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== Nationality ==


Is it correct to describe him as American when the United States didn't exist during his lifetime?[[User:Tigerboy1966|<span style="color:black; background:orange; font-family:papyrus;">'''&nbsp;Tigerboy1966&nbsp;'''</span>]] 20:43, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
==Untitled==
SPRING CLEANING:
Just to give everybody the head up, I embarked on a clean-up mission for this talk page. It had basically fallen almost totally silent the last year or so, and the most recent requests have all been fulfilled. Also, I have a...
PROPOSAL TO REMOVE:
Since we're doing spring cleaning, are there objections to deleting the "Requested move" section? The thread has been dead since 2007--long enough to move on. Anybody else agree that we don't need this section anymore? The Edwards page is looking really solid, so I figured it was time to clean the slate for future work on editing/emphasis rather than old and bygone threads.
[[User:Jim37hike|Jim37hike]] ([[User talk:Jim37hike|talk]]) 06:16, 15 May 2012 (UTC)


== External links modified ==
==Requested move==
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:polltop -->
:''The following discussion is an archived discussion of the {{{type|proposal}}}. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</font> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. ''


Hello fellow Wikipedians,
[[Jonathan Edwards (theologian)]] → [[Jonathan Edwards]] — This should be the primary page rather than one among several on the [[Jonathan Edwards (disambiguation)|disambig page]] since nearly all the [[Special:Whatlinkshere/Jonathan_Edwards_%28disambiguation%29|links to the disambig page]] should go to this one. Cf. [[WP:DISAMBIG#Primary_topic]]. —[[User:Flex|Fl<font color="green">e</font>x]] ([[User_talk:Flex|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Flex|contribs]]) 17:36, 7 November 2007 (UTC)


I have just modified one external link on [[Jonathan Edwards (theologian)]]. Please take a moment to review [[special:diff/812781858|my edit]]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes:
===Survey===
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20051025043345/http://www.csustan.edu/english/reuben/pal/chap2/edwards.html to http://www.csustan.edu/english/reuben/pal/chap2/edwards.html
:''Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with'' <code><nowiki>*'''Support'''</nowiki></code> ''or'' <code><nowiki>*'''Oppose'''</nowiki></code>'', then sign your comment with'' <code><nowiki>~~~~</nowiki></code>''. Since [[Wikipedia:Polling is not a substitute for discussion|polling is not a substitute for discussion]], please explain your reasons, taking into account [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions|Wikipedia's naming conventions]].''


When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
*<s>'''Support''' per my reasoning above.</s> --[[User:Flex|Fl<font color="green">e</font>x]] ([[User_talk:Flex|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Flex|contribs]]) 17:39, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per above. --[[User:Brian0324|Brian0324]] 18:17, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
*'''Support''' It would be just as ridiculous to have "Thomas Jefferson (president)."--[[User:John Foxe|John Foxe]] 19:57, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
*'''Support''' (although [[Jonathan Edwards (President)]] has its points ;> [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] <small>[[User talk:Pmanderson|PMAnderson]]</small> 21:14, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
*'''Support'''; seems reasonable (the others seem to be of significantly lower notability). I can make the switch after a few days if there isn't any objection. --[[User:Spangineer|Spangineer]]<sup>[[:wikisource:User:Spangineer|ws]]</sup>&nbsp;<small><font color="brown">[[User talk:Spangineer|(háblame)]]</font></small> 23:16, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' - when I originaly moved the page it was because in different areas of the English speaking world different Johnathon Edwards' are more and less well known. In the U.S. the [[Jonathan Edwards (theologian)|Jonathan Edwards]] might well be the most notable. However in the U.K. there is a very good chance that most people will be searching for the [[Jonathan Edwards (athlete)|Jonathan Edwards]] the Gold medal Winning Olympian, former World Champion, Current World Record Holder and Televison presenter. When I type "Jonathan Edwards" into Google the first two results I get are [http://www.soon.org.uk/page41.htm] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Edwards_(athlete)]. Also bare in mind that athletics is a much bigger sport (in terms of media coverage, public support) in the U.K. and other parts of the commonwealth than it is in America.[[[[User:Guest9999|Guest9999]] 01:31, 8 November 2007 (UTC)]]
**You have a fair point that the more contemporary Edwards may have greater recognition among the general populace in England, but when I [http://www.google.com/search?q=Jonathan+Edwards google for Jonathan Edwards], all the links and "related searches" on the first page are to the theologian, save one, which goes to the musician. Add to that that there are far more biographies, scholarly articles and books, encyclopedia entries, mentions in reliable sources (cf. [http://query.nytimes.com/search/query?query=%22Jonathan+Edwards%22&srchst=nyt], [http://query.nytimes.com/search/query?query=%22Jonathan+Edwards%22&srchst=p#], [http://www.economist.com/search/search.cfm?rv=2&qr=%22Jonathan+Edwards%22&area=1&x=0&y=0], but not [http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sitesearch.do?query=%27Jonathan+Edwards%27&hitsperpage=10&jumpToPrevious=0&mode=SIMPLE&nextOffset=0&offset=0&leftStartIndex=1&leftEndIndex=10&jumpToPrevious=0&mode=SIMPLE&submitStatus=searchFormSubmitted&sectionId=674&x=0&y=0]), etc., not to mention a college and chair at one of America's and the world's top-tier Universities (Yale) named for the theologian -- all of which seem to be one reliable indicator of priority. Besides, the vast majority of the links to any of the WP's Jonathan Edwards (and particularly those going to [[Jonathan Edwards]]) intend to point to the theologian, which is the criterion explicitly mentioned in [[WP:DISAMBIG#Primary_topic]]. In short, the athlete is of interest mainly in Britain and has relatively few Wikipedia links, whereas the theologian is of world-wide scholarly and Christian interest and has many, many internal links. Until the athlete gains more internal links, I think the primary page should be the theologian with a link to the disambig page, of course. We could make it say something like "For the British athlete, see [[Jonathan Edwards (athlete)]], and for other uses see [[Jonathan Edwards (disambiguation)]]." --[[User:Flex|Fl<font color="green">e</font>x]] ([[User_talk:Flex|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Flex|contribs]]) 03:54, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
***'''Response''' It is also worthwhile using [http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=%22Jonathan+Edwards%22&meta= Google UK], and that has, on the first page, a number of news articles[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=435374&in_page_id=1770][http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/more_sport/athletics/article1991114.ece] on the athlete. I think the appeal to the "world-wide" significance of the theologian is a bit weak, since we haven't seen any evidence of him being well-known in non-English-speaking countries. [[User:StAnselm|StAnselm]] 02:55, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
*<s>'''Support'''</s> It is clear that the only real candidates for primary meaning are the Theologian and the Athlete. I checked the Google Books results - none of the top 100 were about the Athlete. I checked Google Scholar - again nothing on the Athlete. Google news is split between the Theologian, the Athlete, two other athletes, and Jonathan Edwards the new director general of [[MI5]]. Checking google web, the top 100 is clearly dominated by the Theologian; the athlete shows up about 6 times, with the highest two at 12 and 15 - having been beaten out by the musician (2 sites) and a winery (one site). Encyclopedia Brittanica clearly considers the theologian to be the primary topic; their Jonathan Edwards article is on him and other encyclopedia articles refer to him, while the athlete only gets mentions in year book coverage of the competitions, not in the encyclopedia proper. Only 2 of their 39 references to Jonathan Edwards refer to the athlete. [http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9032039/Jonathan-Edwards][http://www.britannica.com/search?query=Jonathan+Edwards&ct=&searchSubmit.x=0&searchSubmit.y=0][http://www.britannica.com/search?query=Jonathan+Edwards+triple-jump&ct=&searchSubmit.x=0&searchSubmit.y=0]. I think we have adequate evidence that Theologian is the primary topic. [[User:GRBerry|GRBerry]] 04:52, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
*<del><del>'''Support''' since that's where consensus seems to be</del> '''Neutral''' As the athlete is more well known in the U.K., the theologian in the U.S. I'm pretty sure that most U.K. users would be looking for the athlete so if the move is put through then an additional link to the athlete as well as the disambiguation page should be put in, as suggested by [[User:Flex|Flex]]. <del>[[[[User:Guest9999|Guest9999]] 10:16, 8 November 2007 (UTC)]]</del>[[[[User:Guest9999|Guest9999]] 10:55, 8 November 2007 (UTC)]]</del>
*'''Oppose''' I do not think that the theologian will neccessarily be the person most people are searching for - for ease of use of all users from all nationalities using Wikipedia the name should link to the disambiguation page. Discussion at [[Talk:Jonathan Edwards (disambiguation)]] showed that many people were looking for the athlete when they typed in Jonathan Edwards - not the Theologian. Again the athlete is one of the best known athletes in Britian having won several medals - including an Olympic Gols and being one of the few - possibly only - British athletes to hold a current world record. He was also the [[BBC Sports Personality of the Year]] and appeared as a presenter on [[Songs of Praise]] a television show which has been running for over 45 years with millions of viewers each week. I do not doubt that in a hitorical context the theologian is the more improtant but I do feel that there is every possibility that the majority of people who type in Jonathan Edwards will be looking for the page on the athlete, Wikipedia is not a [[WP:NOT#PAPER|paper encyclopaedia]] it has a different readership and can hold itself to a different standard. [[[[User:Guest9999|Guest9999]] 21:08, 8 November 2007 (UTC)]]
*'''Support''': I agree with Flex, but I don't much mind either way :). -- [[User:TimNelson|TimNelson]] 11:31, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
*'''Comment''': The argument against moving this seems to advocate in favor of recentism rather than about the overall quality of the encyclopedia over time. This athelete's records may be broken, but the historical primary subject of the (theologian) is likely to endure beyond our lifetime.[[User:Brian0324|Brian0324]] 21:53, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
*'''Reply''' My arguement isn't recentism, it is - and you may well consider this worse - ''nowism''. Wikipedia should be based on the ease of use of the people who are using it right now, not a year, 10 years or 100 years in the future. Wikipedia makes it possible to taylor the encyclopaedia to the needs of the current user - '''if''' in the future the athlete has faded from sight but the theologian remains prominent then things can be changed. However now that is not the case (or at least it is my arguement that it is not). [[WP:NOT#CRYSTAL|Wikipedia is not a crystal ball]] (policy) we should not try to predict serach trends of the future just respond to current ones. [[[[User:Guest9999|Guest9999]]]]
*'''Comment''': There is too strong of a precedent with someone who has been famous for over 200 years to be bypassed by a recent athelete's fleeting fame. I'm just saying that Wikipedia should be about the long term in this instance. It's kind of diminution to say that he was just a theologian anyway![[User:Brian0324|Brian0324]] 23:07, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
:*'''Reply''' You cannot know that his fame will be fleeting - there are athletes who have remained famous for decades - more to the point in the new "infoormation age" is it possible to predict who will be famous in years to come. Could anyone have predicted [[lonelygirl15]] or [[Tila Tequila]] 10 years ago? As I said before the desicion should be based upon what users are currently searching for not for a future standard - we have the ability to make the encyclopaedia as user friendly as possible for any given period of time - why not take advantage of this. If [[John Edwards]] was known as Jonathan Edwards (Jonathan isn't actually his full name - it's juts an example) I would say the name should redirect to his page as he would be the one that most people will be searching for, if he dropped out of the political lime apectrum and interest dried up the page could go back to disambigous, if he was elected president the page would probably be linked to him for some time (again I know it's not his name, only a - slightly protracted - example). [[[[User:Guest9999|Guest9999]] 23:54, 8 November 2007 (UTC)]]
*'''Oppose''' The theologian is probably the most famous holder of the name in the US, but Wikipedia does not have (or should not have) a US-centric bias. Globally, a recent multiple gold medal winner and former world record holder has the greater name recognition. I also agree with those who argue that Wikipedia's structure should reflect what people are looking for now, rather than what has previously been considered important. After all, it's not as if this decision is permanent - in twenty years time, it's quite possible that Jonathan Edwards the athlete will be prety much forgotten, and Wikipedia can be changed to reflect this. [[User:MarkSG|MarkSG]] 21:05, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
**'''Reply and proposal''': I think it's more accurate to say that the theologian is likely the most famous everywhere except in the UK. But even in the UK there has been and continues to be considerable scholarly and popular interest in the theologian. It was the UK's [[Banner of Truth Trust]] that published the theologian's works in two volumes for popular consumption (not the exhaustive, critical edition that Yale is and has been in the process of publishing over the years) and its founder Englishman [[Iain Murray]] who wrote a biography of Edwards, and the famous Welsh preacher [[Martyn Lloyd-Jones]] has written about and encouraged Christians to read Edwards,[http://timmybrister.com/2007/10/19/lloyd-jones-to-church-members-read-jonathan-edwards/] as has British theologian [[J. I. Packer]] (see [http://www.apuritansmind.com/Puritan%20Evangelism/JIPackerPuritanEvangelism.htm "Puritan Evangelism"] from his ''Quest for Godliness'', etc.). I could go on, but the point is that the theologian is not only important in the US, whereas interest in the athlete seems to be nearly limited to the UK, and indeed the theologian is important to Christianity everywhere and in American even more so. Of course, all this doesn't necessarily mean your argument about the WP's structure is nullified. The thing still lingering in my mind is that the disambiguation page will list this towering figure among others in similar disciplines who share his name, but this seems to be in violation of the spirit of [[WP:DISAMBIG#Primary_topic]]. Thus, I propose again that we make the theologian the primary page with the disambig notice at the top reading something like: "For the British athlete, see [[Jonathan Edwards (athlete)]], and for other uses see [[Jonathan Edwards (disambiguation)]]." That seems to me to give adequate attention to the UK-specific interest while keeping the theologian of world-wide interest at the forefront. Lastly, I propose that if this suggestion is not accepted, we should consider other names for this page than [[Jonathan Edwards (theologian)]] since he is equally or perhaps better known as a preacher and revivalist, though his theological/philosophical contributions (esp. the ''Freedom of the Will'') are certainly nothing to sneeze at. --[[User:Flex|Fl<font color="green">e</font>x]] ([[User_talk:Flex|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Flex|contribs]]) 15:08, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
***'''Reply''': I think it's untrue to say that interest in the athlete is nearly limited to the UK. A more accurate distinction, I think, is that interest in the athlete is greater among people worldwide with interest in Olympic discipline sports. The US is unusual in this respect in not having a significant body of sports fans who are followers of the Olympics and related events; in most of the world an Olympic champion commands much greater name recognition. The theologian, on the other hand, despite being of some degree of interest in the UK as well as the US, has virtually no interest in most of the rest of the world. It's certainly not true at all to say that the theologian is "important to Christianity everywhere", as his work was carried out in a fairly small subset of global Christianity - albeit one that is a dominant form in the US. He had a significant input into US Christianity, yes, and a smaller but also significant input into UK Protestant Christianity, but outside these two countries he remains virtually unknown. That, too, is a reason why making the theologian the primary page would be, IMO, unjustifiably US-centric. [[User:MarkSG|MarkSG]] 20:17, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
****'''Reply''': I think it is quite fair to say that Christianity in general and [[Reformed|Reformed Christianity]] in particular, which is a world-wide and sizable body of Christians, have been considerably influenced by Edwards and know about him. I don't think his influence is limited to the US and UK at all. Our back-n-fourth is pretty much he-said/she-said at this point: you say the world-at-large cares more about the athlete, and I say it cares more about the theologian. I admit my claims about the athlete are entirely based on the statements I have read here, personal opinion (I had never heard of him), and cursory googling. Are there any objective metrics we can use to judge if there should be any priority? Perhaps number of citations in reliable sources? --[[User:Flex|Fl<font color="green">e</font>x]] ([[User_talk:Flex|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Flex|contribs]]) 21:13, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
****'''Comment''': Agree with the above comment by Flex. Also, one major impetus behind this move is that we need to have something better because he was more than a theologian. I really think that he is better known as a preacher or as the president of Princeton.[[User:Brian0324|Brian0324]] 21:22, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
****(ec)I think you (MarkSG) are navel-gazing too much. I tested the external evidence (above and again here) and have found that the long-jumper is already clearly far behind the theologian as a primary subject of interest to the English speaking world. In fact, the triple-jumper isn't even the athlete of greatest current interest by this name any more; that privilege goes to [[Jonathan Edwards (rugby player)]] who plays for the [[Llanelli Scarlets]]. As far as I can tell, the theologian is clearly the primary topic. I'm not even convinced anymore that the athlete is clearly second; it appears to be the musician right now. If there truly is great interest in the triple-jumper, where is the evidence of it? He only shows up in google news at all for comments he made in the past about various current athletes, not for anyone saying anything about him. Google web, which is meant to rank by likeliness that a page is something being searched for, ranks today (changed a bit from last week) sites related to various things with this name as follows: [[Jonathan Edwards (musician)|musician]] 1 & 8; theologian 2-7, 9-10, 20-22; triple-jumper 11 & 17; winery 12; [[Jonathan Edwards (comics artist)|illustrator]] 13 & 15; a programmer 14 & 18; a yankee group researcher 16; the college 19. This is prettly clear evidence that the theologian is in fact already the primary topic for current use; the triple-jumper is at best third in current usage. [[User:GRBerry|GRBerry]] 21:25, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
*****'''Reply''': But I think Google in the UK may return different results. --[[User:Flex|Fl<font color="green">e</font>x]] ([[User_talk:Flex|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Flex|contribs]]) 21:47, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
******If it does, I'd certainly like to know, so I know how to evaluate google evidence in the future. If it did, we'd eliminate google web & news evidence from consideration - but I'd still say the theologian is primary based on the Encyclopedia Brittanica evidence. [[User:GRBerry|GRBerry]] 21:59, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
*******When I type in "Jonathon Edwards" into google.com from the UK the first to results are about the athlete. If this is not the case when someone in the USA types in the same name, it is likely that Google results differ depending on where the user is. If this is the case it's not really surprising that people searching in the U.S.A. are getting results topped by the Jonathan Edwards from the U.S.A. and people searching in the U.K. are getting results topped by his U.K. namesake - as would appear to be the case from this discussion. [[[[User:Guest9999|Guest9999]] 00:13, 13 November 2007 (UTC)]]
********And it might be informative if someone in South Africa, Australia, or any other country told us what they get. Perhaps even different parts of the UK get different results. What about Scotland, for instance? --[[User:Flex|Fl<font color="green">e</font>x]] ([[User_talk:Flex|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Flex|contribs]]) 00:47, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
::::::::* The UK result that I mentioned was actually taken in Scotland ([[St. Andrews]]), I don't imagine there would be regional variation around the UK, however if anything the athlete might be more prominent in England (as he is English - although represented the [[United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland]] whilst competing). [[[[User:Guest9999|Guest9999]] 14:31, 14 November 2007 (UTC)]]


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*'''Strongly oppose''' As Flex suspected, I'm familiar with both. I've often seen the athlete on TV - Olympic (and Commonwealth Games!) atheletics is very important here in Australia. We need to be careful, not only of a US bias, but also of a Christian bias - though the triple jumper is, of course, a committed Christian. But there will be a lot of people in the UK who have heard of the athlete, but not the theologian. This is a clear example of where the disambiguation page has to be the main one. [[User:StAnselm|StAnselm]] 02:37, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
**Actually, I see now that he has backed away from his previous Christian commitments. [[User:StAnselm|StAnselm]] 02:57, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' There's been a fair bit said how JE the theologian is more ''important'', but of course we need to decide based on [[WP:NOTABILITY|NOTABILITY]], which isn't the same thing. [[User:StAnselm|StAnselm]] 05:00, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
**Personally I think that they are both (athlete and theologian) clearly notable (per [[WP:NN]]), trying to say who is more notable is a bit tricky as it is not covered by the guideline and should probably be avoided. I think that from a historical perspective the theologian is more important whereas the contemporary athlete is probably more famous in large parts of the modern world. I do not think that the page location should be based on relative notability, fame or importance - notability has been well established in each case and fame and importance are quite subjective and subject to regional variation. What can be more practically looked at is the question of what most users intending to find when the type in "Jonathan Edwards". [[[[User:Guest9999|Guest9999]] 09:18, 13 November 2007 (UTC)]]
***I understand what you mean about notability vs. importance, but [[WP:DISAMBIG#Primary_topic]] brings this up. It would be ridiculous to have, say, [[Michaelangelo (artist)]] because there is also a notable [[Michelangelo (TMNT)|cartoon/toy by the same name]], so I don't think the guideline is way off base here. That being said, StAnselm's comments above have convinced me that we should go to a disambig page. --[[User:Flex|Fl<font color="green">e</font>x]] ([[User_talk:Flex|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Flex|contribs]]) 13:25, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
*'''Oppose (revised vote)''': per StAnselm above. We can make it like [[Michelangelo (disambiguation)]] in that it highlights the two most important figures bearing this name, and we can also rename this page to [[Jonathan Edwards (revivalist)]] or [[Jonathan Edwards (preacher)]] or whatever -- but that's a separate discussion. --[[User:Flex|Fl<font color="green">e</font>x]] ([[User_talk:Flex|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Flex|contribs]]) 13:25, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
**'''Comment''': I have revised the disambiguation page accordingly. --[[User:Flex|Fl<font color="green">e</font>x]] ([[User_talk:Flex|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Flex|contribs]]) 14:08, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
*'''Semi-support''' I continue to believe that this Jonathan Edwards is indeed the primary meaning, based primarily on the evidence from other encyclopedias, and secondarily on the google scholar/book results. However, the new evidence that google web results vary by country makes the case insufficiently clear that it is also acceptable to leave a disambiguation page as the primary redirect for the time being. I think the "athlete" should eventually be redisambiguated to "triple-jumper" as there are other athletes named Jonathan Edwards who are currently getting equivalent attention. I'm not sure if and how this page should be redisambiguated should it not be determined to be the primary meaning. [[User:GRBerry|GRBerry]] 14:49, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
**See this prominent reliable source as an example: [http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sitesearch.do?query=%27Jonathan+Edwards%27&hitsperpage=10&jumpToPrevious=0&mode=SIMPLE&nextOffset=0&offset=0&leftStartIndex=1&leftEndIndex=10&jumpToPrevious=0&mode=SIMPLE&submitStatus=searchFormSubmitted&sectionId=674&x=0&y=0]. By contrast as I mentioned above, the NYTimes has virtually no references to the athlete but plenty to the theologian, so it seems reasonable to me to do a disambig. --[[User:Flex|Fl<font color="green">e</font>x]] ([[User_talk:Flex|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Flex|contribs]]) 15:43, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
*'''Strongly support''' - same reasons as before. methodist church and pentecostal churches represent almost a third of the Christian population today, and the theologian is one of those contributers. the athlete seems to be only known in england, where as the theologian has contributed to the world wide church and will never be forgotten. the USA wasn't founded until after Edwards died. ''I agree that its time to fix this article. it should never have been moved.'' I also remember a tv personality with this name on American tv for several years, and no one remembers him. The athlete is still unknown and may never been world-wide; more likely, as soon as he is replaced he will be forgotten like the tv personality. <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:206.155.48.217 |206.155.48.217 ]] ([[User talk:206.155.48.217 |talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/206.155.48.217 |contribs]]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->
*'''Support''' - clearly the most prominent person on that list, without even a question. He's the most famous preacher in US history (even more so than [[John Wesley]]). To put a recent sportsman on par with this person in terms of disambiguation would be a serious disservice to the quality of the encyclopedia (and, to be quite frank, a worrisome show of anti-Americanism). This would be the equivalent of having an American long jumper on par with [[William Pitt]] (a page which, incidentally, is diambiguated, but only because there was the elder and younger). [[User:The Evil Spartan|The Evil Spartan]] ([[User talk:The Evil Spartan|talk]]) 09:01, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
:*'''Comment''' if Brad Pitt used his birth name of "William Pitt" then I would suggest that "William Pitt" should direct to his page as he is by far the most famous, in the U.K., the U.S.A. and everwhere else and would be the subject of by far the most searches. This would be despite the politicians being far more important (in my opinion) in a historical sense. The simple fact is that in U.K. (and from this discussion likely Australia, New Zealand and other parts of the common wealth) the athlete will be the person that people are looking for. I really think that people are overestimating how well known the theologian is outside of religeous Christians in the U.S.A. So far only one person I've asked has even heard of the man and they didn't know who he was. Ask yourselves this - how many important Hindu (600 million worldwide) or Muslim (1 bilion worldwide) theologians can you name? I fully accept that the theologian will be more importnat in historical terms but currently the majority of users may well be searching for the athlete - or another Jonathan Edwards entirely. Please note that even the user who requested this move has changed his opinion based on the discussion. [[[[User:Guest9999|Guest9999]] ([[User talk:Guest9999|talk]]) 22:57, 17 November 2007 (UTC)]]
*'''Oppose''' - the current situation works just fine. If there was to be a primary occupier of the Jonathan Edwards page, I'd go for the triple jumper. - [[User:Richard Rundle|fchd]] ([[User talk:Richard Rundle|talk]]) 21:55, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' - I agree with Guest9999 and fchd. In my experience most people talking about Jonathan Edwards would be talking about the athlete. He is very much a "household name", at least in the UK. I'm sorry to say that the theologian is not a household name in the UK, and I expect the same is true in many countries. Wikipedia can't be allowed to assert that theology is more important than sport. Let's keep it balanced, and keep it all with the disambiguation page. [[User:Sam Staton|Sam Staton]] ([[User talk:Sam Staton|talk]]) 13:40, 21 November 2007 (UTC)


Cheers.—[[User:InternetArchiveBot|'''<span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">InternetArchiveBot</span>''']] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">([[User talk:InternetArchiveBot|Report bug]])</span> 20:51, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
===Discussion===
:''Any additional comments:''
* A quick comment/query. What about the links (from main/portal/template spaces only) to each article as well as those directly to the disambiguation page? I think the total population will probably give us a better picture of the overall primary topic. I don't have time right now to check myself, and don't want to opine based on which one(s) I knew about before looking at the disambiguation page. [[User:GRBerry|GRBerry]] 18:39, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
**I checked, and it looks to me like the links to the theologian are significantly more in number than all to the others put together. --[[User:Flex|Fl<font color="green">e</font>x]] ([[User_talk:Flex|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Flex|contribs]]) 19:46, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
***The link count is, upon review, significantly distorted by links from navigation templates. For example, [[Jonathan Edwards (academic)]] is only directly linked by 3 articles, but is also in a template that is on 30 pages. The theologian is linked from 13 articles and 1 minor portal page. The athlete is in four different navigation templates, which are on lots of articles, making it hard to figure out what the true links to his article are. I think there are more Wikipedia links to the athlete's article, even after discounting for the template links, than to the theologian's article. But I also think that Wikipedia links isn't even a important measure - the important measure is the general reader's likely interest, and the google test is better for that. [[User:GRBerry|GRBerry]] 04:34, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
****Technical question: How do you come up with your link counts that exclude templates? Do you count pages that have a template ''and'' a link in the text? --[[User:Flex|Fl<font color="green">e</font>x]] ([[User_talk:Flex|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Flex|contribs]]) 05:18, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
*****I did manual subtraction, so I may be undercounting the folks with nav template. I considered temporarily removing them from the templates an getting a clean article text list - but decided that wasn't worth doing. Since there are no nav templates that include the Theologian, the possible undercounting doesn't change my belief that the Athlete has more text links. But, as I said above, counting wikipedia links is the wrong approach. As described at [[WP:CSB]], we have systemic biases, making Wikipedia link counting incorrect. Relevant biases include those for pop culture topics, [[Wikipedia:Recentism|recentism]], and for religious topics, and the overall effect of the bias is impossible to determine. So we need to go look at the real world, not at current wikipedia links. [[User:GRBerry|GRBerry]] 14:08, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
******I agree with you about systematic bias and recentism, but I think link count (minus templates) can still be a useful measure. Anyway, [[:Template:Calvinism]] includes the theologian, though it doesn't seem to add that much. [Update: I believe I have may have overstated the number of links to the theologian vs. the others, but I am not convinced that the athlete actually has more after excluding templates. In any case, the disparity is not as great as I originally suggested.] --[[User:Flex|Fl<font color="green">e</font>x]] ([[User_talk:Flex|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Flex|contribs]]) 18:36, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
*There is some older relevant discussion at [[Talk:Jonathan Edwards (disambiguation)]]. [[User:GRBerry|GRBerry]] 04:04, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
** Is there any way to tell which article (that for the athlete or that for the theologian) most people are looking for when they type in Jonathan Edwards. Page views or something? When I type "Jonathon Edwards" into Google (from in the UK - I don't know if that makes a difference) the Wikipedia page for the athlete is the first result and the page for the theologian is the third result. [http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22jonathan+edwards%22&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official] Aren't google rankings somewhat based on how many people view a page? I agree in a Historical context the theologian is more important and he is probably more well known the America but in terms of ease of use of Wikipedia I think that linking to the disambiguation page is the better option. If in the future interest in the athlete has waned but interest in the theologian has remained then the link could be changed. About half of the people who took place in the discussion at [[Talk:Jonathan Edwards (disambiguation)]] were searching for the athlete or belived that currently the theologian would not be the most searched for person with the name. [[[[User:Guest9999|Guest9999]] 20:52, 8 November 2007 (UTC)]]
***Not that I'm aware of, though the number of edits (including vandalism!) in their respective page histories may give some indication -- the athlete has over 600, the theologian has almost 1000, though it appears the latter history may be truncated since the article is quite tlong when it was "moved" from [[Jonathan Edwards]] in the earliest revision listed. --[[User:Flex|Fl<font color="green">e</font>x]] ([[User_talk:Flex|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Flex|contribs]]) 21:21, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
:::*To my mind those figures are not significantly different. Considering that theology is a more controversial topic than athletics you would expect the article to be more heavily edited. I don't know if it's relevant but isn't the fact that the page is a vandal target another reason why it should not be used as a page a large proportion of people will visit just to be redirected. The more stable disambiguation page would seem like a better option. [[[[User:Guest9999|Guest9999]] 22:59, 8 November 2007 (UTC)]]

:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the {{{type|proposal}}}. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.</div><!-- Template:pollbottom -->
''It was [[wikipedia:requested moves|requested]] that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved.'' [[User:Number 57|<font color="orange">пﮟოьεԻ</font>]] [[User talk:Number 57|<font color="green">5</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Number 57|<font color="blue">7</font>]] 13:24, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

== Article accuracy and references. ==

This article relies on references that omit the page numbers. The article is also written with unsupported statements such as; "Sarah's spiritual devotion was without peer, and her relationship with God had long proved an inspiration to Edwards.". While I have no intentions to try to neutralize an article to a point where importance to religion is displaced, I think such profound statements should be carefully referenced. [[User:Otr500|Otr500]] ([[User talk:Otr500|talk]]) 01:04, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

I think we can remove/delete the objection. I wrote that sentence and the following one about Sarah--both come from the Marsden text. The citation simply follows the next sentence--I was following Chicago Style's practice of bundling citations so the text isn't littered with citations after very sentence. I did all that editing in August 2009, and everything I quoted had a citation from my reading of the Marsden text (I've read other sources on Edwards, of course), unless it was a really general, widely known statement. If an editor is inclined, I suppose we could add a citation after every single sentence, but I think that would be make for a distracting read.
[[User:Jim37hike|Jim37hike]] ([[User talk:Jim37hike|talk]]) 20:24, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

== Stockbridge Pastor ==

As an example of the documentation for the date of his installation as pastor at Stockbridge, see Jonathan Edwards: A Life, Page 365 : [http://books.google.com/books?id=SeGd_Ry34_MC&lpg=PA382&vq=stockbridge&pg=PA365#v=snippet&q=stockbridge&f=false Jonathan Edwards: A Life]. I believe the previously stated 1750 is incorrect. - [[User:Dunc0029|Dunc0029]] ([[User talk:Dunc0029|talk]]) 14:01, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

We can delete/remove the above objection. The date now correctly reads 1751--Edwards arrived there that Spring/summer. See Marsden, Jonathan Edwards: A Life, pages 365, 371, 375.
[[User:Jim37hike|Jim37hike]] ([[User talk:Jim37hike|talk]]) 20:28, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

== Edwards' views on slavery ==

I would like more clarity in the article on Jonathan Edwards' theological/intellectual/ideological and personal views on slavery in the colonies, especially in comparison to the views of George Whitefield. I would suggest that this topic should have its own section in the article. Thanks. -[[Special:Contributions/96.26.108.183|96.26.108.183]] ([[User talk:96.26.108.183|talk]]) 18:19, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

== Nationality ==


== Should we be calling Edwards Puritan? ==
"Caucasian" is not a nationality. Not even in the Caucasus. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/74.243.207.130|74.243.207.130]] ([[User talk:74.243.207.130|talk]]) 12:26, 30 March 2014 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


As I understand he is within Puritan thought but he himself isn’t a Puritan since he isn’t a member of the Church of England. [[User:Aquahelper|Aquahelper]] ([[User talk:Aquahelper|talk]]) 16:21, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
== Enlightenment? ==
:Originally, the Puritans who settled in New England maintained that they were members of the CofE, but once they got to America they became [[Congregationalism in the United States|Congregationalists]]; so New England Puritanism is synonymous with early Congregationalism. Edwards was a Congregationalist who lived at a time when the Puritan era was ending and New England social and religious patterns were changing. I think we can say <s>he was a Puritan or at least</s> that he was part of the Puritan theological heritage. [[User:Ltwin|Ltwin]] ([[User talk:Ltwin|talk]]) 02:34, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
::Upon review of ''Jonathan Edwards: A Life'' by George Marsden, I think we have to say that "Edwards was loyal to the theology inherited from the seventeenth-century Puritans and their continental 'Reformed,' or Calvinistic, counterparts ...", in the words of Marsden. Marsden seems to assume that the Puritan era is over by the time Edwards comes on the scene. [[User:Ltwin|Ltwin]] ([[User talk:Ltwin|talk]]) 02:49, 30 July 2018 (UTC)


So it’s NOT right to refer to him as a ‘Puritan’ - everyone agrees? He was an 18th century theologian and evangelist who built on Puritan theology, but it’s at best misleading to call him a Puritan, right? [[User:JPMorgan2|JPMorgan2]] ([[User talk:JPMorgan2|talk]]) 07:09, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
"Recent studies have emphasized how thoroughly Edwards grounded his life's work on conceptions of beauty, harmony, and ethical fittingness, and how central ''The Enlightenment'' was to his mindset."


== Missing reference ==
Am I missing something? How can The Enlightenment be central to a person who preached almost only about Satan and hell?


Close to the top of the article is a note that references ‘Smith, 2005.’ However, I could not find this publication in the Reference list. Does anyone know what this publication is? The author of this part of the article seems to have had reason for believing it was important. [[User:JPMorgan2|JPMorgan2]] ([[User talk:JPMorgan2|talk]]) 07:32, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
The Enlightenment is called like this because it aimed to make people stop believing exactly in such superstitious nonsense. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/212.95.7.152|212.95.7.152]] ([[User talk:212.95.7.152|talk]]) 17:16, 28 October 2014 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


:{{yo|JPMorgan2}}, they weren't alphabetized. Smith is there, and I moved it into order. [[User:Outriggr|Outriggr]] ([[User talk:Outriggr|talk]]) 08:11, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
You have a radically simplistic understanding of the Enlightenment, that's your problem. The term 'enlightenment' is itself a spiritual/religious term and many of the thinkers of the Enlightenment were religious. The Enlightenment was not really an attack against religion and the idea of God, rather it was an attack/re-examination of the social institutions of the time and the authority of those institutions. Read thoroughly the article about the Enlightenment, and be enlightened. Many figures associated with the movement were extremely religious by today's standards. The great philosopher Immanuel Kant was a believer in God, believing that the existence of God is necessary for morality to exist; and Isaac Newton, one of the most important figures in modern science who created the field known as Newtonian physics and co-created the field of calculus in mathematics (along with Leibniz) was a firm believer in the Christian God and wrote more about the Bible than he did science/math. You seem to have received the propaganda currently taught in the idiot factories, i.e. the public schools. Read some books and educate yourself. Preferably, teach yourself Latin and Classical Greek like I have and read the Classics in their original languages, it is like doing a cleanse after being raised in the idiotic culture we currently reside in where we want everyone to be educated and so have lowered the standards of education. <small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/76.88.94.122|76.88.94.122]] ([[User talk:76.88.94.122|talk]]) 22:13, 7 December 2014 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


== Article cleanup ==
'''One thing I can tell you about Enlightenment is that enlightened people are certainly not arrogant. All you do is talk about yourself, how educated you are and how uneducated people are, who disagree with you. Your aggressiveness (calling people idiots) is the proof of your own ignorance and insecurity. You suffer from a compulsion to tell people that you know Latin and Greek (nobody asked you and I doubt you learned them), but knowing languages says nothing about one's capacity to think analytically.'''


Guess I'll just leave a notice here for any other editors watching this page. I'll be cleaning up sources, citing material, and (most likely) rewriting sections to rely more on in-line citations from peer-reviewed journals and book sources. Essentially, I'll try to get this page into a repaired and more comprehensive shape than how it is currently portrayed. Perhaps, I can get it to Good Article status, but who knows {{Em dash}} there's quite a lot of work to do here. [[User:PoliticsIsExciting|PoliticsIsExciting]] ([[User talk:PoliticsIsExciting|talk]]) 03:12, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
'''Satan, hell, etc., were absolutely not part of the Enlightenment thought! Most people see Baruch Spinoza as the father of the Enlightenment and he was very radical about religious BS. You boast yourself of allegedly having read so many books, but it's clear you haven't read one of the most important books ever: Spinoza's "Ethics". So much for your "education"...''' <small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/194.96.154.210|194.96.154.210]] ([[User talk:194.96.154.210|talk]]) 12:10, 23 December 2014 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

Latest revision as of 21:03, 13 January 2024

Nationality

[edit]

Is it correct to describe him as American when the United States didn't exist during his lifetime? Tigerboy1966  20:43, 30 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Should we be calling Edwards Puritan?

[edit]

As I understand he is within Puritan thought but he himself isn’t a Puritan since he isn’t a member of the Church of England. Aquahelper (talk) 16:21, 29 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Originally, the Puritans who settled in New England maintained that they were members of the CofE, but once they got to America they became Congregationalists; so New England Puritanism is synonymous with early Congregationalism. Edwards was a Congregationalist who lived at a time when the Puritan era was ending and New England social and religious patterns were changing. I think we can say he was a Puritan or at least that he was part of the Puritan theological heritage. Ltwin (talk) 02:34, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Upon review of Jonathan Edwards: A Life by George Marsden, I think we have to say that "Edwards was loyal to the theology inherited from the seventeenth-century Puritans and their continental 'Reformed,' or Calvinistic, counterparts ...", in the words of Marsden. Marsden seems to assume that the Puritan era is over by the time Edwards comes on the scene. Ltwin (talk) 02:49, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

So it’s NOT right to refer to him as a ‘Puritan’ - everyone agrees? He was an 18th century theologian and evangelist who built on Puritan theology, but it’s at best misleading to call him a Puritan, right? JPMorgan2 (talk) 07:09, 23 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Missing reference

[edit]

Close to the top of the article is a note that references ‘Smith, 2005.’ However, I could not find this publication in the Reference list. Does anyone know what this publication is? The author of this part of the article seems to have had reason for believing it was important. JPMorgan2 (talk) 07:32, 23 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@JPMorgan2:, they weren't alphabetized. Smith is there, and I moved it into order. Outriggr (talk) 08:11, 23 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Article cleanup

[edit]

Guess I'll just leave a notice here for any other editors watching this page. I'll be cleaning up sources, citing material, and (most likely) rewriting sections to rely more on in-line citations from peer-reviewed journals and book sources. Essentially, I'll try to get this page into a repaired and more comprehensive shape than how it is currently portrayed. Perhaps, I can get it to Good Article status, but who knows — there's quite a lot of work to do here. PoliticsIsExciting (talk) 03:12, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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