Jump to content

Talk:HMS Sheffield (D80): Difference between revisions

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Browse history interactively
← Previous edit
Content deleted Content added
VisualWikitext
Revised draft for spelling
Cewbot (talk | contribs)
Bots
7,691,060 edits
m Maintain {{WPBS}}: 5 WikiProject templates. Keep majority rating "Start" in {{WPBS}}. Remove 4 same ratings as {{WPBS}} in {{WikiProject Ships}}, {{WikiProject South America}}, {{WikiProject British Overseas Territories}}, {{WikiProject Shipwrecks}}. Remove 5 deprecated parameters: b1, b2, b3, b4, b5.
 
(25 intermediate revisions by 14 users not shown)
Line 1: Line 1:
{{Talk header}}
{{Talk header}}
{{On this day|date1=2013-05-04|oldid1=553323876}}
{{On this day|date1=2013-05-04|oldid1=553323876|date2=2022-05-04|oldid2=1086139097}}
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=Start|1=
{{WikiProjectBannerShell|1=
{{WikiProject Military history|class=start |B1=n|B2=n|B3=n|B4=yes|B5=yes|Maritime=yes|British=yes}}
{{WikiProject Shipwrecks|importance=|class=}}
{{WikiProject Ships }}
{{WikiProject Military history|class=B|B1=yes|B2=yes|B3=yes|B4=yes|B5=yes|Maritime=yes|British=yes}}
{{WikiProject South America|importance=|Falkland Islands=yes|Falkland Islands-importance=low}}
{{WikiProject Ships|<!-- B-Class-1. It is suitably referenced, and all major points have appropriate inline citations. --> |B-Class-1=yes <!-- B-Class-2. It reasonably covers the topic, and does not contain obvious omissions or inaccuracies. --> |B-Class-2=yes <!-- B-Class-3. It has a defined structure, including a lead section and one or more sections of content. --> |B-Class-3=yes <!-- B-Class-4. It is free from major grammatical errors. --> |B-Class-4=yes <!-- B-Class-5. It contains appropriate supporting materials, such as an infobox, images, or diagrams. --> |B-Class-5=yes|class=B|importance=Mid}}
{{WikiProject South America|class=B|importance=|Falkland Islands=yes|Falkland Islands-importance=low}}
{{WikiProject British Overseas Territories|importance=mid}}
{{WikiProject British Overseas Territories|class=
{{WikiProject Shipwrecks|importance=mid}}
}}
}}
{{User:MiszaBot/config
|archiveheader = {{talkarchivenav}}
|maxarchivesize = 75K
|counter = 1
|minthreadsleft = 3
|minthreadstoarchive = 1
|algo = old(28d)
|archive = Talk:HMS Sheffield (D80)/Archive %(counter)d
}}
}}
{{British English}}
{{archives|search=yes}}


==Untitled==
==New sections==
An attempt to get a bit more structure into the article to make it an easier read. Still needs work though... - [[User:Snori|Snori]] ([[User talk:Snori|talk]]) 04:52, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
It is said there were two nuclear warhead on-board when it sank.
The Exocet missile that sunk the HMS Sheffield actually belonged to Venezuela´s arsenal. Venezuela gave the exocets to Argentina just few weeks before one of them managed to sink the Sheffield.


== Cite for synthetic clothing in uniforms ==
: Said by whom? also, France has sold exactly five Exocets to Argentina at that point, which is (plus the ship-to-ship Exocet dismounted from one of their destroyers) the number used. Peru (not Venezuela), during the conflict, requested early shipment of the Exocets they were buying, with the obvious goal of giving them to Argentina; the French didn't fufill the shipment. [[User:Toby Douglass|Toby Douglass]] 13:03, 23 June 2007 (UTC)


[https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=dU89v3hoDcQC&pg=PA554&lpg=PA554&dq=Falklands+War+synthetic+clothing+burns&source=bl&ots=0fBtAoJ3Gh&sig=ACfU3U1BkKlW99PKj9XaNI-3sPQt4uEOMw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjI17Pwmsr1AhXDiVwKHbP4AhMQ6AF6BAgDEAM#v=onepage&q=Falklands%20War%20synthetic%20clothing%20burns&f=false] I was planning to add but having problems with the tool to convert to a reference. Save for later or for any kind soul to do in the mean time. <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Wee Curry Monster|W]][[Special:contributions/Wee Curry Monster|C]][[User talk:Wee Curry Monster|M]]</span><sub>[[Special:EmailUser/Wee Curry Monster|email]]</sub> 10:54, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
: Uh-huh, so if there were two nuclear warheads on board, where's the cleanup crew? Beyond which, why would anyone put nuclear weapons on an Air Warfare Destroyer? The ship was designed to shoot down incoming planes, not to carry out nuclear attacks. About the exocets: Argentina was believed to have five exocets before the war, and fired four. So if the one that hit ''Sheffield'' was Venezuelan, what did they do with the unaccounted for missiles? [[User:Biscuit Knight|Biscuit Knight]] 11:29, 22 August 2006 (UTC)


:But it doesn't mention Sheffield explicitly. Maybe better to put this with this reference into the main Falkland War article? --[[User:Ozzy|Ozzy]] ([[User talk:Ozzy|talk]]) 12:23, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
:: The reason that one might have been there is that the WE177 nuclear weapon was deployed on RN escorts as a nuclear depth bomb for helicopters. Apparently ([[WE177#Falklands_War]]) ''Broadsword'', ''Brilliant'', ''Coventry'' and ''Sheffield'' were carrying them when they sailed south but later had them removed. [[User:Emoscopes|Emoscopes]] <sup>[[User_Talk:Emoscopes|Talk]]</sup> 02:08, 25 November 2006 (UTC)


== False-friendly fire? ==
:: Yup, British destroyers in general carried a nuclear depth charge. I don't know if they really went down to the Falklands or not though; the general idea was to unload them at Ascension Island. [[User:Toby Douglass|Toby Douglass]] 13:03, 23 June 2007 (UTC)


I vaguely remember reading that one of the problems experienced by the ''Sheffield'' was that its missile-defense systems had been programmed to ignore friendly missiles, and the Exocet, being French, was seen as "friendly" (thanks to the expected response to a Soviet attack) and not dangerous. Am I wrong in that? --[[User:Piledhigheranddeeper|Piledhigheranddeeper]] ([[User talk:Piledhigheranddeeper|talk]]) 14:24, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
:::All RN ships of the period would have had the WE177 depth bomb. However, in the case of the Falklands War, these were removed and returned to the UK aboard a RFA before the ships left Ascension Island. ''[[User:Justin_A_Kuntz|Justin]]'' <small>''[[User Talk:Justin_A_Kuntz|talk]]''</small> 10:47, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
:Yes it is nonsense, the ESM system on Sheffield, had it not been transmitting on SATCOM would have classified the Exocet as a threat. <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Wee Curry Monster|W]][[Special:contributions/Wee Curry Monster|C]][[User talk:Wee Curry Monster|M]]</span><sub>[[Special:EmailUser/Wee Curry Monster|email]]</sub> 14:55, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

By April 1982 the Argentine Navy had received directly from France 5 of their 14 AM39 Exocets (plus 5 Super Etendards) bought in 1980. After the war broke out and due the temporal embargo settled by the French against Argentina, Peru urged France to deliver their already bought AM39 but the French refused too. For the Argentine version of the facts see [http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Falklands/Exocet.html]. However, its true that the FAV (like the FAP) supplied the FAA with spare parts for their Mirage fleet and particulary long range fuel tanks to allowed the deltas operate over the islands [[User:Jor70|Jor70]] 14:24, 23 June 2007 (UTC)



== Warhead Exploded ==
I'm writing in that the warhead exploded. The crew and members of the Task Force believe the warhead exploded, I believe the Navy's official stance is that the exocet didn't explode, but there you are. If it didn't explode on impact, why didn't it explode due to extreme heat of the fire? [[User:Biscuit Knight|Biscuit Knight]] 11:29, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Because modern explosives don't detonate when subjected to heat - they just burn. If you want a missile to detonate you have to use a detonator – real world explosives don't function quite like those depicted in cartoons which detonate when struck with a comedy mallet.

I don't think the issue is quite as closed as the article would try to make out. The Navy's official stance after experts have reviewed all of the available facts is certainly worthy of note; especially when the only evidence to the contrary that is discussed in the article is the personal belief of some of the servicemen present at the time.

Somehow I don’t think justice is done to the respective weight of each of those pieces of evidence. --[[User:62.173.76.218|62.173.76.218]] 17:22, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

:Warheads of that era were not Insensitive Munitions. Subjected to an intense fire, the warhead would have exploded. Even if it initially deflagrated, it would soon transition to detonation. ''[[User:Justin_A_Kuntz|Justin]]'' <small>''[[User Talk:Justin_A_Kuntz|talk]]''</small> 10:47, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

::Exocet missiles do not explode on impact, and are designed not to. Also it is a very common misconception to assume that it does. It is also very POV and not fair to assume that this view was shared by others in the RN fleet. Indeed on GLAMORGAN it was not, and this ship was the only RN ship to be hit by an Exocet and survive. Remember 15 of the surface combatant ships in the RN task force were exocet armed, carrying the MM38/40 ship launched version of Exocet. Exocet is a fire and forget anti ship cruise missile, and fitted with a delay proximity fuse, which means that the missile detonates a short time after penetrating the ship, usually amidships with the delay fuse winding down a fraction of a second later (0.001 s) the missile penetrates the ship usually amidships. The angle at which the missile hits the ship is critical, too shallow and it will bounce off the ships side, this is why the missile's radar seeker head always looks to hit the target ship at right angles and amidships. There is also an arming circuit which arms the warhead in flight priming the warhea for detonation, and such safety features are present within missiles, torpedoes and air dropped bombs. If as has been stated the missile was launched from 6 miles then the missile would not arm, so detonation of the warhead does not ocurr. Looking at all the information there were 5 salvage examinations of Sheffield in the 6 days from when she was abandoned to when she sank, due to rough seas when she was under tow, and water ingressing through the gash in her starboard side. Visually after all the fires had died down there is too much superstructure in place in the vicinity of where the missle hit to reliably confirm that detonation of the high explosive fragmentation warhead occurred. It is reported that the missile broke up on entry into the ship, in part due to the angle it hit the starboard side (30-45 degrees) and the topology of the ship at the location of the hit, with the bulk of the casualties in the galley and computer room. It was the due to the amount of burning propellant and the severed diesel line that caused the smoke and associated fires that were to cause abandoning the ship some 4 hours later. It is worth reading the Board of Inquiry Report as there are certain facts mentioned in it. [[User:Aquizard|Aquizard]] 13:45, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

A technical re-analysis by the MOD of the loss of the SHEFFIELD was presented to the RINA Warship Conference in june 2015. The conclusion drawn was that the warhead did detonate. The conclusion of the original Board of Inquiry was discussed in the paper, in particular the evidence that they used to draw the original conclusion (which was based predominantly on the damage caused by Exocet to HMS UNDAUNTED in trials in the 1970s). The paper discussed the differences in size, design and quality of construction of UNDAUNTED and SHEFFIELD, and also considered evidence from trials and action damage that occured in various ships after the BOI was published (e.g. HARDY, STARK) and showed how that evidence alone would have produced a different conclusion. <small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/62.237.32.34|62.237.32.34]] ([[User talk:62.237.32.34|talk]]) 06:03, 13 November 2015 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:[http://www.rina.org.uk/hres/War2015%20Programme.pdf] I presume you mean this conference? Do you have a copy of the paper? Depending on the status of the individual concerned it may be appropriate to add a note that in the opinion of this author the warhead detonated. However, it would be inappropriate given the variation in opinion to state it as an undisputed fact. The original Exocet warhead design proved to be a problem with a number failing to detonate. <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Wee Curry Monster|W]][[Special:contributions/Wee Curry Monster|C]][[User talk:Wee Curry Monster|M]]</span><sub>[[Special:EmailUser/Wee Curry Monster|email]]</sub> 12:43, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

I've seen a copy of the paper. The author heads up the MOD survivability team and the detailed analysis was carried out by the QinetiQ vulnerability assessment experts using state of the art analysis codes. <small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/82.83.137.132|82.83.137.132]] ([[User talk:82.83.137.132|talk]]) 05:25, 1 March 2016 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Aluminium Hull ==
I have heard conflicting reports about the hull of the Sheffield, and I am curious as to what weight the citation (reference number 3) carries. What is the evidence that the superstructure was steel? <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[Special:Contributions/81.178.78.204|81.178.78.204]] ([[User talk:81.178.78.204|talk]]) 17:57, 29 January 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->

:Type 42 was all steel construction, the Type 21 was the only RN ship to have an Aluminium superstructure. ''[[User:Justin_A_Kuntz|Justin]]'' <small>''[[User Talk:Justin_A_Kuntz|talk]]''</small> 10:47, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

==Contradiction==
The British version suggests a single missile launched at 6 miles. The Argentine version here suggests mutliple missiles launched at a far greater distance. [[User:Emoscopes|Emoscopes]] <sup>[[User_Talk:Emoscopes|Talk]]</sup> 19:50, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
:Seems to me that the article do not contradict itself due both claims are in different sections and reflect the differents points of view [[User:Jor70|Jor70]] 21:14, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
::I would suggest that the article needs to be redrafted accordingly if these are both the official accounts. [[User:Emoscopes|Emoscopes]] <sup>[[User_Talk:Emoscopes|Talk]]</sup> 21:58, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
:::Have you any suggestion ? [[User:Jor70|Jor70]] 01:28, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

::::Not sure why the British version indicates a single launch. Two were launched, one was seduced by chaff, the other hit Sheffield. This is all well known. ''[[User:Justin_A_Kuntz|Justin]]'' <small>''[[User Talk:Justin_A_Kuntz|talk]]''</small> 10:47, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

::::Thought so, the official British report describes a second missile splashing into the sea 1/2 mile in front of Sheffield.

http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/FFD53355-BDCD-437F-BD58-6681867E44BA/0/phase2_part2_analysis_of_attach_and_response.pdf <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Justin A Kuntz|Justin A Kuntz]] ([[User talk:Justin A Kuntz|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Justin A Kuntz|contribs]]) 10:53, 22 September 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

On this subject, I can recommend Martin Middlebrook's account, initially published as ''Operation Corporate'' and then in a revised edition as ''Task Force''. The author used both British and Argentinian sources and it seems a well-balanced, well-researched account.

According to Middlebrook, two Argentine aircaft each released a single Exocet at 11.04 local time. The first Task Force awareness of the danger began when Able Seaman Rose, radar operator on ''Glasgow'', identified Super Etendard emissions. ''Glasgow'' had a fleeting radar identification on the aircraft. ''Sheffield'' did not detect the attack because it coincided with some routine SCOT transmissions. The flight time of the Exocets was less than two minutes, and the missile heading for ''Sheffield'' was, in any case, too low to be picked up on radar. There was not even enough time for a warning to be broadcast.

As Middlebrook puts it, "the exact path taken by the second Exocet is not known but two ships protecting the main group, ''Yarmouth'' and ''Glamorgan'', reported that they had seen or detected a missile". It would appear, then, that two missiles were launched, and that, as Middlebrook puts it, "it can be assumed that the second Exocet ran out of fuel and fell harmlessly into the sea, but it had probably approached the western edge of the main group of ships. If this is true, then the Argentine pilots had not pressed home their attacks hard enough".

As a footnote, here's a quotation from ''Yarmouth'''s daily orders the following day:

"The Argentinian missile that passed ''Yarmouth'' was on a training mission and has returned safely to base"
--[[User:Vvmodel|Vvmodel]] ([[User talk:Vvmodel|talk]]) 17:06, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

==Doubt==
Will be nice to hear (read) opinions on why the British reported her sunk so quickly on May 4 when its actually sank on May 10. Also the Argentines have no other way to know of the effectiveness of the super etendard/exocet strikes. The system was still being studied (5 of the 14 planes were arrived) without the french technicians help and its not success could led to the airplanes being grounded. --[[User:Jor70|Jor70]] 04:15, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

In the past it was said that the ship was scuttled (deliberately sunk) rather than as stated here flooding due to high seas, while in tow. I think this is worthy of clarification. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/81.178.176.249|81.178.176.249]] ([[User talk:81.178.176.249|talk]]) 09:22, 29 August 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:In many ways the British didn't control the media and information well. Announcing every scratch provided instant Battle Damage Assessment to the Argentine military, also some things were just plain stupid like telling the Argentine Air Force they were hitting the ships but the bombs weren't going off due to incorrect fuze settings (and the correct tactics to use). Why did they report it so quickly? Well there was 20 next of kin to inform and that story wasn't going to stay buried for long, in the long run honest reporting worked in the British favour. The British media's neutral reporting came to be readily believed, whilst the fanciful stories appearing in the Argentine media destroyed any credibility. An example of this is the continued claim to have hit or even sunk HMS Invincible. It never happened, yet the Argentine Navy to this day claims that it did. Just my opinion. ''[[User:Justin_A_Kuntz|Justin]]'' <small>''[[User Talk:Justin_A_Kuntz|talk]]''</small> 10:47, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

An Argentinian submarine claimed to have hit Invincible with a torpedo which failed to explode and according to a British newspaper at the time the Argentinians carried out an enquiry. I don't believe this was denied by the British though as prime target, Invincible was well defended.

This is quite different from bombs not exploding. Bombs were dropped at very low height so the aircraft could fly under the Type 42's Sea Dart defence and are designed NOT to explode near the aircraft. The Type 42 was an anti aircraft ship intended to provide an area defence for the fleet against long range relatively large air or sea targets. Sea Wolf, which it didn't carry, was a close range point defence system designed to deal automatically with nearby missiles or aircraft attacking own ship. Of course, an anti aircraft ship needs both types of defence.
Whilst dud bombs helped morale, the British would have been delighted if Argentinian aircraft subsequently flew a little higher!

[[User:JRPG|JRPG]] 10:35, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

:Dud bombs were caused by the aircraft flying too low and the armourers incorrectly setting the fuze. The BBC actually broadcast the error in Argentine Air Force tactics and subsequently they became more effective. The difference in altitude wouldn't have made a Sea Dart engagement possible, 1. the aircraft is within minimum range and 2. Still way too low. However, I'm sure that the British would have been delighted if the FAA had assumed it was just propaganda and carried on the same way but they didn't.

:[[ARA San Luis]] did carry out a patrol near the task force and did attempt to launch torpedoes twice. All malfunctioned. There is no recorded attack on the Invincible and no sign of damage from a dud torpedo either but the attempted attacks on two warships tie with British records. The British admitted to every scratch received, sorry but there was no attempt to torpedo the Invincible just more propaganda. ''[[User:Justin_A_Kuntz|Justin]]'' <small>''[[User Talk:Justin_A_Kuntz|talk]]''</small> 10:49, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

It was not entirely British media fault telling the FAA about the wrong fuses. The same pilots realized about this ( planes attacked in groups so they saw each other ) and the FAA did great efforts to replace them something they achieved late may/june via Spain and yes the military gov manipulated the media and really misinform during the war (pucaras bombing hermes,etc) unfortunately leading to judge beforehand Argentine post war publications. --[[User:Jor70|Jor70]] ([[User talk:Jor70|talk]]) 20:54, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Re the Argentine "torpedoing" of ''Invincible'', a clearly-fabricated photograph was published showing the ship in flames. This has been widely used in the Royal Navy as a damage control poster, with the caption "Damage control saved ''Invincible''" --[[User:Vvmodel|Vvmodel]] ([[User talk:Vvmodel|talk]]) 20:31, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

More RE Argentina Torpedo & Invincible. I recall a British ship- perhaps Invincible had their towed torpedo countermeasure/ decoy ([[AN/SLQ-25_Nixie|Nixie]]) blown up by an Argentinian torpedo.
[[User:Wfoj2|Wfoj2]] ([[User talk:Wfoj2|talk]]) 02:50, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

== New Commons image ==
[[Image:HMSSheffieldhit.jpg|thumb|300px]]

:Really? that looks suspiciously <u>identical</u> to the MoD images, which are crown copyright... ([http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/server/show/ConMediaFile.25062 see here]) [[User:Emoscopes|Emoscopes]] <sup>[[User_Talk:Emoscopes|Talk]]</sup> 20:09, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

==British Version==
I'm under the impression the Sheffield did NOT detect the Exocet because she was using her satellite comms gear at the time; a design flaw meant she couldn't use satellite comms and radar concurrently.

[[User:Toby Douglass|Toby Douglass]] 12:58, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

:Indeed correct. ''[[User:Justin_A_Kuntz|Justin]]'' <small>''[[User Talk:Justin_A_Kuntz|talk]]''</small> 10:47, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

The Horizon(?) documentary on the Sheffield also said she couldn't use both satellite and 965 but didn't say why. However a sea skimming missile is too small and fast to be seen by a 965 in sea clutter though one would hope to see the Super Etendards -or detect via ESM any radar switched on post launch when missiles look for their target. The Navy expected to operate against Warsaw pact forces and it is possible that anti-missile counter measures available to the task force in the very early days didn't respond to a 'friendly' weapon system! [[User:JRPG|JRPG]] 20:42, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

:Partially correct. The Type 965 should have been able to pick out a sea skimmer as it came over the radar horizon but its weapon system was not capable of engaging it. The only system capable of doing so was the Sea Wolf, which was designed to engage such targets. Also part of the problem was that RN doctrine was prejudiced against automatic systems and the only chance Sheffield really had was to launch Chaff promptly to seduce the missile away. An automatic system could have done this but the system on Sheffield required manual intervention to launch Chaff rockets. With seconds to react there is little chance it would have worked.

:All academic anyway because the Satcom and Type 965 had EMC problems and couldn't be used together. At the time of the attack Sheffield was using Satcom and the radar was switched off in stand by mode. Sheffield never saw it coming.

:Anyways there is also the question if the Chaff could've helped anyways. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:AllStarZ|AllStarZ]] ([[User talk:AllStarZ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/AllStarZ|contribs]]) 03:59, 11 January 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::Guys, when using SATCOM on a 42 back in 1982 it did not affect radar one bit! What it did do is mask the signals on the UAA1 display (Electronic Warfare ESM). It made Sheffield 'deaf' not blind. Again, when using SATCOM the radars on the Type 42 were NOT affected. UAA1 would have alerted the lads that (i) Someone in a SuE has popped up and is looking at you...down that bearing. (ii) An Exocet radar is radiating down that bearing. 'Heads up guys, turn towards, launch chaff'...and pray.[[User:Griffiths911|Griffiths911]] ([[User talk:Griffiths911|talk]]) 13:05, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

:::The ''[[Horizon (BBC TV series)|Horizon]]'' documentary was; ''In the Wake of HMS Sheffield'' and it was aired in 1986. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/2.24.216.183|2.24.216.183]] ([[User talk:2.24.216.183|talk]]) 08:47, 8 June 2014 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Argentine and British Versions ==

Can anyone tell me why there is two versions, as the facts are essentially in agreement?

: As noted above, why are there "two" versions, the facts are essentially in agreement. ''[[User:Justin_A_Kuntz|Justin]]'' <small>''[[User Talk:Justin_A_Kuntz|talk]]''</small> 14:14, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

::Yea I think we should just merge them, the only disputed thing in the sinking of HMS Sheffield, was did the Exocet explode? Which is kind of irrelevant as, an anti-ship missle hit a ship and it sunk. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Ryan4314|Ryan4314]] ([[User talk:Ryan4314|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Ryan4314|contribs]]) 08:30, 19 December 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:::Wow look it's nearly been a year to the day that I gave support for getting rid of the versions! Dammit, after I've finished my article on XX377 and the signatory list the CCWC, then I'll do it lol. [[User:Ryan4314|<strong><font color="Black">Ryan</font><font color="CornflowerBlue">4314</font></strong>]] ([[User talk:Ryan4314|talk]]) 15:21, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

== Always Look on the Bright Side of Life ==
Currently the article says; ''After the ship was struck, her crew, waiting to be rescued, sang "Always Look on the Bright Side of Life" from Monty Python's Life of Brian.''<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.icons.org.uk/nom/nominations/always-look-on-the-bright-side-of-life|title=Icons of England, "Always Look on the Bright Side of Life"}}</ref>

However it's source actually says; ''This song was sung at Graham Chapman's funeral and by British sailors forming a bucket chain on the HMS Sheffield.''

I thought it was Coventry's crew who sang this in the lifeboats? LOL not that it's an exclusive tune of course, and the Type 42 community is pretty tight, so word of this event could've definitely made it to Coventry. Basically I wanna change the text in this article to reflect the source accurately, however I reckon the source is probably mistaken. I guess for a non-military site it's an easy mistake to make, both are type 42's, doing the same job, in the same war, together. Anyone know of any other sources to back this one up? [[User:Ryan4314|Ryan4314]] 19:51, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

:I believe that this song was actually sung by survivors from HMS ''Antelope''. See ''Task Force'' by Martin Middlebrook, in which a witness is cited on this. p234-235. --[[User:Vvmodel|Vvmodel]] ([[User talk:Vvmodel|talk]]) 13:32, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

::I think you'll find that on several occasions during the war British forces sang this song. ''[[User:Justin_A_Kuntz|Justin]]'' <small>''[[User Talk:Justin_A_Kuntz|talk]]''</small> 14:00, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

:::Yes, since I posted this question, I have done some looking into it. I believe lots of the British forces sung the song. [[User:Ryan4314|Ryan4314]] ([[User talk:Ryan4314|talk]]) 14:38, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

::::I can honestly report to you that that is the correct song that was sung when the ship sank, and my sources for this is that my father is Clive Carrington-Wood and after finding this article and the speculation behind this i asked him personally.

== Range at Launch of Exocets ==

The official MoD report at page 2 indicates that the Super Etendards turned approximately 15 miles from Sheffield. Typically you'd only turn after missile launch, so the point blank comment appears to be BS. At least 15-20 miles seems more appropriate. ''[[User:Justin_A_Kuntz|Justin]]'' <small>''[[User Talk:Justin_A_Kuntz|talk]]''</small> 00:22, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Hi, my names Paul Foster, I was the "992" operator on board the Sheffield on the day of the attack. All of this talk about Sheffield not detecting the attack is wrong. Yes the main RADAR was down but"992" was still operating, Myself and my fellow Air defence operator picked up two contacts at about twenty miles. We had time to generate a track label and raise the contact with the CPRI of the ops room. He came over looked and then went away, soon after generating the track labels one of the contacts turned away and the second continued towards us. We still had time to hand over the track to the gun control team who took over the management of the track up until impact,so to say we only had a minute between visual identification and impact is a lie. As to total loss of power this is also inaccurate as the ship continued to make way through the water for some time, if you look at the photos available you can see the ships Gemini(rubber boat) under power with a crew trying to firefight into the gash from the sea. Although firemain was lost almost immediately power remained on in some sections of the ship for some time as whilst I was gathering up fire extinguishers from my mess deck the lights were still on and this was some two hours after the initial impact. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/86.143.210.156|86.143.210.156]] ([[User talk:86.143.210.156|talk]]) 22:15, 3 September 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

Thanks, Paul, this is fascinating, and accords with the "scuttlebut" that I have picked up (you are obviously in a position to know vastly more about this than me). Any comments on (a) single firemain, (b) CO, (c) firefighting masks - number and duration (I understand 9, 20 mins duration, hopelessly inadequate if true), (d) combustible materials, i.e. mattresses, wiring, work surfaces (latter were formica and turned into sharpnel under heat, I understand) (e) damage control?--[[User:Vvmodel|Vvmodel]] ([[User talk:Vvmodel|talk]]) 22:45, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Indeed pilot interviews confirm that the exocets were released (launched) at 20 nmiles at a target or radar echo seen on the Agave radar screen in the SuE. There are technical reasons why a launch 6 nmiles would not result in a hit on the Sheffield. However it is fair to say that the incoming missiles were sighted at 6 nmiles. Remember one missile was seen ditching into the sea as it ran out of propellant. This infers that the missiles were launched at their maximum range possible. [[User:Aquizard|Aquizard]] ([[User talk:Aquizard|talk]]) 21:00, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

==Explosion during construction==

There was an accident during construction (1970/1971?) involving an oxygen explosion killing four (?) men and damaging the side of the hull leading to the back section being rebuilt, can anyone find a source for this? It is maybe classified? It may have been on 2 May [[Special:Contributions/89.107.6.31|89.107.6.31]] ([[User talk:89.107.6.31|talk]]) 20:58, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
:Not the Sheffield, that was another Type 42 and it was in Swan Hunters, Newcastle not Barrow. Its not classified. ''[[User:Justin_A_Kuntz|Justin]]'' <small>''[[User Talk:Justin_A_Kuntz|talk]]''</small> 21:03, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

It must be another one which is similar. The wing tanks were blown out, certainly Barrow and certainly the Sheffield. Had to build a new aft. It was around midnight, I remember clearly because I was there. It was well reported in regional news if anyone has the patience to research it. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/89.107.6.31|89.107.6.31]] ([[User talk:89.107.6.31|talk]]) 22:07, 31 August 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:[http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1971/may/04/royal-navy] mentioned in Hansard, it was May 1971. Find a source for you [http://publishing.yudu.com/A9cr/navynewsapril/resources/7.htm?skipFlashCheck=true], Navy News 2007. ''[[User:Justin_A_Kuntz|Justin]]'' <small>''[[User Talk:Justin_A_Kuntz|talk]]''</small> 22:28, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/213.137.6.159|213.137.6.159]] ([[User talk:213.137.6.159|talk]]) 11:30, 14 September 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Depth ==

How deep is it where she lies? --[[Special:Contributions/130.83.161.89|130.83.161.89]] ([[User talk:130.83.161.89|talk]]) 12:32, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

== Criticism of pilots who sunk the Sheffield. ==

I remember this incident from the news when it occurred. I seem to recall both the U.K. and the U.S. governments criticizing the pilots for engaging a target that couldn't defend itself, even though it was a legitimate target. Later in life while in the U.S. Army, I discussed this with an Argentine First Sergeant while we were part of Cabañas '97. He was a veteran of the Falklands War and he informed me that the pilots gave warning passes before engaging. Does anyone else remember or know of this? [[User:Solri89|Solri89]] ([[User talk:Solri89|talk]]) 19:24, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
: Needs a reliable secondary source. Hopefully there's an Argentinian version of the event written in a scholarly journal, article or book to corroborate yours and that sergeant's memory. Unfortunately, primary sources such as you or the sergeant are not acceptable because you would come under the heading of original research. [[User:Llammakey|Llammakey]] ([[User talk:Llammakey|talk]]) 19:38, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

Umm, can anyone tell me why this "icons of england" link is beneath my post and how to get rid of it? Because I didn't put it there. [[User:Solri89|Solri89]] ([[User talk:Solri89|talk]]) 19:30, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
: It's a reference from further up the page. The Wiki places all cited materials at the bottom of the page automatically. [[User:Llammakey|Llammakey]] ([[User talk:Llammakey|talk]]) 19:35, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
::I would say its nonsense. UK didn't criticise the pilots and if the pilots had made a warning pass they'd have been blown out of the sky. The pilots made a text book attack, fair play to them, they were professionals doing what they were trained to do. The British only had praise for the bravery of the Argentine pilots. <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Wee Curry Monster|W]][[Special:contributions/Wee Curry Monster|C]][[User talk:Wee Curry Monster|M]]</span><sub>[[Special:EmailUser/Wee Curry Monster|email]]</sub> 19:40, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I realize that and looked around the Internet for the answer to no avail. That's why I asked. Thanks about that link info though, it was driving me bonkers. [[User:Solri89|Solri89]] ([[User talk:Solri89|talk]]) 19:43, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

You are probably correct. I was only 10 y/o when it happened. Even though I was only 10 (if my memory is correct, which I'm sure it's wrong in some manner... as in maybe it was Peter Jenning's opinion) it seemed more like they were (whoever they may have been, if there was a "they") using the sinking as anti Argentina propaganda. (I do, without a doubt remember thinking that) Nevertheless, about the warning pass(es), if they could've blown them out of the sky, then why didn't they? The article says their radar was screwed up. If so, a pass could have been possible. I am in no way saying I or the First Sergeant were correct, but let's not dismiss it quite yet until it can be verified either way. I was hoping this article would answer my questions. Does anyone have actual verifiable information either way? Cuz I cannot confirm nor deny after a search. [[User:Solri89|Solri89]] ([[User talk:Solri89|talk]]) 20:12, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

Hmm, I apologize. I did not know that two type 42's were sunk. The other being the HMS Coventry. Regardless, if my little kid memory was correct and the First Sergeant was correct, it concerned one of these ships. Actually, maybe it was a whole different class of ship. My little kid memory did recall it was some sort of troop transport but after my original search I only found the Sheffield as the only ship being sunk. Someone, anyone know? [[User:Solri89|Solri89]] ([[User talk:Solri89|talk]]) 20:33, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

:Both the Argentine and British version of events corroborate one another. The two Super Etendard launched their weapons at extreme range, where the launch aircraft was below the radar horizon. There is an excellent documentary out there, produced by the BBC called "In the wake of HMS Sheffield", it explains the way the pilots flew their aircaft to avoid detection. They didn't overfly the Sheffield and absence of evidence either for or against your theory is not significant. <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Wee Curry Monster|W]][[Special:contributions/Wee Curry Monster|C]][[User talk:Wee Curry Monster|M]]</span><sub>[[Special:EmailUser/Wee Curry Monster|email]]</sub> 20:46, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

I give up! My original search query was "U.K. ships sunk during Falklands War". Now after another search I found six were sunk! My next search will probably show ten! I'm moving this question to the Falklands War page. Unless someone can help me here, which I would definitely appreciate, I'll be there. I will check back here later though. Thanks all. [[User:Solri89|Solri89]] ([[User talk:Solri89|talk]]) 20:48, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

Mr. WCM, you, while providing very useful information, of which I appreciate, don't seem to realize I am NOT trying to get some sort of consensus to change this page. I am merely discussing this article in an attempt to answer a question I've had for quite a very long time. I realize now, thanks to everyone's input -including yours- that I probably have the wrong ship (If my little kid memory is even remembering this possible incident correctly). I'm not putting a theory out there. Please review my posts again if you were confused. [[User:Solri89|Solri89]] ([[User talk:Solri89|talk]]) 20:59, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

I would also add that when the pilots were interviewed (and these are on YouTube) they state that once they had fired their missiles, they returned back to low level and set a course back to their base. Solri89 this is one of those invented stories that is ill thought out and does not match up to what actually happened. I too have heard other stories like the one where all the exocets were removed off the RN exocet armed warships. When the individual was challenged, it was because some army officer said so. Complete rubbish as a number of RN ships were on exercise off Gibraltar and ordered southwards. No facilities at Ascention Island as it was an open anchorage. the RN exocet armed ships came back to the UK with their exocets, as none were fired.
[[User:Aquizard|Aquizard]] ([[User talk:Aquizard|talk]]) 14:30, 03 March 2016 (UTC)

== [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Augusto Bedacarratz ]] ==

FYI. [[User:Andy Dingley|Andy Dingley]] ([[User talk:Andy Dingley|talk]]) 19:19, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

== Possibly the worst warship article on wikipedia a purely incompetent and political effort to protect the reputation of the RN and Labour and Conservative Governments ==

HMS Sheffield had been sea for more than a year, with little crew renewal. The Captain Sam Salt seems not to have taken command of the ship or situation and the crew was never properly prepared or conditioned for combat. In the South Atlantic the destroyer was probably not fightable as the first two T42s Sheffield and Birmingham had particularly cramped and ill designed operations room, where efficiency could not be maintained over 24 hr manning in rough southern seas. Nevertheless at the time of the Exocet strike, it appears the missile decoy system was not loaded with chaff decoys, the 4.5 gun may not have been functional or ready to fire and that screens in the op room were unmanned, that the communication, radar and date flow into the ship was not operating due to crew on UHF phone lines to family in the UK and an alternative flow of date from Hermes less capable but higher mounted 965M was not getting through, due to empty desks and other date overload.
Other Type 42 Captains Hart Dyke in Coventry and the Captain of officers on HMS Glasgow were much more prepared, and responded instantaneous on the ESM detection of handbrake/ Exocet- in Sheffield crew reception, interpretation/ intergration and physical response to move/load and fire decoys and operate electronic jammers have all failed. The operations room crew then failed to appreciate the likely total loss of power and systems and immediate need to vacate the operations room, which war experience suggested was the most dangerous area on a T42.
In terms of the other issues raised, two Exocets were fired at Sheffield; British frigates and destroyers were wired for NDB preparation from 1969, but carriage other than in Carriers and Cruisers was probably rare, until the the harder line Thatcher Government took office and appointed Lord Carrington MOD. They would have been transferred back to HMS Hermes and support ships which magazines were more shielded furthur from the immediate combat. Presumably the reasons would have been political, diplomatic and to avoid local initiative.
965 Radar was not an interim fit, HMS Sheffield had carried it since 1974 and while most Captains saw it as slow and obsolete giving poor coverage of low level targets and those appearing over land it replacement was as much due to its interference with British TV reception, as the priority for upgrade. The single beadstead 965M of Hermes which Sheffield was relying for date feed at the time of the Exocet strike was much inferior to the double array carried by Sheffield in 1974-1982 which is 280 mile range, cf 200 and track with 7 radar waves cutting thru the air rather than 3 radar waves the single sets on Hermes and frigates.
There are reports that during the trip south HMS Sheffield extensively worked up with HMS Brilliant under the command of Captain John Coward and the crew of Sheffield, even more than Brillant's, were shocked by the aggressive and realistic exercises run by the Captain and officers of Brillant which were being conducted in full anticipation of lethal combat. Such things tend not to be popular with ordinary men and Commonwealth ratings. Thirty three yeas after the Royal Navy, last experienced unlimited combat in the Yangtze and off Korea the surviving officers and crew of HMS Sheffield were deeply shocked by this return to battle. RFFM <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/210.48.175.44|210.48.175.44]] ([[User talk:210.48.175.44|talk]]) 02:36, 4 July 2016 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

Latest revision as of 05:28, 15 February 2024

New sections

[edit]

An attempt to get a bit more structure into the article to make it an easier read. Still needs work though... - Snori (talk) 04:52, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Cite for synthetic clothing in uniforms

[edit]

[1] I was planning to add but having problems with the tool to convert to a reference. Save for later or for any kind soul to do in the mean time. WCMemail 10:54, 24 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

But it doesn't mention Sheffield explicitly. Maybe better to put this with this reference into the main Falkland War article? --Ozzy (talk) 12:23, 3 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

False-friendly fire?

[edit]

I vaguely remember reading that one of the problems experienced by the Sheffield was that its missile-defense systems had been programmed to ignore friendly missiles, and the Exocet, being French, was seen as "friendly" (thanks to the expected response to a Soviet attack) and not dangerous. Am I wrong in that? --Piledhigheranddeeper (talk) 14:24, 4 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes it is nonsense, the ESM system on Sheffield, had it not been transmitting on SATCOM would have classified the Exocet as a threat. WCMemail 14:55, 4 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:HMS_Sheffield_(D80)&oldid=1207584772"