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m Maintain {{WPBS}} and vital articles: 5 WikiProject templates. Merge {{VA}} into {{WPBS}}. Keep majority rating "Start" in {{WPBS}}. Remove 4 same ratings as {{WPBS}} in {{WikiProject Politics}}, {{WikiProject Law}}, {{WikiProject Philosophy}}, {{WikiProject Libertarianism}}.
 
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Seeing as how no article on liberty rights yet exists, and the concepts of claim rights and liberty rights are best explained in contrast to one another, I'd like to suggest that this article be turned into one on "Liberty and claim rights", similar to the article on [[Negative and positive rights]]. Unfortunately I'm a wiki noob and don't quite know how to go about this... help? -Forrest
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:Hmm apparently a [[liberty right]] article does exist, it was just capitalized oddly. I've noted a suggestion to merge on its discussion page too. [[User:Pfhorrest|Pfhorrest]] ([[User talk:Pfhorrest|talk]]) 02:26, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
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== Stalinesque overtones ==
== Active and passive, first and second order ==


<blockquote>
After some further reading (e.g. [http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/rights/]) it occurs to me that there are two distinctions within the Hohfeldian analysis of rights as liberties, claims, powers, and immunities: "active" rights (liberties and powers) vs "passive" rights (claims and immunities), which it seems is really the subject of this article, and first-order rights (liberties and claims) vs second-order rights (powers and immunities).
This is because the deontic concepts of obligation and permission are De Morgan dual; a person is permitted to do all and only the things he is not obliged to refrain from, and obliged to do all and only the things he is not permitted to refrain from.
</blockquote>


To a non-philosopher, it's hard to read this without Stalinesque overtones on "permitted"[by whom?] creeping into mind. My impulse here is s/permission/license/. 'License' being a word which, for me—as a non-specialist—has fewer overtones (and, in the view of an armchair linguist, impels less reflection about the unstated Soviet). &mdash; [[user:MaxEnt|MaxEnt]] 01:39, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
Given that, I'm considering renaming this article to use Lyons' terminology of [[Active and passive rights]], and perhaps creating a second article on [[First-order and second-order rights]], though I don't know if there is really enough material for the latter. Thoughts? --[[User:Pfhorrest|Pfhorrest]] ([[User talk:Pfhorrest|talk]]) 00:37, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

:Checking a few online dictionaries, I can't find any suggestion that 'license' is any less connected to authority than 'permission', and the Wiktionary articles if anything say more about law and legality with regard to 'license' than they do 'permission' (which is only "usually" from a figure in authority in the first Wiktionary definition). To my ear "license" has more tones of allowed-by-a-legal-authority than just the "allowed" simpliciter that "permission" implies, too. (The latter of which is the intended meaning; the deontic concepts don't hinge on reference to any specific authority, just "allowed-ness" and "required-ness" in the abstract; "may" and "must" to use simpler words). In any case I don't see why you draw a connection to Stalin or the Soviets specifically rather than authoritarianism more generally? Is there some history of Stalin or the Soviets especially (ab)using the (English?) word "permitted" that I'm not aware of? --[[User:Pfhorrest|Pfhorrest]] ([[User talk:Pfhorrest|talk]]) 05:13, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 01:52, 12 January 2024

Stalinesque overtones

[edit]

This is because the deontic concepts of obligation and permission are De Morgan dual; a person is permitted to do all and only the things he is not obliged to refrain from, and obliged to do all and only the things he is not permitted to refrain from.

To a non-philosopher, it's hard to read this without Stalinesque overtones on "permitted"[by whom?] creeping into mind. My impulse here is s/permission/license/. 'License' being a word which, for me—as a non-specialist—has fewer overtones (and, in the view of an armchair linguist, impels less reflection about the unstated Soviet). — MaxEnt 01:39, 12 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Checking a few online dictionaries, I can't find any suggestion that 'license' is any less connected to authority than 'permission', and the Wiktionary articles if anything say more about law and legality with regard to 'license' than they do 'permission' (which is only "usually" from a figure in authority in the first Wiktionary definition). To my ear "license" has more tones of allowed-by-a-legal-authority than just the "allowed" simpliciter that "permission" implies, too. (The latter of which is the intended meaning; the deontic concepts don't hinge on reference to any specific authority, just "allowed-ness" and "required-ness" in the abstract; "may" and "must" to use simpler words). In any case I don't see why you draw a connection to Stalin or the Soviets specifically rather than authoritarianism more generally? Is there some history of Stalin or the Soviets especially (ab)using the (English?) word "permitted" that I'm not aware of? --Pfhorrest (talk) 05:13, 12 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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