for its day. For example: "Adam Smith's theory melded nicely with the liberal political stance of the Whig Party and its middle-class constituents." (''Encyclopedia of the Enlightenment'' by Wilson, and Reill - 2004 p 298); "The Whig party supported the supremacy of Parliament and toleration for Protestant dissenters and was adamantly opposed to a Catholic on the throne" [''The encyclopedia of libertarianism'' ed by Hamowy - 2008 p 542] [[User:Rjensen|Rjensen]] ([[User talk:Rjensen|talk]]) 21:00, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

The terms "liberal" and "conservative" have no place in discussing eighteenth century politics: those terms only came to be mainstream political labels in British politics in the 1820s. Whilst the Whigs did support policies that would later come to be termed "liberal" (civil liberties for Dissenters, rule of law/constitutional monarchy) they also held illiberal views on Catholic emancipation, were for mercantilist protectionism (it was the Tory Bolingbroke who favoured free trade with France and even as late as 1786 it was the Foxites who opposed freer trade with France on the traditional Whig grounds that the absolute monarchy of France was Britain's natural enemy), supported the various wars on the Continent and supported the Established Church of England. Applying liberal or conservative is anachronistic and is only going to lead to misunderstanding. Classical liberalism was a much later political philosophy and it is interesting to note that the British classical liberals&mdash;Cobden, Bright and the rest of the Manchester school&mdash;eschewed the label Whig. The political philosophy of the Whig party was Whiggism and although aspects of Whiggism came to be incorporated into liberalism and conservatism it does not mean the Whig party was a liberal or a conservative party.--[[User:Britannicus|Britannicus]] ([[User talk:Britannicus|talk]]) 21:46, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
:::Britannicus has lots of personal opinion with no RS. Try this: "Adam Smith's theory melded nicely with the liberal political stance of the Whig Party and its middle-class constituents." (Encyclopedia of the Enlightenment by Wilson, and Reill - 2004 p 298); Adam Smith certainly defines classical liberalism for the late 18th century and his ideas did not come out of thin air--they came out of and were taught in the Whig milieu says Mitchell ''The Whig World, 1760-1837'' (2006) p 100] Similarly "The Tories favored the King and the old regime; the Whigs worked to increase freedom in society. Adam Smith was a Whig" says Andres Marroquin, ''Invisible Hand: The Wealth of Adam Smith'' (2002) p 118. The Whigs were anti-Catholic in part because they saw Catholicism as reactionary and anti-liberal. [Pitt elder said, "The errors of Rome are rank idolatry, a subversion of all civil as well as religious liberty, and the utter disgrace of reason and of human nature."] And yes historians do use liberalism for this era. ["Edinburgh was indeed fast becoming one of the most enlightened cities in the kingdom. Clubs ... became a focus of light and liberalism with members such as Colin MacLaurin, Robertson, Hume, Cullen, Adam Smith" Williams, ''The Whig Supremacy, 1714-1760'' p 286] "During this time Locke was strongly influenced by Ashley's liberal point of views and his leading position in the Whig Party" [Bode, ''Political Philosophy of John Locke'' (2008) p 3 ] On Locke, Jennings emphasizes that "whiggism had produced its philosopher, John Locke"--another exemplar of liberalism. [Ivor Jennings, ''Party Politics. Volume: 2'' 1960. p 27] Note that Locke accompanied Shaftesbury to many important strategy meetings of Whig leaders. [[User:Rjensen|Rjensen]] ([[User talk:Rjensen|talk]]) 00:08, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
:::::Some sources: "To attempt to write the history of liberalism before the 1820s is thus, in point of method, akin to attempting to write the history of the eighteenth-century motor car. There were, of course, forms of transport which performed many of the functions which the motor car later performed, the sedan chair among them. Yet to explain the sedan chair as if it were an early version of the motor car, and by implication to condemn it for failing so lamentably to evolve into the motor car, is to turn a modern error of scholarly method into a failure of men in a past society. To stretch explanatory categories so far that they lose their specific reference and become mere holdalls for our ahistorical assumptions about the eternal nature of human motivation is to condemn us merely to explore the inner landscape of the assumptions and to deny us any perception of a need to locate those assumptions in time."—J. C. D. Clark, ''Revolution and Rebellion'' (Cambridge University Press, 1986), pp. 102-103.

:::::"The political vocabulary of democratic society, especially the terms 'liberalism', 'radicalism' and 'conservatism', still lay in the future: to write of eighteenth-century liberalism is as much of a solecism as to depict an eighteenth-century socialism or fascism, and for the same reasons. The early nineteenth century was indeed a period of remarkable conceptual innovation in which many new terms were coined in attempts to reify and so to mobilise new ideas, terms like agrarianism, phalanstery, Luddism, chartism, pantisocracy, harmonism; many, perhaps most, of them enjoyed only short lives. Three, liberalism, radicalism and conservatism, enjoyed longer currency, mainly because they became 'portmanteau terms' as more and more meanings were inserted into them. 'Conservatism' was a concept coined in the 1830s to describe the secular and pragmatic doctrine of a party of order after the nexus of Church and State which Burke defended had been displaced from its hegemonic position. To depict Burke as the 'father of English conservatism' would betray a fundamental misconception...equally, 'class' still meant 'group', not 'social stratum', still less 'inherent identity'. Liberalism and radicalism were invented by appropriating existing words. 'Liberal' was already a familiar adjective, defined as 'I. Not mean; not low in birth; not low in mind...2. Becoming a gentleman...3. Munificent; generous; bountiful; not parcimonious'...'Liberal' had no specifically political connotation until it was borrowed from the name of the Spanish party, the ''Liberales'', in the 1810s...Until then, a man could not be identified as 'a liberal', and only when the word became a noun was it reified...into 'liberalism'. That twentieth-century innovation, 'Lockeian liberalism', is a solecism."&mdash;J. C. D. Clark, ''English Society. 1660&ndash;1832'' (Cambridge University Press, 2000), pp. 5-7.
::::I am broadly with Britannicus on this. In my view, when dealing with the Whigs and the Tories, the terms "liberal" and "conservative" tend to confuse us more than they help us. [[User:Moonraker|Moonraker]] ([[User talk:Moonraker|talk]]) 01:39, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
::::If I may make a suggestion, we need an article on [[Whiggism]] – at the moment that is just a redirect to [[Whig]]. [[User:Moonraker|Moonraker]] ([[User talk:Moonraker|talk]]) 01:47, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
:::::The argument that "The terms "liberal" and "conservative" have no place in discussing eighteenth century politics" is not acceptable to scholars. Historians typically use modern terminology and concepts to analyze past events, rather than confine themselves to concepts available in 1700 or 300CE or 500 BCE or whenever. That is indeed what scholarship is all about, and theWikipedia mandate is to reflect modern scholarship. [[User:Rjensen|Rjensen]] ([[User talk:Rjensen|talk]]) 17:52, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
::::::You haven't actually engaged with the points Clark raised, though. To claim that the Whigs were a liberal or a conservative party is astoundingly unhistorical because the issues and structure of eighteenth century politics was very different from the time when liberalism and conservatism came into being. Scholarship is not about imposing modern-day labels onto the past, certainly for historians they study history for the sake of history, not to manipulate the past to make it more like the present than it really was.--[[User:Britannicus|Britannicus]] ([[User talk:Britannicus|talk]]) 18:16, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
::::::::the key thinkers associated with the Whigs--especially John Locke and Adam Smith--are the founders of modern liberalism and linked the party to it. Of course scholarship uses modern terminology--it would be impossible to write a book about the year 1688 using only the terminology and concepts in use that year. It's a matter of relying upon reliable sources and using the best available volcabulary to explain concepts. Historians do that. For example, "''Thus did Charles Fox proclaim and champion the pure doctrine of liberalism long before there was a Liberal party, even indeed before the word 'liberal' had entered the vocabulary of politics."'' [''Pitt Versus Fox: Father & Son, 1735-1806'' by Eyck (1950) p. 320] And yes, the major scholars of liberalism pay special attention to Locke and Smith. And they use the word "liberalism" contrary to Clark's complaints. Proof see: "Locke, Liberalism and the Natural Law of Money" by Joyce Appleby ''Past & Present'' 1976; ''Western liberalism: a history in documents from Locke to Croce'' ed Bramsted 1978; ''Locke, liberalism and empire'' by Ivison, 2004; ''Nature and politics: Liberalism in the philosophies of Hobbes, Locke, and Rousseau'' by Rapaczynski - 1987; ''Launching Liberalism: On Lockean Political Philosophy'' by Zuckert - 2002; ''Traditions of Liberalism: Essays on John Locke, Adam Smith, and John Stuart Mill'' by Haakonssen - 1988; ''The Unvarnished Doctrine: Locke, Liberalism, and the American Revolution'' by Dworetz, 1990.... etc etc. [[User:Rjensen|Rjensen]] ([[User talk:Rjensen|talk]]) 19:25, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
:::::::::Locke and Smith are definitely ''not'' the key thinkers of the Whigs. J. P. Kenyon in his book on ideology in British political philosophy from 1689 to 1720 (''Revolution Principles'') demonstrates that Locke was not a key figure in this period. Much more influential were the Whig pamphleteers such as Lord Somers, Algernon Sidney and Bishop Burnet. Smith was not a politician and his influence amongst them was patchy, with a few individuals across the political spectrum advocating his ideas. Certainly the Whigs in the eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries were not the free traders that the liberals would be in the nineteenth. Free trade was originally a Tory idea (as demonstrated by the economic historian William Ashley, 'The Tory Origin of Free Trade Policy') opposed by the Whigs, who upheld protectionism. Fox himself said he did not agree with Smith and it was the Whigs who opposed Pitt the Younger's commercial treaty with France. Fox cannot of championed the "pure doctrine of liberalism" if he opposed one of its chief characteristics and in British politics its one, big idea: free trade.
:::::::::"Fox very quickly became the subject of hagiography. From the Foxite cults of the early nineteenth century to the biographies written by twentieth-century Liberals in search of ancestors, the line of argument was clear. Fox was to be hailed as a keen reformer in religious and political life, and his arguments on these issues contributed mightily to the formation of the liberal creed of subsequent centuries. In fact, although there are strong liberal themes in much of what Fox said and wrote, he was never the reformer that later generations would have wished him to be...He would probably have been flattered, but almost certainly he would have been more amused, to discover that he had been credited with forming the ideas that guided the sober men in frock-coats who led Victorian Liberalism...Unlike nineteenth-century Liberals, Fox was always very circumspect about attacking long-standing constitutional arrangements...If Fox is to be hailed as a liberal, there were areas where this liberalism was barely visible...If liberalism meant securing those institutions through which liberties were believed to be traditionally guaranteed, Fox might be allowed the title. If liberalism, however, is taken to include a wish to remodel those institutions according to the requirements of some new, theoretical plan, then Fox would himself politely have refused the title."&mdash;L. G. Mitchell, ''Charles James Fox'' (Penguin, 1997), pp. 240-241, p. 250, p. 261.
:::::::::Thus is it is clear that the term "liberalism" as applied to the Whig party is misleading and will lead to confusion. It needs to be hedged with so many qualifications and exceptions that it is almost useless to apply it here. It is best to call the ideology of the Whig party "Whiggism", as Whig principles are called.--[[User:Britannicus|Britannicus]] ([[User talk:Britannicus|talk]]) 20:08, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
::[outdent] Britannicus's quote ["'' In fact, although there are '''strong liberal themes in much of what Fox said''' and wrote''"] shows that Whiggery encompassed liberalism. It's not an issue of how much a reform Fox accomplished (he did not accomplish much of anything and was mostly out of power). Britannicus says that you can't be a liberal unless you endorse free trade--but that came only after ''Wealth of Nations'' and indeed became possible only after the American & Napoleonic wars were over, at which point the Whigs adopted it. [[User:Rjensen|Rjensen]] ([[User talk:Rjensen|talk]]) 20:38, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
:::You don't seem to understand that Mitchell is arguing that applying the label "liberal" to Fox is problematic: it is much more accurate to label him a Whig. Can you tell me at what point the Whigs adopted free trade? The Whigs when they returned to power in 1830-1834 and 1835-1841 did not advocate free trade, it was the Conservative Sir Robert Peel who repealed the Corn Laws. The Whig Prime Minister Lord Melbourne was a staunch protectionist.--[[User:Britannicus|Britannicus]] ([[User talk:Britannicus|talk]]) 20:57, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
::::Mitchell says that Fox spoke out for liberalism but accomplished little in terms of legislation. The point is that the Whigs spoke out for liberalism. When does free trade become an essential ingredient for liberalism? Not in the 18th century which we are discussing. ["Was free trade in corn really a part of this ideology? If we take Adam Smith's position on matters of economic policy as the measuring rod of classical liberalism, the answer clearly is 'no'." says Cheryl Schonhardt-Bailey, ''The Rise of Free Trade'' 1997 p 62] Parliament's declaration in 1820 in favor of free trade was supported both by the Tory govt and the Whig opposition so it was not a party issue yet. [[User:Rjensen|Rjensen]] ([[User talk:Rjensen|talk]]) 21:13, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
:::::No, Mitchell is not arguing that. You are cherry picking one sentence to suit your views. He is arguing that despite later attempts by liberals to portray him as a staunch liberal, Fox's own stance on many so-called 'liberal' issues was ambiguous at best. Fox even confessed that parliamentary reform was something to be debated in the Commons, not something to be put into practice! (Mitchell, p. 253) He was a not liberal as the liberals of the nineteenth century were. It is an inappropriate label: 'Whig' is much more accurate. You claim that free trade was not an essential part of liberalism in the eighteenth century. There is no such thing as eighteenth century liberalism: it is a nineteenth century invention.--[[User:Britannicus|Britannicus]] ([[User talk:Britannicus|talk]]) 17:08, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

*In any event, I have started an article on [[Whiggism]] and linked it in the infobox for this page. This is a poor article so far, but help with it from all here is cordially invited. [[User:Moonraker|Moonraker]] ([[User talk:Moonraker|talk]]) 00:07, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

I have to say that I rather agree with Britannicus. I had originally started this with the idea of giving a greater balance to the ideology in the infobox but, as I pointed out several times myself, this was in itself not very accurate and full of exceptions. Now that an article has been started for [[Whiggism]], it might be appropriate to just have that as the Whigs' ideology. As for Smith being a Whig, that is quite questionable. Whilst Smith and Burke rather agreed on economics, there is no suggestion in Nicholas Phillipson's ''Adam Smith: An Enlightened Life'' that Smith was either a supporter of the Whigs or Tories. However, if he was anything like David Hume, a fellow Scottish Enlightenment philosopher and a man with whom he very much liked and agreed with his most of his ideas, he would have been, at the very least, anti-Whig and probably a Tory. That, too, is speculative, but I'd argue less so than the idea that Smith ''was'' a Whig. [[User:Gonefishing|Gonefishing]] ([[User talk:Gonefishing|talk]]) moved in Whig ci10:56, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
::Phillipson says repeatedly that Smith moved in Whig circles (p 24, 43, 56) and is explicitly called a Whig (p 72, 268) as is the ''Wealth of Nations'' (p 216) [[User:Rjensen|Rjensen]] ([[User talk:Rjensen|talk]]) 16:11, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
:::I agree with Gonefishing that it is best to put Whiggism as the ideology of the Whig party, not classical liberalism. You cannot call ''The Wealth of Nations'' a book supporting Whig views because even after its publication the Whigs opposed Pitt's scheme for freer trade with France and throughout the party's history they had not shown themselves as free traders but rather as protectionists. Smith's ideas were adopted piecemeal by a few individuals across the political spectrum (Lord North, Pitt, Burke) rather than becoming a sort of economic manifesto for one party.--[[User:Britannicus|Britannicus]] ([[User talk:Britannicus|talk]]) 17:08, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
::My apologies - I've been rather caught out there. I did not recall having read anywhere that he was a Whig, nor could I find the word's mention in the index when I checked to, apparently, be on the safe side. Nonetheless, p. 268 states that for a while he was a Tory under Pitt's leadership (who was a self-described "Independent Whig") and this just shows the differences between the two parties were not that large. If the Whigs are liberal, the Tories aren't that far from it either. [[User:Gonefishing|Gonefishing]] ([[User talk:Gonefishing|talk]]) 21:30, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

It seems like a bit of a fool's errand to try to come up with one word which is descriptive of the ideologies of such a loosely defined "party" as the Whigs. In the late seventeenth century, Whigs were the advocates of limited monarchy in the face of Stuart absolutism. In the mid eighteenth century, they were the complacent advocates of a prosperous and conservative status quo. In the early nineteenth century, they were cautious advocates of gradual reform. In the late nineteenth century, they were a conservative, aristocratic faction of a political party that had increasingly little room for or interest in them. What continuities there were were much more personal or familial than ideological. The [[William Cavendish, 1st Duke of Devonshire|First Duke of Devonshire]] was one of the men who invited William III to invade England in 1689; his descendant and heir, the [[Spencer Cavendish, 8th Duke of Devonshire|Eighth Duke]], broke with Gladstone over Irish Home Rule and led the Whigs over to the Tories. They were both Whigs in much the same way that they were both Dukes of Devonshire - whiggery was an inherited aristocratic characteristic. To be a Whig was to be a member of [[Brooks's]] and a scion of some family that played some role in the Glorious Revolution. That was what was central to being a Whig, not any ideology. [[User:John K|john k]] ([[User talk:John K|talk]]) 02:12, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

==When was liberalism invented?==
The term was invented in the 19th century and the concepts involved were invented earlier, as many scholars have said--just look at some titles about Locke: Locke, Liberalism and the Natural Law of Money" by Joyce Appleby ''Past & Present'' 1976; Western liberalism: a history in documents from Locke to Croce ed Bramsted 1978; Locke, liberalism and empire by Ivison, 2004; Nature and politics: Liberalism in the philosophies of Hobbes, Locke, and Rousseau by Rapaczynski - 1987; Launching Liberalism: On Lockean Political Philosophy by Zuckert - 2002; Traditions of Liberalism: Essays on John Locke, Adam Smith, and John Stuart Mill by Haakonssen - 1988; The Unvarnished Doctrine: Locke, Liberalism, and the American Revolution by Dworetz, 1990... It helps to read a bit more widely -- try books like ''An intellectual history of liberalism'' (2006) by French historian Pierre Manent. [[User:Rjensen|Rjensen]] ([[User talk:Rjensen|talk]]) 17:29, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
:I don't see how this is particularly helpful, given that we are talking about political history, not intellectual history. Why are we discussing Locke, Smith, and Mill as the leading Whigs? Wouldn't Walpole, or Fox, or even Hartington, be more important figures in understanding what Whiggery was as a political movement? What do the intellectual ideas of Smith and Mill, in particular, have to do with the contemporary Whig party of their time? I would suggest that Mill, in particular, shouldn't be described as a Whig at all: he was a Radical, or certainly more in line with the radical wing of the Liberal Party than with the Whiggish one. [[User:John K|john k]] ([[User talk:John K|talk]]) 02:24, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

==This article needs serious work==
I am no expert on 18th-century British politics, but the "Further Reading" exhibits huge gaps that are reflected in the text. Essential authorities on 18th and early 19th-century politics are missing (Lewis Namier, J. H. Plumb, Archibald Foord), let alone more modern scholars such as J. C. D. Clark, while marginal antiques like Keith Feiling and Britannica 1911 rule the roost. I have deleted a sentence identifying the Whigs as the Court and the Tories as the Country Party (perhaps on the authority of Britannica 1911?), because precisely the reverse was true during the 18th-century heyday of this terminology. The whole article needs a thorough going-over. [[User:Paulromney|pmr]] ([[User talk:Paulromney|talk]]) 19:48, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

== Requested move ==

<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
:''The following discussion is an archived discussion of a [[WP:requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]]. No further edits should be made to this section. ''

The result of the move request was: '''No move'''. No evidence or consensus that this is the primary topic of the term. [[User:Cuchullain|Cúchullain]] [[User talk:Cuchullain|<sup>t</sup>]]/[[Special:Contributions/Cuchullain|<small>c</small>]] 15:30, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

----

----
[[:Whig (British political party)]] → {{no redirect|Whig}} – move the dab page to [[Whig (disambiguation)]] and this page to Whig place a {{tl|other uses}} at the top of this page. The dab "(British political party)" is not needed as the other disambiguations are redirects to other articles, implying that Whig is a secondary meaning for those articles. "Whig" as a "British political party" is the primary meaning of this word. -- <small>--'''Relisted''' [[User:Tyrol5|<font color="#960018">'''Tyrol5'''</font>]] <small>[[User talk:Tyrol5|<font color="#960018">[Talk]</font>]]</small> 02:20, 18 January 2013 (UTC)</small> [[User:PBS|PBS]] ([[User talk:PBS|talk]]) 14:11, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

===Survey===
*'''Oppose''' – Perhaps [[:Whig (British political party)]] is primary in the UK, but [[:Whig Party (United States)]] is primary in the US. I am sure because many believe that "their" [[Whig Party]] is primary, there will be an ongoing problem with this title with editors linking to the disambiguation without checking the link before clicking ''Save page.'' The US party was one of the two major political parties in the US prior to the advent of Abe Lincoln's Republican Party, and [[William Henry Harrison]], [[John Tyler]], [[Zachary Taylor]] and [[Millard Fillmore]] were Whig Presidents. With this [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Summerhill,_New_York&diff=next&oldid=453899393 fairly recent edit], [[Summerhill, New York]] was linked to the disambiguation page. That's bad enough, but it would be worse if it linked to the British party. At least, with it linking to dab, there is a chance that eventually the folks who volunteer at [[Wikipedia:Disambiguation pages with links]] will eventually fix it. Summerhill isn't an isolated example either, there's also [[History of United States Prison Systems]], [[James Loch]] and [[University of Edinburgh Medical School]], among a few others. – [[User:Wbm1058|Wbm1058]] ([[User talk:Wbm1058|talk]]) 15:38, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' largely per the above. It seems to be that most political parties are diambiguated on Wikipedia. [[Democratic Party (United States)]] is probably the oldest, and most widely known, of all the democratic parties worldwide but that's still disambiguated, for example. '''[[User:Hot Stop|<span style="font-family: symbol;"><span style="color:#0d254c">Hot Stop</span></span>]] [[User talk:Hot_Stop|<span style="font-family: symbol;"><span style="color:#0d254c">(Talk)</span></span>]]''' 16:23, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
::Indeed. See [[Talk:Green Party]] for a recently closed RM that discussed disambiguation of political parties. Now if someone wants to research and write an article about the worldwide Whig parties and see if there was any commonality between the British and American Whig parties, feel free. I have no idea if there was any connection. – [[User:Wbm1058|Wbm1058]] ([[User talk:Wbm1058|talk]]) 18:14, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
*'''Strong Oppose''' why is Britain getting primacy over the US? -- [[Special:Contributions/76.65.128.43|76.65.128.43]] ([[User talk:76.65.128.43|talk]]) 23:44, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. There is no evidence provided that when people searching for "Whig", they are much more likely looking for information on the British political party than the American political party. And as Wbm1058 has stated, various American editors are wikilinking "Whig", intending to link to the article on the American party. There is reason why redirects and alternative names [[WP:D#Redirecting to a primary topic|may also be a considered]] when determining a primary topic. Also, the placing of a word or phrase in parentheses in the title of an article is primarily used as a method of [[WP:D|disambiguation]], not to denote or imply that a topic "is a secondary meaning" to a specific term. [[User:Zzyzx11|Zzyzx11]] ([[User talk:Zzyzx11|talk]]) 04:29, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. The previous commenters have laid out the argument nicely. <span style="color:orange">[[User:Andrewman327|Andrew]]<sup>[[User talk:Andrewman327|327]]</sup></span> 06:01, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. The British faction is "the Whigs", the American party is the "[[Whig Party (United States) |Whig Party]]." This distinction is not peculiar to Wikipedia, but also made by ''Britannica'' ([http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/641802/Whig-and-Tory here] and [http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/641788/Whig-Party here]), ''Columbia'' ([http://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/history/whig.html here] and [http://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/history/whig-party.html here]), as well as ''Encarta''. ''[http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Whig_party.aspx#3 The Dictionary of American History]'' gives "Whig Party," while the ''[http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Whigs.aspx#1 The Oxford Companion to British History]'' gives "Whigs." The standard history of the American party is Holt's ''[http://books.google.com.vn/books?id=hMkYklGTY1MC&dq= The Rise and Fall of the American Whig Party]'' (1999). [[User:Kauffner|Kauffner]] ([[User talk:Kauffner|talk]]) 04:52, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' – Admire someone who takes a contrary position in a building snowstorm which prompts me to take another look.
:*In [[1678]], the Tories and Whigs first form as political parties in England, later becoming the modern Conservative Party and Liberal Party
:*With both 'Whig' and 'Tory', the suffix -ism was quickly added to make [[Whiggism]] and [[Toryism]], meaning the principles and methods of each faction.
:*Wikipedia articles are inconsistently named [[Whiggism]] and [[Tory]] (not '''Toryism''')
:*Political parties practicing these isms are [[Tory (British political party)]] and [[Whig (British political party)]]
:*Does it make sense to have separate "ism" and political party articles? Or are separate articles content forks?
:*{{no redirect|Whigs}} rather than {{no redirect|Whig}}?
:*Isn't a ''Whig'' simply a member of a ''Whig party''?
:*should {{no redirect|Whig Party}} be a dab rather than a redirect to Whig?
:—[[User:Wbm1058|Wbm1058]] ([[User talk:Wbm1058|talk]]) 05:28, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
::I think you are misunderstanding what party meant in the 17th and early 18th century, a better modern usage would be faction. As in the eurosceptics within the Conservative party. Party in the 16th and 17th century was not stable as it is today a party could coalesces around an idea or person and disappear after a short time, as it was often to do with short term interests. We talk of Cavaliers but not often of a Cavalier Party, or Roundheads, but not often of a Roundhead Party, yet they were the direct forerunners of the Tories and the Whigs (see for example Green Ribbon Club the Exclusion Crises). The argument put here by some that " Whig (British political party) is primary in the UK, but Whig Party (United States)" well maybe (although I would have thought that as history was shared until the end of the War of Independence the usage before that date was the same and the article called "[[Whig Party (United States)]] was for an entity that lasted but a fraction of the time of the Whigs and as such is a relatively minor usage. Besides we are talking about article titles called "Whig" and "Whig Party" and those two articles do not need dab extensions to differentiate them. -- [[User:PBS|PBS]] ([[User talk:PBS|talk]]) 12:25, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
*'''Support a move to "Whigs"''' I started the page [[Whiggism]], wanting to deal with the political philosophy underlying what it was to be a Whig. The article now called [[Tory]] is the counterpoint to that and is plainly about [[Toryism]] (which for now redirects to "Tory"), and I would support a move of "Tory" to "Toryism". As has been said, the Whigs dealt with in this page weren't a party in the modern sense, but they weren't "British", either. Scottish and English Whigs had much in common, and they were combined in the government of [[Kingdom of Great Britain|Great Britain]] for large slices of the 18th century, but there was never a "British political party" called the "Whig Party". I am not sure that a page called "Whig" should be dedicated to the English and Scottish Whigs, but perhaps they are the primary meaning of "Whigs". I suggest moving the present "[[Whig (British political party)]]" page to "[[Whigs]]", which is the collective term, rather than "[[Whig]]", which is about an individual. For now [[Whigs]] is a redirect to [[Whig]], so the "Whigs" name has the advantage of being available. [[User:Moonraker|Moonraker]] ([[User talk:Moonraker|talk]]) 13:58, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
:*On the same logic, and for consistency, [[Tory (British political party)]] should be moved to [[Tories]], which at the moment is a redirect to [[Tory]]. [[User:Moonraker|Moonraker]] ([[User talk:Moonraker|talk]]) 06:52, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
::*That is highly biased. I see no reason for this British Imperialism for "Tories" being the British party. It should be a disambiguation page. -- [[Special:Contributions/76.65.128.43|76.65.128.43]] ([[User talk:76.65.128.43|talk]]) 14:07, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
::::As it happens, the Tories were also not really "British", and certainly not in their origins. It is not biassed to follow the standard Wikipedia practice of identifying the primary meaning of a term and using it as an article name in that sense, with a hatnote linking to a dab page. We use [[Eton College]] for the original school, [[Eton College (Vancouver)]] for the Canadian one. By the same token, "[[Blue Tory]]" and "[[Red Tory]]" do not need "Canada" to be added to them. [[User:Moonraker|Moonraker]] ([[User talk:Moonraker|talk]]) 15:23, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
:::::That is the height of bias. Some smaller college in Vancouver, as compared to the ruling Tories of Canada used as the basis to compare to the British versions? As there are no Red Tories or Blue Tories elsewhere (atleast as stated in our articles), those don't come in to this conversation. Britain is no longer the center of the English speaking world, and Wikipedia shouldn't pretend that it is. -- [[Special:Contributions/76.65.128.43|76.65.128.43]] ([[User talk:76.65.128.43|talk]]) 01:13, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
*'''Support''' This seems to be the [[WP:PTOPIC|primary topic]]. The U.S. use of the word is derived from the British. Patriots during the revolutionary war called themselves "Whigs" because they believed the Whigs were sympathetic to them. The Whig Party chose the name as a direct reference to the revolutinary patriots. [[User:The Four Deuces|TFD]] ([[User talk:The Four Deuces|talk]]) 18:50, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
*:The question of primacy is completely separate from that of derivation. Primacy is determined by what our readers are most likely looking for under that name, which, as I'm sure you know, is not always the ''original'' use of that name. [[User:LtPowers|Powers]] <sup><small><small>[[User talk:LtPowers|T]]</small></small></sup> 19:38, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
*'''Support''' British party is (1) primary (2) longer endurance - 1670s to mid 19th century. It will be sufficient to deal with others by measn of a capnote. [[User:Peterkingiron|Peterkingiron]] ([[User talk:Peterkingiron|talk]]) 16:12, 19 January 2013 (UTC)


===Discussion===
*'''See also''' [[talk:Tory#Requested move]]. [[User:Wbm1058|Wbm1058]] ([[User talk:Wbm1058|talk]]) 16:23, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
*'''See also''' [[talk:Whig Party (United States)#Requested move]] -- [[Special:Contributions/76.65.128.43|76.65.128.43]] ([[User talk:76.65.128.43|talk]]) 05:16, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a [[WP:RM|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a [[WP:move review|move review]]. No further edits should be made to this section.</div><!-- Template:RM bottom -->

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