View source for Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Chess/Archive 17

{{atnhead}}

== [[ECF grading system]] ==

Move text to [[Talk:ECF_grading_system]]. More relevant on article then a wider issue for WikiProject Chess. [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 13:14, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

== Articles for deletion/Dallas Chess Club ==

[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dallas Chess Club]]

You guys might be best equipped to help out on this article and the AfD. The article was made by a new user, too, so the article could do with some work. If the club is as big (most active in the US?) as the article states, then it definitely passes [[WP:N]]. <sub>[[User:MetricSuperstar|Me]]</sub>[[Special:Contributions/MetricSuperstar|t]]<sup>[[User talk:MetricSuperstar|ty]]</sup> 02:59, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
== Eugenio Torre ==

[[Eugenio Torre]] article probably has copyright problems.  Two sections look like they are copied directly from another source.  [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|(talk)]], 03:40, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
*Hmm... the section "Torre breaks Chess Olympiad Record" is word for word the same as [http://blog.chess.com/bendcat/the-rise-of-grandmaster-eugene-torre-2 this blog] on chess.com. Which came first is unclear to me; did chess.com copy us, or did we copy someone else? The chess.com blog post is dated July 17, 2007, and the content in question seems to have been added to Wikipedia before that date. What ''is'' clear is that the section there does not look like an encylopedia article. [[User:Sjakkalle|Sjakkalle]] [[User talk:Sjakkalle|<small>(Check!)</small>]] 15:01, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

:: That section reads like a newspaper article or something similar.  There is a dead link at the end of the section and my guess is that it was copied from there.  Much of the previous section is copied from the link at the end of that section.  [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|(talk)]], 19:36, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

:: The page has been blanked because of copyright violations.  MAybe someone can work on the article.  [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|(talk)]], 03:25, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

::: The copyright violations have been removed from the article.  Now the article needs to be expanded. [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|(talk)]], 18:09, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

== Articles to delete section ==

Do we really need this any more, now we have the Article Alerts section which lists AfDs for us?--[[User:Pawnkingthree|Pawnkingthree]] ([[User talk:Pawnkingthree|talk]]) 21:27, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

: Not really, if the article has the Chess project tag on its talk page.  If the article has that tag it should show up within several hours. Some articles don't have the tag and sometimes people see the AfD before it is picked up by the software. [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|(talk)]], 02:39, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

::One issue with Article Alerts (at least for me) is that it does not appear in your watchlist, so if you do not look at it specifically you may never know something is happening. [[User:SyG|SyG]] ([[User talk:SyG|talk]]) 18:29, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

::: That's true.  You have to check the project page manually.  [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|(talk)]], 23:17, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
== pronounce Rossolimo ==

How do you pronounce the last name of [[Nicolas Rossolimo]]?  My first guess was ross-o-LEE-mo but looking at it, maybe it is ro-SO-li-mo or something.  [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|(talk)]], 02:10, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

== [[FIDE titles]] merge ==

At first I supported the merge of many pages to [[FIDE titles]], including [[International Master|IM]], [[FIDE Master|FM]], [[Woman Grandmaster|WGM]], and [[Woman International Master|WIM]], but now I'm not sure.  Your input is requested at [[Talk:FIDE titles#Merge maybe not a good idea]]. [[User:Quale|Quale]] ([[User talk:Quale|talk]]) 06:58, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
:There's another problem in that the moving of [[FIDE Titles]] to [[FIDE titles]] has created several [[WP:Double redirects|double redirects]]. I fixed the four pages you listed above but if there are many more they'll all have to be done too.--[[User:Pawnkingthree|Pawnkingthree]] ([[User talk:Pawnkingthree|talk]]) 17:40, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
::Fixed the rest as well:)--[[User:Pawnkingthree|Pawnkingthree]] ([[User talk:Pawnkingthree|talk]]) 15:40, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
::: I think there is a bot that is supposed to take care of double redirects within 24 hours.  [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|(talk)]], 03:59, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

[[Chess titles]] and [[FIDE titles]] may need to be merged.  [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|(talk)]], 03:57, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

== Redirect class ==

There is a redirect class but currently WikiChess does not include it, I think we should. There is a [[User:Xenobot Mk V|bot]] that can add them to pages see [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AWeber_Grill_Restaurant&diff=317741110&oldid=142889309 here]. Reminded of this issue because of the recent merge of various articles into [[FIDE titles]], all of which previous had Chess-WikiProject assessments and all now will become redirects. [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 23:37, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

: I think it would be useful to have a list or category of redirects to chess articles.  There are a lot of redirects to chess terms which are a lot easier to type than the full path.  [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|(talk)]], 06:13, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
== Equal ==

In several articles I saw something like "he came '''equal''' 4th at ... tornament". If a player, for example, shared places from 4 to 10 and became 9th or 10th by tiebreak, can we still say that he came '''equal''' 4th? --[[User:I Do Care|I Do Care]] ([[User talk:I Do Care|talk]]) 06:00, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

:The usual convention for ties without a tiebreak is e.g. 4th-10th, though you'd probably need to explain this the first it occurs in the text and/or tables. If course if a tiebreak (partially) resolves the order, you'd use the result of that - which could still include a few narrower tie groups. --[[User:Philcha|Philcha]] ([[User talk:Philcha|talk]]) 07:44, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

:: Thank you, Philcha. But it's still unclear for me and I would modify my question: when we see phrase "he came equal 4th at ... tornament" does it mean that a player tied from 4 to something (5, 6 ...10) but became 4th by tiebreak? --[[User:I Do Care|I Do Care]] ([[User talk:I Do Care|talk]]) 08:12, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

:::Really brief reports would show only the post-tiebreak result, longer ones would give the background. If a report includes a table of results, it would usually show the post-tiebreak placings, but you'd notice that several players had the same score. -[[User:Philcha|Philcha]] ([[User talk:Philcha|talk]]) 11:22, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

::: In my opinion the answer to Do Care's question is not a simple yes or no. It depends on the tournament really, some use tiebreak for 4th place and higher, while others don't bother. [[User:Loosmark|Loosmark]] ([[User talk:Loosmark|talk]]) 14:18, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

== Importance of Kayden Troff ==

I believe that Kayden deserves to be bumped up to a mid importance level.  He just became the North American Champion for all ages U-12, and recieved the title of candidate master.  He is nearly top of the list in regular rating for all ages under 16, and has been at the top of the quick rated list for quite some time.  He is also Utah Champion in nearly all categories, and all of this at the age of eleven!  Can't Kayden be bumped up a level?  [[User:GrandMattster|Grand]][[User_Talk:GrandMattster|Mattster]] 20:20, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
:I would tend to slightly disagree. My understanding of the scale would be something like:
:* Top-class: World Chess Champions
:* High-class: finalists of the World Chess Championship, Woman World Chess Champions
:* Mid-class: got into the world top-10 (adult) at one point of time. Maybe also the Junior World Chess Champion.
:Let's present it another way: how has Kayden Troff contributed to the development of the history of chess ? [[User:SyG|SyG]] ([[User talk:SyG|talk]]) 20:36, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
::I agree - consider that the articles on Grandmasters [[Larry Christiansen]], [[Joel Benjamin]] and [[Lev Alburt]], each of whom has won the U.S. Championship at least twice, are also considered "Low importance", like Troff's. There's no way that he's a more significant figure in chess history than they are. [[User:Krakatoa|Krakatoa]] ([[User talk:Krakatoa|talk]]) 21:22, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
:The importance scale is at [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Chess/Assessment#Importance scale]]. It advises that a Mid importance subject should "add important further details within its field, with some impact beyond it." I don't think Kayden is quite there yet. A Low Importance category doesn't mean he's insignificant; it's all relative.--[[User:Pawnkingthree|Pawnkingthree]] ([[User talk:Pawnkingthree|talk]]) 21:32, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
::Agreed - it's certainly not a slight of him at all. IMO, the description should be rewritten. I doubt that even most World Champions (i.e. the subjects of "Top Level" articles, typically) have much, if any, "impact" beyond the "field" of chess. [[User:Krakatoa|Krakatoa]] ([[User talk:Krakatoa|talk]]) 22:40, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
*Okay, thanks for your opinions.  I'll go with the concensus.  [[User:GrandMattster|Grand]][[User_Talk:GrandMattster|Mattster]] 14:09, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
== Review of [[Budapest Gambit]] ==

I have nominated [[Budapest Gambit]] for review at [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Chess/Review/Budapest Gambit]]. This is both to get constructive feedback and to have a hint of how the article should evolve to get to A-class. It does not need to be a pain, even high-level reviews would be appreciated. Thanks in advance for your help ! [[User:SyG|SyG]] ([[User talk:SyG|talk]]) 07:34, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

:Apparently this review has unfortunately generated very limited enthusiasm, so I have nominated the article for GA-review as well. If one of you masters the GA process and GA criteria, of course he is welcome to take the GA-review on. [[User:SyG|SyG]] ([[User talk:SyG|talk]]) 18:22, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

::It's not that I'm necessarily unenthusiastic; I've read over the article a number of times and I've thought about participating, but I guess I'm just a little intimidated by the level of detail for an opening I'm not that familiar with. I will consider doing a GA-review instead. --[[User:Pawnkingthree|Pawnkingthree]] ([[User talk:Pawnkingthree|talk]]) 19:08, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
::Well looks like I don't need to - you have a GA reviewer already. You're very lucky - most people have to wait weeks!:)--[[User:Pawnkingthree|Pawnkingthree]] ([[User talk:Pawnkingthree|talk]]) 20:03, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

:::Yeah, it's completely mesmerising. I was counting on a one-month-delay, typical for chess-related articles. Another good fortune: he seems to be an expert on the Budapest and has all the references ! Mmm... too much luck recently, maybe I should watch out my wife more closely.
:::In all cases thanks for your intended GA-review, and please do not hesitate to do additional comments on the Talk page ! [[User:SyG|SyG]] ([[User talk:SyG|talk]]) 18:21, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
::I started a review but like the above felt it was gonna take ages to I didn't post the bit I started. The Budapest naming to match the place is implied but not verified. [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 22:49, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I am very happy to announce that [[Budapest Gambit]] has successfully undergone the GA-review, and now becomes a [[WP:GA|Good Article]] ! How long the road has been since I had a first glance on it, when it looked [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Budapest_Gambit&oldid=60332073 like that], more than three years ago. I am especially happy to know that an article on a chess opening can apply to Wikipedia standards, avoiding pitfalls like [[WP:NOTHOWTO#Wikipedia is not a manual, guidebook, textbook, or scientific journal|WP:NOTHOWTO]]. I would like to thank the other significant contributors to this article, notably Krakatoa, Bubba73, SunCreator and the reviewer Sasata. Cheers ! [[User:SyG|SyG]] ([[User talk:SyG|talk]]) 12:42, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

== Endgame articles overview and review ==

The creation of the [[Queen and pawn versus queen endgame‎]] article made me think it would be a good time to review what endgame articles we have and which one we require.
Below is the [[Chess endgame#Frequency table|Chess endgame frequency table]].

{| class="wikitable"
|+[[Chess endgame#Frequency table|Chess endgame frequency table]]
! Percent !! Pieces!! Pieces !! Covering article or comment
|-
|8.45||rook||rook||[[Rook and pawn versus rook endgame]] extend article with pawns or create new [[Rook and pawns versus rook endgame]]?
|-
|6.76||rook & bishop||rook & knight||No existing article. Create [[Rook and bishop versus rook and knight endgame]]?
|-
|3.45||two rooks||two rooks||No existing article. Create [[Two rooks versus two rooks endgame]]?
|-
|3.37||rook & bishop||rook & bishop (same color)||No existing article. Create [[Rook and bishop versus rook and bishop endgame]]?
|-
|3.29||bishop||knight||No existing article. Create [[Bishop versus knight endgame]]?
|-
|3.09||rook & knight||rook & knight||No existing article. Create [[Rook and knight versus rook and knight endgame]]?
|-
|2.87||king & pawns||king (and pawns)||No existing article. Create [[King and pawns versus king endgame]]?
|-
|1.92||rook & bishop||rook & bishop (opposite color)||No existing article. Create [[Rook and bishop versus rook and bishop endgame]]?
|-
|1.87||queen||queen||No existing article. Create [[Queen versus queen endgame]]?
|-
|1.77||rook & bishop||rook ||No existing article. Create [[Rook and bishop versus rook endgame]]?
|-
|1.65||bishop||bishop (same color)||No existing article. Create [[Same-colored bishop endgame]]?
|-
|1.56||knight||knight||No existing article. Create [[Knight versus knight endgame]]?
|-
|1.51||rook||bishop||No existing article. Create [[Rook versus bishop endgame]]?
|-
|1.42||rook & knight||rook||No existing article. Create [[Rook and knight versus rook endgame]]?
|-
|1.11||bishop||bishop (opposite color)||[[Opposite-colored bishops endgame]]
|-
|1.01||bishop||pawns||No existing article. To create?
|-
|0.97||rook||knight||No existing article. To create?
|-
|0.92||knight||pawns||No existing article. To create?
|-
|0.90||queen & minor piece||queen||No existing article. To create?
|-
|0.81||rook||two minor pieces||No existing article. To create?
|-
|0.75||rook||pawns||No existing article. To create?
|-
|0.69||queen||rook & minor piece||No existing article. To create?
|-
|0.67||rook & pawn||rook||No existing article. To create?
|-
|0.56||rook & two pawns||rook||No existing article. To create?
|-
|0.42||queen||pawns||[[Queen versus pawn endgame]] plus Queen versus pawns required?
|-
|0.40||queen||rook||No existing article. To create?
|-
|0.31||queen||two rooks||No existing article. To create?
|-
|0.23||king & one pawn||king||[[King and pawn versus king endgame]]
|-
|0.17||queen||minor piece||No existing article. To create?
|-
|0.09||queen & one pawn||queen||[[Queen and pawn versus queen endgame]]
|-
|0.08||queen||two minor pieces||No existing article. To create?
|-
|0.02||bishop & knight||king||[[Bishop and knight checkmate]] plus with pawn(s) required?
|-
|0.01||queen||three minor pieces||No existing article. To create?
|}
Other endgame article we have are:
* [[Two knights endgame]] - Not in above table
* [[Pawnless chess endgame]] - Some overlap with above, but doesn't cover any one section completely as they all can have pawns.

So are the above: requiring an article or already covered in some other articles(which) or not notable enough to have an article. [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 22:12, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

: Maybe they could be done, but there are problems.  Most of the existing articles are simple cases where there is complete analysis and a technique (K+P vs. K, R+P vs. R, Q vs. P, etc).  More complicated cases are covered in books but it gets to the point where there it is hard to say much that is specific and it would probably tend to go beyond what an encyclopedia article can cover.  For instance rook and pawns versus rook and pawns would be very difficult to cover.  There are articles: R+P vs. R, [[Lucena Position]], [[Philidor Position]], and [[Tarrasch rule]] (which often applies in these endings), but a good coverage would be pretty extensive.  There are whole books on these things.  [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|(talk)]], 22:26, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
::That a bit confusing. If there are whole books why would there not be an an encyclopedia article to cover it? Would of thought if there are whole books that would indicate the notable of an article. [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 22:38, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

::: I think they are notable but there are whole books on, say, pawn endings or rook and pawn endings - it might be too large to cover.  And only the simple cases reduce to a technique.  [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|(talk)]], 22:43, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
:::: John Nunn wrote a 320-page book, ''Secrets of Rook Endings'', just on rook and one pawn versus rook. Then there are lots of books on more complicated rook endings, and also books on bishop endings, knight endings, queen endings, pawn endings, bishop versus knight endings, queen versus rook/minor pieces endings, more general endgame books covering a wide variety of endgames, etc. So yes, once you get past relatively simple endings where a forced win or draw is demonstrable, it's very hard to just, say, set out five principles and say, "Here's how you play rook endings." [[User:Krakatoa|Krakatoa]] ([[User talk:Krakatoa|talk]]) 22:52, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
::::::: The second edition of Nunn has 352 pages.  [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|(the argument clinic)]], 03:14, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
:::::So are you saying because it's potentially complicated Wikipedia shouldn't have an article on it? There is quite a good article on [[Opposite-colored bishops endgame]] but [[Same-colored bishops endgame]] would be to hard? Puzzled [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 22:59, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
(Unindent) I'm not sure. [[Same-colored bishops endgame]] should be doable. Some of the others have so many different possible permutations and/or are so lightly covered in the literature (I've never seen a book on two rooks versus two rooks endings, for instance, although ''Endgame Artillery'' covers various combinations of endings with queens and rooks) that they wouldn't make for good articles. [[User:Krakatoa|Krakatoa]] ([[User talk:Krakatoa|talk]]) 23:22, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

: Once you get past a position where each side has at most one piece there isn't much complete analysis except for a few rare ones like queen versus two minor pieces with no pawns.  These are briefly covered in [[pawnless chess endgames]] and [[fortress (chess)|fortress]].  Same-colored bishops is a possibility - there is some good analysis by Centurini.  But even then when you get more than one pawn it may be unmanagable.  Opposite-colored bishops is an exception (as far as the number of pawns) because sometimes two (or more) extra pawns aren't enough to win.  [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|(talk)]], 01:37, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

: Q vs. R w/o pawns has a section in [[Philidor position]] and [[pawnless chess endgames]].  R+B vs. R w/o pawns is in those two plus [[Cochrane Defense]].  [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|(talk)]], 01:42, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

:: ''Practical Endgame Play - beyond the basics'' by [[Glenn Flear]] has a 40-page chapter about R&B vs. R&N (with pawns) endgames (one of the most common endgames).  There is one page of introduction, the bulk of which discusses B vs. N, and the rest consists of examples from games.  Nothing is codified, so I don't think it would make a good article.  [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|(the argument clinic)]], 02:32, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
== [[Chess tournament]] GA review ==

[[Chess tournament]] has been [[Wikipedia:Good_article_nominations#Sports_and_recreation|nominated]] as a Good Article. If you are able to review [[Talk:Chess_tournament|please do so.]] 21:49, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

:I hate to be depressing, but [[Chess tournament]] needs total redevelopment to make GA. Some aspects are over-emphasised while others are omitted, this means the structure needs to be redrawn to accommodate the new material and to provide a logical order, some of the references don't provide what's required (e.g. some refs to books don't have page numbers). --[[User:Philcha|Philcha]] ([[User talk:Philcha|talk]]) 07:18, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
::I generally agree. Which aspects are ommitted? [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 15:17, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

:::Now you've just put me on the spot :-/
:::*I'd be inclined to start with an overview of formats. That would provide defintions of terms that can be use din the rest of the article.
:::*I think the early history needs more. The knockout tournament in London in 1849 and a tournament in Amsterdam in 1851, both already mentioned, were important. All international tournaments took place in Great Britain until Paris 1867 (ref at [[Howard Staunton]]). [[London 1862 chess tournament]] was the first ''international'' round-robin (refs at [[Adolf Anderssen]]), but it would be important to identify the very first round-robin, and most reasoning for and reception for this new format.
:::*The range of levels, from school championships to those that contribute to the World Championship. Tournaments for the World Championship are not restricted to the Zonal-International-Candidates cycle. The World Championship was awarded on the result of tournaments in 1948 and [[World Chess Championship 2007]]. New York 1889 was meant to be for the Championship, although it did not work according to plan (refs at [[Wilhelm Steinitz]]).
:::*Team comps, incl Olympiads.
:::*Might be worth mentioning correspondence comps.
:::*etc., etc.
:::I'm afraid I can't contribute right now, as I'm reviewing 4 artciles for GA and reviwers have just in the last day opened GA reviews on 2 of my noms - aaarg! --[[User:Philcha|Philcha]] ([[User talk:Philcha|talk]]) 16:30, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
::::So many GA... Take care Philcha, beware of [[Wikipedia:Wikipediholic|wikipediholism]] :-) [[User:SyG|SyG]] ([[User talk:SyG|talk]]) 10:40, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

== [[Positional chess]] ==

I'm thinking of changing the Redirect for [[Positional chess]] from [[Glossary of chess#P]] to [[Chess strategy]] some day, then putting in a sentence or two in the [[Chess strategy]] introductory section saying that positional chess or play is a style of play involving chess strategy in addition to [[chess tactics]].  Does anybody have any thoughts on this matter?  Currently I see no article on [[Positional play]], [[Positional play (chess)]], or [[Chess positional play]].  [[User:H Padleckas|H Padleckas]] ([[User talk:H Padleckas|talk]]) 05:44, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

: I just changed it to redirect to [[Glossary of chess#Positional play]].  I think that is better for the time being.  [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|(the argument clinic)]], 15:14, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
== Chess Wikia website ==

I have found that this [http://www.wikia.com/wiki/Chess Chess Wikia] site has become inactive.  Maybe we could do something with it.  A benefit of a site like this is that not all the English Wikipedia rules necessarily have to be followed.  For example, we could put in our own or unpublished games in there.  Also, notability and "no original research" requirements may not have to be as strictly enforced.  [[User:H Padleckas|H Padleckas]] ([[User talk:H Padleckas|talk]]) 21:22, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
:Can't say I can see a purpose at the moment. Disadvantages would be few passing visitors and adverts on pages. If something turns up that can't be done on Wikipedia or Wikibooks then maybe worth giving a go, until then I think I'll pass. [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 23:55, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

:: I looked at it too.  It probably gets very few viewers.  [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|(the argument clinic)]], 01:02, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

== [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Chess/Cleanup_listing|Cleanup listing]] ==

I added [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Chess/Cleanup_listing|Cleanup listing]] to the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Chess#..._which_need_some_work|'... which need some work' section]]. What prompted this was a realisation that there is more articles flagged for cleanup in the Good articles, Top-importance articles and High-importance articles then there was the previous month. [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 00:05, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
== Boungcloud Attack ==

It seems like players playing the [[Boungcloud Attack]] are usually not very serious...

'''1. e4 e5 2. Ke2 Ba3 3. bxa3 Ke7 4. Nf3 Ke6 5. Nxe5 Kxe5 6. f4+ Kxf4 7. g3+ Kxe4 8. d3+ Kd4 9. Bf4 Kc5 10. Nc3 Kb6 11. Rb1+ Ka5 12. Na4 Kxa4 13. Rb4+ Kxa3 14. Rb3+ Kxa2 15. Rb2+ Kxb2 16. Qb1+ Kxb1 17. Bc1 Kxc1 18. Kf3 Kxc2 19. Bg2 Kxd3 20. Rd1+ Kc2 21. Rd2+ Kxd2 22. Bf1 Ke1 23. h4 Kxf1 24. Kg4 Kg2 25. Kf5 Kxg3 26. Ke4 Kxh4 0-1'''

<sup>[[User:Protactinium-231/Guestbook|231]]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/Protactinium-231|91]]</sub>[[User:Protactinium-231|Pa]] (''[[User talk:Protactinium-231|talk]]'') 13:45, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
:Or maybe they're just high. [[User:Krakatoa|Krakatoa]] ([[User talk:Krakatoa|talk]]) 16:35, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
::Why isn't there an article about the [[Boungcloud Attack]]? <sup>[[User:Protactinium-231/Guestbook|231]]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/Protactinium-231|91]]</sub>[[User:Protactinium-231|Pa]] (''[[User talk:Protactinium-231|talk]]'') 13:33, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
:::See [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Boungcloud Attack]]. [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 14:51, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

== Happy Halloween ==

May all your [[Halloween Gambit]]'s be a success! [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 00:16, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
== Let us protect our articles ==

Three poorly versed in chess wikipedians actively attacking the [[List of chess openings named after animals]] article and want to delete it. Members of WikiProject Chess not even try to save the article. If this continues, today we will lost List of chess openings named after animals, tomorrow [[List of chess players]] and after tomorrow [[Chess]] article. --[[User:MrsHudson|MrsHudson]] ([[User talk:MrsHudson|talk]]) 00:40, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

:Thanks for letting us know! I already went and "voted" for keep. (Not that it's a vote, but I justified my position too.) &mdash;[[User:ZeroOne|ZeroOne]] (<small>[[User talk:ZeroOne|talk]]</small>&nbsp;/&nbsp;<small>[[Special:Emailuser/ZeroOne|@]]</small>) 11:31, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

::Me too. I find it tiresome to have chess articles attacked by people who wouldn't know a rook if it hit them in the face. [[User:Krakatoa|Krakatoa]] ([[User talk:Krakatoa|talk]]) 01:55, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

:::I would like to thank everybody who contribute to the [[List of chess openings named after animals]] and other related lists and voted for keeping. --[[User:MrsHudson|MrsHudson]] ([[User talk:MrsHudson|talk]]) 02:02, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

:::To be honest I do not think they where being attacked in this case, but a genuine desire to apply notability like it would apply to a normal article. The notability of lists have been a mystery to me for some time. Right now it seems to me there are thousands or tens of thousands of lists with no assertion of notability on wikipedia. List guidelines seems unclear so maybe they are mysterious covered somehow, but then again maybe not. [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 02:09, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

::::Now "our" lists are very well equipped but opponents are still unsatisfied... --[[User:MrsHudson|MrsHudson]] ([[User talk:MrsHudson|talk]]) 02:15, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

:Do we have any references for the upper part of [[Chess_opening#Opening_nomenclature]]. It could do with some. [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 23:31, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

"Animal rights" successfully defended. Thank you all for your support. --[[User:MrsHudson|MrsHudson]] ([[User talk:MrsHudson|talk]]) 13:51, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

== asking for correction ==

Hello. 

One change is needed in the External links section at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Golubev:

"Mikhail Golubev's Chess Page" (was at http://www.geocities.com/mikhail_golubev) is now at http://mikhailgolubev.wordpress.com/

---
Also, about rating performances, I checked in the Mega Database 2009, my best performances were:
Bethune 2002: 6,5/7, Perf. 2768
Karvina 1992/93: 8/9  Perf. 2691
Yalta 1996: 8,5/11 Perf. 2663
Berlin 1993: 7/9 Perf. 2662
---

Thanks in advance,
GM Mikhail Golubev gmi@europe.com  <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Mikhail golubev|Mikhail golubev]] ([[User talk:Mikhail golubev|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Mikhail golubev|contribs]]) 18:07, 30 October 2009 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:Thanks for these informations. We have updated the link for your website, and the infos on your best performances have been added to the section [[Mikhail_Golubev#Chess_strength]]. [[User:SyG|SyG]] ([[User talk:SyG|talk]]) 08:56, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

== Images in other language wiki's ==

Have found an image for [[Ernst Grünfeld]] [http://br.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Gr%C3%BCnfeld here]. Can we use this, and if so how? [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 15:37, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
:And [[Manuel Aaron]] found [http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A4%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%BB:%D0%90%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BD_%D0%9C%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%83%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8C_%D0%9B%D0%B5%D0%B9%D0%BF%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%B3_1960.jpg here] [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 16:35, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
::As Aaron is still living there's no way a non-free image of him could be justified. I'm not sure of the status of the Grunfeld picture; it  could be transferred to the [http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page Commons] if it's out of copyright.--[[User:Pawnkingthree|Pawnkingthree]] ([[User talk:Pawnkingthree|talk]]) 18:48, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
== Pageview stats ==

After a recent request, I added WikiProject Chess to the list of projects to compile monthly pageview stats for. The data is the same used by http://stats.grok.se/en/ but the program is different, and includes the aggregate views from all redirects to each page. The stats are at [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Chess/Popular pages]].

The page will be updated monthly with new data. The edits aren't marked as bot edits, so they will show up in watchlists. You can view more results, request a new project be added to the list, or request a configuration change for this project using the [[tools:~alexz/pop/|toolserver tool]]. If you have any comments or suggestions, please let me know. Thanks! <span style="font-family:Broadway;">[[User:Mr.Z-man|Mr.]][[User talk:Mr.Z-man|'''''Z-'''man'']]</span> 19:00, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

: Thanks for making the change so the data appears on that page!  [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|(the argument clinic)]], 19:06, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
::Excellent news. Thank you Mr.Z-man. [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 19:42, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

: This makes me think... Should we perhaps reassess the importance of some articles now that we have data on how popular the articles are? For example, [[Chess boxing]] is very near the top of the list but still only rated as low importance. Same goes with [[Fairy chess piece]]. There are also articles with high importance rating that should perhaps be promoted to top importance, such as the [[Elo rating system]] article. Of course these apply to the other end of the list, too: should we keep the high importance rating of, for example, [[Yakov Estrin]] even though he is on the position 1366 of the list? &mdash;[[User:ZeroOne|ZeroOne]] (<small>[[User talk:ZeroOne|talk]]</small>&nbsp;/&nbsp;<small>[[Special:Emailuser/ZeroOne|@]]</small>) 22:52, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

::Have done so already; checking views for all 3227 artices. You can see I have today/yesterday changed already as you mainly suggest: [[Elo rating system]]-Up, [[En passant]]-Up, [[Yakov Estrin]]-Down, [[Krunoslav Hulak]]-Down, [[2004 in chess]]-Down, [[Fairy chess piece]]-Up, in this not for chess but [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Strategy games]] which is perhaps more relevant to that article. Not sure what to do with [[Chess boxing]], it gets plenty of views but a chess rating of Low seems the only option appropriate. [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 23:09, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

::: We initially made all World Champions top importance and world correspondence champions high imp (e.g. [[Yakov Estrin]]).  Even though I played correspondence chess a lot, I'm now thinking that most or all of the correspondence champions should be mid imp.  [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|(the argument clinic)]], 23:44, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
::::Yeah, we started out thinking world correspondence champions would be high importance but then discovered we knew nothing much about these characters [[Grigory Sanakoev]],[[Friedrich Baumbach]],[[Victor Palciauskas]], [[Tõnu Õim]] etc. We then only made the ones we knew - [[Yakov Estrin]] and [[Hans Berliner]] - high and the rest Mid. Since then as even [[Yakov Estrin]] gets few views so now they are all mid, pity as I am a big fan of [[Yakov Estrin]]. [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 23:55, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
::::: Palciauskas was covered in ''Chess Life''.  [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|(the argument clinic)]], 00:37, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

::::: What about [[Cecil Purdy]]?  Right now he has high imp.  [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|(the argument clinic)]], 00:40, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
:::::: I forgot about Cecil Purdy. Will make mid now. [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 11:54, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
(Unindent) IM Purdy was a well-respected writer and a decent player, but I have a hard time believing that he warrants being two importance classes above fellow Australian (and GM) [[Ian Rogers]] or New Zealanders GM [[Murray Chandler]] and IM [[Robert Wade (chess player)|Robert Wade]], all of whom are Low-Importance. Also, very strong grandmasters like [[Ljubomir Ljubojević]] (once ranked No. 3 in the world after Kasparov and Karpov), [[Ulf Andersson]] (also one of the world's top players, ranked as high as No. 4 in the world; one of the best endgame players in history; he later branched out into correspondence chess and became the world's highest-rated correspondence player), and [[Robert Hübner]] (another super-GM, who in 1983 missed challenging Kasparov in the Candidates semi-finals only by the spin of a roulette wheel) are only Mid-Importance. Can anyone claim with a straight face that Purdy should be in a higher category than them? I agree that it is very hard to support more than Mid-Importance for Correspondence World Champions. [[User:Krakatoa|Krakatoa]] ([[User talk:Krakatoa|talk]]) 10:05, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
::[[Cecil Purdy]] is now Mid. [[Robert Hübner]], [[Ljubomir Ljubojević]], [[Ulf Andersson]] are also Mid which I think is about right. [[Ian Rogers]], [[Murray Chandler]] and [[Robert Wade (chess player)|Robert Wade]] are low, [[Ian Rogers]] is boardline in my view being Australia's #1 for about 20 years. All said and done we have to remember the importance scale is just a guide and makes no big difference. Editors don't improve an article because the article has a high or mid importance but generally because they want to or the information is available to do so. [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 12:34, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
:::True, and there will always be judgment calls. Is it right that [[Larry Evans]] is Mid-Importance and [[Larry Christiansen]] Low-Importance? Should [[Ortvin Sarapu]] really be Mid-Importance above the likes of Christiansen, [[Joel Benjamin]], [[Lev Alburt]], etc.? Sarapu doubtless was a huge figure in New Zealand chess, but for the rest of the world - not so much. And should IM Sarapu be Mid-Importance above [[Murray Chandler]], the only grandmaster ever from New Zealand? [[User:Krakatoa|Krakatoa]] ([[User talk:Krakatoa|talk]]) 11:28, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

== importance of Max Pomeranc ==

[[Max Pomeranc]] was the actor in [[Searching for Bobby Fischer]] and was in the top 100 players in the USCF for his age.  He is listed as Low importance.  I think he should be bottom. Any input?  [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|(the argument clinic)]], 14:56, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
:Bottom sounds right to me. [[User:Krakatoa|Krakatoa]] ([[User talk:Krakatoa|talk]]) 15:17, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

:{{done}} [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|(the argument clinic)]], 15:42, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

== Borg Defense ==

Here's a [[Borg Defense]] article at [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation/Borg Defense]]. <sup>[[User:Protactinium-231/Guestbook|231]]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/Protactinium-231|91]]</sub>[[User:Protactinium-231|Pa]] (''[[User talk:Protactinium-231|chat me!]]'') 07:19, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
:Most of it looks like [[WP:NOR|original research]] and the expression of the author's own [[WP:NPOV|points of view]], both of which Wikipedia does not allow. [[User:Krakatoa|Krakatoa]] ([[User talk:Krakatoa|talk]]) 07:28, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
== I have a dream ==

I have been working on [[Bobby Fischer]] on and off for years, and think that it can be raised to GA status with a little more work. What does everyone think? [[User:Krakatoa|Krakatoa]] ([[User talk:Krakatoa|talk]]) 09:33, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
: I haven't read it in a while, but it needs to be GA.  [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|(the argument clinic)]], 16:19, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
:It's one I keep on my watchlist and edit fairly regularly - I'd certainly be up for working on it. I agree with you that it's not too far off. I own several Fischer books so I know quite a lot about him and can help with references too.--[[User:Pawnkingthree|Pawnkingthree]] ([[User talk:Pawnkingthree|talk]]) 17:08, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
::: I used to have Fischer, Kasparov, and Chess on my watchlist, but not now.  I figured that there were enough people watching them for problems.  I have dozens of others on my list though.  [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|(the argument clinic)]], 20:36, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
::I have almost every book about Fischer in the English language, so that's not a problem. The problem is more that the GA reviewer is likely to think that there's too much stuff in the article. [[User:Krakatoa|Krakatoa]] ([[User talk:Krakatoa|talk]]) 19:43, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
:::125kb is on the long side. There are certain sections (eg, US Championships, Olympiads, and Writings) that could be condensed, and I'm sure other stuff can be trimmed.--[[User:Pawnkingthree|Pawnkingthree]] ([[User talk:Pawnkingthree|talk]]) 20:30, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
:::: I think GA should be doable, especially since it (finally) has nice photographs now. [[User:Voorlandt|Voorlandt]] ([[User talk:Voorlandt|talk]]) 23:07, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
::::: Quite a bit of the size is due to the footnotes, refereneces, etc.  The text of the article is probably under 100KB.  [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|(the argument clinic)]], 16:38, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
:::::: Yes, most of the size comes from "peripheric elements". But even if you remove those the article is still 54 kB which is too much. Should at least go under 50 kB. [[User:SyG|SyG]] ([[User talk:SyG|talk]]) 08:20, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

:Good idea.  I'll help if and when I can 09:03, 5 November 2009 (UTC)  <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Fletch79|Fletch79]] ([[User talk:Fletch79|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Fletch79|contribs]]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:: (from my comment on the Fischer Talk page) There is almost no support for the entire section of the article [[Bobby_Fischer#Involvement_with_the_Worldwide_Church_of_God]]. Apart from the first sentence which I put in, concerning the skepticism Fischer about religion that Fischer had previously expressed to Ralph Ginzburg, almost everything in the section is unsupported. Moreover, the only sources cited for anything are two Internet articles critical of Garner Ted Armstrong and the Church by the "Ambassador Report", whatever that is. I question whether these are [[WP:RS|reliable sources]]. If we try to get this article to Good Article status, this section will be an obvious target. We should either furnish reliable sources for this section, or delete it. [[User:Krakatoa|Krakatoa]] ([[User talk:Krakatoa|talk]]) 11:22, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

== Format for half-points? ==

Apologies if this has been discussed before, but is there a standard way of recording half-points in chess-related articles?  I've seen quite a few with (eg) XYZ scored 8.5/13, but I personally prefer the look of 8½/13. Not a big deal but just something I was wondering about. [[User:Fletch79|Fletch79]] ([[User talk:Fletch79|talk]]) 23:27, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
:Good question. I also prefer 8½/13. There's also the question of how to write out a player's results in a tournament. I would prefer simply, say, +6=5-4, but some complain that that's not clear enough to non-players and want one to write out "six wins, five draws, and four losses". That sort of thing makes articles a lot longer if you have to do it a number of times. [[User:Krakatoa|Krakatoa]] ([[User talk:Krakatoa|talk]]) 00:16, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

:: I also prefer 8½, since other fractions of a point are not possible with normal scoring.  I don't like "+6=5-4" because it isn't clear to some readers (I've seen a couple ask about it).  It would be good if there could be something like <nowiki>[[Chess scoring|+6=5-4]]</nowiki> which would link to an explanation.  [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|<sup>(the argument clinic)</sup>]], 04:30, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
::: Frankly, it amazes me that people don't understand this. But your idea is excellent - although I doubt that this scoring method is unique to chess. [[User:Krakatoa|Krakatoa]] ([[User talk:Krakatoa|talk]]) 06:10, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

:::: A lot of casual readers probably don't know that "=" means a draw.  They would probably understand 6W-4L-5D better. People are more familiar with 6-4 (6 wins 4 losses) or 6-4-5.  [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|<sup>(the argument clinic)</sup>]], 06:14, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

:::: In addition, some don't know that a tournament is usually not a knockout or elimination tournament.  Also they may not know that a match consists of more than one game.  [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|<sup>(the argument clinic)</sup>]], 07:17, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

:::I have generally gone with the +W=D-L format, because the ''Oxford Companion'' uses that format. I think Bubba73 has a reasonable suggestion of how to make that more understandable to those who don't understand the convention. Another thing is that even though the format is common in North American result tables, I really don't like putting the number of draws after the number of losses, for the same reason I dislike the MM-DD-YYYY convention. A draw is a result between a win and a loss, so the draw figure should be in the middle. (OK, my European bias is showing here, so I'll shut up now.) [[User:Sjakkalle|Sjakkalle]] [[User talk:Sjakkalle|<small>(Check!)</small>]] 08:09, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
::::Au contraire. This American agrees. (And yes, our American month/day/year is illogical, too.) [[User:Krakatoa|Krakatoa]] ([[User talk:Krakatoa|talk]]) 08:35, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

== [[Wikipedia:Templates for discussion|Nomination for deletion]] of [[:Template:{{ucfirst:Chess_position}}]] ==

[[File:Nuvola_apps_important.svg|30px]][[Template:{{ucfirst:Chess_position}}]] has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at [[Wikipedia:Templates for discussion#Template:{{ucfirst:Chess_position}}|the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page]]. Thank you.<!--Template:Tfdnotice--> [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 00:33, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
== Alexandra Obolentseva ==

What are opinions about [[Alexandra Obolentseva]]?  It was created by a single-purpose account.  [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|<sup>(the argument clinic)</sup>]], 05:35, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
:It's an excellent start. [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 05:59, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
::It's a nicely done article, although I have no idea whether the Russian-language references support the propositions for which they're cited, and suspect that the author is not a disinterested party. Apparently Obolentseva will be playing in the World Youth Championships later this month. The FIDE link reflects that she doesn't have a FIDE rating yet. After the tournament, she'll have a FIDE rating and we can see how she's done (and thus get a better idea how notable or non-notable she is). My inclination would be to wait until after that tournament to consider whether an AfD or something similar is warranted. [[User:Krakatoa|Krakatoa]] ([[User talk:Krakatoa|talk]]) 06:06, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

::: OK, that is what I was wondering.  We usually delete players that are restricted by country, age, and sex.  [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|<sup>(the argument clinic)</sup>]], 06:08, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
:::: True - although if she wins the thing and thereby becomes the World Girls' Under-8 Champion, I would think she would have a good claim to notability. So IMO we might as well wait until the end of the month to see what happens. [[User:Krakatoa|Krakatoa]] ([[User talk:Krakatoa|talk]]) 06:26, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
::::: You doubters! Grandmattster would have us move her to mid important quite soon. Her only issue is playing in junior tournaments means her opponents are mainly not Fide rated. She has nine Fide rated games so far.  Not long and she'll have a Fide rating. [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 11:22, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
::::::In August 17, 2009 the article [[ru:Оболенцева, Александра Сергеевна|Оболенцева, Александра Сергеевна]] was [http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BF%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B8%D1%8F:%D0%9A_%D1%83%D0%B4%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8E/9_%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B3%D1%83%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0_2009#.D0.9E.D0.B1.D0.BE.D0.BB.D0.B5.D0.BD.D1.86.D0.B5.D0.B2.D0.B0.2C_.D0.90.D0.BB.D0.B5.D0.BA.D1.81.D0.B0.D0.BD.D0.B4.D1.80.D0.B0_.D0.A1.D0.B5.D1.80.D0.B3.D0.B5.D0.B5.D0.B2.D0.BD.D0.B0 deleted] in Russian Wikipedia. Alexandra is very good and promising girl, but so far not notable enough for Wikipedia. But I agree with Krakatoa: let's wait until the end of the championship. --[[User:MrsHudson|MrsHudson]] ([[User talk:MrsHudson|talk]]) 13:47, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

::::::: [http://www.sasha.su/index.php?content=chess&lg=en Her website] says that she is 3rd category.  I think that is roughly equivalent to USCF class C.  [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|<sup>(the argument clinic)</sup>]], 03:30, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

::::::: [[Cécile Haussernot]] is a similar player, currently under AfD.  [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|<sup>(the argument clinic)</sup>]], 03:43, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

== George H. D. Gossip - technical assistance needed ==

[[George H. D. Gossip]] (recently nominated for [[Wikipedia:Today%27s_featured_article/requests#December_6|Today's featured article]]) uses the format of alternating images left and right. I added another photograph, with the result that I have to flip some images from left to right, and vice versa, to maintain the alternation. In the last section, there are two diagrams on the right, followed further down in the section by two diagrams on the left. I have tried to flip them (putting the right diagrams on the left, and the left diagrams on the right). Unfortunately, I can't figure out how to do this. Can someone more technically adept than I help with this? Thanks! [[User:Krakatoa|Krakatoa]] ([[User talk:Krakatoa|talk]]) 06:19, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
: I have switched them around. Regards [[User:Voorlandt|Voorlandt]] ([[User talk:Voorlandt|talk]]) 09:07, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
:: Thank you! Thanks also for the image of the ''International Chess Magazine'' you uploaded to the Wikimedia Commons, my addition of which to the article caused the problem in the first place. [[User:Krakatoa|Krakatoa]] ([[User talk:Krakatoa|talk]]) 09:20, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
== Importance ==

I can understand why we need to assess articles by quality: thus becomes clear which of them should be improved, but I absolutely do not understand why we need to classify articles by "top" or "low" importantce". A grandmaster, who devoted all his life to chess, would be disheartened to know that Wikipedia consider him as low important. --[[User:MrsHudson|MrsHudson]] ([[User talk:MrsHudson|talk]]) 05:00, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

: Some grandmasters are more important than others, for instance Kasparov versus hundreds of GMs I've never heard of.  Even if they are of low importance, they are still notable enough to have an article.  [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|<sup>(the argument clinic)</sup>]], 05:46, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

::The world seems to discover topics faster than WP editors can article on them. So we need to agree priorities, to use our limited resources in the right places - this applies to every topic, not chess or GMs. Of course there's a get-out clause - WP is a volunteer effort, so you can write articles on anything you like, provided it complies with [[WP:NOTABILITY]], [[WP:NPOV]], [[WP:COPYVIO]], [[WP:BLP]] and a few other policies that [[User:MrsHudson|MrsHudson]] probably never needs to think about. [[User:Philcha|Philcha]] ([[User talk:Philcha|talk]]) 08:01, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

: The word importance is [[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Council/Assessment_working_group#Importance_vs_Priority|really misleading]] as it implies the article has low importance, however that is not so as it is a priority scale for the wikiproject. <s>It is better to use the word 'Priority'</s>, several wikiprojects [[Template:WikiProject_Economics|WikiProject Economics]], [[Template:WikiProject_British_Royalty|British Royalty]]  have changed over to the word priority so that it's clearer. [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 15:06, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

::An ordinary reader of Wikipedia rarely visits discussion pages and makes conclusions about who is more important Kasparov or Lobron himself. Hence such classifications are made for the editors. So my question is: why do we need to place Grandmaster "A" at a higher rung than Grandmaster "B"? What does it give us? How does it help us to improve the chess section of Wikipedia? Exept of Nietzschean separation of people on "important" and "unimportant", I do not see anything. --[[User:MrsHudson|MrsHudson]] ([[User talk:MrsHudson|talk]]) 15:08, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

:::Classifying the grandmasters allow us to easily spot those whose articles should be improved (e.g. Kasparov) before others (e.g. an obscure GM no one has ever heard of). [[User:SyG|SyG]] ([[User talk:SyG|talk]]) 09:05, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

::::I disagree with this point of view. Have a look [http://toolserver.org/~soxred93/topedits/index.php?name=MrsHudson&namespace=0 here] :how many of almost 5000 edits related to Top or High-Importance articles? Editors mainly work on what interests them. --[[User:MrsHudson|MrsHudson]] ([[User talk:MrsHudson|talk]]) 12:30, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

::::: There are two problems with that: (1) those are on;y edits by you, and (2) relatively few of the articles are marked top or high importance (215 out of 3252 - 6.6%).  [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|<sup>(the argument clinic)</sup>]], 21:53, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

::Thanks, [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]]. Have we discussed "priority" vs "importance" before? --[[User:Philcha|Philcha]] ([[User talk:Philcha|talk]]) 15:36, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

:::Not to my knowledge. [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 16:19, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

::::I'm not sure how many GMs cry in their beer because we've rated them Low-Importance, but changing the terminology from "Importance" to "Priority" makes sense to me. [[User:Krakatoa|Krakatoa]] ([[User talk:Krakatoa|talk]]) 09:55, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

:::::Priority comes with it's own problem. An article that is FA may no longer be a prioirity as such. One might see improving stubs as more useful then improving an already FA class article.  [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 14:55, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Chess players like [[Vladimir Alatortsev]], [[Lev Alburt]], [[Nana Alexandria]], [[Vladimir Bagirov]], [[Elisabeth Bykova]] '''(!!!)''', [[Murray Chandler]], [[Larry Christiansen]], [[Victor Ciocâltea]] and many others are rated as Low-Important. Something is rotten in the state of Denmark. --[[User:MrsHudson|MrsHudson]] ([[User talk:MrsHudson|talk]]) 13:07, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
: I agree, also if you look at the number of interwiki's (other wikipedias having an article about them), these are all quite high. Low importance articles typically have 0-2 interwiki's. I say, go ahead an reassess them [[User:Voorlandt|Voorlandt]] ([[User talk:Voorlandt|talk]]) 23:56, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

:As Krakatoa alludes, the grandmasters themselves won't know and won't care and this is also the case for occasional or even regular users of Wikipedia who are not editors in any meaningful sense. To me, the whole rating exercise seems quite an arbitrary and academic exercise; MrsHudson is quite correct in saying that many ratings are blatantly wrong, understandably so, given that the average assessor is not necessarily expert enough to make an accurate assessment, but perhaps more fundamentally, the average editor isn't paying any attention anyway. They almost always write about things they know about or are interested in, regardless of whether it is important or needs improving. If you look back at the Wikiproject Chess 'Articles to create' section from a year ago, virtually nothing has changed - these are suggestions for important, outstanding articles, yet editors would rather dot an 'i' or cross a 't' on the already competent articles than attempt to fill in the gaping voids. This is not a criticism; we all have limited time available, information is more accessible for Kasparov than for Lobron and of course cherry-picking is inevitable when dealing with volunteer labour - but I believe it does highlight the futility of taking the rating system too seriously. [[User:Brittle heaven|Brittle heaven]] ([[User talk:Brittle heaven|talk]]) 13:50, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
::: Regarding the 'Articles to Create', you can knock [[Louis Eichborn|the best player ever]] off the list. [[User:Fletch79|Fletch79]] ([[User talk:Fletch79|talk]]) 22:52, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
:: I agree very much with this! I check daily my personal watchlist, with over 800 chess articles, and the majority of the changes in the past half year seem to related with assessing the articles (or bot edits). Imo this is a bit a waist of time. All in all, I think the wikiproject chess is slowing down compared to what it was. I don't have time to create new articles or expand existing ones, and I guess this is the case for many other members. I hope this is just temporary, and we get new people like MrsHudson, who add content! [[User:Voorlandt|Voorlandt]] ([[User talk:Voorlandt|talk]]) 14:46, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
:: I agree with [[User:Brittle heaven|Brittle heaven]] to not take the rating system too seriously. I've used it in helpful ways; for example focusing on which Chess players to add info boxes for but in general it's not worth thinking to much about. I would encourage people to [[wp:bold|change]] individual ratings if they believe it is to be different from the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Chess/Assessment#Importance_scale|importance scale]].  It's no big deal. [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 15:06, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
*Going back to an initial remark that I've been researching. [[User:MrsHudson|MrsHudson]] -"I absolutely do not understand why we need to classify articles by "top" or "low" importantce". The classification system was setup by the [[Wikipedia:Version_1.0_Editorial_Team|Editorial Team]] whose purpose is in publishing sets of articles in print, CD, DVD - for example to [http://schools-wikipedia.org/ schools] and offline articles. To do so they had to identify which articles are important as paper and CD's are not infinite. They have various methods to work out importance but one thing that was identified is that wikiprojects have more knowledge about which articles are the important ones in a given subject then some general criteria. So that resulted to each wikiprojects being encouraged to assess there own articles. In 2008 [[Wikipedia:Version 0.7]] was complete with 31,000 wikipedia articles being selected, of which [[Wikipedia:0.7/0.7index/Sports_and_games#Chess|sixty-nine where chess articles]]. [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 16:08, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
::For anyone as interested in the article selection and scoring as me then see [[Wikipedia:Version_1.0_Editorial_Team/SelectionBot|SelectionBot scoring]]. [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 16:35, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
:::Interesting - thanks for that. Nice to see that chess outnumbered the entries allocated to golf, cricket, fishing, cycling etc. From a quick glance, the only weakness in the selection of 69 chess articles that I noticed (and I know this is very subjective) is the total absence of any queen pawn openings - i.e. no QGD, KI etc. despite the inclusion of the English, Lopez, French, Sicilian etc. Presumably when these are put on DVD all of the wikilinks are effectively lost - it seems a shame to remove one of Wikipedia's finest features? Or am I missing something? [[User:Brittle heaven|Brittle heaven]] ([[User talk:Brittle heaven|talk]]) 17:12, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
::::Not all wikilinks are lost, only those to others articles that are not included. You can look online at an [http://schools-wikipedia.org/wp/c/Chess.htm old version(0.5)], you can see some of the wikilinks are preserved but not many. [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 17:33, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
::::SelectionBot selected [[English Opening]] over [[QGD]] and [[King's Indian Defence]] because despite the importance and quality being similiar English Opening has more [[Wikipedia:InterWikimedia links|Interwiki links]], more [[Wikilinks#Wikilinks|Internal links]] and more [http://toolserver.org/~alexz/pop/view.php?proj=chess&month=Oct09&limit=500 daily views]. [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 18:33, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

== FEN with the diagrams ==

On the [[Zugzwang]] talk page a user suggests putting FEN with the diagrams.  Of course, if we do it there, we should do it in many places.  It is not a bad idea but it would be a lot of work.  What do you think?  [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|<sup>(the argument clinic)</sup>]], 21:19, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
:Discussion from [[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Chess/Archive_8#Chess_Enhancements|before]]. Would be nice to have FEN as an option somehow. Unfortunately the [[Template:FEN]] has already been used. [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 01:13, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

:: If it would be OK for the FEN to be in the caption of the diagram, with an hour or two of work I could alter my [[User:Bubba73#Program_to_generate_Wikipedia_chess_diagrams|Program to generate Wikipedia chess diagrams]] so that you could edit the article, cut the diagram and paste it into my program.  It could then add the FEN to the caption and you could paste it back.  That would take probably less than 10 seconds per diagram.  Or we could have a different name for the template (I don't know how the templates work) and my program could generate the FEN and put it into the template and we could paste them into the article. [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|<sup>(the argument clinic)</sup>]], 02:55, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

:::Two questions. Is the full [[FEN]] required, like "rnbqkbnr/pp1ppppp/8/2p5/4P3/5N2/PPPP1PPP/RNBQKB1R b KQkq - 1 2", if so how would the [[User:Bubba73#Program_to_generate_Wikipedia_chess_diagrams|Program to generate Wikipedia chess diagrams]] handle the parts other then the piece position. Once we have the full(?) [[FEN]] how do we display it? The objection [[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Chess/Archive_8#Chess_Enhancements|before]] when including it like a caption under the [[Template:Chess_diagram|chess diagram]] meant that it causes display issues. [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 03:05, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

:::: You're right.  It is easy to get the FEN of the pieces from the diagram, but it wouldn't get anything else.  The user would have to enter that info into the program, say enter the move number and check boxes "white to move", "white queenside castling OK", etc.  And then there are still the display issues.  [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|<sup>(the argument clinic)</sup>]], 03:09, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

:::::{{User:SunCreator/FEN|rnbqkbnr/pp1ppppp/8/2p5/4P3/5N2/PPPP1PPP/RNBQKB1R b KQkq - 1 2}}
:::::Because of the display issue. I wonder if a seperate FEN display is suitable, it would not be added automatically but rather seperately to diagrams that required them. 03:26, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
== [[Wikipedia:Books/Chess variants]] ==

Didn't even know such a thing as Wikpedia books existed. [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 00:33, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
:I did not know either ! It kind of sounds redundant with Wikibooks. Maybe we should try to create a Wikipedia book on chess ? [[User:SyG|SyG]] ([[User talk:SyG|talk]]) 09:23, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
::Would be a good long term objective. With [[Wikipedia_talk:Books/Chess_variants|chess diagram]] display in pdf issue being resoved also. [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 14:06, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
: Wikipedia books is great and is very different from Wikibooks. WIkipediabooks is just a collection of articles from wikipedia (which has to satisfy all wikipedia rules, notability, wikipedia is not a manual, etc..). I can envisage, that we can make a book on chess openings, world championships, chess tournaments, etc... in the same way, until all chess articles are covered. In the end, what you get is a chess encyclopedia in different parts, covering all of wikipedia's chess articles and which automatically updates :). I very much like the pdf availability. Chess variants is already a wopping 650+ pages. [[User:Voorlandt|Voorlandt]] ([[User talk:Voorlandt|talk]]) 09:56, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

== K. K. Karanja ==

[[K. K. Karanja]] may have an edit war starting.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/66.177.193.40|66.177.193.40]] ([[User talk:66.177.193.40|talk]]) 00:24, 21 November 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
== Alekhine, Esnaola, and Vitoria ==

The [[Alexander Alekhine]] article says "In 1941, he ... won a mini-match with Benito Lopez Esnaola in Vitoria".  Problem is, it doesn't say ''which'' [[Vitoria]] (surely it's the one in Spain, but I don't want to guess).  I've searched the web and can't find anything.  Could someone here answer this for me?  Thanks, --[[User:JaGa|<b><span style="color:#990000;">Ja</span><span style="color:#000099;">Ga</span></b>]][[User_talk:JaGa|<span style="color:#000000; font-size:small;"><sup>talk</sup></span>]] 14:36, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
::Would most likely be [[Vitoria, Spain]] but can't find any source, not even mention in Spanish Wiki. Perhaps remove that part? [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 22:56, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
:::Thanks.  I think I will, seeing as there seems to be no source for it.  I'm glad I checked here first, though, in case I was just missing something. --[[User:JaGa|<b><span style="color:#990000;">Ja</span><span style="color:#000099;">Ga</span></b>]][[User_talk:JaGa|<span style="color:#000000; font-size:small;"><sup>talk</sup></span>]] 12:08, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

== Canadian grandmasters? ==

Just came across this: [[Canadian Chess Grandmasters]]
There doesn't seem to be a great deal of point to the article, and the information it contains is almost all in the [[list of chess grandmasters]] article.  Any thoughts as to whether it should be deleted? [[User:Fletch79|Fletch79]] ([[User talk:Fletch79|talk]]) 22:23, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
: Agree, can be readily deleted I would think [[User:Voorlandt|Voorlandt]] ([[User talk:Voorlandt|talk]]) 22:31, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
::Merge it into(redirect it to) [[List of chess grandmasters]]. [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 22:54, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
:::Just wondering whether there's any point in merging / redirecting?  No other articles link to it. [[User:Fletch79|Fletch79]] ([[User talk:Fletch79|talk]]) 22:59, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
::::[http://stats.grok.se/en/200910/Canadian_Chess_Grandmasters Somebody] looks at it. It might be linked from outside wikipedia, or people maybe find it while searching in Google, whatever the reason changing it to a redirect seems a helpful solution. After all, the article creator felt that was appropriate article naming in the first place, so others may attempt to arrive at the article by the same thinking. [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 23:09, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
:::::Should just be redirected to [[List of chess grandmasters]]. That's the simplest solution.--[[User:Pawnkingthree|Pawnkingthree]] ([[User talk:Pawnkingthree|talk]]) 02:45, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
== Addition of 1976 US National Chess League to United States Chess League page ==

First post on a discussion page! I would like to suggest an addition to the United States Chess League page.

Prior to the creation of the United States Chess League in 2005, a previous attempt to start a United States chess league occurred back in 1976, with the formation of the "National Chess League". 9 teams participated, finishing in the following order

1. Washington Plumbers
2. New York Threats
3. Cleveland Kinghunters
4. San Francisco Dragons
5. Los Angeles Stauntons
6. Miama Capablancas
7. Chicago Prairie Dogs
8. Boston 64s
9. Houston Helpmates

In the pre-Internet era, moves were made by phone calls.

The league lasted up the late 1970's, but I have no other information

[[User:GrahamClayton|GrahamClayton]] ([[User talk:GrahamClayton|talk]]) 09:16, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

== David mates (good for him...) ==

Could you please have a look at [[David and Goliath mate]] and [[Damiano's bishop mate]] and tell me if you think these are notable enough to be worth an article ? I would suggest to delete the former and merge the latter in [[Damiano's mate]]. [[User:SyG|SyG]] ([[User talk:SyG|talk]]) 16:34, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

: I agree.  The D&G mate is not described well enough and I don't know if anyone uses that term other than Schiller. The bishop mate is not exactly the same as [[Damiano's mate]] but it is close enough that they could be covered in the same article. [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|<sup>(the argument clinic)</sup>]], 17:56, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

: The creator of those articles has added several other mates, based on the terminology of Schiller's book.  I'll make him aware of this project.  [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|<sup>(the argument clinic)</sup>]], 17:59, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
*[[Swallow's tail mate]]
*[[Suffocation mate]]
*[[Pillsbury's mate]]
*[[Opera mate]]
*[[Réti's mate]]
*[[Morphy's mate]]
*[[Max Lange's mate]]
*[[Lolli's mate]]
*[[H-file mate]]
*[[Hook mate]]
*[[Dovetail mate]]
*[[Double bishop mate]]
*[[Corner mate]]
*[[Corridor mate]] - now redirects to [[Back rank checkmate]], <s>which indicates that Schiller is using his own terminology </s>
*[[Cozio's mate]]
*[[Blackburne's mate]]
*[[Arabian mate]]
*[[Anderssen's mate]]
*[[Anastasia's mate]]
*[[Greco's mate]] [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|<sup>(the argument clinic)</sup>]], 18:36, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
:Corridor mate is NOT made up by Schiller. See [http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chesscollection?cid=1014534 Mating patterns: corridor mates] and [http://books.google.com/books?id=hmBfzQBolzMC&pg=PA69&lpg=PA69&dq=Corridor+mate&source=bl&ots=MyRlfme-LL&sig=25V-nu4E0TptY1089-BgAqx7uMY&hl=en&ei=ZW4RS97SHpDLjAfK78HZAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBQQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Corridor%20mate&f=false The Art of Checkmate by Georges Renaud, Victor Kahn - 1926]. [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 18:43, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
::There seems to be various sources for all the above except perhaps(h-file and hook mate) maybe they can all be merged into a article like [[Mating patterns]] or something similiar. Even so, some of them [[Anastasia's mate]] for example, would perhaps have enough notability to stand on it's own. [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 19:13, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
::: An article [[Checkmating patterns]] would be a good idea to contain them because there probably isn't enough to say about most of the individual ones.  A second source for the names would be good.  [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|<sup>(the argument clinic)</sup>]], 19:47, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
::: Also, none of these have the chess project tag.  [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|<sup>(the argument clinic)</sup>]], 19:56, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

:::: (edit conflict) [http://books.google.com/books?id=hmBfzQBolzMC&pg=PA69&lpg=PA69&dq=Corridor+mate&source=bl&ots=MyRlfme-LL&sig=25V-nu4E0TptY1089-BgAqx7uMY&hl=en&ei=ZW4RS97SHpDLjAfK78HZAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBQQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Corridor%20mate&f=false The Art of Checkmate by Georges Renaud, Victor Kahn - 1926] covers [[Corridor mate]], [[Greco's mate]], [[Anastasia's mate]], [[Blackburne's mate]], [[Anderssen's mate]], [[Pillsbury's mate]], [[Morphy's mate]], [[Arabian mate]]. [http://books.google.com/books?id=IopUJv7-_NYC&pg=PA96&dq=R%C3%A9ti%27s+mate+chess#v=onepage&q=R%C3%A9ti%27s%20mate%20chess&f=false Chess for dummies By James Eade] covers [[Réti's mate]]. [http://mysite.verizon.net/webmasterfrank/patterns/names.htm Dynamic Chess-Most Common Mates] includes [[Max Lange's mate]] and [[Swallow's tail mate]]. [[Cozio's mate]] [http://wisepawn.gilachess.com/?m=200711 here]. [[Double bishop mate]] [http://blog.chess.com/Phobetor/double-bishop-mate here]. [[Lolli's mate]] [http://www.queensac.com/lollimate.html here] and [http://blog.chess.com/Roberto1956/lollis-mate here]. [[Suffocation mate]] [http://www.usefulchess.com/tactics/checkmate.htm here] and [http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?subject=cute_suffocation_mate&threadid=120421 here]. [[Dovetail mate]] [http://www.chess.com/forum/view/more-puzzles/puzzle-dovetail-mate?quote_id=1385326 here] and [http://www.chessedinburgh.co.uk/chandlerarticle.php?ChandID=165 here]. That leaves [[H-file mate]], [[Hook mate]] and [[Opera mate]] without additional sources. [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 20:39, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

::::: Thanks, so I was at least mostly wrong in assuming Schiller made up those names.  [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|<sup>(the argument clinic)</sup>]], 20:53, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

:::::: I think the [[Opera mate]] is mate from the Opera game given that [http://www.chess.com/article/view/mating-patterns-3-rtis-mate this] refers to Morphy's famous Opera Mate pattern. Personally I think the game is famous but not the pattern. [http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:VogzzPpac7QJ:yildiz.brinkster.net/cevdetchess/tr/admin/editor/sayfalar/glossary.htm This page] lists in it's glossary [[Opera mate]], [[H-file mate]], [[Hook mate]]. So they all exist in some fashion. [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 21:19, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
:::::::I attempted to do a google search for all the mates listed to see if they are generally in fact called that or if that was just what Schiller was calling them. I didn't add an article on the mate if I couldn't find a second mentioning of it. Also, with regards to whether there is enough information about these mates to warrant having their own article I think there definitely is. Most of the information in the recent checkmate articles I added just covers the basic information. There is much more information that can be added though. For nearly all of them there is a famous chess game or chess study that talks in detail about the checkmate, detailing means of obtaining the checkmate, strategies for preventing it, famous players who commonly use it. Just explaining these things can really make for a lengthy article on each of these checkmates. Also, simply having an article called "Checkmating patterns" would seem kinda redundant since there is already an article titled [[Checkmate]] that kind of sort of covers checkmating patterns a bit, but just not in a completely systematic way. With regards to the Hook mate I vaguely remember reading a Chess Life article on this mate a long time ago. If somebody has past issues of it they might try to find it.[[User:Chhe|Chhe]] ([[User talk:Chhe|talk]]) 23:28, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
PS. When I added the Swallow's tail mate I was a bit uncertain as to how it was most commonly phrased. Schiller listed it as "Swallows-Tail mate", while other sources I saw listed it as "Swallowstail mate", "Swallow's tail mate", and "Swallow's mate". I used "Swallow's tail mate" though since that seemed to be the most commonly used.[[User:Chhe|Chhe]] ([[User talk:Chhe|talk]]) 23:35, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

:Nobody uses those terms, ever, really.  One source is generally not enough for a wikipedia article ([[WP:N]] suggests multiple independent sources) and Schiller is generally a poor source for anything about chess (much of what he writes appears to be very idiosyncratic and few respected chess writers follow his lead especially on terminology).  Creating articles for these gives them prominence they don't have in the chess world.  My opinion is that they should all be removed, but I'm interested in what [[User:Krakatoa|Krakatoa]] thinks about them. 04:06, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

::You are right that these are very obscure terms, and that Schiller likes making up his own exotic names for things. ([[List of chess openings named after animals]], anyone?) [[Boden's mate]], the [[smothered mate]], the [[back-rank mate]], [[Légal's mate]], and the [[epaulette mate]] may be the only mating patterns that have widely known names. No one says, "I was going for Anderssen's mate." I have Renaud and Kahn's book, which I read about 30 years ago, and the only one of these terms I recalled was Anastasia's mate. However, if one can get multiple reliable sources for these weird names, then I suppose those are sufficient to support articles. If it turns out that there is not much to write about some of them, then Bubba73's idea of putting them in an article on [[checkmating patterns]] strikes me as a good one. [[User:Krakatoa|Krakatoa]] ([[User talk:Krakatoa|talk]]) 06:51, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

::: I've been playing chess for 43 years and I don't remember hearing of those names.  But it might be nice to illustrate those from actual master games.  I'm also skeptical of having Schiller as the main source.  [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|<sup>(the argument clinic)</sup>]], 07:00, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

:::: Renaud and Kahn's book has nice examples from actual play of the mates they cover. [[User:Krakatoa|Krakatoa]] ([[User talk:Krakatoa|talk]]) 09:06, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
== [[64 (chess magazine)]] ==

I believe the correct translation is [[64 - Chess Review]]. -- [[User:I Do Care|I Do Care]] ([[User talk:I Do Care|talk]]) 10:58, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
:Why do you think this? Source? [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 12:52, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

::This is official website: http://www.64.ru/?/en/ -- [[User:I Do Care|I Do Care]] ([[User talk:I Do Care|talk]]) 15:41, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

:::Think you are reading to much from the page title. Chess review is a description not the name.  [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 15:50, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

::::Russian wiki says it's [[:ru:64 — Шахматное обозрение|64 — Шахматное обозрение]]. Also in the main page of the website there is following: "In 11-th time the russian chess magazine '''«64 Chess Review»''' (the editor-in-chief Alexander Roshal) has summed up traditional competition «Oscar»." -- [[User:I Do Care|I Do Care]] ([[User talk:I Do Care|talk]]) 16:20, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

:::::It's not usual for websites to have a name then a description of the site in the title.  Same principle applied to English, Russian or any language. Given then the article gives references that call it '64' unless some other [[WP:RS]] refers to it otherwise then in my view it is still called '64'. [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 23:07, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

== Round-robin tournament and Swiss-system tournament ==

[[Round-robin tournament]] and [[Swiss-system tournament]] have been removed from this project and added to the sports and to the games projects.  Do you agree with this?  [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|<sup>(the argument clinic)</sup>]], 21:33, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

:I would think that any article that mentions chess would come under the Chess Wikiproject as it's members would be likely be interested and willing to contribute to it's improvement. So no I don't agree with it's removal. However, some editors have other ideas. The [[Board game]] article which has currently ''twelve occurances'' of the word ''chess'' in it, was added recently having spotted [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Board_game&diff=prev&oldid=326583328 dubious chess related OR/POV], which I thought chess members would like to keep an eye on. Much to my surprise, [[User:SyG|SyG]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ABoard_game&action=historysubmit&diff=328404512&oldid=326590123 then removed the article from Chess Wikiproject]. So perhaps there is something I am not aware of. [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 23:01, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

:: At first I thought they should be restored to this project, but the round-robin article has very little chess content.  The Swiss system article has a little more, but not much - chess is mentioned mainly in passing.  [[Tie-breaking in Swiss-system tournaments]] has more about chess but it is still in the project.  So I'd like for more people to give opinions on this, I'm on the fence.  [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|<sup>(the argument clinic)</sup>]], 23:39, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

:::I assume the principle of moving it only to the parent project could be applied to [[Tie-breaking in Swiss-system tournaments]], [[Elo rating system]] and others. I don't like that at all. Why can't the WikiProject Chess decide on it's own articles? [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 23:43, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

::::The chess project can decide which articles it wants as part of the project.  I don't think anyone else can dictate that.  One might more reasonably ask why [[Humphrey Bogart]] is in the chess project, but that isn't my decision either.  [[User:Quale|Quale]] ([[User talk:Quale|talk]]) 02:14, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
== Notable? ==

[[Zoran Lazetich]] - Is he notable enough? --[[User:MrsHudson|MrsHudson]] ([[User talk:MrsHudson|talk]]) 14:07, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
:It doesn't look like it. We have deleted as non-notable at least two people with the [[FIDE Master]] title (Charles Weldon and Boris Baczynskyj (sp.?)), and Lazetich apparently doesn't even have that. Although he has the Life Master title, his current FIDE rating is indicated as being below 2200. There's no indication that he's ever written anything. His tournament results (Connecticut State Champion once, and Sacramento City Champion several times) are only mildly impressive, and there's no indication that any of his students have become grandmasters or anything like that. Unless there's more that the article doesn't reflect, I would say he is no more notable than [[Pete Karagianis]], who was just deleted by unanimous (8-0 or so) vote. (I realize it's not a "vote" technically, but you know what I mean.) Karagianis had been Iowa State Champion a couple of times and had written some articles. The notability of someone like [[Viktors Pupols]] is questionable to my mind, but at least Pupols once beat [[Bobby Fischer]], and [[Larry Parr]] wrote a book about Pupols. The article indicates nothing notable about Lazetich. [[User:Krakatoa|Krakatoa]] ([[User talk:Krakatoa|talk]]) 14:57, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
::Doesn't seem notable. When was this person born? FIDE rating might be okay if they are now 70-80 years old for example. [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 15:02, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
:::He was born in 1956. --[[User:MrsHudson|MrsHudson]] ([[User talk:MrsHudson|talk]]) 15:17, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
::::I have sent it to AfD. [[User:SyG|SyG]] ([[User talk:SyG|talk]]) 09:14, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
:::::It's been deleted. [[User:Krakatoa|Krakatoa]] ([[User talk:Krakatoa|talk]]) 18:34, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

== Bogart and others (mentioned above) ==

I added Bogart because he was a chess player (expert level it is said) and organized tournaments.  I added it to the Bottom importance category when I thought they would be articles that had something about chess but would not be in the chess project.  [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|<sup>(the argument clinic)</sup>]], 02:17, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Bogart has a section with two paragraphs about chess.  However, I would be in favor of removing from the project most of the articles about people for whom the chess content is a small part of their bio, for instance
*[[Jacqueline Piatigorsky]]
*[[Stanley Kubrick]]
*[[George C. Scott]]
*[[Aleister Crowley]]
and probalbly
*[[Fred Waitzkin]] and others.

And although [[Marcel Duchamp]] was primarily an artist, I think his chess contributions are notable enough to keep his article in the project. 

I'm also in favor of removing art and litt things that have no real chess content, e.g.
*[[The Seventh Seal]]
*[[8 x 8: A Chess Sonata in 8 Movements]].

I'm also in favor of removing puzzles and problems that refer to chess pieces but otherwise have no chess content, e.g.
*[[King's graph]]
*[[eight queens puzzle]]
*[[knight's tour]]
*[[Wheat and chessboard problem]], etc. 

And also
* [[Beersheba]], where the only thing about chess is a mention that it has the highest per-capita population of GMs.  [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|<sup>(the argument clinic)</sup>]], 18:18, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

: If the project tag is removed from them they could still stay on the index of articles that mention chess.  [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|<sup>(the argument clinic)</sup>]], 18:23, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

::See also previous discussion [[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Chess/Archive_16#Removing_bottom_class_articles_from_the_index_of_chess_articles_-_I_object|Removing bottom class articles from the index of chess articles - I object]] started by [[User:Voorlandt|Voorlandt]] . [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 18:30, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
::Didn't we come up with the Bottom Importance category for precisely these kind of articles? What else is the category for? What benefit is there in removing them?--[[User:Pawnkingthree|Pawnkingthree]] ([[User talk:Pawnkingthree|talk]]) 23:50, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

::: Yes we did, about 6 months ago.  But I don't think it has worked very well.  It has added work with no real benefit in my opinion. [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|<sup>(the argument clinic)</sup>]], 02:43, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

::::Actually despite my kvetching it doesn't matter too much to me whether marginal articles are included in the project or not, although the important tournament system articles that sparked this discussion should be in.  (Of Bubba73's list I would argue to keep Jacqueline Piatigorsky and remove the rest, although the chess puzzles and math related articles could probably stay too.)  A matter of greater practical importance to me is whether articles of minor interest are included on [[Index of chess articles]] as I use that as a watch list.  Often [[Special:RecentChangesLinked/Index of chess articles]] is clogged with edits having nothing to do with chess.  This is acceptable for [[Benjamin Franklin]] who was important in the early history of chess in the US, but annoying for articles on celebrity chess hobbyists and nearly intolerable for [[Aleister Crowley]].  The Crowley edits never have anything to do with chess, and the only reason I can see that he's on the list are his own bullshit claims to have beaten [[Joseph Henry Blackburne|Blackburne]] and that he was such a great chess player that he could have become world champion had he deigned to.  [[Marion Robert Morrison]] was an avid chess player and one of the most famous people of the 20th century, but I'm very glad he's not on the index of chess articles.  If we included him we might just as well include [[Roger Ebert|the Pulitzer Prize-winning movie critic]] who beat him in an off-hand game.  [[User:Quale|Quale]] ([[User talk:Quale|talk]]) 05:40, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

::::: Actually that is really my main beef too - the index of articles.  I have dozens of chess articles on my watchlist and I try to check all changes to those by editors I don't recognize.  I have a desktop icon for that and a desktop icon for changes to articles in the index.  Whenever I have time I check it too.  You are right about it being clogged with edits that have nothing to do with chess.  You mention [[Aleister Crowley]] but I'm also tired of seeing [[The Seventh Seal]].  [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|<sup>(the argument clinic)</sup>]], 06:17, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

:::::: I have edited the index of chess articles, and now the bottom chess articles are just linked, rather than inbedded. So now these wont show up on the watchlist anymore. I very much hope we can keep the chess puzzles part of the wikiproject chess (I dont care at what importance level - can be bottom). [[User:Voorlandt|Voorlandt]] ([[User talk:Voorlandt|talk]]) 09:51, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
== A more accessible chess diagram template ==

I've made some edits to one of the {{tl|chess diagram}} templates to try and improve it's accessibility by setting the [[WP:ALT|alt text]] to better values. The code is at [[User:H2g2bob/chess diagram small]], and I've also got [[User:H2g2bob/chess diagram test case]] to compare with the normal version.

They should look identical unless you've disabled images, are using a screen reader or doing some other magic. But in [[Lynx (web browser)|lynx]], the start is displayed as:
   Start of chess board.
   a8 black rook. d8 black queen. f8 black rook. g8 black king.
   a7 black pawn. b7 black pawn. e7 black pawn. f7 black pawn. g7 black
   bishop. h7 black pawn.
rather than the current template's:
   Chess zhor 22.png
   Chess zver 22.png a8 rd b8 c8 d8 qd e8 f8 rd g8 kd h8 Chess zver 22.png
   a7 pd b7 pd c7 d7 e7 pd f7 pd g7 bd h7 pd
I've only done "chess diagram small" so far, but I'm willing to do the other templates if it looks like a good idea. --[[user:h2g2bob|h2g2bob]] ([[user talk:h2g2bob|talk]]) 23:20, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

: So does this help people with screen readers? [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|<sup>(the argument clinic)</sup>]], 00:00, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
:: Yes, it should do. --[[user:h2g2bob|h2g2bob]] ([[user talk:h2g2bob|talk]]) 23:30, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

::: Then that sounds like a good idea to me.  [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|<sup>(the argument clinic)</sup>]], 23:39, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

== Halloween Gambit ==

Recently there have been a few edits to [[Four Knights Game]] and [[Halloween Gambit]] which I feel cast the knight sacrifice in a better light than what published theory holds. Some of the things which worry me are:
*In [[Four Knights Game]] added just a few minutes ago: ''"However, White can mantain a good game by responding 6... Bb4! with 7. Bg5! The pin on the knight can allow white to continue with an even more powerful halloween's gambit progression."''. I have let that stay, but tagged it as "citation needed".
*Concerning Pinski's refutation in the [[Halloween Gambit]] article: ''Nevertheless, Steffen A. Jakob's chess engine Brause scored 100% after playing 9.Be3, which has led some proponents of the Halloween Gambit to question the strength of this line.'' Who are these proponents? Does a GM-strength Brause computer slaughtering lots of weaker players carry any theoretical weight?
Even Tim Krabbe's article [http://www.xs4all.nl/~timkr/tour/breeze.htm A breeze in the sleepy Four Knights Game] which interviews some of the players behind playing it acknowledge that: "objectively, after 4.Nxe5, White is probably lost". Personally, I am also very sceptical of the line's ultimate soundness, because if this ''were'' a gambit White could play with confidence that it will stand up to a sturdy Black defense, we would be seeing this gambit at 2600+ level GM tournaments, but we don't. [[User:Sjakkalle|Sjakkalle]] [[User talk:Sjakkalle|<small>(Check!)</small>]] 09:03, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
:Problem is sourcing. The line given by [[Larry Kaufman]]/Jan Pinski as 'dubious' of 5...Nc6 6.d5 Bb4! 7.dxc6 Nxe4 8.Qd4 Qe7 is equal after 9.Be3 0-0 10. Bd3 but gives white excellent practical changes. Bb4 is a faulty move for this reason and so is Kaufman's assertion, better for black is 6... Ne5 5.f4 Ng6 6.e5 Ng8 7.d6 or 5...Ng6. While [[Larry Kaufman]] sourcing is used, and especially in regards to the 'dubious' wording this article is going to be sniggered at because the line given is not dubious but okay for white. [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 11:39, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
:2600+ level GM's don't use this opening(as white) because it's not sound against 5...Ng6 or 5...Nc6 6.d5 Ne5. [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 11:43, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
::Changed the [[Four Knights Game]] text to give Euwe's refutation with 5...Ng6. [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 12:43, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
:::If that's the case Suncreator, why did you change the [[Four Knights Game]] article to say that the gambit is "aggressive"?  That was simply a bad edit as the gambit is dubious, exactly as the article said before you changed it for reasons I don't understand.  Also, a source needed for your claim that White can equalize in the Pinski line.  Your last edit, removing sourced material, is also bad.  [[User:Quale|Quale]] ([[User talk:Quale|talk]]) 19:21, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
::::I removed the dubious because the Larry Kaufman line given isn't dubious. I can't add a source for the Pinski line because I don't have one - this is why I started the previous comment with '''Problem is sourcing'''. It's just a problem between stating what is true and what is supported by sources. If your happy for the article to be false and sourced then you can leave the Kaufman line. If you want the article to be both true and sourced that you have to remove the Kaufman stuff and only use the Euwe source. [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 19:57, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
:::::I have Pinski's book, I'll be happy to look things up there on request. [[User:Sjakkalle|Sjakkalle]] [[User talk:Sjakkalle|<small>(Check!)</small>]] 11:22, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
::::::Okay, so what does Pinski's book say for Black to vary/improve and show 'dubious' if white plays the line 5...Nc6 6.d5 Bb4 7.dxc6 Nxe4 8.Qd4 Qe7 9.Be3 0-0 10.Bd3 Nxc3 11.bxc3 Ba5 12.0-0 Bb6 13.Qb4 Re8(Qxb4 14.cxb7 Bxb7 15.cxb4=) 14. Rae1 Qxb4 15.cxb4= [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 14:57, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
:::::::Pinski does not cover 9.Be3. However, according to the 365chess database, Black has won the two games which reached this position. The cited game Gaillard-Platel (2004) with 9...0-0 is a 2000 level encounter, while the [http://www.365chess.com/view_game.php?g=3498137 Sigfusson-Bellin (2007)] encounter is a 2300 level encounter which featured 9...f5. That game is also annotated by Andrew Martin, an IM, on chess.com.[http://www.chess.com/article/view/your-questions-answered-by-andrew-martin5] Also, note that citing lines which "refute" Pinski's book need to be backed up by a reliable source. [[User:Sjakkalle|Sjakkalle]] [[User talk:Sjakkalle|<small>(Check!)</small>]] 07:10, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
:::::I didn't expect to have to explain the difference between ''truth'' and ''verifiability'' as applied to wikipedia.  If you haven't read [[WP:V]], you certainly should.  If you have a [[WP:RS|reliable source]] that contradicts the Pinski/Kaufman assessment it can be used in the article, but without a source your opinion of the merits of the Pinski line does not belong.  I'm not very impressed by the success of one or more strong chess engines playing the Halloween Gambit against unknown amateurs.  These games are even worse than Sjakkalle noted earlier, as they all appear to be blitz which favors both computers and the attacking side.  [[Rybka]] defeated a GM in a match at a much slower time control while conceding pawn odds in every game, and I think that an engine should do even better in blitz against  weaker opponents.  If a chess engine played the black side of the Halloween Gambit instead and defeated many human opponents in blitz games, would you take that as evidence that the gambit was unsound for white?  There may be a language problem here and maybe the meaning of "dubious" isn't clear.  In both plain English and in its chess usage, dubious means "doubtful" or "questionable".  Unsound has a stronger connotation that could be described as something like "demonstrated to lead to a significant disadvantage".  Note that it isn't the Kaufman line that is dubious.  The Pinski/Kaufman line is fine, it is the Halloween Gambit itself which is dubious.  You probably meant something like "The Kaufman line doesn't prove that the Halloween Gambit is dubious".  [[User:Quale|Quale]] ([[User talk:Quale|talk]]) 07:27, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
== George H. D. Gossip is Today's featured article!! ==

I proposed that [[George H. D. Gossip]] be added to the list of [[Wikipedia:Today's featured article/requests/pending|requests for Today's featured article]]. It has a respectable three "points" for being today's featured article on December 6: one point because December 6 is Gossip's birthday, and two points because no similar article (i.e., no article related to chess, or any other [[board game]] for that matter) has been today's featured article within six months of the requested date. [[George H. D. Gossip]] is the only chess-related Featured Article that has not been on the main page. The others - [[Chess]], [[The Turk]], and [[First-move advantage in chess]] - have been. [[User:Krakatoa|Krakatoa]] ([[User talk:Krakatoa|talk]]) 08:34, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
:Good idea. [[George H. D. Gossip]] is not the most important of chess topics, but would be nice to have it front page. Six months later hopefully we'll have a selection of options [[Rules of Chess]], [[Bobby Fischer]], [[Wilhelm Steinitz]] and more perhaps. [[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 11:51, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
:Was not aware of the [[Wikipedia:Today's_featured_article/requests|points system]] before.  How many points are typically required?
:Dates can give an article a lot of points:
::    * Date relevant to article topic: 1 point
::    * Decennial or quinvigintennial anniversary (10-year or 25-year multiples): 2 points
::    * Semicentennial anniversary (50-year multiples): 4 points
::    * Centennial anniversary (100-year multiples): 6 points
:Here are some top dates for articles in 2010
:: 100 years -  [[World Chess Championship 1910 (Lasker-Schlechter)]]  -  unlikely to be FA. [[Emanuel Lasker]] can.
:: 100 years - [[Hamburg 1910 chess tournament]]  -  unlikely to be FA, but maybe [[Carl Schlechter]] can.
:: 50 years - [[Mikhail Tal]] became [[World Chess Champion]] May 7 1960
:: 50 years - [[World Chess Championship 1960]] - A lot of work required.
:: 50 years - [[14th Chess Olympiad]] - unlikely to be FA.
:For 2011, [[Mikhail Botvinnik]] will have a Centennial anniversary b. August 17 1911.
::[[Max Euwe]], [[Anatoly Karpov]] and [[Vasily Smyslov]] have 10-year multiples b'days.[[User:SunCreator|SunCreator]] ([[User talk:SunCreator|talk]]) 12:42, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
:::Nice list of candidates! I have now nominated [[George H. D. Gossip]] for [[Wikipedia:Today%27s_featured_article/requests|Today's featured article]]. Weigh in if you wish. [[User:Krakatoa|Krakatoa]] ([[User talk:Krakatoa|talk]]) 20:44, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
::::And '''[[Wikipedia:Today%27s_featured_article/requests#December_6|here]]''' is the place where you can express your <s>eager support</s> unbiased opinion. [[User:SyG|SyG]] ([[User talk:SyG|talk]]) 09:56, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
:::::At the moment, it has the [[Wikipedia:Today%27s_featured_article/requests#Summary_chart|most support of any of the five nominees]], even [[Homer Simpson]]. All are nominated for different days, fortunately. [[User:Krakatoa|Krakatoa]] ([[User talk:Krakatoa|talk]]) 03:05, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
(Unindent) It has been approved and will appear on the Main Page on December 6 - i.e., beginning less than a hour and twenty minutes from now! [[User:Krakatoa|Krakatoa]] ([[User talk:Krakatoa|talk]]) 22:42, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
:I see it:) Congrats.--[[User:Pawnkingthree|Pawnkingthree]] ([[User talk:Pawnkingthree|talk]]) 06:20, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
:Yeah, a tremendous achievement once again ! Kudos for Krakatoa (as would say a famous chess commentator)! [[User:SyG|SyG]] ([[User talk:SyG|talk]]) 18:46, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
::Thanks. [[User:Krakatoa|Krakatoa]] ([[User talk:Krakatoa|talk]]) 19:28, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

== Advice on London Chess Classic article ==

I've been doing a bit of editing on the [[London Chess Classic]] article, and wanted to get some advice from this WikiProject on how best to update it tomorrow, when the tournament finishes. If possible, I'd like to bring it up to a standard good enough for an [[WP:ITN|'in the news' entry]] (hopefully the result will be covered by the mainstream media in London and the UK). What I was thinking was more photos (I will be there tomorrow and will try and take some suitable pictures), and a results table, and lots more that can be added. Maybe include the game that wins the tournament best game prize? But I'm coming here for advice, either here or on the article talk page, on how best to update and expand this sort of article. [[User:Carcharoth|Carcharoth]] ([[User talk:Carcharoth|talk]]) 00:59, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
:I'm ''so'' envious that you are going to be there while I am stuck watching the internet coverage...
:If you look at some of the other articles on the other major tournaments such as the [[Tal Memorial]], [[Pearl Spring chess tournament]], and [[Corus chess tournament]], you will see that the full crosstable is usual, while giving the moves of any individual game is not. For a major tournament like this, all games will be available on sites like chessgames.com, which we have often used as an external link. At the moment, the crosstable is missing altogether, and this is the obvious item to install. Regarding photos, it would be nice to see what the room in the large open GM tournament looks like, but remember that photography in the tournament hall during the games is usually somewhat restricted, often prohibited after the first few minutes. I would also mention that Carlsen's score in this tournament has secured him first place on the next rating list, even if he loses to Short today. (Oh, and if Short does beat Carlsen today, will someone please put the article on AFD? ;-)) [[User:Sjakkalle|Sjakkalle]] [[User talk:Sjakkalle|<small>(Check!)</small>]] 07:15, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
::Great idea to get some more photos uploaded to Commons on the Share-alike 3.0 license you used before - you will probably see them used around the world on other wikipedias too! I have in the past asked the organiser if I can take photos for Wikipedia and they kindly allowed me to join the pros for that first ten minutes of frenzy in the playing area (tell them your article will give the event some extra publicity) ... not guaranteed to work though! As Sjakkalle says, images of the playing halls, giant chess set in the foyer, kids playing blitz, bookstall, Houska, Susan Lalic (probably one of the most sought after, cos we don't have any of her and her article is well overdue), Caoili, the GMs of the FIDE Open - all good. [[User:Brittle heaven|Brittle heaven]] ([[User talk:Brittle heaven|talk]]) 10:09, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
::Re crosstable; a simple alternative would be to copy the 'result only' format I used in [[EU Individual Open Chess Championship]], but given the importance of the event, a full crosstable would be better - maybe copy the format of the one used in [[San Remo 1930 chess tournament]]. To see a multitude of other chess tournament articles for ideas on layout, go to the bottom of the page [[List of strong chess tournaments]], where they are listed for ease of access. If you need any help with photo cropping/light level adjustment etc., then please let me know. [[User:Brittle heaven|Brittle heaven]] ([[User talk:Brittle heaven|talk]]) 10:39, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
::Looking briefly through, [[Hastings 1895 chess tournament]] is quite a good format - in a similar vein to the notable game section there, you could add each end of round, prize-winning 'best' game or snippet and state which got the overall brilliancy award (including occasional diagrams perhaps). Cross-referencing any analysis to an expert source would be necessary though. [[User:Brittle heaven|Brittle heaven]] ([[User talk:Brittle heaven|talk]]) 11:04, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
:::Thanks for the advice. Am looking around to see which sort of cross-table will be best. Slightly complicated by the use of Sofia rules. Did get some pictures as well, during the final round. Photography without flash was allowed during play, though the ones with flash at the beginning are still better. Wasn't able to get the other pics. Maybe another time. It was good fun being there. The finish in the Short-Carlsen game was very tense. Carlsen looked rather uncertain and nervous as his clock ran down to about 20 seconds before he played his last three moves before the time control at move 60. Seems as though he had everything under control though. Will keep an eye out for more news stories to help add to the article over the next few days. [[User:Carcharoth|Carcharoth]] ([[User talk:Carcharoth|talk]]) 00:50, 16 December 2009 (UTC)