View source for Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Anime and manga/Archive 32

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== Full Metal Panic! Pages ==

After randomly browsing anime pages, I found there are quite a few separate FMP related articles that most likely should be merged.  I'm not suggesting all of these be merged, just maybe we should have a bit of a look at them:
*[[Arm Slave]]
*[[Whispered]]
*[[Mithril (Full Metal Panic!)]]
*[[ARX-8 Laevatein]]
*[[Black Technology]]
*[[Full Metal Panic? Fumoffu!]]
*[[Full Metal Panic! The Second Raid]]
-- [[User:Highwind888|Highwind888]], the [[List of Clannad characters#Fuko Ibuki|Fuko Master]] ([[User talk:Highwind888|talk]]) 07:16, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

:Without comparing to other articles and looking for examples (I'm getting insane amounts of script errors from wikipedia...) or reading up on guidelines, I'd like to see Fumoffu and TSR retain their independance and improved where possible. TSR seems a fairly well developed article at first glance, and I think it deserves it's own article. ARX-8 could probably be merged into Arm Slave, I'm not convinced a single Arm Slave warrants it's own page (if it did why not a page for the Arbalest?). [[User:Dandy Sephy|Dandy Sephy]] ([[User talk:Dandy Sephy|talk]]) 18:26, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
::Yes, there is one for the [[ARX-7 Arbalest]], which I believe deserve to be kept (from looking at some of the Gundam related articles, and probable notability).  I did not list all of the related articles, as some (to my belief) deserves its own article (such as the [[List of Full Metal Panic! characters]], [[List of Full Metal Panic! media]], main character pages, etc) and so were not listed. The reason I'm listing these particular ones is because these would probably be better off merged into one article. -- [[User:Highwind888|Highwind888]], the [[List of Clannad characters#Fuko Ibuki|Fuko Master]] ([[User talk:Highwind888|talk]]) 00:56, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Ah, I didn't realise a Arbalest page existed. However, I still think ARX-8 should be merged, if only due to the lower notability (not officially translated, no anime adaptation yet or for the forseeable future - likely not until the novels finish). [[User:Dandy Sephy|Dandy Sephy]] ([[User talk:Dandy Sephy|talk]]) 04:09, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

== Fullmetal individual characters merges ==

I have tagged three characters to merge them in [[List of Fullmetal Alchemist characters]]. Discussion started in [[Talk:List of Fullmetal Alchemist characters#Merges|here]]. Regards.[[User:Tintor2|Tintor2]] ([[User talk:Tintor2|talk]]) 17:23, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

== More Dragon Ball character list drama ==

Despite the [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cell (Dragon Ball) (2nd nomination)|AfD]] closing as merge, and that AfD being upheld in a rapid fire [[Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2008 October 9|DRV]], JJJ999 is continuing to beat the proverbial dead horse and has now started a discussion to unmerge [[Cell (Dragon Ball)]] from the list. He basically discounts the overwhelming consensus from the AfD, and I personally think this is getting into the disruptive whelm. In either case, the discussion is [[Talk:List of Dragon Ball characters#Unmerge Cell]]. Please feel free to come by and offer your views. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 23:48, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

:I have closed that discussion as disruptive and a waste of time. There's no reason to keep rehashing the exact same discussion over and over again. ···[[User:Nihonjoe|<span style="color:green;">日本穣</span>]]<sup>[[Help:Japanese|?]] · <small>[[User talk:Nihonjoe|Talk to Nihonjoe]]</small></sup> 04:31, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
== Ja.wiki assist with [[Yasuhito Yamamoto]] ==

Can I get an assist here? From [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Yasuhito_Yamamoto&diff=243409809&oldid=181382149 this edit], it looks like ja.wiki version of the article was merged into a longer list of ... mangaka that had been permastubs? Or ... what? Machine translation is getting me only so far. If anyone can figure out what happened, I'd appreciate it -- especially if it might affect what we do with our article. —[[User:Quasirandom|Quasirandom]] ([[User talk:Quasirandom|talk]]) 16:45, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
:Nihonjoe should be able to translate this, but it seems to me that you are correct in assuming that the article was [http://ja.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%E5%B1%B1%E6%9C%AC%E5%BA%B7%E4%BA%BA&action=history merged to a list without a proper edit summary]. (Note, I use the following three engines [http://www.excite.co.jp/world/english/][http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_txt][http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_txt]—did you use all of them?). The template at the top of the page also seems to ask that articles are split from the list once enough information is available to do so. <span style="font-family:Brush Script MT; font-size:large;">[[User:G.A.S|G.A.S]] </span> 17:05, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
::Really?  To me, it seems the history of [[ja:山本康人]] is all redirects: first to one of his works, then directly to his entry on the mangaka list.  —[[Special:Contributions/TangentCube|tan³]] ''[[User talk:TangentCube|tx]]'' 17:53, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
:: So they've been creating a list of minor/underinformationed mangaka, in preference to stubs. Interesting. (I use Babelfish and Google -- hadn't known about Excite; thanks.) —[[User:Quasirandom|Quasirandom]] ([[User talk:Quasirandom|talk]]) 19:31, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

:::Yes, they do that on JAWP. I had thought about doing it here, but wasn't sure the best way to do so. It would provide a place for lesser-known (or lesser-sourced) and new mangaka to be listed without having separate articles until the article was large enough to be on its own. ···[[User:Nihonjoe|<span style="color:green;">日本穣</span>]]<sup>[[Help:Japanese|?]] · <small>[[User talk:Nihonjoe|Talk to Nihonjoe]]</small></sup> 03:19, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:::: How would such a list fly with the notability, er, obsessed? —[[User:Quasirandom|Quasirandom]] ([[User talk:Quasirandom|talk]]) 04:02, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::That's the reason why I haven't made such a list yet. I'm still musing over how something like that might work. ···[[User:Nihonjoe|<span style="color:green;">日本穣</span>]]<sup>[[Help:Japanese|?]] · <small>[[User talk:Nihonjoe|Talk to Nihonjoe]]</small></sup> 04:45, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::Perhaps we could make such a list in project space and then spin out individual articles as we can? ···[[User:Nihonjoe|<span style="color:green;">日本穣</span>]]<sup>[[Help:Japanese|?]] · <small>[[User talk:Nihonjoe|Talk to Nihonjoe]]</small></sup> 04:48, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::Sounds like a good idea. The list will allow those who <s>want to procrastinate</s> have some free time to quickly know which authors needs sources, info, etc. -- [[User:Highwind888|Highwind888]], the [[List of Clannad characters#Fuko Ibuki|Fuko Master]] ([[User talk:Highwind888|talk]]) 05:15, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::The only issue I see is how to keep track of individual edits to the pages. One possibility is to make a subpage for each individual artist/author, and then substitute them into a main page. Then, if the section grows large enough, we can just move that subpage and remove the transclusion. ···[[User:Nihonjoe|<span style="color:green;">日本穣</span>]]<sup>[[Help:Japanese|?]] · <small>[[User talk:Nihonjoe|Talk to Nihonjoe]]</small></sup> 07:21, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::::In that case, the existing stubs could just as easily be transcluded from the main namespace...? The existing biography stubs are quite numerous[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Manga-artist-stub&limit=300] though, not to mention the voice actor stubs[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Japan-voice-actor-stub&limit=600]. <span style="font-family:Brush Script MT; font-size:large;">[[User:G.A.S|G.A.S]] </span> 07:35, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::That's the issue though: this list would have to be outside Mainspace so it wouldn't get deleted. Therefore, all the pages transcluded on it should be outside of Mainspace, too. On a tangentially-related note, it might be good to create a page which lists all the project-related stub pages with useful information like how many articles are linking to the page, etc. This would give an indication which stubs should be expanded first. ···[[User:Nihonjoe|<span style="color:green;">日本穣</span>]]<sup>[[Help:Japanese|?]] · <small>[[User talk:Nihonjoe|Talk to Nihonjoe]]</small></sup> 07:48, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::::::I understand the issue. The list should physically be outside the main namespace, but this does not mean that we should remove the existing stubs—there are no technical restrictions on transcluding pages—and this would keep the edit histories intact; as such I am puzzled why you say that all transcluded pages should be outside of the main namespace. However, for consistency, it would help if they too are transcluded. As for such a list... [http://toolserver.org/~cbm/release-data/2008-9-13/HTML/Anime_and_manga.0.html here is something like it] (Warning: Very large page). <span style="font-family:Brush Script MT; font-size:large;">[[User:G.A.S|G.A.S]] </span> 08:21, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::::(Comment) Wow... 305 manga artist stubs and 662 seiyu stubs... If such a list was created, it definitely needs to be separated into many subsections... -- [[User:Highwind888|Highwind888]], the [[List of Clannad characters#Fuko Ibuki|Fuko Master]] ([[User talk:Highwind888|talk]]) 08:50, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::::::::And there are a few stubs in [[:Category:Anime and manga biography work group articles|here]] that does not have the proper stub templates applied yet (as 995 of the articles in that category are rated as stub class[http://toolserver.org/~daniel/WikiSense/CategoryIntersect.php?wikilang=en&wikifam=.wikipedia.org&basecat=Stub-Class+anime+and+manga+articles&basedeep=1&mode=cs&tagcat=Anime+and+manga+biography+work+group+articles&tagdeep=1&go=Scan&userlang=en]).  <span style="font-family:Brush Script MT; font-size:large;">[[User:G.A.S|G.A.S]] </span> 10:11, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

So getting back to my original question: should anything be done to [[Yasuhito Yamamoto]] now as a result of the ja.wiki merge? —[[User:Quasirandom|Quasirandom]] ([[User talk:Quasirandom|talk]]) 14:38, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
:Not necessarily. We have quite a few articles that aren't on JAWP, or are larger to varying degrees than their JAWP counterparts. I don't see any reason to get rid of an article simply because JAWP does. ···[[User:Nihonjoe|<span style="color:green;">日本穣</span>]]<sup>[[Help:Japanese|?]] · <small>[[User talk:Nihonjoe|Talk to Nihonjoe]]</small></sup> 07:26, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

== Removing date autoformatting ==

With the Japanese episode list template, the links are auto-formatted, and doesn't work properly if the linking is removed (currently, putting <nowiki>[[2006-10-05]]</nowiki> as a parameter will cause it to display [[26 October]] [[2006]], but if the linking is removed, it just displays 2006-10-05). Can we edit the template so it doesn't do the linking, or does it need it to function? -- [[User:Highwind888|Highwind888]], the [[List of Clannad characters#Fuko Ibuki|Fuko Master]] ([[User talk:Highwind888|talk]]) 07:05, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:Oh, sorry.  It's a wiki thing, not to do with the template :P Can it be changed? -- [[User:Highwind888|Highwind888]], the [[List of Clannad characters#Fuko Ibuki|Fuko Master]] ([[User talk:Highwind888|talk]]) 07:06, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::Well, technically, you're supposed to actually put October 26, 2006 and not use the ISO dates. The ones using ISO dates have to be fixed before the links are removed. The links are being removed to remove the autoformatting, hence it not working :P-- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 14:00, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:::BTW, this raises another issue I've been wondering about for awhile now... should we adopt a "standard" date format for anime/manga articles? [[WP:DATE]] allows for ignoring formatting precedent on a given article with [[WP:DATE#Strong national ties to a topic|strong national ties to a topic]], though that says it's specifically for English-speaking countries, and thus I'm not sure how it would affect us. Thoughts? —[[User:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: blue;">Dino</span>]][[User talk:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: green; font-weight: normal;">guy</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: orange;">1000</span>]] 18:07, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::::[[WP:MOS#Strong national ties to a topic]] and its WP:DATE counterpart are specifically only for things in English, not things that come from a non-English-speaking country and are translated into English.  We should follow [[WP:MOS#Retaining the existing variety]] as we always (should) have.  —[[Special:Contributions/TangentCube|tan³]] ''[[User talk:TangentCube|tx]]'' 18:30, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

::::I personally think we should. There is too much mixing going on and now that the auto formatting is gone, some of our articles are a mess. As the first English version is primarily NA and it is the date format most heavily used, I personally would go with the American dating. It just seems odd to have International (AKA UK) dating on some articles, such as [[InuYasha]], which itself jumps back and forth between individual articles within the series. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 19:52, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::::I'm for consistant within an article/topic, but otherwise not for a enforcing a specific format (except, not ISO is strongly preferred). —[[User:Quasirandom|Quasirandom]] ([[User talk:Quasirandom|talk]]) 19:59, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

:::::That's interesting, I hadn't thought about consistency between the articles of a given series before... but I think that would definitely be a good thing, possibly good enough to justify [[WP:IAR|ignoring the guidelines]]. Anyone else have thoughts on this, as opposed to a project-wide standard? —[[User:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: blue;">Dino</span>]][[User talk:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: green; font-weight: normal;">guy</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: orange;">1000</span>]] 20:00, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

::::::Topic consistancy sounds good, but I don't think we should be "enforcing" it over the whole project, because that sort of thing is exactly why we have a section on it in the MOS in the first place.  —[[Special:Contributions/TangentCube|tan³]] ''[[User talk:TangentCube|tx]]'' 20:08, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

::::::: As TangentCube says. —[[User:Quasirandom|Quasirandom]] ([[User talk:Quasirandom|talk]]) 21:03, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

::::::: If nothing else, topic consistency should, I think, be a must...as is never more clearly shown than by [[List of Dragon Ball episodes]], where in the first two ep lists used American format, but the second two used British, so when transcluded into the one list...~goes off to make use of some RegExs to fix the second two lists~ -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 15:01, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::::I think a standardised format would make the pages look nicer. For all of the edits that I've done, it's been month before day, which I used because I've seen it most on the Anime pages.  Thus, all that's required to remove the autoformatting is to remove the square brackets (and add a comma), so it's a bit simpler and is the one I prefer. -- [[User:Highwind888|Highwind888]], the [[List of Clannad characters#Fuko Ibuki|Fuko Master]] ([[User talk:Highwind888|talk]]) 04:13, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I've always liked the ISO format simply because it was small, and gave more room to other columns in the table, but I'm open to other options. -- [[User:Ned Scott|Ned Scott]] 04:23, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:::I also prefer the ISO date in tables since it is sortable, in addition to the space saved. [[User:G.A.S|<span style="font-family:Brush Script MT; font-size:large;">G.A.S</span>]][[User talk:G.A.S|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;">talk</span></sup>]] 06:21, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

:I use ISO a lot for work and in reports I generate because of that reason. The problem with ISO on Wikipedia, though, is it can be more confusing for readers because we have a much wider audience. To some countries, its yyyy-mm-dd but in others its yyyy-dd-mm, resulting in potential confusion as to what the date really is. For example, 2008-04-05 would be April 5, 2008 to some folks, but in some other English speaking countries, it would mean May 4, 2008. Spelling it out as April 5, 2008 or 5 April 2008 removes that issue and ensures clarity. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 04:49, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

::I disagree: Per definition, ISO standard is YYYY-MM-DD. It is the other numerical format that is confusing, ie DD-MM-YYYY or MM-DD-YYYY. (See [[Calendar date#Usage issues]]) [[User:G.A.S|<span style="font-family:Brush Script MT; font-size:large;">G.A.S</span>]][[User talk:G.A.S|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;">talk</span></sup>]] 06:15, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

:::I mean confusing to readers. Readers don't always know that ISO = YYYY-MM-DD, and in other countries, it can mean YYYY-DD-MM instead. Spelling it out and using the full month name removes that issue. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 06:21, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

:::: As Collectonian says -- ISO has its virtues, but clarity to the general reader isn't one of them. —[[User:Quasirandom|Quasirandom]] ([[User talk:Quasirandom|talk]]) 14:39, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::I agree with Collectonian. Spelling it out removes confusion. ~ [[User:Itzjustdrama|<span style="color: #CC77FF;">Itz</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Itzjustdrama|<span style="color: #CC99FF; font-weight: normal;">just</span>]][[User talk:Itzjustdrama|<span style="color: #CCBBFF;">drama?</span>]] 01:22, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::I also agree, but not being American I would. For wikipedia use only spelling it out is clear enough to everyone. It's confusing enough when the rest of the internet assumes you know what format their date useage is in, but you can usually make some sort of assumption based on the site (i.e. the big anime and game sites tend to be american unless they have obvious overtones towards other regions). You simply can't do that on wikipedia. [[User:Dandy Sephy|Dandy Sephy]] ([[User talk:Dandy Sephy|talk]]) 15:37, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::I do have to ask, though, should we agree on a ''preferred'' date format for new articles for series that previously had no dedicated articles (its usage wouldn't be required if there ws a good reason to use a different format)? And should we update our MoS with these guidelines and (perhaps) notify [[WP:DATE]] just to make sure it's all right with everyone over there? —[[User:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: blue;">Dino</span>]][[User talk:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: green; font-weight: normal;">guy</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: orange;">1000</span>]] 18:24, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::::I think that would be a good idea, to have some consistency. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 18:32, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

===Related issue: delinkers changing formats===
As noted above, so far we seem to agree that while the project shouldn't push one format over another, that topic consistency should be enforced and that, in general, which ever date format (international or american) that was used first should be retained, correct? Unfortunately, at least one of the editors going around and delinking using the scripting tools, [[Special:Contributions/Ohconfucius|Ohconfucius]] has hit a large number of our episode lists and he did not pay any attention to the existing date formats. Instead, he delinked them all to International format which, of course, now has all of those lists in conflict with the rest of their articles and with the date MoS itself regarding retaining existing date formats if the article doesn't have a strong tie to one or another. I've been going through and undoing and redoing them properly, but some help would be appreciated. I've also left him a note asking him to take more care in the future. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 13:34, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

:As a note, it looks like he only did this for titles O-S, with the earlier ones fine. He was trying to be consistent with the newer ones, but he seemed cool with my explanations on the format. So they should all be cleaned up now. Yay! Might be good to double check any others if you see them hitting a list, though. I know Tony has been sticking with the article's existing format, as have I on the lists I've hit. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 15:57, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

::He actually started at the top of the alphabet ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&offset=20081006083539&limit=500&target=Ohconfucius start here and work your way down]).  I started hand-reverting these but got distracted with other fixes as well, finally burning out shortly after ''Gin Tama''.  —[[Special:Contributions/TangentCube|tan³]] ''[[User talk:TangentCube|tx]]'' 20:15, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

:::Yeah, I was going backwards through his contribs. When I hit O, it looked like the rest were all done okay, but will check back some more. It is tiring even using the script again. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 20:23, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

:I actually noticed this a few days ago, but I was too lazy to really do anything about it (surprise surprise). I was spurred to install Lightmouse's script for myself, though, but haven't gotten a chance to try it yet. —[[User:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: blue;">Dino</span>]][[User talk:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: green; font-weight: normal;">guy</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: orange;">1000</span>]] 18:24, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

::I installed it the other day and its pretty easy once you realize the links are added to the left  menu not the top :P -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 18:32, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

:::Yeah, I got a chance to try it on a few articles, and it's really nifty - my only qualm with it so far is that it doesn't seem to be able to convert ISO dates to other formats (unless I'm missing something, since I couldn't find any documentation...). —[[User:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: blue;">Dino</span>]][[User talk:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: green; font-weight: normal;">guy</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: orange;">1000</span>]] 19:11, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

::::That was a complaint for me too. I wonder if he could possibly add that function. The idea of changing all of the InuYasha episode lists manually makes me want to call in sick for the day :P -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 19:14, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
== Rurouni Kenshin ==

Aside from [[Sagara Sanosuke]] failing GA, I've also noticed that although we have pages for [[Samurai X: Trust & Betrayal]] and [[Samurai X: Reflection]] we don't have a page for [[Samurai X: The Motion Picture]]. Now, I'm still not clear on how this works for project policy (see the Full Metal Panic item above) but if separate pages are welcomed, do we need a page for the movie too? The Ova's are set before, and after the rest of the franchise, whereas the movie is a "side story" if it makes a difference. Of course, the western release of these are all named differently from the tv series, but I'm not sure if that makes any difference?

I'm going to be doing some work on various Kenshin pages that are currently start and theres a lot of stuff that needs doing, so any work on any of the pages would be appreciated! The lead of [[Rurouni Kenshin]] still needs checking, it's the obvious thing standing in the way of a GA nomination.  <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Dandy Sephy|Dandy Sephy]] ([[User talk:Dandy Sephy|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dandy Sephy|contribs]]) 01:05, 12 October 2008 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:The OVAs were decided not to be merged since users saw it could have too much reception available. The movie article was merged since it was very short and did  not have any ref. I think a few characters could be merged but I still want to work in Sanosuke since the reviewer did not put on hold it although he said it did not need so many fixes.[[User:Tintor2|Tintor2]] ([[User talk:Tintor2|talk]]) 01:09, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

:: Ok, that makes sense. I'm leaving Sanosuke as I don't think I'm the right person to make the improvements. I did have a brief discussion with Collectonian regarding some of the other characters. I couldn't see any discussion regarding merges, just the suggested merge tag, and only in the talk pages not on the article. [[Seta Sōjirō]], [[Yukishiro Enishi]] and [[Yukishiro Tomoe]] all strike me as characters deserving off their own pages (not so much Sojiro) with regards to notability, they just need improving. I haven't started a discussion regarding the proposed merges due to the lack of notes regarding reasons for the suggestion and wanting to leave Enishi and Tomoe until I finish the manga (currently most of the way through the flashback). 

[[List of Rurouni Kenshin chapters]] could do with a reassesment. It's currently start but doesn't seem that different to [[List of Naruto manga volumes]] which is FL  <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Dandy Sephy|Dandy Sephy]] ([[User talk:Dandy Sephy|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dandy Sephy|contribs]]) 01:21, 12 October 2008 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:It still need summaries and the Naruto volumes have the summaries in its respective sublist.[[User:Tintor2|Tintor2]] ([[User talk:Tintor2|talk]]) 01:24, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

::Yea. Add volume summaries for volume eight on and then I would suggest the reassessment request afterward. Delink the dates too. ~ [[User:Itzjustdrama|<span style="color: #CC77FF;">Itz</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Itzjustdrama|<span style="color: #CC99FF; font-weight: normal;">just</span>]][[User talk:Itzjustdrama|<span style="color: #CCBBFF;">drama?</span>]] 01:33, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

::: I'm blind then :p Collectonian has just bumped it to C, i'll try and sort the summary's out soon. Currently working on the episode list (drafting seperate season lists to bring the current large list into line with other articles [[User:Dandy Sephy|Dandy Sephy]] ([[User talk:Dandy Sephy|talk]]) 01:38, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
::: Right, I'm not having much luck with summaries, it's harder then it sounds. I can;t even write one for the volume that is only flashback (vol20) aside from one "intermission" chapter. [[User:Dandy Sephy|Dandy Sephy]] ([[User talk:Dandy Sephy|talk]]) 02:27, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
::::[[WP:DEADLINE|You don't need to worry about getting it done today.]] If it's too difficult, you can get back to it. I guess I can lend a little help. But I haven't actually read the series so I have to do that. I guess looking at featured lists helps narrows down what the volume summary should contain. ~ [[User:Itzjustdrama|<span style="color: #CC77FF;">Itz</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Itzjustdrama|<span style="color: #CC99FF; font-weight: normal;">just</span>]][[User talk:Itzjustdrama|<span style="color: #CCBBFF;">drama?</span>]] 02:50, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::Yeah, but I have a habit of not getting things done if i don't do them right away. [[User:Dandy Sephy|Dandy Sephy]] ([[User talk:Dandy Sephy|talk]]) 11:16, 12 October 2008 (UTC)


Separate season lists created [[List of Rurouni Kenshin Season 1 episodes]],[[List of Rurouni Kenshin Season 2 episodes]],[[List of Rurouni Kenshin Season 3 episodes]]. The leads all need doing, references are needed and japanese titles and airdates are incomplete but it's a start. I've also removed the episode summarys from the main list [[List of Rurouni Kenshin episodes]] which has the same problems [[User:Dandy Sephy|Dandy Sephy]] ([[User talk:Dandy Sephy|talk]]) 22:33, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

:Nice. I ll try to expand the lead.[[User:Tintor2|Tintor2]] ([[User talk:Tintor2|talk]]) 23:47, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

::I'm now fixing all of the mistakes there. In the future, please discuss and ask for help before doing such edits if you aren't sure how to do it. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 00:20, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Collectonian has fixed my cockups, written some leads and we've both added the all the missing kanji and airdates. Most of the romaji titles still need doing if anyone can find them [[User:Dandy Sephy|Dandy Sephy]] ([[User talk:Dandy Sephy|talk]]) 02:02, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

== [[Kiuyasha Movie Shinsha Animation]] ==

Can someone have a look at [[Kiuyasha Movie Shinsha Animation]] to see if it's actually needed?  An anonymous editor created it in the Talk: space, I have moved it into mainspace, but knowing next to nothing on the subject, I'm not sure if they're a notable studio or if we have the info elsewhere.  [[User:Lankiveil|Lankiveil]] <sup>([[User talk:Lankiveil|speak to me]])</sup> 11:16, 12 October 2008 (UTC).

:I fixed a couple of wikilinks, but I can't actually find mention of this company with google at all. Well, I found two links and one of them was the speedy deletion page (the google summary was out of date). If I can't find anything else out, I'll nominate it for deletion.  <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Dandy Sephy|Dandy Sephy]] ([[User talk:Dandy Sephy|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dandy Sephy|contribs]]) 11:28, 12 October 2008 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

::No joy, nominated for deletion [[User:Dandy Sephy|Dandy Sephy]] ([[User talk:Dandy Sephy|talk]]) 11:57, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

== MedCab cases ==

[[WP:MEDCAB|MedCab]] has a backlog of cases. Anyone can volunteer as an informal mediator. I was wondering if an active member of WikiProject Anime and manga could adopt [[Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2008-10-07 Tien Shinhan]] and [[Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2008-10-08 Cell (Dragon Ball)]]. Thank you for any assistance! [[User:Vassyana|Vassyana]] ([[User talk:Vassyana|talk]]) 15:43, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
:I've picked up both of them as they are related. ···[[User:Nihonjoe|<span style="color:green;">日本穣</span>]]<sup>[[Help:Japanese|?]] · <small>[[User talk:Nihonjoe|Talk to Nihonjoe]]</small></sup> 19:30, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
== ''[[Xam'd: Lost Memories]]'' ==

Okay, so I've came across this series quite a few months ago, and now I've decided to work on it a little bit, however there are something that begins to concern me. As the article implies, the anime is available exclusively on the [[PlayStation Network]], which leads me to wonder if the infobox should be using <nowiki>{{Infobox animanga/OVA}}</nowiki> with the ONA field set as yes, instead of the one for the anime, since as it appears the [[:ja:亡念のザムド|Japanese version of the article]] is refering it as a [[:ja:Webアニメ|Web anime]], which itself links back to [[Original net animation]] here in the English version. I also wonder if the [[List of Xam'd: Lost Memories episodes|list of episodes]] would belong in [[:Category:Lists of anime television series episodes]], as apprently the category is for anime '''television''' series, but leaving the page uncategorized would seem a little bit :\. <span style="background:#99FFFF;color:"><span style="color:#FFFFFF;">--</span> [[User:Cloud668|<span style="color:#FFFFFF;">クラ</span>]][[User talk:Cloud668|<span style="color:#FFFFFF;">ウド</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Cloud668|<span style="color:#FFFFFF;">６６８</span>]]</span> 06:50, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
:[[List of Legend of the Galactic Heroes episodes]] is also in that category, so I guess it's allright to put that series also in there. --[[User:Mika1h|Mika1h]] ([[User talk:Mika1h|talk]]) 12:19, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
:Shouldn't that category be named as "Lists of anime series episodes", as there no categories for OVA and webseries episodes. --[[User:Mika1h|Mika1h]] ([[User talk:Mika1h|talk]]) 12:22, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

::Yeah, I think the category should be renamed too, since by wording, OVAs and web anime isn't getting the love it should be getting compared to TV series.<span style="background:#99FFFF;color:"><span style="color:#FFFFFF;">--</span> [[User:Cloud668|<span style="color:#FFFFFF;">クラ</span>]][[User talk:Cloud668|<span style="color:#FFFFFF;">ウド</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Cloud668|<span style="color:#FFFFFF;">６６８</span>]]</span> 13:37, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

:::But this is a TV series; it got a three month advance over the PSN, but it is airing on TV now, like it was always meant to. [[User:Doceirias|Doceirias]] ([[User talk:Doceirias|talk]]) 05:48, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

::::Nope, ''Xam'd'' is not a TV series, but instead, is still currently exclusive to the PlayStation Network. If you click on [http://www.xamd.jp/howto/index.html here], the header of the section to the left specifically confirms so. The trailer, which is available on the Japanese PlayStation Store (I wouldn't bother with the one on the American store), as well as websites like [http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2008-07-15/funimation-bones-anime-on-playstation-video-service Anime News Network] also confirms this, with no mentioning of a TV broadcast. In case you are wondering, the three months advance refers to the '''American''' PlayStation Store getting the anime three months prior to the '''Japanese''' PlayStation Store. <span style="background:#99FFFF;color:"><span style="color:#FFFFFF;">--</span> [[User:Cloud668|<span style="color:#FFFFFF;">クラ</span>]][[User talk:Cloud668|<span style="color:#FFFFFF;">ウド</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Cloud668|<span style="color:#FFFFFF;">６６８</span>]]</span> 20:35, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

== Issues with Tong Li (pirating company) ==

I've just so happened to notice that [[Tong Li Comics]] is in several infoboxes on the Anime and Manga WikiProject. Tong Li is a bootlegging company, and i'm not too sure if it should be on there... : ( — [[User:Jump Guru|<span style="color:#BCBCBC; font: 90% trebuchet ms;">'''<span style="color: blue;">J U M P</span> <span style="color: magenta;">G U R U</span>'''</span>]] <sup><small>■[[User talk:Jump Guru|TALK]]■</small></sup> 15:17, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

:For those titles they "released" as pirated materials, I'd say they should be removed. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 15:22, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

::I erased Tong Li off of ''[[Oh My Goddess!]]'', although on the "WhatLinksHere", it says it's still on the page. — [[User:Jump Guru|<span style="color:#BCBCBC; font: 90% trebuchet ms;">'''<span style="color: blue;">J U M P</span> <span style="color: magenta;">G U R U</span>'''</span>]] <sup><small>■[[User talk:Jump Guru|TALK]]■</small></sup> 15:39, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

:::Wait a sec' the page says that he stopped pirating. — [[User:Jump Guru|<span style="color:#BCBCBC; font: 90% trebuchet ms;">'''<span style="color: blue;">J U M P</span> <span style="color: magenta;">G U R U</span>'''</span>]] <sup><small>■[[User talk:Jump Guru|TALK]]■</small></sup> 15:42, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

::::It takes a moment for the WhatLinksHere to update as its cached (like search results). The Wikipedia article notes that he stopped pirating, however not that the company is now legitimately licensing manga titles, only that they started releasing original materials. I think we'd need some reliable sources showing that they held any legitimate licenses for claimed manga titles (particularly older ones like OMG). -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 15:50, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 
:::::I'll just start removing them, I don't trust the company one bit. Also they bootlegged ''Weekly Jump'', I'll never forgive em'! (kidding) I just think we should remove the links. — [[User:Jump Guru|<span style="color:#BCBCBC; font: 90% trebuchet ms;">'''<span style="color: blue;">J U M P</span> <span style="color: magenta;">G U R U</span>'''</span>]] <sup><small>■[[User talk:Jump Guru|TALK]]■</small></sup> 16:24, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Good God, Stop! Ever since the early nineties when the copyright laws went in place in Taiwan, Tong Li has been acquiring the licenses from Japan through legal means. The article should be edited to reflect this. Shame on you to be basing your actions through information from a Wikipedia article! [[User:Deadkid dk|_dk]] ([[User talk:Deadkid dk|talk]]) 19:46, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

:It was also based on the source used in the article. Please provide valid sources showing that they do now actually legally license manga (which as I noted above, is needed anyway to claim someone has licensed a series, be it Tong Li, Viz, or anyone else). Which really points to a much bigger issue with almost all of our articles...people are frequently allowed to indiscriminately add networks, publishers, etc without any sources at all. All such additions should be sourced somewhere in the article or in the infobox if its valid, otherwise, I think we really need to stop just letting them in if its looks legit enough. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 19:48, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
::I've edited [[Tong Li Comics]]. The internet isn't the best place for sources of individual license, since, unlike the States, Taiwan doesn't bother putting that stuff online when they have it on the back of each volume already. [[User:Deadkid dk|_dk]] ([[User talk:Deadkid dk|talk]]) 20:25, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

:::I'm going to China Town to find out (hope they have Tong Li there). However, you do know that you can source a book? right? — [[User:Jump Guru|<span style="color:#BCBCBC; font: 90% trebuchet ms;">'''<span style="color: blue;">J U M P</span> <span style="color: magenta;">G U R U</span>'''</span>]] <sup><small>■[[User talk:Jump Guru|TALK]]■</small></sup> 20:37, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Here is the problem though - fansubbers stick their names on their copies too, as do bootleggers of DVDs, it doesn't mean they have a legal license. Some reliable source has to actually confirm that Tong Li has a legal license - newspaper, magazine, website, something. Considering their history, I wouldn't say their own claim is sufficient. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 20:39, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
::::And that's the hard part. The books themselves are going to be under scrutiny, but they are themselves the best proof (They have copyright notices, legal documentation, everything, in English!) I doubt other places, the reliable sources you call them, would bother to ascertain that a series is legal when it is readily apparent. [[User:Deadkid dk|_dk]] ([[User talk:Deadkid dk|talk]]) 20:46, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::How about the original Japanese company who GAVE the licence? [[User:Melodia|♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫]] ([[User talk:Melodia|talk]]) 20:53, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::I'm trying to find those right now, although I don't think they put those things online either. [[User:Deadkid dk|_dk]] ([[User talk:Deadkid dk|talk]]) 20:56, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::Usually they don't put that out there (a list of who has licensed what). Normally, the word of the licensing company is good enough, when it has been established as a reputable company, or a news report on a reliable site like ICv2 or ANN. In this company's case, though, with their past history, they can't be considered a reputable/reliable company for making such claims so something else is needed. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 21:19, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::::The Fang-Wan Nan guy calls himself a bootlegger and we can't find ANY reliable sources that he published them legally. Isn't that enough? Also, there's several other bootleg companies in the infoboxes, besides Tong Li. The only non-bootlegging Chinese publisher I can think of is [[Chuang Yi]]. That's not even from China! — [[User:Jump Guru|<span style="color:#BCBCBC; font: 90% trebuchet ms;">'''<span style="color: blue;">J U M P</span> <span style="color: magenta;">G U R U</span>'''</span>]] <sup><small>■[[User talk:Jump Guru|TALK]]■</small></sup> 22:59, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::Tong Li isn't from China, so what's your point? I can throw more names of Chinese-language publishers at you, but you'll either not believe me or never heard of them. Bootlegging wasn't against the law in Taiwan before 1991, so of course Fang Wan-Nan can call himself the king of pirated comics and get off scot-free! The point is, after 1992, when the law got set in place (when Taiwan was planning to get into the [[WTO]]), the publishers that continued to exist must have acquired their licenses legitimately. [[User:Deadkid dk|_dk]] ([[User talk:Deadkid dk|talk]]) 00:00, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::::::They both translate manga into Chinese, so what's your point? Find a source that says that Tong Li licenses manga with the permission of the Japanese publisher. Get it from where you found all this info that you're explaining to us right now! If it's in the manga they could have easily lied and said that they legally found the rights to the series. — [[User:Jump Guru|<span style="color:#BCBCBC; font: 90% trebuchet ms;">'''<span style="color: blue;">J U M P</span> <span style="color: magenta;">G U R U</span>'''</span>]] <sup><small>■[[User talk:Jump Guru|TALK]]■</small></sup> 00:48, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::::They could just as easily get sued by Japan, which didn't happen, unlike the other Taiwanese publishing company [http://www.acgtalk.com/files/07092608.jpg Daran Publishing]....Yes, I'm looking for sources and sacrificing my midterm studying, please bear with me. [[User:Deadkid dk|_dk]] ([[User talk:Deadkid dk|talk]]) 00:56, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::::::::This is nothing to be sacrificing that for. Do your work. : ) By the way, the page you linked looks like a blog. : ( — [[User:Jump Guru|<span style="color:#BCBCBC; font: 90% trebuchet ms;">'''<span style="color: blue;">J U M P</span> <span style="color: magenta;">G U R U</span>'''</span>]] <sup><small>■[[User talk:Jump Guru|TALK]]■</small></sup> 00:58, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::::::Oh yes, that's a blog so I did not use it to cite anything. But that blog tells of a lawsuit that Daran eventually lost and had to declare bankruptcy, which should be verifiable through old newspapers....that's beside the point now, lol. [[User:Deadkid dk|_dk]] ([[User talk:Deadkid dk|talk]]) 01:14, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Hm, [http://ethesys.nkfust.edu.tw/ETD-db/ETD-search-c/view_etd?URN=etd-1018106-162036-723 here's someone's paper] about the current state of Taiwanese comics. Page 29 says (my translation): "In 1992, new copyright laws went into place, .... The comic publishers, seeking perpetual operation, decided to stop pirating Japanese manga and sought to secure copyright agreements with Japanese publishers; finally putting an end to Taiwan's negative portrayal as "The Kingdom of Piracy". The legalisation of comics and the publishers' respect of intellectual property made the comic industry noticed and recognized by the media." Did not name Tong Li, but I gathered that every one of Taiwan's publishers were pirates at some point and converted for the law. [[User:Deadkid dk|_dk]] ([[User talk:Deadkid dk|talk]]) 01:28, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

:I believe it, we can source old newspapers. How about that Collectonian? — [[User:Jump Guru|<span style="color:#BCBCBC; font: 90% trebuchet ms;">'''<span style="color: blue;">J U M P</span> <span style="color: magenta;">G U R U</span>'''</span>]] <sup><small>■[[User talk:Jump Guru|TALK]]■</small></sup> 02:17, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
::Old newspapers can be sourced, yes, however if it doesn't mention Tong Li specifically, it still doesn't help clarify which of their "releases" were legit ones done after the ban and which were the illegal ones from before it. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 02:32, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
:::I think we can safely assume that anything published after 1992 would be legit. (Hence I did not revert JumpGuru's edit on Ah My Goddess, which I cannot be sure when Tong Li started publishing it) [[User:Deadkid dk|_dk]] ([[User talk:Deadkid dk|talk]]) 02:44, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
::::I don't see why. CD companies like [[Son May]] still operate out of Taiwan selling bootleg after bootleg. [[User:Melodia|♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫]] ([[User talk:Melodia|talk]]) 03:08, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::Digital media fall under other laws, though I have yet to see another bootleg from them after I got tricked into buying their FF9 Soundtrack Plus (!!!) I might be wrong though. [[User:Deadkid dk|_dk]] ([[User talk:Deadkid dk|talk]]) 04:23, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

== key article in need of expert and cleanup ==

The [[Anime#Character_design|character design]] se tion of the animae is in need of an expert. the following section is also disputed as POVed.--[[User:Ipatrol|Ipatrol]] ([[User talk:Ipatrol|talk]]) 20:04, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
== Ref check ==

Anyone own ''500 Manga Heroes'' or ''The Encyclopedia of Japanese Pop Culture''? At [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tien Shinhan]], and editor has claimed that those two books contain significant coverage about the DB character Tien Shinhan (on page 335 for the first, no page given on the second). However, he also claimed there was extensive coverage in ''Anime Explosion'', which I owned, checked, and found not so much as a mention of his name. Looking to see if the other two claims are valid or not as well. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 02:34, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

:It may be too late, but I've ordered them for future reference. :) ···[[User:Nihonjoe|<span style="color:green;">日本穣</span>]]<sup>[[Help:Japanese|?]] · <small>[[User talk:Nihonjoe|Talk to Nihonjoe]]</small></sup> 03:40, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

::Cool. I may check the Encyclopedia out of my uni's library. Won't be much use for newer series since it was published in '97, but curious to see if it has anything useful for the older ones. Wish some of these authors would release some newer books so we can get some coverage of the series from the 2000s :P -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 03:59, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

:I own it.  I'll have a look tonight. [[Special:Contributions/208.245.87.2|208.245.87.2]] ([[User talk:208.245.87.2|talk]]) 16:13, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

::Great, thanks. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 02:04, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

:I checked the ''500 Manga Heroes and Villains'' and it looks like {{User|Logical Premise}} was lying about that reference, too. Kinda frustrating that someone would resort to lying about references in an attempt to influence the results. ···[[User:Nihonjoe|<span style="color:green;">日本穣</span>]]<sup>[[Help:Japanese|?]] · <small>[[User talk:Nihonjoe|Talk to Nihonjoe]]</small></sup> 05:09, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

::Thanks and agreed. :(  BTW, that book wouldn't happen to have anything on any ''Tokyo Mew Mew'' characters would it? :) -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 05:12, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

:::Due to Logical Premise's blatantly deceptive tactics, s/he [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ALogical_Premise&diff=245832541&oldid=245679260 has been warned] that this sort of behavior is completely unacceptable. I hope no one else associated with this project is found to be doing such things. ···[[User:Nihonjoe|<span style="color:green;">日本穣</span>]]<sup>[[Help:Japanese|?]] · <small>[[User talk:Nihonjoe|Talk to Nihonjoe]]</small></sup> 05:33, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

:::Oh, and yes, there is a section about Ichigo Momomiya on p.282 of ''500''. ···[[User:Nihonjoe|<span style="color:green;">日本穣</span>]]<sup>[[Help:Japanese|?]] · <small>[[User talk:Nihonjoe|Talk to Nihonjoe]]</small></sup> 05:34, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

::::Cool! Her's is the last section I have left to do in the list so I'll check that out. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 05:37, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

:::::It's not really that extensive, so you may only be able to get one or two good bits from it. ···[[User:Nihonjoe|<span style="color:green;">日本穣</span>]]<sup>[[Help:Japanese|?]] · <small>[[User talk:Nihonjoe|Talk to Nihonjoe]]</small></sup> 05:43, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

== Should Robotech template be deleted ==

I created the template below should stay or be deleted because I feel that the Robotech character section needs a major overhaul which I have mentioned before.


{{Robotech Characters}}

[[User:Dwanyewest|Dwanyewest]] ([[User talk:Dwanyewest|talk]]) 16:27, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

:I think it's fine to keep it as it allows for easy navigation within the topic. ···[[User:Nihonjoe|<span style="color:green;">日本穣</span>]]<sup>[[Help:Japanese|?]] · <small>[[User talk:Nihonjoe|Talk to Nihonjoe]]</small></sup> 18:58, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

::Some of the characters I left off the template I think need to merged to list what does anyone else think? [[User:Dwanyewest|Dwanyewest]] ([[User talk:Dwanyewest|talk]]) 19:38, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

:::It's fine to list characters who are on a list in the template, too. Just have the link do directly to the location on the list. ···[[User:Nihonjoe|<span style="color:green;">日本穣</span>]]<sup>[[Help:Japanese|?]] · <small>[[User talk:Nihonjoe|Talk to Nihonjoe]]</small></sup> 20:32, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

::::I have mentioned this before but here I go AGAIN.

::::[[List of Robotech characters]] is in need of reform and links formatted because its hard to read as its unwieldy and has no consistency. I added character inboxes to the most notable characters and this is a list of characters I feel should be merged and split 
::::*[[Sera (Robotech character)]] minor character
::::*[[Corg]] minor character 
::::*[[Macross operators]] minor characters
::::*[[Emil Lang (fictional character)]] lack of citations 
::::*[[Marcus Rush]] lack of citations
::::*[[T. R. Edwards]] lack of citations
::::*[[Jonathan Wolfe (Robotech)]] only made one appearance in the show 
::::*[[Lazlo Zand]]

::::These are the articles I think should split to avoid confusion
::::*[[Roy Focker]] should be split to Roy Fokker
::::*[[Bruno J. Global]] should be split to [[Henry J. Gloval]]

::::[[User:Dwanyewest|Dwanyewest]] ([[User talk:Dwanyewest|talk]]) 20:39, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

:::::I recommend discussing it over at [[Talk:List of Robotech characters]] and just leaving a link here. That way people who are watching that article, but not this one, will know about this discussion. Also, I formatted this discussion because it was getting frustrating trying to read it due to lack of indents. ···[[User:Nihonjoe|<span style="color:green;">日本穣</span>]]<sup>[[Help:Japanese|?]] · <small>[[User talk:Nihonjoe|Talk to Nihonjoe]]</small></sup> 05:40, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
As was pointed out above, the template is fine being left alone for now, though it ultimately needs to be merged with {{tl|Robotech}} and cleaned up along the way. I'll have a look and see what I can do with it. —[[User:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: blue;">Dino</span>]][[User talk:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: green; font-weight: normal;">guy</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: orange;">1000</span>]] 17:41, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

== Space Battleship Yamato dispute  (sure do love hording junk) ==

I for the life of me cannot understand how these two articles survived [[Space Battleship Yamato planets]],[[Space Battleship Yamato (spaceship)]] they lack notability or sources but were kept despite 
seeming to contradict your own guidelines as shown below. I feel that they Fails notability [[WP:Notability]], lacks third person evidence. Fails [[WP:Burden]]


{{quote box|bgcolor=#eee9d9|salign=right
|quote = I can NOT emphasize this enough. There seems to be a terrible bias among some editors that some sort of random speculative 'I heard it somewhere' pseudo information is to be tagged with a 'needs a cite' tag. Wrong. It should be removed, aggressively, unless it can be sourced. This is true of all information, but it is particularly true of negative information about living persons.
|source = –<cite>Jimmy Wales <ref>{{cite web|title="Zero information is preferred to misleading or false information"|publisher=WikiEN-l [[electronic mailing list]] archive|author=Jimmy Wales|date=2006-05-16|accessdate=2006-06-11|url=http://mail.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2006-May/046440.html}}</ref></cite>}}


Another issue I have is the article [[List of Space Battleship Yamato characters]] despite the fact I used a reliable sources on September 9th of this year albeit in Japanese from Bandai who make the video games based on the series it was still removed.[http://yamato.channel.or.jp/info/chara_2.html] I have anime articles threatened with deletion or mergers with less evidence than these articles.

[[User:Dwanyewest|Dwanyewest]] ([[User talk:Dwanyewest|talk]]) 02:09, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

:Notability for [[Space Battleship Yamato (spaceship)]] was established in the second AFD. [[List of Space Battleship Yamato characters]] is a [[WP:SPINOUT]], which is perfectly acceptable. Consensus on [[Space Battleship Yamato planets]] was "cleanup, then merge to main article".--[[User:Nohansen|Nohansen]] ([[User talk:Nohansen|talk]]) 02:52, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

:The planets article seems rather unnecessary to me, but I believe someone referred to trying to delete the spaceship page as being like trying to delete [[Starship_Enterprise]]. I tend to agree with that as although Enterprise has significantly more notability, it's still highly significant. [[Space Battleship Yamato (spaceship)]] does NOT lack notability, but the article does need a MAJOR cleanup and improvement. As for the quote, I don't really agree except the living persons part. At the end of the day the nature of the claim and it's likelyhood is a factor. If something is blatantly false or conjecture then fair enough, but a lot of things are actually verifiable and citable but need checking or a chance to be proven. If you remove everything on sight there is no chance of doing so. It really differs on a case-by-case basis, but blanket removal is a flawed way of thinking. As for the last point, I'm not actually convinced they needed sourcing the way you did, but I'm not convinced they needed removing either. Really I think if a source is used for character names (is it really necessary?) there are better ways of doing it in my opinion [[User:Dandy Sephy|Dandy Sephy]] ([[User talk:Dandy Sephy|talk]]) 03:03, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Is it really unreasonable to have information have citations from reliable sources I am imperfect and still need to learn how to format citations properly but every piece of information I have added I have used reliable sources such as [[List of Voltron characters]] , the main [[voltron]] article and the main Robotech characters if I can manage it I fail to see why others can't manage and I am not exactly a genius.

[[User:Dwanyewest|Dwanyewest]] ([[User talk:Dwanyewest|talk]]) 10:17, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

== Manga Artist Infoboxes ==

So, I was looking at the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Manga_artists Manga Artist Category] <small>''(Note that I am not a member of the Manga project; I received a suggestion for a Manga Artist article from SuggestBot)''</small>, and I noticed that almost every single one of them are either Stubs or Start class articles. The overwhelming majority of them have no infoboxes, so I was wondering ''what'' infobox would be best suited for these articles. Perhaps the [[Template:Infobox_Artist|Artist Infobox]]. Or maybe the [[Template:Infobox_Writer|Writer Infobox]]? -[[User:LelandRB|LelandRB]] ([[User_talk:LelandRB|Chat]] · [[Special:Contributions/Lelandrb|contribs]]) 21:08, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
:The ones I monitor use [[Template:Infobox_Person|Person Infobox]]. ~[[User:Itzjustdrama|<span style="color: #9D4;">Itzjustdrama</span>]] <sup>[[Special:Contributions/Itzjustdrama|<span style="color: #9D3;">C</span>]] [[User talk:Itzjustdrama|<span style="color: #9D0;">?</span>]]</sup> 21:10, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
::I was thinking about using Infobox Person, but it's rather general, don't you think? Perhaps [[Template:Infobox_Comics_creator|Comics Creator Infobox]] is in order. Note, I'm not trying to change anything fundamental concepts of Wikipedia here, I just want to know which Infobox to use, so I can add Infoboxes to all the sad stubs sitting the category. -[[User:LelandRB|LelandRB]] ([[User_talk:LelandRB|Chat]] · [[Special:Contributions/Lelandrb|contribs]]) 02:19, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Welcome, and thank you for the help. I had a look at the infoboxes in use on some of the higher quality biography articles[http://toolserver.org/~daniel/WikiSense/CategoryIntersect.php?wikilang=en&wikifam=.wikipedia.org&basecat=Anime+and+manga+biography+work+group+articles&basedeep=2&mode=cs&tagcat=C-Class+anime+and+manga+articles&tagdeep=1&go=Scan&userlang=en], and it seems that {{tl|Infobox Comics creator}} is the more common infobox (In said articles, it is used three times). Regards, [[User:G.A.S|<span style="font-family:Brush Script MT; font-size:large;">G.A.S</span>]][[User talk:G.A.S|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;">talk</span></sup>]] 05:23, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::::So I guess we have to go and change them from person to comics creator? ~[[User:Itzjustdrama|<span style="color: #9D4;">Itzjustdrama</span>]] <sup>[[Special:Contributions/Itzjustdrama|<span style="color: #9D3;">C</span>]] [[User talk:Itzjustdrama|<span style="color: #9D0;">?</span>]]</sup> 17:42, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::I say leave things alone. Though personally, I prefer {{tl|Infobox Person}}. --'''[[User:TheFarix|Farix]]''' ([[User talk:TheFarix|Talk]]) 02:53, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::Awesome, thanks for the replies. I'll use Comics Creator from now on. I don't like using the Person infobox – it makes me feel like the biography is about someone unimportant. :P -[[User:LelandRB|LelandRB]] ([[User_talk:LelandRB|Chat]] · [[Special:Contributions/Lelandrb|contribs]]) 02:21, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

== Suggest policy change. Can we include unlicensed fanfiction/doujinshi? ==

My article based on a popular, well written doujinshi with good artwork, is up for deletion review.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neon_Genesis_Evangelion_RE-TAKE  Many object to it based on the fact that is a doujinshi, and it was suggested I post here, for a policy change.

So here is what I suggest the rules be:

'''1.''' If www.trafficestimate.com or a similar website confirms the website of the official author gets a significant number of hits that it is in fact a notable series.

'''2.''' If a Google search for the title shows that over 50 thousand people(or whatever a reasonable number is determined to be) have written about the series on their websites, blogs, or forum post, then it is in fact notable.

'''3.''' That since major established websites that review licensed manga, don't review any doujinshi at all(I checked around for some time and found none that do), that it isn't reasonable to require that doujinshi have references as other manga do.  Not as long as one of the two requirements listed above have been fulfilled, proving it is in fact a notable series.

'''4.''' That doujinshi be classified in two sections.  One for those with most of the pages dealing with sex, and the other for those which are mostly plotline, and that that plotline isn't just filler for an excuse to have sex with the characters.  Just as if a significant number of magazines were pornographic, you wouldn't classify all magazines printed as being that way, so should we eliminate the inherit bias some might have against doujinshi, since the ones circulated the most are apparently of an adult nature.  Not that many doujinshi do have a bit of sex in them, just as regular Japanese manga often does.  I believe Gantz is one of the most popular manga in Japan right now, and while not the main focus of the story, they do throw in nudity and sex a lot.

'''5.''' Since Japanese copyright law allows doujinshi only to be sold in Japan, the lack of it listed in any major retailer's sites, should not work against its claim to notability.

'''Precedence'''
Many web comics already have articles, even when they are fan made unlicensed works set in the Final Fantasy world, even when characters from that series are used.  Should doujinshi be treated any different, simply because it isn't often display on a website in the same manner?

Anyway, if you haven't read up on doujinshi yet, let me give you a brief overview.  The Japanese copyright laws allow anyone to publish things without a license from the creators of a series, as long as it is within a limited number.  You can use the same characters, and everything else in the series, and then make money off of it in Japan.  Scanlations of these series are where most fans outside of Japan get it from, just as they do manga which hasn't been released yet.  Even the most popular manga series around today, were nothing but scanlations for years before those in Japan decided to notice the large audience, and release licensed versions.  My point being of course, you should not think of doujinshi as any different than regular manga.  According to the wikipedia article on doujinshi, many famous creators of very popular manga and anime series started out as doujinshi creators.  I believe a phenomenon this important deserves its own category. [[User:Dream Focus|Dream Focus]] ([[User talk:Dream Focus|talk]]) 16:51, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

:Sorry, but absolutely not. It completely violates [[WP:N]] and there is a good reason those reliable websites do NOT review doujinshi - it is fanfic whether you like it or not, and in general unnotable to anyone but a handful of die hard fans. Unless the work has actually received significant coverage in reliable sources, it is not notable here and doesn't belong. Nor is this the place to even attempt to try to take [[WP:N]] out of the equation. Doujinshi is not like regular manga, its fan create stuff. Many US producers/writers "allow" fans to make fanfics without punishment, but that doesn't make them notable nor worthy of inclusion here. The article should rightly be deleted. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 17:05, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

:If the work is [[WP:N|"notable"]], I don't see the problem with it having an article. It's not like Wikipedia has anything against [[derivative work]]s: [[Cthulhu Mythos]], ''[[James Potter and the Hall of Elders' Crossing]]'', [[Star Trek: Phase II (fan series)|''Star Trek: Phase II'']]... And it's not like [[WP:ANIME]] has anything against [[dojinshi]] (''[[Haibane Renmei]]'', ''[[Higurashi no Naku Koro ni]]'', ''[[Voices of a Distant Star]]'') since "major aspects of fandom" (i.e. [[fan fiction]]) are supposed to be within the project's scope.--[[User:Nohansen|Nohansen]] ([[User talk:Nohansen|talk]]) 17:33, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

::Every one of those examples you've listed have one thing in common - they have multiple (and official) adaptations.  Official manga, TV series, OVAs, etc.  I think we've established in the past that adaptation = notability.  Now if Gainax were to make some RE-TAKE OVAs or something, I'd be all for the recreation of the RE-TAKE article, but... [[Special:Contributions/208.245.87.2|208.245.87.2]] ([[User talk:208.245.87.2|talk]]) 16:32, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

::...It's simply that the vast majority of dōjinshi is unnotable. True, many mangaka got their start creating dōjinshi series, but how many of those series have coverage here, or for that matter have even a lick of notability? As has been stated elsewhere, while the concept of dōjinshi is notable, individual dōjinshi almost never are. —[[User:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: blue;">Dino</span>]][[User talk:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: green; font-weight: normal;">guy</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: orange;">1000</span>]] 18:09, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Others posting in the AFD of Re-Take kept stating it wasn't notable because it was dojinshi, and one suggested that if I wanted articles for it I should post here for a rule change.  If it sells in many Japanese stores, legally in Japan do to their copyright laws, I believe it is notable enough to have an article about it.  RE-TAKE I found, was in the top 10 sales one week in one store, I adding that to the article.  Does anyone know how to get sales figures for a doujinshi, or how many sales it would have to make to be considerated notable?  Is there a set number? [[User:Dream Focus|Dream Focus]] ([[User talk:Dream Focus|talk]]) 18:22, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

::::This "legal in Japan" thing is a misconception, I think.  Just because the publishers allow it for the most part doesn't make it legal.  There was an article about the popularity of manga in the November 2007 issue of ''Wired'', and half (or more) of that article was about dōjinshi and the implicit agreement between circles and publishers, where everyone admits that using others' IP is illegal, but the publishers turn a blind eye to it because it's better for business.  —[[Special:Contributions/TangentCube|tan³]] ''[[User talk:TangentCube|tx]]'' 22:17, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

:::::IANAL, but I used to be a fansubber back in the old pre-digital days ([[laserdisc]] to [[SVHS]] tapes, lol).  I made a bit of a study of these sorts of subjects.  It is explicitly ILLEGAL, in both Japan and the USA, as both countries are signatories to the [[Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works]].  Of interest are Article 12, which states "Authors of literary or artistic works shall enjoy the exclusive right of authorizing adaptations, arrangements and other alterations of their works." [[Special:Contributions/208.245.87.2|208.245.87.2]] ([[User talk:208.245.87.2|talk]]) 16:32, 17 October 2008 (UTC) 

::::You state the doujinshi in question was in the top 10 sales in one week in a particular store. Heres my take: the stores usually selling doujinshi are specialist stores such as Melonbooks [http://www.melonbooks.co.jp/|MelonBooks]]. These stores are not like Barnes and Noble or any other regular large book store that you'd find in Europe or America (national differences prevent me making a more detailed list), they cater almost specifically to buyers and collectors of anime/manga, especially Otaku (and I mean the actual meaning and "negative" connotation of the word, not the "American fandom" use of the term to simply mean "anime fan"). In short, the stores primary customer is the sort of customer who buys lots of doujin (hentai or not), they are not the average Japanese consumer. Being in the top 10 doujinshi at a specialist doujinshi store does not make it notable outside of doujinshi circles. [[Municipal Force Daitenzin]] is a notable doujinnshi (that REALLY needs improving, but thats another matter). Why is it notable? Well, it's by a notable author [[Rikdo Koshi]](Creator of [[Excel Saga]]), it actually led to the creation of Excel Saga (which is definately notable), and it also forms the basis of much of Excel Saga's plot mechanics - as Dinoguy stated this is a exception to the rule. Re-Take isn't by a notable author (in the greater context), it's existence has had no effect on the notability of anything else including the material it's based on, and basing anything on Re-Take will not improve it's notability unless by some major event where Gainax animates it (no chance). Trying to change wiki policy solely because an article you created and/or had heavy involment on simply isn't going to work, especially against so much opposition [[User:Dandy Sephy|Dandy Sephy]] ([[User talk:Dandy Sephy|talk]]) 03:54, 17 October 2008 (UTC) 

:::I've got a general idea of what it takes for something to be notable, but it definitely isn't my cup of tea, and I've had run-ins over it in the past... So someone else should answer that, although I can say that those who said it wasn't notable '''because''' it was a dōjinshi are dead wrong. —[[User:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: blue;">Dino</span>]][[User talk:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: green; font-weight: normal;">guy</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: orange;">1000</span>]] 18:40, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

:Just because there are some notable webcomics doesn't mean that all webcomics are notable. In fact, the vast majority of webcomics aren't notable. And just because there are some notable webcomics or some notable dōjinshi doesn't mean that any particular dōjinshi series is notable. Likewise, just because something is popular or generates a lot of Ghits doesn't mean that it is notable either. (And I'm not particularly impressed by the over 1,000 his a more refined serach test yields.) Notability is based on coverage by third party publications that are recognized as being [[WP:RS|reliable]].

:But this isn't the place to be discussing changes to the notability guidelines. We can only discuss the applications of the existing guidelines. Discussions about changes should take place at [[WT:NOTE]] instead. But I'll warning you ahead of time. Your proposal is already DOA. --'''[[User:TheFarix|Farix]]''' ([[User talk:TheFarix|Talk]]) 21:13, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

:::I prefer the coverage by hordes of people giving their opinions, not just the coverage of a small number of reviewers giving theirs instead.  Thus I believe the system must be changed. [[User:Dream Focus|Dream Focus]] ([[User talk:Dream Focus|talk]]) 00:33, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

:::Your "refined search" eliminated blogs and forums, nothing more, which is where most of the 50,000 hits were from.  If that many people decided it was notable enough to comment on in their blogs and forum post, then surely it is notable.  And you can't predict if my proposal will be DOA, since all things on wikipedia are decided by a handful of people who just happen to be around at the time, and decide to get involved.  There is no way of knowing how things will end up until you roll the dice and take your chance. [[User:Dream Focus|Dream Focus]] ([[User talk:Dream Focus|talk]]) 00:33, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

::::Of course his search did. Those are not reliable sources. We do not look at people's personal blogs and forum posts as reliable sources, period. And yes, in this case we can pretty accurately predict that your proposal will not fly. Its already been shown repeatedly in other similar proposals. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 00:43, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

::::As Collectonian pointed out, blogs and forum post have absolutely no bearing on a subject's notability. That is why we use coverage by [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] to determine [[WP:NOTE|notability]]. No such coverage exists because the subject is a fan work. Very rarely do fan works receive any coverage by a reliable source. But when they do and depending on the type of coverage, they become notable. I also know that your proposal is doomed to fail over at [[WT:NOTE]] because the movement over there is for a more stricter definition of notability, as opposed to your attempt to make it broader. --'''[[User:TheFarix|Farix]]''' ([[User talk:TheFarix|Talk]]) 01:11, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

::Specifically, the first couple of points of your proposal basically fall under the "Why you shouldn't use Google searches or traffic counters to demonstrate notability" sections of, among other pages, [[Wikipedia:Search engine test]]. [[User:ConMan|Confusing Manifestation]]<small>([[User talk:ConMan|Say hi!]])</small> 22:50, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

:::Is there any possible way to show how many people have read a doijin?  Other than searching for how many people posted in blogs and/or forums about it?  It seems that if the only way to be notable is to be reviewed somewhere which never reviews this type of thing, then its basically impossible. [[User:Dream Focus|Dream Focus]] ([[User talk:Dream Focus|talk]]) 00:34, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

::::Exactly. Unless a work becomes mainstream enough to be written about in reliable places, it is not notable. Doujinshi are not inherently non-notable, but they are a niche product selling limited print runs to a limited audience, and rarely meet the high standards Wikipedia keeps. [[User:Doceirias|Doceirias]] ([[User talk:Doceirias|talk]]) 01:51, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

:::::All this is true, but as was said above, one must always remember that "being a doujinshi" is not, inherently, a reason to nuke an article. It has to fail [[WP:N]]. [[User:Melodia|♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫]] ([[User talk:Melodia|talk]]) 02:21, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

::::::Thank god I made a point of saying exactly that, then. [[User:Doceirias|Doceirias]] ([[User talk:Doceirias|talk]]) 02:45, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

The only time I would include a dojinshi would be if *maybe* (I'm not sure) it was made by a well-known author (i.e. a dojinshi artist who later became a "published" artist) or if it became notable in the press (i.e. the story itself became controversial in the Japanese press) [[User:WhisperToMe|WhisperToMe]] ([[User talk:WhisperToMe|talk]]) 17:43, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:That would be appropriate, if the dojinshi was mentioned by the author or others as a significant reason they came to prominence, and as you say, the author themselves is well-known or at least items he creates.[[User:Jinnai|Jinnai]] ([[User talk:Jinnai|talk]]) 04:15, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

== ''[[Strawberry Panic!]]'' peer review ==

As discussed earlier with [[User:Malkinann|Malkinann]], we are going to attempt to get ''[[Strawberry Panic!]]'' up to FA, but we'll need the project's help. Specifically, a [[Wikipedia:Peer review/Strawberry Panic!/archive2|peer review]] has been started for the article, and helpful input would be useful from anyone willing to look the article over. Not to mention that it'll have to go through a serious copyedit before FAC. Hopefully with the project's help we'll have four FAs by the end of this year.--<span style="background:white;color:">[[User:Juhachi|'''<span style="color:black;">十</span>''']][[User talk:Juhachi|'''<span style="color:red;">八</span>''']]</span> 08:05, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

== ''[[Hamtaro]]'' - I think it should be split ==

I think we should split the ''[[Hamtaro]]'' article - one article could be about the storybook series and the franchise, and the other could be about the anime series. [[User:WhisperToMe|WhisperToMe]] ([[User talk:WhisperToMe|talk]]) 17:39, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

:Do you mean creating a list for manga chapters and one for anime episodes? That should be suitable.[[User:Tintor2|Tintor2]] ([[User talk:Tintor2|talk]]) 17:45, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
::Well, one for the storybook and the franchise and one for the anime. There may be Hamtaro comics, but I'm not sure where they are. [[User:WhisperToMe|WhisperToMe]] ([[User talk:WhisperToMe|talk]]) 17:53, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

:::An article on the storybook series wouldn't fall within this project's scope, would it?--[[User:Nohansen|Nohansen]] ([[User talk:Nohansen|talk]]) 18:00, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
::::If the storybook info was combined with the franchise info (I think in addition to the Hamtaro books there are also comics available too), I think the article would. [[User:WhisperToMe|WhisperToMe]] ([[User talk:WhisperToMe|talk]]) 18:11, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::I checked the article and... it's basically an article on the anime series. So it'd be more like ''creating'' an article on the storybook (and franchise), rather than splitting what we already have. I think it's a good idea.--[[User:Nohansen|Nohansen]] ([[User talk:Nohansen|talk]]) 18:19, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
: The thing is that the storybook is the ''original'' series; the anime was created as a spinoff. Even though the anime is larger and more influential, the storybook is still the original series. Plus, the Japanese Wikipedia has a similar division in which the anime is separate. [[User:WhisperToMe|WhisperToMe]] ([[User talk:WhisperToMe|talk]]) 18:41, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
::I know that (I read it in the article, just now). But, as to not screw up the article's history, the current anime article should remain and a new article on the storybook must be created. You see, [[Hamtaro]] (the article) started as, and practically still is, an article on a "children's anime television program based on Ritsuko Kawai's animated storybooks".--[[User:Nohansen|Nohansen]] ([[User talk:Nohansen|talk]]) 18:51, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Well, what I will do for now is see if I can add more material about the storybook series and information about other aspects of the franchise. Anyhow much of the "anime" info is taken up by character profiles, and they need to be split to a new article. [[User:WhisperToMe|WhisperToMe]] ([[User talk:WhisperToMe|talk]]) 20:37, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

== New Cat? ==

An IP has suggested that we create [[:Category:Shueisha manga]] and add it to the appropriate articles. This would mirror what has been done with other publishers, particularly English ones such as Viz, Tokyopop, etc. However, I vaguely remember their being some discussion over whether that was the appropriate name for categories containing titles published by a company, so figured I'd check here before going ahead and doing the full create and okaying its addition to articles. Thoughts? -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 22:41, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

:Are you referring to a discussion on whether to use [[:Category:Manga published by Shueisha]] or [[:Category:Shueisha manga]]? --'''[[User:TheFarix|Farix]]''' ([[User talk:TheFarix|Talk]]) 22:47, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

::Yes, I seem to remember there were earlier discussions about whether [[:Category:Viz Media manga]], for example, was the correct name to use or not, but I can't remember where those discussions went. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 22:51, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

:::I think the appropriate name would be [[:Category:Shueisha titles]]. See [[Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2008 April 22#Category:Tokyopop titles|Category:Tokyopop titles]].--[[User:Nohansen|Nohansen]] ([[User talk:Nohansen|talk]]) 22:57, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

::::As noted in that discussion, though, right now, most of our cats don't use that format. That's why its confusing :P -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 23:00, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

:::::Perhaps they should, so they fit'd into the overall scheme of things. Categories like [[:Category:Tokyopop manga]] or [[:Category:Tokyopop manhwa]] could be sub-categories of [[:Category:Tokyopop titles]].--[[User:Nohansen|Nohansen]] ([[User talk:Nohansen|talk]]) 23:15, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

== Another [[List of Dragon Ball characters]] merge discussion ==

As the original merge discussion at [[Talk:List of Dragon Ball characters#Tien Shinhan]] was felt to not be a true consensus, and the [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tien Shinhan|AfD]] became a nightmare with fake, but seemingly plausible sources being declared, a new discussion regarding whether [[Tien Shinhan]] should be merged to the list has been started at [[Talk:List of Dragon Ball characters#Tien Shinhan - round 2/3]]. Project views would be appreciated. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 22:48, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:I oppose the entire process being "restarted", which is another way of saying you plan to ignore the input of everyone who had a say only a few weeks ago, before the AfD and the issue being "resolved".  Since you made the exact opposite claim (that I should accept the AfD for now, and stop stirring up trouble) with the Cell AfD, it is laughable for you to suggest such an outcome for Tien (which is the exact outcome I sought after the Cell AfD).  If you want to continue discussion at Tien's merge section, feel free (though frankly I think consensus has now been reached), but to suggest only 7 days after the last person made input on the Tien merge discussion that you are going to create a new section buried at the bottom of the page which ignores the previous discussion is wildly in opposition to consensus.[[User:JJJ999|JJJ999]] ([[User talk:JJJ999|talk]]) 23:37, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
::It's probably useless to tell you this, but four "keep"s and three "merge"s is not a consensus, and creating new sections at the bottoms of talk pages is standard process, not insidious burial. Furthermore, there is no call to complain that someone only waited 7 days before starting a new discussion when the old discussion was a mere 5 days long. --[[User:Masamage|Masamage]] [[User talk:Masamage|♫]] 23:43, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Looks like someone has not followed this.  What you just said is factually incorrect.  Tien's discussion was not 5 days long, unless you mean the AfD (not the merge, which was being discussed a week ago, and which was open for about a month)[[User:JJJ999|JJJ999]] ([[User talk:JJJ999|talk]]) 23:48, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:(reposting same response to same thing posted all over the place) No, it is not inappropriate. YOU yourself had the original merge discussion invalidated after it was already closed. Just because people kept adding stuff after it was already closed did not reopen the issue. The AfD came AFTER that discussion was over, and it subsequently ended with "do not delete" and an edict to "discussion the merge on the talk page" rather than a straight merge or keep, making a new discussion not only fully appropriate but also necessary. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 00:38, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
::You are a liar.  Anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear would be lying to themselves to pretend you didn't just lie flat out.  The merge discussion was closed erroneously by you, then it was re-opened by 2 admins who said you had acted erroneously.  It was never closed.[[User:JJJ999|JJJ999]] ([[User talk:JJJ999|talk]]) 00:46, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
:::You closed that discussion as merge.  I challenged the result.  2 Admins overturned it.  Discussion resumed.  You were unhappy with the way the discussion was going, so to circumvent it you went to AfD.  the AfD called for discussions to resume on the talk page.  It certainly didn't call for the old discussion to be abandoned.  It's a flat out lie to suggest you closed the discussion.  Indeed, you left the "merge discussion" link on Tien's page, and when I removed it you undid my revision (and then pupported to create a "new" discussion).  You also asked various admins (unsuccessfully) to have the AfD discussion added on to the merge discussion on the talk page.  Nice try.[[User:JJJ999|JJJ999]] ([[User talk:JJJ999|talk]]) 00:51, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Wrong, again, but I'm not going to keep this bullcrap of posting the same stuff in 3-4 places because you like to forum shop. Stick to one place to discuss and leave it there. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 00:56, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

== Genre article lists vs categories - please help ==

So the current fashion in genre articles (such as [[mecha]], [[magical girl]] and [[harem (genre)]]) is for lists of examples to be handled via categories, yes?  Unless you've got something particularly interesting to say about them, like they influenced the genre as a whole...  [[Yuri (term)]] has an embedded list, and because of this, I've had some difficulty with an editor in the past over at [[yaoi]] because it doesn't have an embedded list (specifically for "yaoi/shonen-ai as an additional element" - which would be for those titles which aren't blatant and may not be marketed as yaoi, but may be slashable or have secondary/comic relief gay characters).  An IP address now also really really wants an embedded list and has personally attacked me on the yaoi talk page.  (which I removed) I'd like to still address their point, as it seems that when the list was originally removed there was little discussion on Talk:Yaoi about it.  As I am a major contributor to the yaoi article, I'd appreciate some uninvolved people giving their views, and I'd also like to know more about the original arguments which led to the current fashion for categories over embedded lists. Thanks. -[[User:Malkinann|Malkinann]] ([[User talk:Malkinann|talk]]) 23:01, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

:The problem with genre example lists is, when do you stop with the examples? Unless you set an arbitrary limit, the list will continue to grow and the entire point of an example list is lost. In most cases, it is better to have no list then to constantly battle over how many examples to have and what to use as examples. Another problem with this particular list is the problem of [[WP:NOR|original research]]. Unfortunately, I see most of the titles being added to that list on an "I know it when I see it" bases instead of using [[WP:RS|reliable sources]]. --'''[[User:TheFarix|Farix]]''' ([[User talk:TheFarix|Talk]]) 23:33, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

::The list at the yuri article gets around this original research problem by requiring every series to have a source discussing its yuri-potential, so the logical reply is that the theoretical list at yaoi could do that too. I gather that the yuri "additional" list is meant to be exhaustive rather than exemplary, but as there's more yaoi published than yuri, that could cause problems too. -[[User:Malkinann|Malkinann]] ([[User talk:Malkinann|talk]]) 23:39, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

:::The problem with an exhaustive list is that it overwhelms the article it is in. --'''[[User:TheFarix|Farix]]''' ([[User talk:TheFarix|Talk]]) 23:53, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

::::I say 'exhaustive', but the criteria for inclusion that are currently agreed on in the yuri talk are that there should be a wiki article for the series and that there should be a source for it.  Another possibility is perhaps a [[List of yaoi titles]], but what kind of advantage would that afford?  The thing is, the language used from the IP was [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AYaoi&diff=246166203&oldid=246100689 quite inflammatory], and as there's not a lot of collaboration going on at yaoi, I'm usually it as far as discussions go.  So that opens me up to charges of [[WP:OWN|ownership]] and suchlike.  I'm also wondering, in the back of my head, if we could possibly merge the two categories (shonen-ai and yaoi) into one called "Boys Love" for easy maintenance purposes... but that has its own issues associated with it. (is it the right term, loss of resolution)-[[User:Malkinann|Malkinann]] ([[User talk:Malkinann|talk]]) 00:15, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

== Fansite or Reliable source? ==

I know the importance of using reliable sources, but can a fansite also be a reliable source if it is of above average quality, reliable and well written? In particular I'm looking at http://furinkan.com/ which is a site concerning the works of [[Rumiko Takahashi]]. As fansites go, it's incredibly reliable in my experience and I think it should be classed as RS. If not, then it needs to be removed from articles that already use it (i've spotted a couple) [[User:Dandy Sephy|Dandy Sephy]] ([[User talk:Dandy Sephy|talk]]) 17:00, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

"Rumic World" is a valuable resource for all things Rumiko. ComiPress' did a feature on Furinkan.com in 2007 ([http://comipress.com/backstage/rumicworld/index.html link]) and the site appeared in Animefringe's "Top 25 Must Visit Anime Websites" three-years running: [http://www.animefringe.com/magazine/2003/01/feature/02/ 2003], [http://www.animefringe.com/magazine/2004/01/feature/04.php 2004] and [http://www.animefringe.com/magazine/2005/01/feature/05.php 2005].--[[User:Nohansen|Nohansen]] ([[User talk:Nohansen|talk]]) 18:00, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

:::Indeed, but that doesn't answer my question! At the end of the day if it's still considered "only" a fansite (no matter how good), it's not RS if I understand correctly. I'm looking for a project consensus on if it's useable as a RS or not [[User:Dandy Sephy|Dandy Sephy]] ([[User talk:Dandy Sephy|talk]]) 18:07, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

::::According to [[WP:SPS]], "self-published material may be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article"... ComiPress calls the site "one of the most complete English guide to the works of Rumiko Takahashi". Animefringe says it's a "comprehensive resource". I think it qualifies. Also, I seem to remember some anime news sites like [[AnimeNation]] and [[Anime News Network]] have used "Rumic World" as a source.--[[User:Nohansen|Nohansen]] ([[User talk:Nohansen|talk]]) 18:17, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

:::::Serves me right for not following the links properly :p [[User:Dandy Sephy|Dandy Sephy]] ([[User talk:Dandy Sephy|talk]]) 18:34, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

:I would say that Furinkan.com is on the level of Nausicaa.net for depth of coverage and reliable information. Both have been around since around 1996, too. ···[[User:Nihonjoe|<span style="color:green;">日本穣</span>]]<sup>[[Help:Japanese|?]] · <small>[[User talk:Nihonjoe|Talk to Nihonjoe]]</small></sup> 19:53, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

== Merging [[Ginyuu Meika]] into [[Full Moon o Sagashite]] ==

Hi. There was a consensus for merging [[Ginyuu Meika]] into [[Full Moon o Sagashite]]. I tried to figure out how to do it but I am not sure. Can some more familiar with thee subject do it? -- [[User:Magioladitis|Magioladitis]] ([[User talk:Magioladitis|talk]]) 20:22, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

:That AfD needed more discussion it would seem. I can't see why on earth it would be merged to the FMoS article. It isn't related to the series, it was just tacked into its volumes, same as most other one-shots are. It doesn't have any place there at all and would just be removed later. It should have just been deleted like other unnotable one-shots. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 23:46, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

::Or merged into the author's page. [[User:Doceirias|Doceirias]] ([[User talk:Doceirias|talk]]) 23:54, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

:::I don't think anyone would complain if it was merged to the author's page. ···[[User:Nihonjoe|<span style="color:green;">日本穣</span>]]<sup>[[Help:Japanese|?]] · <small>[[User talk:Nihonjoe|Talk to Nihonjoe]]</small></sup> 02:22, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
:::That would also work, and be more fitting I think. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 02:39, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
:::I have no problem with that. Thanks, [[User:Magioladitis|Magioladitis]] ([[User talk:Magioladitis|talk]]) 11:11, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

== Prince of Tennis character merges ==

Over the past few days, there has been a large number of Prince of Tennis characters being merged by [[User:TTN]] into [[List of Prince of Tennis characters]]. None of these merges have been discussed at all, which I'm pretty sure is the complete wrong way to go about it. I don't want to engage in some pointless edit warring about this, but I don't think this should be happening, so I thought I should bring this up here. I'm not against merges happening (although I think a lot of the articles getting merged were fairly substantial on their own), but the complete disregard for even attempting to discuss these changes before they happen is just wrong.[[User:Kuwabaratheman|Kuwabaratheman]] ([[User talk:Kuwabaratheman|talk]]) 03:48, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

:In general, I'd say the merges are appropriate in terms of the individual characters not being notable and more than likely, a merge discussion would have ended with them being merged. However, there still should have been a discussion first, and looking at his merges, it seems like he also removed a lot. I don't know how valuable much of it was, but it would be good if someone from the project reviewed to at least make sure the merges were done properly. Unfortunately, TTN has ignored requests that he do merge discussions instead of AfDing or just merging himself, which is why there is yet another ArbCom about the whole issue. I think its safe to say we tend to be pretty good about neutrally evaluating whether character articles should be merged to a list and doing the merges after the discussions are closed.  -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 05:06, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

:I've attempted to persuade TTN to use the project merge tag and let us work through the backlog at a reasonable rate, but he doesn't really listen to anyone. So far, I haven't seen him merge or AfD anything that didn't deserve it, but he isn't much interested in handling the process peaceably.  [[User:Doceirias|Doceirias]] ([[User talk:Doceirias|talk]]) 05:39, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

::Given that even the talk page of the main character has nothing relevant at all and only one single discussion even from this year, I felt that a merge discussion would end with very few people. If anyone had reverted anything, I would have started one (please nobody do that just because). I've read and watched both versions of the series, so nothing relevant to understanding the characters should be removed in the end. [[User:TTN|TTN]] ([[User talk:TTN|talk]]) 17:41, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
:::If notice were posted here, there would have been a discussion. That's why most of us will post a note here when a merge discussion has started. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 18:35, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

:::I didn't suggest starting a merge discussion; I suggested adding the merge=yes tag to the project banner, and letting us handle the backlog. We have quite a large backlog, so this would be slower, but it would also avoid stepping on people's toes. I've yet to see you nominate or merge anything that didn't warrant it; it's simply a matter of doing things in a less aggressive fashion. [[User:Doceirias|Doceirias]] ([[User talk:Doceirias|talk]]) 03:18, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I've never crossed paths with [[User:TTN|TTN]] and I don't have a beef with him, but it seems [[User:Doceirias|Doceirias]] was right when he said [[User:TTN|TTN]] "doesn't really listen to anyone". For example, the [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gundam Epyon|AFD for Gundam Epyon]] recently closed as "merge and redirect to [[List of Gundams in Gundam Wing]]" but [[User:TTN|TTN]] decided to unilaterally redirect (not merge) the article to a random character's article. I, too, would like to see [[User:TTN|TTN]] step back a little and let us take care of [[WP:CRUFT|"the cruft"]], but it doesn't seem like that will happen anytime soon.--[[User:Nohansen|Nohansen]] ([[User talk:Nohansen|talk]]) 19:19, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
:When they end with "merge", its an editorial decision to merge it or not. The details of that article are exceedingly unnecessary, as with most of the Gundam articles, so there really is nothing to merge. I have watched and read a number of series, so I'm not out of my element here or anything. I generally know the appropriate level of detail necessary to cover characters and elements such as these. I just like to go a bit faster than other people.[[User:TTN|TTN]] ([[User talk:TTN|talk]]) 19:35, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

== [[Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Soul Eater chapters]] ==

Has gone rather stagnant from a lack of commentary, and I would appreciate any and all comments on the nomination (as the nomination will default fail if it does not). Thanks, — [[User:Sephiroth BCR|<span style="font-family:Segoe Script; color:navy;">'''sephiroth bcr'''</span>]] <sup style="font-family:Verdana;">'''([[User talk:Sephiroth BCR|<span style="color:blue;">converse</span>]])'''</sup> 16:20, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
:Ditto for [[Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of D.Gray-man episodes]] and [[Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of D.Gray-man chapters]]. All comments are welcome, and the ''Soul Eater'' chapters nomination is still open to fresh input. Cheers, — [[User:Sephiroth BCR|<span style="font-family:Segoe Script; color:navy;">'''sephiroth bcr'''</span>]] <sup style="font-family:Verdana;">'''([[User talk:Sephiroth BCR|<span style="color:blue;">converse</span>]])'''</sup> 20:44, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
== [[List of Captain Tsubasa characters]] ==

[[User:SuggestBot|SuggestBot]] suggested that I edit this article so I took a look at it. It is currently list-class, with very little information, and marked needing urgent attention. I don't know the series at all and because it is very broad, I'd like to know if anyone who knows the series a bit can help me out a bit. By the way, the main article is also in need of help. ~[[User:Itzjustdrama|<span style="color: #9D4;">Itzjustdrama</span>]] <sup>[[Special:Contributions/Itzjustdrama|<span style="color: #9D3;">C</span>]] [[User talk:Itzjustdrama|<span style="color: #9D0;">?</span>]]</sup> 03:26, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

== Episode summaries ==

I'm currently redoing [[List of Urusei Yatsura episodes]] in sandbox to the correct format (now I know what it is and have a guide for it :P). The first batch of episodes for the show contain 2 short storys in each 'episode", each with seperate title screens. I'm adding both titles to the table, but do I need to add both summaries? [[User:Dandy Sephy|Dandy Sephy]] ([[User talk:Dandy Sephy|talk]]) 16:52, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

:It has the actual episode, then two short stories, or the episodes are made up of two short stories each? -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 19:35, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

::The 25 minute episode is broken up into two 12 minute stories with separate titles. ···[[User:Nihonjoe|<span style="color:green;">日本穣</span>]]<sup>[[Help:Japanese|?]] · <small>[[User talk:Nihonjoe|Talk to Nihonjoe]]</small></sup> 19:51, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

:::Ah, the for the original question yes, both stories should be summarized. Oh, a few weeks ago there was a discussion on the best way to format those kind of series, but can't remember what series it was for. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 20:02, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

::::Yes, thats right. Not a problem, just wanted to save a small amount of effort :p [[Galaxy Angel]] would be a likely source for such a discussion. I think all of the first 4 series are all 2x10minutes on dvd. [[User:Dandy Sephy|Dandy Sephy]] ([[User talk:Dandy Sephy|talk]]) 20:19, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

:If that's being fixed, the Japanese title for each episode should be added, too. ···[[User:Nihonjoe|<span style="color:green;">日本穣</span>]]<sup>[[Help:Japanese|?]] · <small>[[User talk:Nihonjoe|Talk to Nihonjoe]]</small></sup> 02:25, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

:: Yes, I'm adding all the pertinent info. Luckily Furinkan and ANN are goldmines :) I've done the first 50 or so in sandbox, although those are mostly without summary's. [[User:Dandy Sephy|Dandy Sephy]] ([[User talk:Dandy Sephy|talk]]) 18:40, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

:::and the sumaries I have done will violate [[Wikipedia:Copyvio]] so I'll have to remove them [[User:Dandy Sephy|Dandy Sephy]] ([[User talk:Dandy Sephy|talk]]) 15:08, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

== About the abusive creation of fictional characters, groups and places in anime and manga ==

There're too many articles about fictional stuff which do not have independent articles on [[Japanese Wikipedia]], such as [[Chrollo Lucilfer]], [[Hunters Association]], [[Zoldyck Family]], [[Mafia Community (Hunter × Hunter)]], [[Phantom Troupe]], [[Chimera Ants]] (all about ''[[Hunter × Hunter]]''), which is quite weird to me for the excessive fancruft and the fact that Japanese Wikipedia in fact has stricter standards toward fictional things. I think the project should take action to merge these non-notable articles, for they usually do not have independent reliable sources, rarely studied independently by anime and mange researchers, and fictional things generally should not have independent articles. --[[User:RekishiEJ|RekishiEJ]] ([[User talk:RekishiEJ|talk]]) 18:21, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

:See the note above. We're working as fast as we can. There aren't that many of us compared to the thousands of articles ya know and often times we have to deal with fans who don't care about Wikipedia's guidelines and engage in lengthy campaigns to block merges or undo them or to just recreate articles over and over. Right now, our [[:Category:Anime and manga articles to be merged|articles tagged to be merged]] is numbering above 720. And I still don't think we're as bad as the TV arena...go browse the soap pages sometimes, they even make pages for the freakin babies! :-p -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 18:31, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

:: You're going to LOVE me then, I'm likely to be starting two or 3 merge discussions this week concerning about 10 articles :p [[User:Dandy Sephy|Dandy Sephy]] ([[User talk:Dandy Sephy|talk]]) 18:44, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

:::Cool :) I'm still making my way through the already approved merges on a few different series. Getting through the discussions is generally easy, its the actual merging that takes time. LOL -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 19:14, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

::.If you think thats the biggest fancruft from the project, just see the characters articles from [[Saint Seiya]].[[User:Tintor2|Tintor2]] ([[User talk:Tintor2|talk]]) 19:01, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

:::...I am sure thar is not as bad as most of the articles <span class="plainlinks">[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:WikiProject_Gundam&from=0&namespace=1&limit=500 in] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AWhatLinksHere&limit=50&target=Template%3AWikiProject+CE&namespace=1 here]</span>... [[User:G.A.S|<span style="font-family:Brush Script MT; font-size:large;">G.A.S</span>]][[User talk:G.A.S|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;">talk</span></sup>]] 19:25, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

:You should see the [[Tenchi Muyo!]] character articles. Almost every minor character seems to get one, and further, their writing in most of them is a horrific mess that in no way follows the [[WP:MAF|Manual of Style for fiction]], sounding more like fansite profiles than encyclopedic articles. (Example: [[Seto Kamiki Jurai]]. That's just painful to read - it sounds like a fanboy/fangirl of the character wrote it.) I've lost most of my free time thanks to finally getting a job, but I could use some help in cleaning up and merging the lot of them. [[User:NeoChaosX|NeoChaosX]] <span style="font-size:x-small;"> ([[User talk:NeoChaosX|talk]], [[Special:Contributions/NeoChaosX|edits]])</span> 19:34, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

:Yes, there are lots of them. Sometimes, fixing the mess is an uphill battle, as seen with the problems with the Dragon Ball mergers. And the Gundam articles are the biggest mess we have. It's going to take several years before we can finally cleanup the mess unless we get a swarm of highly dedicated editors who are well versed in Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. --'''[[User:TheFarix|Farix]]''' ([[User talk:TheFarix|Talk]]) 01:24, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

:I just want to note that just because the Japanese Wikipedia doesn't have an article on something, it doesn't mean that the topic is not notable (even with anime and manga topics). I recommend caution when using that as the only justification for consideration for deletion. ···[[User:Nihonjoe|<span style="color:green;">日本穣</span>]]<sup>[[Help:Japanese|?]] · <small>[[User talk:Nihonjoe|Talk to Nihonjoe]]</small></sup> 01:48, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
::Not to mention, calling it 'abusing' doesn't see like [[WP:AGF|good faith]] to me. [[User:Melodia|♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫]] ([[User talk:Melodia|talk]]) 02:05, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Seconded.  See also [[WP:CRUFTCRUFT]] while you're at it. [[Special:Contributions/208.245.87.2|208.245.87.2]] ([[User talk:208.245.87.2|talk]]) 12:48, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
::I'd agree there. I wouldn't call the Japanese Wikipedia a good model for deciding deletion or much of anything else. They don't have separate articles on characters, but they also rarely have separate articles on anything. A series article is one huge page with episode lists, chapter lists, character lists, etc, while rarely having any actual non-plot info (like production and stuff). I've also yet to see a JA article have a source. So the JA wiki not having character articles is meaningless. Our own guidelines, such as the lack of real-world notability and significant coverage in reliable, third party sources should be the measures of merging, deleting, or keeping. Also, I have to agree that calling it "abusing" is not only lacking AGF, but also seems to be trying to point to the project as the place of blame, when the fast majority of those character articles were (and still are) created by new users and fans who are not part of the project and have no clue about our guidelines and policies.-- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 13:09, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

== List of anime conventions lead ==

I have tweaked the lead of [[List of anime conventions]] last night hoping to discourage the inclusion of redlinks and to encourage editors to [[WP:WTAF|write the article first]] before adding the convention to the list. --'''[[User:TheFarix|Farix]]''' ([[User talk:TheFarix|Talk]]) 11:13, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

== InuYasha character merges, Part 2 ==

The second round of discussions on merging potentially unnotable character articles from ''InuYasha'' has begun at [[Talk:List of InuYasha characters#Merges, Round Two]]. Please feel free to drop by and offer your input. :) 

And, as a random reminder, when doing character merges, please remember to use <nowiki>{{CharR to list entry}}</nowiki> rather than just <nowiki>{{R from merge}}</nowiki> for the redirection template!-- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 18:20, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
== Project Scope ==

I was assessing [[Wonder Project J2: Koruro no Mori no Josette]] for Tag and Assess 2008; it appears like this is an article about a video game which incidentally mentions a manga adaptation but doesn't go into detail.  Would this article fall within our scope?  --[[User:Kraftlos|Kraftlos]] ([[User talk:Kraftlos|talk]]) 07:10, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
:I think so - I recently tagged ''[[Guin Saga]]'' as being under our scope - an anime adaptation is planned to air in "Spring" 2009. -[[User:Malkinann|Malkinann]] ([[User talk:Malkinann|talk]]) 07:15, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

== Suggestion: Restore deleted Funimation category, or re-delete ADV's category. ==

I noticed that the category which lists titles released by Funimation had been deleted ([[:Category:Funimation|Category:Funimation]]), yet other anime companies have categories such as ADV Films ([[:Category:ADV Films|Category:ADV Films]]), although in ADV's case, theirs was deleted and then restored.

We should either agree to have categories for all, or have categories for none. On the negative side, there'd be a LOT of titles to list, in fact, so many that I'm skeptical as to whether categories would be properly maintained. Be that as it may, I'm slightly in favor of having them, although again, I say we should either have them for none or have them for all.

So, I move that we either restore Funimation's category, or re-delete ADV's category.

(Wiki-n00b here, so I apologize in advance for any wiki-gaffes).
[[User:XStylus|XStylus]] ([[User talk:XStylus|talk]]) 09:28, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

:That cat was renamed to [[:Category:Funimation Entertainment]]. ···[[User:Nihonjoe|<span style="color:green;">日本穣</span>]]<sup>[[Help:Japanese|?]] · <small>[[User talk:Nihonjoe|Talk to Nihonjoe]]</small></sup> 18:45, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

::Ah. I'll just create a redirect then. [[User:XStylus|XStylus]] ([[User talk:XStylus|talk]]) 05:42, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
:::I don't think it's proper to create categories that redirect to other categories.--<span style="background:white;color:">[[User:Juhachi|'''<span style="color:black;">十</span>''']][[User talk:Juhachi|'''<span style="color:red;">八</span>''']]</span> 06:29, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

::::Technically, it's not ''possible'' to redirect categories to other categories, this is why we have to use {{tl|category redirect}} in such cases. —[[User:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: blue;">Dino</span>]][[User talk:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: green; font-weight: normal;">guy</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: orange;">1000</span>]] 18:36, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

== Robotech comics ==

I wanna use additional sources regarding the Robotech Franchise I was wondering if this would be considered a reliable source before it would be taken down.[http://robotechcomics.blogspot.com/]

[[User:Dwanyewest|Dwanyewest]] ([[User talk:Dwanyewest|talk]]) 05:09, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
== Spine and back cover characters ==

I've noticed on a few chapter lists that occasionally the characters depicted on the spine (e.g. [[List of Fullmetal Alchemist chapters]]) and back cover (can't remember an example ATM) get listed in addition to those on the front cover. Is this okay, and if so, how should it be formatted? In addition, on the [[List of Tsubasa: Reservoir Chronicle chapters|Tsubasa: Reservoir Chronicle chapter list]], the cover characters from the deluxe edition are also listed - what about listing them for other editions (such as kanzenban and deluxe editions)? —[[User:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: blue;">Dino</span>]][[User talk:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: green; font-weight: normal;">guy</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: orange;">1000</span>]] 17:47, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

:~poke~ Anyone? —[[User:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: blue;">Dino</span>]][[User talk:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: green; font-weight: normal;">guy</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: orange;">1000</span>]] 19:51, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

:Woops, meant to answer sooner. I don't think the back and spine characters really need to be listed. The deluxe editions should, at best, have a basic list and really they don't need listing at all. At best, just a sentence or two noting re-releases in deluxe/kanzenban versions. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 19:55, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

::No prob... ;) That's actually about what I was expecting, and I'll go ahead and remove the characters from the two lists I pointed out above. —[[User:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: blue;">Dino</span>]][[User talk:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: green; font-weight: normal;">guy</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: orange;">1000</span>]] 20:50, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

== Merge discussion gone mad ==

Can a few reasonable, articulate people please join in at [[Talk:Death Busters#Merge proposal]]? I have a really hard time maintaining civil discussions with people who only want to punch me in the face. --[[User:Masamage|Masamage]] [[User talk:Masamage|♫]] 20:34, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

When I'm having to ask folks to calm down and stop the personal arguments, you know something is wrong. :P Its getting quite a bit testy in there, so maybe a little admin presence might be a good thing. I've already left warnings on two folks pages. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 14:37, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
== [[Angel of Darkness]] ==

''[[Angel of Darkness]]'' could really use some love. Its been tagged for notability issues despite it being (I believe) on of the top hentai series in Japan and having a live action US version. Unfortunately, its age does make sources harder to come by, but still, we should be able to do more than what it has now. Any one want to pop in and help out? -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 03:20, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

:What is its age?  In the infobox it says 2007 and 2006, but in the categories it says 1994?  If it really is from 1994 maybe [[Anime from Akira to Princess Mononoke]] might have something on it? -[[User:Malkinann|Malkinann]] ([[User talk:Malkinann|talk]]) 03:35, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

::Woops...my boo boo. The original series is from 1994. I think the live action is 2006, or at least that's when critical mass announced it was releasing it. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 03:48, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

:There's another problem, too: the live action show is listed as an OVA, which is impossible since it's live action. How do we deal with direct-to-video live action releases? ···[[User:Nihonjoe|<span style="color:green;">日本穣</span>]]<sup>[[Help:Japanese|?]] · <small>[[User talk:Nihonjoe|Talk to Nihonjoe]]</small></sup> 05:15, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

::Create an infobox for [[V-Cinema]].--[[User:Nohansen|Nohansen]] ([[User talk:Nohansen|talk]]) 05:19, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

:::It might be useful to create another infobox for live action straight to video releases for the animanga infobox. ···[[User:Nihonjoe|<span style="color:green;">日本穣</span>]]<sup>[[Help:Japanese|?]] · <small>[[User talk:Nihonjoe|Talk to Nihonjoe]]</small></sup> 06:00, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

::Yeah, it seemed the closest box for what we had available at the time. Feel free to change though :) -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 13:38, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

:::Why not just add a live-action switch to the OVA box? —[[User:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: blue;">Dino</span>]][[User talk:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: green; font-weight: normal;">guy</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: orange;">1000</span>]] 17:43, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

::::That would work, too. ···[[User:Nihonjoe|<span style="color:green;">日本穣</span>]]<sup>[[Help:Japanese|?]] · <small>[[User talk:Nihonjoe|Talk to Nihonjoe]]</small></sup> 18:45, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

::::That seems like a nice clean way of doing it, rather than adding to our long list of boxes :) -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 19:52, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

:::::All right, I'll add a switch in a second; if there's a category or something like that that this should auto-categorize articles into, please point it out for me. —[[User:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: blue;">Dino</span>]][[User talk:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: green; font-weight: normal;">guy</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: orange;">1000</span>]] 20:18, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

:::::{{done}}[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template%3AInfobox_animanga%2FOVA&diff=247241903&oldid=234395568]. I set it up to change the title link to [[V-Cinema]], but I'm not sure that's the best possible linktext... any suggestions? Also, note that it currently still sorts articles to [[:Category:Anime OVAs]]. —[[User:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: blue;">Dino</span>]][[User talk:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: green; font-weight: normal;">guy</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: orange;">1000</span>]] 20:24, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

::::::Since the OVA infobox already has a switch for [[Original net animation|ONA]], I think a separate infobox is better... The same way we have a separate one for animated TV series ([[Template:Infobox animanga/Anime]]) and another one for live-action TV series ([[Template:Infobox animanga/Drama]]).--[[User:Nohansen|Nohansen]] ([[User talk:Nohansen|talk]]) 02:35, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

A different method would be to follow [[Template:Infobox animanga/Movie]]... Rename [[Template:Infobox animanga/OVA]] to [[Template:Infobox animanga/Video]] with a switch for animated (OVAs) and live-action (V-Cinema) projects. Give original net animations a separate infobox.--[[User:Nohansen|Nohansen]] ([[User talk:Nohansen|talk]]) 02:35, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

[[Template:Infobox animanga/ONA]] was created and a live-action switch was added to [[Template:Infobox animanga/Video]]. [[Template:Infobox animanga/OVA]] redirects to [[Template:Infobox animanga/Video]] and works just fine. ''[[Angel of Darkness]]'' now has a V-Cinema infobox and is (provisionally) categorized as [[:Category:Direct-to-video films]]. I say "provisionally" because I don't know if a V-Cinema category will be created (will have to take that up with the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Films/Japanese cinema task force|Japanese cinema task force]]).--[[User:Nohansen|Nohansen]] ([[User talk:Nohansen|talk]]) 23:42, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

== [[Excel Saga]] ==

With the recent focus on improving articles and lists to FL, I think that previously demoted articles have lost out. One that has registered on my radar is [[Excel Saga]], which was previously GA, and is now currently a C (meeting B criteria except for sources), but with 8 issue tags. The project discussion concerning the demotion can be found [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Anime and manga/Archive 29#Excel Saga|here]] and the review discussion is [[Wikipedia:Featured article review/Excel Saga/archive1|here]].

I've made some very minor changes considering the work that needs doing (removing red links, reordering existing paraghraphs to fit MoS), and there is no "quick fix", but I'd really like to see this article improve to the point where we are building on it rather then fixing it. [[User:Dandy Sephy|Dandy Sephy]] ([[User talk:Dandy Sephy|talk]]) 13:20, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
== AFD backlog ==

There are currently [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Anime and manga|21 articles up for AFD]] that needs the project's attention. Many of the AFDs have few to any comments on them and needs additional comments before a consensus is formed. --'''[[User:TheFarix|Farix]]''' ([[User talk:TheFarix|Talk]]) 20:20, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

== Reborn! seasons ==

In [[Talk:List of Reborn! episodes#Season split]] there is discussion to separate the article in sublists but there is a problem with the DVDs to divide them since a DVD season is just made of 8 episodes. Discussion are welcome. Regards.[[User:Tintor2|Tintor2]] ([[User talk:Tintor2|talk]]) 00:32, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

== Re: New cat ==

Do we really need a [[:Category:Summer anime and manga]] (or other currently-uncreated seasonal categories)?--<span style="background:white;color:">[[User:Juhachi|'''<span style="color:black;">十</span>''']][[User talk:Juhachi|'''<span style="color:red;">八</span>''']]</span> 02:24, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

:I can't think of any valid reason to have such a category at all. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 02:38, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

:It's currently at [[Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2008 October 28#Category:Summer anime and manga|CfD]] for a rename discussion. --'''[[User:TheFarix|Farix]]''' ([[User talk:TheFarix|Talk]]) 03:04, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
== Gundam cleanup ==

The cleanup of the Gundam articles is long overdue. I've started with the articles related to ''[[Mobile Fighter G Gundam]]''. For one, their isn't as many of them to sort through as with other series. Second, it doesn't appear to have as many fans "defending" them from cleanup and merger. I've merged most of the mobile suits into [[List of Mobile Fighter G Gundam mobile suits|List of ''Mobile Fighter G Gundam'' mobile suits]] <s>except for two, the Shining Gundam and God Gundam</s>. I've also when through and tagged all of the character articles for merger. If anyone likes to help or rewrite some of the descriptions, then they are more then welcome. --'''[[User:TheFarix|Farix]]''' ([[User talk:TheFarix|Talk]]) 00:02, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
:With around only ten characters that need to have descriptions, they should fit within a section in the main article. The different Gundam should be able to fit under their descriptions or within an appropriate section depending on their relevance also. [[User:TTN|TTN]] ([[User talk:TTN|talk]]) 00:50, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
::I have to disagree, there are more then ten characters that play significant roles in the story. And even with ten characters, that's way too many to merge into the main article. There are also several mobile suits that don't fit under a particular character to be merged into the character list, such as those of the Dark Army.<small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:TheFarix|TheFarix]] ([[User talk:TheFarix|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheFarix|contribs]]) 20:04, October 26, 2008</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->
:::Which characters besides the five main characters, Schwarz, Rain, Allenby, Master Asia, and Kyoji need to be mentioned in detail? The support characters can briefly be mentioned under the main characters, other Gundam users appear too briefly to really matter outside of the episode list, and characters like Yunfat and Ishikawa don't really need to be mentioned outside of the plot summary. As long as the descriptions are devoid of unnecessary plot details, as they should be, the list should be an appropriate size. Most of the Gundam details are completely unnecessary, so they really don't need to be listed in much detail as in that list. Only the ones important to the plot should have any details. [[User:TTN|TTN]] ([[User talk:TTN|talk]]) 01:22, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Wong and Ishikawa are the prime antagonists for most of the series, so they certainly merit being mentioned. Gentle Chapman and Michelo Chariot are also recurring enemies who played a fairly significant role in the series. Putting all the characters on the main series article would simply bloat it.[[User:Kuwabaratheman|Kuwabaratheman]] ([[User talk:Kuwabaratheman|talk]]) 01:30, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
::::I have to agree with Farix and Kuwabaratheman here. There is too much character information to put into the main article, and in cases such as this it is perfectly acceptable and correct to create a character list article. ···[[User:Nihonjoe|<span style="color:green;">日本穣</span>]]<sup>[[Help:Japanese|?]] · <small>[[User talk:Nihonjoe|Talk to Nihonjoe]]</small></sup> 05:56, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

:Other then the main characters, all of the rest have been merged. I think we can allow the main character articles time to demonstrate their notability. So, which series should I work on next? --'''[[User:TheFarix|Farix]]''' ([[User talk:TheFarix|Talk]]) 18:50, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Can I get someone to review and weight in on what is going on at {{tl|Infobox Mobile Suit}}? --'''[[User:TheFarix|Farix]]''' ([[User talk:TheFarix|Talk]]) 12:29, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

== Question on layout style ==

I am working on cleaning up the layout style for [[Popotan]] to have it conform better with general layout guidelines. However I'm at an impass on how to do it. Normally one puts the first medium, in this case the visual novel, in the lead. However, the anime is the only item released in English, though it is based off the visual novel. The visual novel still notable though. Further complicating things is that the plot of both series differ wildly with only some key characters remaining the same in both, though even of those that remain some of the relatioships change. Thus because all the other anime series based off of games I've looked only one kind of follows this, [[Tsukihime]] which split the visual novel from the anime, though there is also an unofficial translation of the visual novel.
So basically i'm asking what is a good way to redesign the page and should the anime be split off into its own page?[[User:Jinnai|Jinnai]] ([[User talk:Jinnai|talk]]) 22:03, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

:I'm not the best person to ask, but I would say that if the plot differs so greatly between the two media, they may be better off in separate articles (someone else will probably come along and confirm this if I got it right). Other than that, the fact that a series (or a specific adaptation of a series) has not been licensed for an English-language release (as is the case with almost every anime/manga franchise in existance anyway) shouldn't have any bearing on the overall structure and focus of the article - it still needs to conform to our [[WP:MOS-AM|MoS]]. —[[User:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: blue;">Dino</span>]][[User talk:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: green; font-weight: normal;">guy</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: orange;">1000</span>]] 22:31, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
::Okay, I'll wait and see, but [[WP:MoS]] is guideline, not policy, so there is some room for flexibility.[[User:Jinnai|Jinnai]] ([[User talk:Jinnai|talk]]) 23:25, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
:::[[WP:MOS-AM]] is not the same as [[WP:MOS]]. And yes, its a guideline, but one that you should follow without a truly compelling reason not to. For Popotan, it sounds as if the anime and visual novel are distinct enough to warrant separate articles, but like Dinoguy1000 I'm going to defer to someone else familiar with both series. Also, keep in mind that if they are split, notability will have to be established within both articles. If one or the other can't establish notability, then it would be better to keep them together. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 00:31, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
::::While I think establishing notability for both should be easy, if somehow no one can, how would a setup be done in such a situation where the plots of both the anime and game differ so widely? EDIT: I believe if such were the case, I could probably not follow [[WP:MOS-AM]] as well as most articles.[[User:Jinnai|Jinnai]] ([[User talk:Jinnai|talk]]) 01:21, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::If its split, I'd say look at [[Air (visual novel)]] as a guide for that article, as it is currently a GA article. For the anime article, it can follow the MOS-AM, it just won't have separate media sections adn the like unless there is also a manga or other media that was based on the anime (rather than the game). Though, if these are the only two media for the series, the differences could be summarized relatively easily within a singular article as well. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 02:42, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::There is a very short manga series <s>and a drama CD</s>. I do not know much about them at this time. EDIT: The 2 items I thought were drama CDs are special DVD with interviews (not sure if character interviews or VA interviews). The other looks to be something based on the TV series, dialogue or something. There is also a magazine and the usual CDs and artbooks.[[User:Jinnai|Jinnai]] ([[User talk:Jinnai|talk]]) 10:12, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::::If the CDs/artbooks are based on the anime, then there is your media section :) -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 14:59, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
== Gundam navboxes ==

I've [[WT:GUNDAM#Gundam navboxes|started a discussion]] about rewriting the various [[:Category:Gundam templates|Gundam navboxes]] over on the Gundam project, I'd really appreciate any comments anyone here might have on the matter. —[[User:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: blue;">Dino</span>]][[User talk:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: green; font-weight: normal;">guy</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: orange;">1000</span>]] 18:54, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

== DB Char Merges, Revisit ==

As per the closures in September, the issue of whether [[Frieza]] and [[Master Roshi]] should be merged into the character list is now [[Talk:List of Dragon Ball characters#Revisits of merging Frieza and Master Roshi|being revisited]]. Your views would be welcomed. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 18:00, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
== [[Ranma ½]] characters ==

I was going to start a discussion on the page itself, but I wanted a project opinion first as The amount of characters covered on various pages for this show is ridiculous. 

[[List of Ranma ½ minor characters]], [[List of minor Ranma ½ characters (anime)]] and [[List of minor Ranma ½ characters (manga)]] are completely unnecessary. Next to None of the characters covered in those lists plays much more then bit-roles, and have no in-universe or real world notability (in this case I'd not use furinkan as evidence of notability). I have difficulty believing they would pass a AfD nomination. I'm only halfway through season 4 at the moment, but the characters that are known to me on those pages are mostly "pointless" (a few exceptions are there). While these characters are minor, there are far more notable 'minor" characters that are being assumed to be "major" characters. Basically the "qualification" for minor characters is wrong. 

Additionally then character list on the main article is obscenely long. The main article should not be listing '''21''' characters. With the exception of Ranma, Akane, Genma, Soun, Ryoga, Happosai, most, if not all of them could easily be "demoted" to a seperate article. For example, blanking 
[[List of Ranma ½ minor characters]] and moving them to there. Currently the character list is half the article size at a rough guess

On top of that, there are ridiculous over long, unsourced articles for many of the more notable characters. While [[Shampoo (Ranma ½)]] is a notable character, her article reads like it was taken straight from a fansite (and probably was). Also her page is rated a B from two years ago. I really doubt that rating is valid now

I'm after feedback from the project, but my wish is to:
*Nominate [[List of minor Ranma ½ characters (anime)]] and [[List of minor Ranma ½ characters (manga)]] for AfD, 
*Take the few salvageable characters in [[List of Ranma ½ minor characters]] and create a new article [[List of Ranma ½ characters]], then AfD [[List of Ranma ½ minor characters]]
*Copy the character list from [[Ranma ½]] to [[List of Ranma ½ characters]]
*Cut down the list on [[Ranma ½]] to a suitable length of only the most important characters (basically the list above)

*After the above is done, look into the separate character articles

Basically, I think people have turned wikipedia into a ranma fan site even though I believe there is a actual ranma wiki. There are potential copyright violations inside these massive character articles, and the articles simply don't seem to meet basic requirements for inclusion or article quality. However  due to the size and type of the articles and relative importance of the show, I'm not willing to dive in and start changing everything without discussion and consensus. Also while it originally seemed sensible to me to discuss this on the article page, I think the project needs to take an active role here to ensure these pages meet the correct standards (even if its only to start or C class) and changes aren't dictated or undone purely by the ranma fanboys. I'm currently watching the show (and editing the episode lists) so I'm in a good position to take an active role if others aren't so familiar [[User:Dandy Sephy|Dandy Sephy]] ([[User talk:Dandy Sephy|talk]]) 06:33, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

:Yikes, that certainly is a mess. While I like Ranma, I'm far from an expert on it, so I haven't ever bothered checking out the pages to improve them. There needs to be definite changes made there, though. At the very least, the three minor character pages should be merged together, and cut down somewhat. Not all of those characters should be cut, but a good deal should. And there definitely needs to be a shortening of the list on the main page.

:I would advocate splitting the main page section off to [[List of Ranma ½ characters]], while leaving behind descriptions for a few characters on the main page (Ranma, Akane, Ryoga, maybe a couple of others), and then merging all three minor character lists into one. That would be a good start to getting those pages up to par.[[User:Kuwabaratheman|kuwabaratheman]] ([[User talk:Kuwabaratheman|talk]]) 06:43, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

::Aye, if I wasn't actively editing pages within the franchise I'd not have noticed either. I agree not everyone is the minor lists needs to be cut, but it's really difficult to find more then one or two that are notable in any way although as noted I'm only halfway through the anime. [[User:Dandy Sephy|Dandy Sephy]] ([[User talk:Dandy Sephy|talk]]) 06:49, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

:::I'd be more than happy to help out with a [[List of Ranma ½ chapters|chapter list]] for the series, but the fact that the English version has fewer volumes than the Japanese version has been scaring me of for at least half a year. I have had thoughts on a version of {{tl|Graphic novel list}} to handle this type of thing, but I just haven't acted on it yet. Other than that, You're probably going to be sorely disappointed and at least a tad peeved that I don't really have any intention of helping out with the character articles and lists - they've never been an area of interest for me (editing-wise), and frankly, I hate the very idea of working on them. —[[User:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: blue;">Dino</span>]][[User talk:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: green; font-weight: normal;">guy</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: orange;">1000</span>]] 08:06, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

I'll leave it until the weekend and if theres been no further input, I'll look into sandboxing a new character list using the existing pages, and a shorter list for the main article. Dinoguy, it's not a problem if you don't want to involve yourself in the actual editing of the pages, I'm happy to do the "list" ones myself (although I'm wary of not including characters who are notable later on in the show, so any help 'ticking off" notable ones would be good), I'm just looking for project feedback on bringing some sense of order to things. I think tackling the chapters is a much harder task due to the reasons you give, so I'm happy to leave that to you *lets out an evil laugh* [[User:Dandy Sephy|Dandy Sephy]] ([[User talk:Dandy Sephy|talk]]) 04:14, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
:I would've already tried something with the chapter list if I had access to the Japanese tankōbon, to see how the chapters actually line up (cue anyone else who owns or has access to them). As for the main characters, I've never had the opportunity to watch the anime, and it's been awhile since I read the manga... and I've never exactly been good at separating main and secondary characters anyways. =P —[[User:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: blue;">Dino</span>]][[User talk:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: green; font-weight: normal;">guy</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: orange;">1000</span>]] 17:22, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

== Nausicaä merge ==

I have made a suggestion that [[Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind]] and [[Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind (manga)]] be merged back into a single article that better reflects that the manga is the primary work from which the film is adapted, and to more thoroughly cover the entire work than the two rather poor separate articles do. Thoughts appreciated at [[Talk:Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind#Merge Film and Manga]]. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 07:11, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

== Animated film awards ==

I was wondering whether some of the [[Annie Awards]] would fall under our scope. The [[Annie Award for Best Animated Feature]] has a couple anime nominated for it, and the other Annie Awards have anime nominations as well. [[Anime News Network]] comments occasionally on them (notably by lamenting the lack of anime that are nominated or win awards), so would placing the project banner on these be appropriate? I normally wouldn't suggest this for film awards that happen to have anime nominated, but these awards are animation-centric. — [[User:Sephiroth BCR|<span style="font-family:Segoe Script; color:navy;">'''sephiroth bcr'''</span>]] <sup style="font-family:Verdana;">'''([[User talk:Sephiroth BCR|<span style="color:blue;">converse</span>]])'''</sup> 08:29, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

== One Piece episode list ==

There is currently a discussion at [[Talk:List of One Piece episodes#FUNimation Seasons]] regarding the need to split [[List of One Piece episodes]] into season articles, and whether we should wait for the Funi season splits to be known or go ahead and split on the Japanese seasons then change as the Funi ones are announced. Additional input would be helpful as its currently just two experienced, and one new editor in the discussion. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 16:29, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
== names with special characters inside an article ==

I am wondering how we deal with names of people who use alias (and have been published under them) with special characters. This does not apply to article titles or subtopics which fall under naming convention rules for special reasons, ie indexing. The specific case at hand is with [[Poyoyon♡Rock]], refering what he actually calls himself when publishing certain titles. Other uses in an article I usually remove the ♡ symbol.[[User:Jinnai|Jinnai]] ([[User talk:Jinnai|talk]]) 18:59, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

:I don't see a problem with including such pseudonyms in the article as long as they can be verified. The article title shouldn't have such characters in it, but having them in the article body is fine. ···[[User:Nihonjoe|<span style="color:green;">日本穣</span>]]<sup>[[Help:Japanese|?]] · <small>[[User talk:Nihonjoe|Talk to Nihonjoe]]</small></sup> 23:24, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

== [[Dragon Ball: Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return!!]] ==

There is some edit warring going on at this article regarding character names and the like, and whether Jumpland's names are more authoritative than the Toei character sheets. See [[Talk:Dragon Ball: Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return!!#Official names]]. There is also a second discussion as to whether the article should be renamed at [[Talk:Dragon Ball: Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return!!#Moving the article?]], again wondering if the Jumpland English name is "official" enough to use until Funimation releases their dub. Both could use some additional opinions. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 21:20, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
:I'm not sure why the English title used by Jumpland (Shūeisha) wouldn't be "official enough". It's definitely more official than the fan-translation we're currently using, anyway. [[User:Erigu|Erigu]] ([[User talk:Erigu|talk]]) 22:06, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

== [[Star Ocean: The Second Story]] ==

Per my own remarks on Tales of the Abyss above, I have started a discussion about merging [[Star Ocean: The Second Story (manga)]] into its video game article. The discussion is available at [[Talk:Star Ocean: The Second Story#Merge]] and project input would be appreciated. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 06:26, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
== Tales of the Abyss anime ==

Hey, After watching it, I felt like creating a wiki page for [[Tales of the Abyss: The Animation]], which didn't exist until I went to work on it. I've been at it alone for a minute. I could use some help with it as I'm a new user to the whole wikipedia thing.

I've contributed to other things before, such as the page of [[Tales of Symphonia: Dawn of the New World]], I just recently became a member is all. Anyway, whoever wants to pitch in, go right on ahead.[[User:DarkenedSkye|DarkenedSkye]] ([[User talk:DarkenedSkye|talk]]) 05:17, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

:As a note, considering Tales of the Abyss's anime is not significantly different from its game, that new article has been redirected back to the game page. At most, it needs a standard episode list, but not a full article. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 05:37, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

:As a note, a discussion regarding whether the anime should have a separate article is now occurring at [[Talk:Tales of the Abyss#Okay, about the anime.]] -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 07:07, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
::The anime adaptation section is a bit lacking though, especially considering the rest of the article.[[User:Jinnai|Jinnai]] ([[User talk:Jinnai|talk]]) 19:40, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

:::Oh, I agree there, but the created article didn't really add anything, just a summary of the first episode. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 19:42, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

== One Piece merge discussion ==

[[Image:Merge-arrow.svg|50px|Merge arrow]] Hello, we are currently conducting a merge discussion ([[Talk:List_of_One_Piece_characters#List_of_minor_One_Piece_characters|here]]) about trimming down and merging the [[List of minor One Piece characters]] into the main character list.  Any extra input in discussion would be much appreciated.  Thanks!  --[[User:Kraftlos|Kraftlos]] ([[User talk:Kraftlos|talk]]) 06:17, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
== Absorb [[WP:GUNDAM]] as work group? ==

Given that it is a series specific WikiProject and that most of its participants are also participants of this WikiProject, what are everyone else's thoughts on absorbing [[WP:GUNDAM]] into [[WP:ANIME]] as work group? --'''[[User:TheFarix|Farix]]''' ([[User talk:TheFarix|Talk]]) 15:43, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

:Strongly support and something I think should have been done awhile back. I think we should also look at doing the same with [[WP:SM]]. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 15:53, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

:It's only a minor semantic difference. Absorb them if they want to be absorbed, leave 'em alone if they don't. --[[User:Masamage|Masamage]] [[User talk:Masamage|♫]] 16:29, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

:'''Neutral''': I am with [[User:Masamage|Masamage]] on this one. [[User:G.A.S|<span style="font-family:Brush Script MT; font-size:large;">G.A.S</span>]][[User talk:G.A.S|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;">talk</span></sup>]] 16:52, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

:The question is "are they following our practices"? If they are already working on articles with a tendency to use our MoS and other methods then I don't see the difference being much. If they are doing stuff differently to us, then it would be of more benefit. [[User:Dandy Sephy|Dandy Sephy]] ([[User talk:Dandy Sephy|talk]]) 17:14, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

:I'd say do it... and the same with [[WP:SM]], per Collectonian. I don't see there being any resistance from the individual projects, they may even welcome us assuming some of the administrative tasks for them. —[[User:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: blue;">Dino</span>]][[User talk:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: green; font-weight: normal;">guy</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: orange;">1000</span>]] 18:24, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
::The thing is, WP:SM at least already does work pretty closely with the project. Really, it comes down to only a difference in the name. Personally I like the name, and it has historical pleasantness for the participants, and most importantly I'd rather not spend doing a lot of clerical work--changing the name everywhere--when we could be doing things that are actual improvements. So if an already-cooperative WikiProject ''wants'' to become a task force, I say let 'em. If not, I say don't waste the time. --[[User:Masamage|Masamage]] [[User talk:Masamage|♫]] 18:55, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
:::I'd say absorb it if no one opposes in a reasonable time frame.  Gundam series is the largest anime franchise in Japan, (50 billion dollar annual income) yet the western world seems to take much less notice of it and not a lot of editors that actually with time are doing much in that project.  I personally is quite disappointed with TTN's actions, and have no time to do much, if sources are needed, ask me, I personally got quite some reputation in the Chinese Gundam fan base, other than that, everything seems to be so pointless and all asian fictional items are simply ignored and dubbed to have no notability in any sense by the ignorant anyway. [[User:Mythsearcher|MythSearcher]]<sup>[[User talk:Mythsearcher|talk]]</sup> 14:28, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Yeah, that makes sense. If not enough attention is being paid by project members to even comment on the issue, it is probably better as a TF. --[[User:Masamage|Masamage]] [[User talk:Masamage|♫]] 15:40, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::I was going to mention the general lack of activity over at WP:GUNDAM as one of the reasons to absorb the group as a work group, but I decided against it. I have no delusions that absorbing them as a work group will mean an increase in activity. But they have no article assessment, no cleanup, no peer review. What they do have is a crude deletion sorting system, a short TODO list, and an outdated directory of some of the Gundam-related categories and lists. --'''[[User:TheFarix|Farix]]''' ([[User talk:TheFarix|Talk]]) 16:04, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
:'''Neutral'''. I think if the participants of that project are fine with it, then it can be changed to a task force. Otherwise, leave things as they are. ···[[User:Nihonjoe|<span style="color:green;">日本穣</span>]]<sup>[[Help:Japanese|?]] · <small>[[User talk:Nihonjoe|Talk to Nihonjoe]]</small></sup> 15:20, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
:'''Support'''. I'm not a project member, but I do enough editing on Gundam articles as it is to know that much of them are in dire need of greater review and editing. WP:Gundam hasn't got very many active editors, and whatever we can do to get more bodies in the business of making articles better is a worthwhile cause. [[User:MalikCarr|MalikCarr]] ([[User talk:MalikCarr|talk]]) 08:40, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
:'''Support''' I'm a former project member. I don't see any reason not to absorb it. Centralization and more eyes is always a good thing. Maybe if people were watching, we'd have less drama as well. [[User:Kyaa the Catlord|Kyaa the Catlord]] ([[User talk:Kyaa the Catlord|talk]]) 08:42, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
:'''Neutral'''. Support on two conditions: If they want to become a work group. And if this project's editors, doing most of the administrative work, are willing to take them in. -- [[User:Goodraise|Goodraise]] ([[User talk:Goodraise|talk]]) 09:10, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
:I believe we are already doing all of the admin, as all of the [[WP:GUNDAM]] articles are under a shared scope with [[WP:ANIME]]. Regards, [[User:G.A.S|<span style="font-family:Brush Script MT; font-size:large;">G.A.S</span>]][[User talk:G.A.S|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;">talk</span></sup>]] 13:38, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
:'''Neutral''' I'm not sure how much good it would do. We wouldn't get any more people who are interested in/have knowledge of UC Gundam stuff than we do now, most likely. [[User:Jtrainor|Jtrainor]] ([[User talk:Jtrainor|talk]]) 18:27, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

== List of Episode formatting ==

I'm working on Sailor Moon where there are several versions and this causes problems... but I also noticed that the episode list formatting is not 100% consistent. So I'd like to request somewhat of a template to help out the projects so that everything can be in line. It doesn't have to be a "template" as in must make one, but something like a mini guide for how to deal with episode listings.
[[List_of_Sailor_Moon_episodes_(season_1)]]

Currently has a problem. That is, the secondary title is actually a sub title by ADV, however, this doesn't match the translation 100% for what the Japanese company themselves most likely would use. For example, the title translates as Pretty Sailor Solider Sailor Moon, where "senshi" translates into "soldier" however the box set translates it as "warrior" causing a problem there. In addition there is the dub title, but not all of the episodes were dubbed. Technically the dub came before the sub, but the Japanese before the dub...

As the table is now, it is confusing as to which is which... Which is the dub title that translates the romaji? And what is the subtitle version...

A great number of episodes were deleted, as they were in Dragonball Z, which has similar issues. (except for the separate subbing company). Pokemon also tried to deal with this issue, and even though they aren't rated yet, I think you can still see the issue. What do you do when there is no English title?

I tried to solve it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Hitsuji_Kinno/Sailor_Moon_episode_list/

But you can see the ongoing issues... The "N/A" doesn't look pretty repeated, even though this table is somewhat functional.

I'd like to open it up to the parent project to come up with an episode list format that will work for deleted English episodes. With multiple formats, especially since the subtitle versions have a nasty habit of coming second and having a different title from the sub. Does anyone have ideas on how to format the tables so they don't look like a mess, but are easy to read even with deletions/additions to the table? If there are any, I'd like to have somewhat of a stable guide for this so that offspring projects from AMP can use said table and it'll be easier for us to make it featured status.

JP Episode Number
EN Episode Number
Dub title
Sub title
Translated title
Romaji title
Japanese title
Japanese Air date
English Air date
Description

These are the fields I can think of. If anyone has any more, please add them to the list. The idea is to make it intuitive to read.

Thank you--[[User:Hitsuji Kinno|Hitsuji Kinno]] ([[User talk:Hitsuji Kinno|talk]]) 23:30, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

:Putting all the English titles into the RTitle field would work, right?  All the other pieces of information can be fit into the existing fields.  How to format the RTitle field... well, that's something for discussion.  —[[Special:Contributions/TangentCube|tan³]] ''[[User talk:TangentCube|tx]]'' 00:44, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

:Also, aren't we ''not'' supposed to give our own translations when a professional company has already done so for an English market?  —[[Special:Contributions/TangentCube|tan³]] ''[[User talk:TangentCube|tx]]'' 00:46, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

:Um, Hitsuji Kinno, it would really have been appropriate for you to mention the reason you are asking is that your suggestion is being disputed elsewhere. Initially at the Sailor Moon ep list talk page, and this is currently being discussed at [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Sailor Moon#List of Sailor Moon Episodes]]. I disagreed with this idea as the list's current format is valid and fully consistent and can already be handled with our episode template's current set up. Having another English title field is completely unnecessary. The SM episode list follows the format used in other series that has both a sub and dub English title, including [[List of Dragon Ball episodes]] and [[List of Tokyo Mew Mew episodes]]. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 02:12, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

:There is a point to the lack of consistency.  See [[List of One Piece episodes]], which lists the dub name, sub name and romanji name, [[List of Zatch Bell! episodes]] which has the dub name and romanji but no sub, and [[List of Yu-Gi-Oh! media]] which doesn't list romanji at all.  Personally, I think listing a sub name qualifies as original research unless the original company that made the anime officially stands by it (which I don't think is the case for One Piece or Sailor Moon), and speculating on what the company ''would'' think is official is very definitely OR.  (Although for the record, the official translation of ''Bishōjo Senshi Sērā Mūn'' is actually "Pretty Soldier Sailor Moon".  There is no extra "Sailor".) [[User:JuJube|JuJube]] ([[User talk:JuJube|talk]]) 02:29, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

::Alas, none of those have actually been cleaned up by the project of late, beyond some basic stuff on the One Piece list. An a subtitle name is not original research, as we are talking about the official subtitle name, not some created one or fantranslation. Adding an additional "correct" translation, which it what I believe is being suggested as an option above, would be OR. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 02:40, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

::An additional issue is that I believe ADV's subs are not something that Toei approved on.  Pioneer's for S/SuperS may be, and there's nothing official for Stars at all. [[User:JuJube|JuJube]] ([[User talk:JuJube|talk]]) 02:52, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
:::It doesn't matter of Toei approved them or not. They were used on the official English releases, that makes them the official titles. Only Stars has no official English title. All the rest have 2- the dub, and what was used for the uncut releases from Pioneer and ADV.-- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 02:54, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Ah, I see. [[User:JuJube|JuJube]] ([[User talk:JuJube|talk]]) 03:07, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

::I'd like to point out that the One Piece ep list doesn't have any sub names, it just has the 4Kids and FUNi dub names. —[[User:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: blue;">Dino</span>]][[User talk:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: green; font-weight: normal;">guy</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: orange;">1000</span>]] 17:23, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
:::I'm guessing (hoping) the Funi dub and sub names are the same? -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 17:27, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
::::No idea, I've only seen some of their dubbed episodes, back when CN was still airing One Piece, and haven't even seen any DVDs at the area Wal-Marts (not that I'd be able to buy them anyway... -_-;; ) —[[User:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: blue;">Dino</span>]][[User talk:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: green; font-weight: normal;">guy</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: orange;">1000</span>]] 18:45, 31 October 2008 (UTC)


Either way there is a larger formatting issue... any proposals on the floor? Oh and translations aren't OR according to the MOS. They are acceptable. But beyond that, I think it would be easier if we made it a template. 'cause right now it's hard to read said Sailor Moon episode table. And it's hard for the other projects and pages to know how to format their table. So having one table and format to follow will make it easier overall.--[[User:Hitsuji Kinno|Hitsuji Kinno]] ([[User talk:Hitsuji Kinno|talk]]) 15:33, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

:Personally, I'd be fine with just getting rid of one of the possible titles. I'm not sure if it's really necessary to have the Japanese title written twice (once in each writing system). Failing that, there's always Aux parameters. -- [[User:Ned Scott|Ned Scott]] 04:02, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

== Chapter List Format ==

[[User:Goodraise]] has proposed a new way of formatting the chapter lists for the One Piece list, which he feels is a better format and, if successful here, would like to see applied to other lists. I disagree with the change and the idea. As few other editors edit this particular list, and it could potentially have wider reaching implications, additional project input would be appreciated at [[Talk:List of One Piece chapters#Numbering of chapters within the volumes]]. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 16:15, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
== Case Closed character merges ==

There are two discussions now on going regarding the merging of various individual ''Case Closed'' character articles to either [[List of Case Closed characters]] or [[Black Organization (Case Closed)]]. Please considering stopping by and offering your views at [[Talk:List of Case Closed characters#Character Merges]] (8 characters) and [[Talk:Black Organization (Case Closed)#Character Merges]] (3 characters). Thanks. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 04:05, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

== [[WP:EL]] discussion: When should we link to [[Wikia]]? ==

There is a debate over whether one should link to the Gants Wikia at the [[Gantz]] page. Please see [[Wikipedia_talk:External_links#When_is_linking_to_a_Wikia_acceptable.3F]] [[User:WhisperToMe|WhisperToMe]] ([[User talk:WhisperToMe|talk]]) 09:00, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

== [[List of Reborn! chapters]] ==

Much copy-edit and arrangements has been done since the peer review, which is still open. Could anybody add other comments such as about copy-edit.[[User:Tintor2|Tintor2]] ([[User talk:Tintor2|talk]]) 16:49, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

== [[Talk:List of One Piece characters#Merge-in protagonists|One Piece: more merges]] ==

Hi, I [[Talk:List of One Piece characters#Merge-in protagonists|nominated several articles to be merged]] into [[List of One Piece characters]]. I am announcing this here because I expect this to become very controversial. Also, due to the large fanbase, in case the merge is done, I expect much resistance afterwards. That's why I hope for a strong consensus. Please consider participating in the discussion. Thanks. -- [[User:Goodraise|Goodraise]] ([[User talk:Goodraise|talk]]) 06:38, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
== Edit war in [[Mukuro Rokudo]] ==

User Serpent132 has been editing the [[Mukuro Rokudo]] article, trimming the sections to minimun as it was a FAC. More important, he has been removing information from the lead mentioning it was repeated in other sections. I tried talking to him on his talk page sending info about deletion and reverting edits mentioning WP: Lead and other stuff. However, he has not stopped doing that and in this state is impossible for the article to be GA (is currently a GAC). Im requesting help here because I may also require to be blocked with these edits. Thanks.[[User:Tintor2|Tintor2]] ([[User talk:Tintor2|talk]]) 22:18, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
:Indeed, looks like a vandal to me. Report it at [[WP:ANI]] perhaps? [[User:Melodia|♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫]] ([[User talk:Melodia|talk]]) 23:12, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

::Done.[[User:Tintor2|Tintor2]] ([[User talk:Tintor2|talk]]) 23:52, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
::: I took a look, but it doesn't look like vandalism to me.  See [[WP:VANDAL#NOT]].  My recommendation is to try a little harder to engage in some good faith communication.  --[[User:Elonka|El]][[User talk:Elonka|on]][[Special:Contributions/Elonka|ka]] 01:16, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Discussion has started in [[Talk:Mukuro Rokudo#Edit-warring]]. Please discuss.[[User:Tintor2|Tintor2]] ([[User talk:Tintor2|talk]]) 02:15, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

:User Serpent132 has not responded. Instead, he keeps reverting the edits and has been used [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/86.158.155.29 this anon account] to keep reverting and remove the warning from his talk page. It does not seem it is still good faith.[[User:Tintor2|Tintor2]] ([[User talk:Tintor2|talk]]) 18:21, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

::He has been given a final 3RR warning. Any further reverts can be grounds for a block. ···[[User:Nihonjoe|<span style="color:green;">日本穣</span>]]<sup>[[Help:Japanese|?]] · <small>[[User talk:Nihonjoe|Talk to Nihonjoe]]</small></sup> 19:36, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

:::...and Elonka has now blocked him for 24 hours due to his lack of response and failure to heed the large number of warnings placed on his talk page. ···[[User:Nihonjoe|<span style="color:green;">日本穣</span>]]<sup>[[Help:Japanese|?]] · <small>[[User talk:Nihonjoe|Talk to Nihonjoe]]</small></sup> 00:40, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

But shouldnt the version of the article be reverted to the last version by Darkangel?[[User:Tintor2|Tintor2]] ([[User talk:Tintor2|talk]]) 00:45, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

:I don't think it's a good idea to continue the revert war on in-universe information. --'''[[User:TheFarix|Farix]]''' ([[User talk:TheFarix|Talk]]) 01:41, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

== [[Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Marmalade Boy chapters]] ==

The Marmalade Boy chapter list FLC is not seeing much activity at all. I'd really appreciate getting some additional comments, good or bad. Thanks. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 17:15, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

By the way, the same goes for [[Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Bleach episodes (season 6)]]. Regards.[[User:Tintor2|Tintor2]] ([[User talk:Tintor2|talk]]) 17:17, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
== CfD for renaming [[:Category:Lists of anime television series episodes]] ==

I started a CfD discussion to rename [[:Category:Lists of anime television series episodes]] to [[:Category:Lists of anime episodes]] at [[Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2008 November 4#Category:Lists of anime television series episodes]], in response to an older discussion here. Everyone is invited to comment. —[[User:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: blue;">Dino</span>]][[User talk:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: green; font-weight: normal;">guy</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: orange;">1000</span>]] 19:58, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
:...and the discussion was closed as rename (and it looks like Cydebot already got everything moved, too). W00t! —[[User:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: blue;">Dino</span>]][[User talk:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: green; font-weight: normal;">guy</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: orange;">1000</span>]] 18:37, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

== Removing Azumanga Daioh dojin games ==

I [[Talk:Azumanga_Daioh#Dojin_games|posted]] this a couple days ago, but because of the article's importance wanted to post it here. Did either of those games become notable enough to pass [[WP:N]] for general non-inclusion of fan-related content; or is the nature of the such items of for Azumanga Diaoh important enough that even if indivisually they didn't achieve [[WP:N]] status as as useage for examples they would? As far as I can tell, I can't see any reason they would, but maybe someone here knows something I don't.[[User:Jinnai|Jinnai]] ([[User talk:Jinnai|talk]]) 19:39, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

: Keep in mind that [[WP:N]] does ''not'' regulate the content of an article, but only whether the article as a whole is notable enough to exist. What's included in the article should be determined by editorial consensus as to what's important to the understanding of the subject.
: That said, about a year ago, I asked more or less the same question, about the same article -- given that dojin games are essentially a form of [[fan fiction]], should they be mentioned. I was told that doujin games, if [[WP:V|verifiable]], are both a) somewhat more important than fanfic and b) contribute to understanding fan response to the subject. I haven't found the thread in the archives yet, though (man we're a chattery bunch) though, and it may be that thoughts on the subject have changed. —[[User:Quasirandom|Quasirandom]] ([[User talk:Quasirandom|talk]]) 20:28, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

::Well first off, only one of those 2 has a source. I would also like to see that because I can't see how a fan game would do more than [[fan fiction]] because while the medium is different, the essence of origin is the same: they are both created by fans who, are not the original creators and thus imposing their own ideas onto the content in a similar manner, just another medium of exchange. We also do not use [[fansub]]s or in general, [[fan translation]]s, except in possibly the case of names and titles, which arguably could constitute a higher level of understanding.
::Furthermore, to be honest, you could go to someplace like dlsite or the like and be able to list a load of fan games (mostly hentai, but wikipedia is uncensored), so they could all be viewed as justifiable inclusions of work that are verifiable.[[User:Jinnai|Jinnai]] ([[User talk:Jinnai|talk]]) 21:42, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
== [[Wikipedia_talk:Common_knowledge#Common_Knowledge_for_Popular_Culture_items|Discussion on Common Knowledge]] ==

I am posting it here after debates in [[Talk:List_of_One_Piece_characters]]. As the former article nor [[WP:fict]] doesn't really deal with stuff easily verifable to someone who can see something like a billboard of an item or poster, etc, which could visually represent the item in question, it probably will have ramifications for this project either way.[[User:Jinnai|Jinnai]] ([[User talk:Jinnai|talk]]) 18:34, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

== ''[[E's Otherwise]]'' article name ==

Before starting some much needed work on this article, I've started a discussion regarding its name, as the manga was released simply as ''E'S''. Views on my suggestion of moving the article would be appreciated at [[Talk:E's Otherwise#E'S versus E's versus E's Otherwise]] -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 22:05, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
== [[List of manga series by volume count]] ==

In response to a [[Talk:List of anime series by episode count#What about manga?|discussion]] on [[List of anime series by episode count]], I went ahead and started [[List of manga series by volume count]] with the current cutoff at 35 volumes, which can always be adjusted later. I think I've gotten most of the very longest manga series, but would appreciate help filling in the gaps - especially with regards to chapter counts and the number of pages per volume (I imagine it should be ~220 pages per volume for pretty much every series). In addition, I'm considering listing [light] novels, similar to how the anime series list contains OVAs. Everyone is invited to comment over on the anime list's talk page, in order to keep the discussion in one place, or to add series they're aware of. —[[User:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: blue;">Dino</span>]][[User talk:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: green; font-weight: normal;">guy</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: orange;">1000</span>]] 21:45, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

:I'm not really sure pages per volume is a useful column to have, particularly as it can change between volumes, sometimes dramatically. It isn't always consistent. Also not sure how useful I'd call either list, or how accurate the titles really seem to be, but added Rave Master. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 21:55, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

::Well, I was considering either pages per volume or chapters per volume, but they both have basically the same problem with variability. The only reason I considered either, though, was because the anime list has a column for episode length in minutes - if the page count column gets removed, the minute count one probably should as well. As for usefulness, it was established in previous discussions (somewhere in our archives IIRC) that there is real interest in the longest series, and something like this, with clearly-defined inclusion criteria, is far better than some all-inclusive [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of manga|List of manga]] or [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of anime|anime]]. And for the titles, well, no comment. ;) —[[User:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: blue;">Dino</span>]][[User talk:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: green; font-weight: normal;">guy</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: orange;">1000</span>]] 22:13, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

:::Well...if nothing else, we now see we have a lot of series with no chapter lists :-P (and some of the longest series out there have hideous articles...ewww...). Added a few more to the list :) -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 22:34, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

::::Yep, it adds a new dimension to our cleanup efforts IMO. ^_^ BTW, I'm trying to remember the title of another timetravel manga like ''[[Red River (manga)|Red River]]'', same basic premise (modern girl gets zapped back to ancient Mesopotamia), but it's still ongoing IIRC... and longer than ''Red River'' is. I think it's by a female mangaka who's pretty big in Japan, but largely unheard of elsewhere, if that helps at all. Any ideas? —[[User:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: blue;">Dino</span>]][[User talk:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: green; font-weight: normal;">guy</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: orange;">1000</span>]] 22:48, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

::::: ''[[Crest of the Royal Family]]''. —[[User:Quasirandom|Quasirandom]] ([[User talk:Quasirandom|talk]]) 02:24, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

::::::Oho, that's it! Thanks Quasi! ^_^ —[[User:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: blue;">Dino</span>]][[User talk:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: green; font-weight: normal;">guy</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: orange;">1000</span>]] 18:40, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

::::::: BTW, check out also ''Inochi no Utsuwa'' by [[Kimiko Uehara]], which alas we don't have an article on. —[[User:Quasirandom|Quasirandom]] ([[User talk:Quasirandom|talk]]) 17:49, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

== Discussion to rename [[List of licensed manga in English]] ==

There's currently a discussion to rename [[List of licensed manga in English]] to something that sounds slightly <s>less stupid</s> better. (^_^;) Comments are welcome at [[Talk:List of licensed manga in English#Article name]]. —[[User:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: blue;">Dino</span>]][[User talk:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: green; font-weight: normal;">guy</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: orange;">1000</span>]] 23:10, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
== [[Oh My Goddess!]] needing project love ==

This series could really use some concentrated attention from the project. Its main article is currently being worked on now that the merges proposed back in July have been agreed to (except the film article). However, many of its sub articles, such as its [[List of Oh My Goddess episodes|episode]] and [[List of Oh My Goddess! chapters|chapter]] lists are in really bad shape. All three are in massive need of referencing help as well. A quick look at [[Template:Oh My Goddess]] shows that the character articles are still in bad shape and likely still have some merging to [[List of Oh My Goddess! characters]] left to do. The template itself also needs some serious clean up. And, for a little extra fun, the list names are inconsistent, with some using Oh My Goddess and some using Oh My Goddess!. :-P Anyone want to join the insanity/take on a challenge? Oh, and that OMG external link "template" is back up for [[Wikipedia:Templates for deletion#Template:Oh My Goddess Extlnk|TfD]] again if anyone wants to offer their views. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 09:08, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

:Okay, I couldn't take it anymore, so I've gone through and done a massive cleanup of the episode list[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_Oh_My_Goddess_episodes&diff=251790807&oldid=250838570] taking it from [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_Oh_My_Goddess_episodes&oldid=250838570 this] to [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_Oh_My_Goddess_episodes&oldid=251790807 this] (vast visual improvement, I hope). I suspect someone will pitch a fit cause I switched from that personal {{tl|List of Anime Episodes TV}} to the standard {{tl|Japanese episode list}} but I saw no compelling reason to keep the bulkier template there, and the new version has a standard format for all of the ep lists. The lead still needs a rewrite, it needs much more referencing, and it needs an image, but I hope that's a start to make it less daunting :) -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 16:42, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

::I'll have a look at the template in a minute (surprise surprise ;) ) and see what I can do for it. As for the chapter list... Well, let's just leave that discussion for a bit later, shall we? —[[User:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: blue;">Dino</span>]][[User talk:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: green; font-weight: normal;">guy</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: orange;">1000</span>]] 19:33, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
::...and done with it. How's it look now? —[[User:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: blue;">Dino</span>]][[User talk:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: green; font-weight: normal;">guy</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: orange;">1000</span>]] 19:48, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
:::Already world's better! Thanks :D -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 19:52, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

:Collectonian, have you checked out your books for potential references for OMG?  It'd make it easier to know how to trim if there's a referencing effort first.  --[[User:Malkinann|Malkinann]] ([[User talk:Malkinann|talk]]) 02:50, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

::I know Anime Explosion! has some, but haven't looked at the depth of content yet. Trying to get the merges and structural clean ups done first :) -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 02:53, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

:::If there's a referencing effort first, though, it might help demonstrate the individual notability of Urd, Skuld and K1 so they can get their own articles.  One thing I've noticed is that when character articles get merged to lists, out of universe information seems to get left by the wayside - in [[List of Rose of Versailles characters]], for example, none of the anime voice actors are listed, although they were all in the redirected articles. --[[User:Malkinann|Malkinann]] ([[User talk:Malkinann|talk]]) 03:14, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

::::Oh, I'm not even touching the characters right now (if I were, though, I do keep out of universe info when I merge :P), I was just mentioning it as something to possibly look at (and only with individual discussion). The merging right now is all of the individual articles for the manga, anime, OVA, etc into a singular article (sans the film). I know I pulled out info on Belldandy from the references I have on hand for her article, but don't remember off hand if there was info on the others there. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 03:36, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

== Time Bokan needs major work ==

I need real assistance with the [[Time Bokan]] series I have created this template what is anyone else's opinion.


[[User:Dwanyewest|Dwanyewest]] ([[User talk:Dwanyewest|talk]]) 23:53, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
:It looks good, though I don't really like the red links ;-)  I'd focus on the core articles rather than planning to start new articles.  Template looks fine.  --[[User:Kraftlos|Kraftlos]] ([[User talk:Kraftlos|talk]]) 10:34, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
::Yep, redlinks in animanga navboxes (as well as section links and redirects) are generally a no-no. Think of the navbox as documenting what articles on a given subject Wikipedia ''already has'', it makes creating and maintaining them much easier. ;) —[[User:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: blue;">Dino</span>]][[User talk:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: green; font-weight: normal;">guy</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: orange;">1000</span>]] 18:25, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

If anyone has any additional info on any of the shows it would be most appreciative.

[[User:Dwanyewest|Dwanyewest]] ([[User talk:Dwanyewest|talk]]) 16:22, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

== Infobox comics creator ==

There's an ongoing merge discussion on [[Template talk:Infobox comics creator#Merge into Infobox Person]].  The proposal seems to insinuate that merging the comics creator infobox template with the person infobox will somehow simply things; I don't see how that's possible.  More input in the discussion would be appreciated, it appears to have been open since August.  --[[User:Kraftlos|Kraftlos]] ([[User talk:Kraftlos|talk]]) 10:32, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

:Given the closeness of the two and that I prefer {{tl|Infobox Person}} anyways, it sound like a reasonable proposal. And with just 1,000 transclusions, it's a simple matter to covert over. --'''[[User:TheFarix|Farix]]''' ([[User talk:TheFarix|Talk]]) 13:04, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

::It's reasonable, but [[Template talk:Infobox comics creator#Merge into Infobox Person|in my opinion]] unnecessary and/or unhelpful. --[[User:Kraftlos|Kraftlos]] ([[User talk:Kraftlos|talk]]) 04:47, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
== Mass replacement of words ==

I was wondering if we have a bot that will replace an arbitrary word with another word in an article or a set of articles? Basically, I'm looking for something that lets me fix character name spellings. The article I have in mind is [[List of kingdoms in Twelve Kingdoms]] - I already changed Youko to the official Yoko once, but it got partially reverted. Unfortunately, at the time the MOS still said to use the most popular name so I didn't do anything about it. Now edits have been made making it impossible to revert the names back to what I had without loosing data. So basically, no matter route I take it will be a lot of work. If there isn't a bot like that out there, could anyone tell me the basics to building one myself? I banged my head over the Java bot API awhile back, but I couldn't figure out how to do anything really. --[[User:Eruhildo|Eruhildo]] ([[User talk:Eruhildo|talk]]) 04:01, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
:You could just copy the article's content into [[Microsoft Office Word|Word]] or some equivalent, go to Replace in the Edit tab, and choose what words you want to change. It'll take you all but 30 seconds.--<span style="background:white;color:">[[User:Juhachi|'''<span style="color:black;">十</span>''']][[User talk:Juhachi|'''<span style="color:red;">八</span>''']]</span> 05:44, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
:I basically do what Juhachi suggestioned. I either copy/paste to Notepad for simple stuff, or to Dreamweaver if I need to run regexs. You could use JavaScript to make your own add on to your monobook.js, maybe study some of the other replacement scripts to study the basics (such as lightmouse's date replacement scripts), but definitely TEST lots before using on a real article. Personally, though, I think just copy/replace would be easier. One time thing, then just smack the anon's putting back the wrong spellings. :P -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 05:50, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
:Are you trying to change the names from the most popular to the offical names or vice versa?  Because it should be the most popular/commonly used name.  (haven't looked at the article, just thought I'd mention this).  --[[User:Kraftlos|Kraftlos]] ([[User talk:Kraftlos|talk]]) 12:14, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
::Is there a spelling difference between the official translations in the anime and the novels? There have been cases where it has been successfully argued that the adaption's naming choices are more popular than the original work, and Wikipedia should use those names, but most popular does not ever mean names a few dedicated fans might prefer over the official translations. [[User:Doceirias|Doceirias]] ([[User talk:Doceirias|talk]]) 14:29, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

:::Both official translations use "Yoko", or at least that's how they spell it on their websites. Ah, scripts, didn't think of that one. Found the [[User:Gerbrant/edit/regexReplace.js|edit.regexReplace]] script over at [[WP:WikiProject User scripts|WikiProject User scripts]] and it works great! The article's fixed now. Thanks for the help! --[[User:Eruhildo|Eruhildo]] ([[User talk:Eruhildo|talk]]) 21:43, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
::::[[WP:WIKIED|wikiEd]] has a search and replace function, and IMO, it's useful for editing in general. Far easier to edit stuff when refs are in different colors, links are in different colors, and so on and such forth. — [[User:Sephiroth BCR|<span style="font-family:Segoe Script; color:navy;">'''sephiroth bcr'''</span>]] <sup style="font-family:Verdana;">'''([[User talk:Sephiroth BCR|<span style="color:blue;">converse</span>]])'''</sup> 21:48, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

== CCS vs Tsubasa ==

We're having a lot of problems with people, especially IPs, trying to glut the CCS articles with Tsubasa information, thanks to all the crossover, alternative universe stuff. In particularly, there is a lengthy argument about the removal of a lot of Tsubasa stuff from [[Sakura Kinomoto]], even though I have pointed out repeatedly that they have no sources for their claims, Clamp themselves do not back up those claims, and, the Tsubasa Sakura has her own article at [[Sakura (Tsubasa: Reservoir Chronicle)]]. Anyone want to help out with the arguments here? Some are self fixing as the CCS character articles are merged to the list, but Sakura's will remain a standalone, so need to get things clear there. Current discussion at [[Talk:Sakura Kinomoto#Tsubasa information]]. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 20:58, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
:I'd say cut everything unless it's explicitly sourced, since talking about crossovers opens up all kinds of possibilities for OR and personal opinion. What we really need IMO is an article that talks about CLAMP's crossovers in general, but I have no idea if enough sourced information could be found to allow such an article to assert individual notability, or what it should be named, or how it would be structured, or linked to, etc etc... —[[User:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: blue;">Dino</span>]][[User talk:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: green; font-weight: normal;">guy</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: orange;">1000</span>]] 21:54, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
:::Exactly. That's what I've been trying to do, but meeting with a lot of resistance. And now I have a headache as the latest arguer is a philosophy student and throwing out proofs and stuff *argh* :P -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 22:09, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
::::I saw that... scary stuff, philosophy is. =P If I have time later, I may actually read the whole discussion and offer my own opinion on the matter, people seem to like/gravitate toward my commentary on this type of discussion for some reason. —[[User:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: blue;">Dino</span>]][[User talk:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: green; font-weight: normal;">guy</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: orange;">1000</span>]] 22:12, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
:::::LOL, agreed! Maybe you can figure out what he's actually saying in his last bit, cause it no longer even get it. And its probably because you manage to make sound arguments calmly and in such a way that most folks don't get annoyed, unlike me :P-- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 02:31, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

== ''Bakugan Battle Brawlers'' ==

I would like someone to review {{user|Bakutrix}}'s contributions in relation to ''[[Bakugan Battle Brawlers]]''. Yesterday, I've attempted to cleanup and reorganize the article to bring it in line with [[WP:MOS-AM]] in response to an [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bakugan guide|AFD]] of a related article. Later Bakutrix removed the plot section placeholder and the voice actors from the character section, which I restored. He then reinsert what appears to be [[WP:GUIDE|game guide]] information and removed the critical reception placeholder. Later, after this [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bakugan_Battle_Brawlers&diff=prev&oldid=252480322 particular edit] where he inserted what appears to be [[WP:GUIDE|game guide]] data, I've asked him to explain what he was doing. But there has been no response so far. --'''[[User:TheFarix|Farix]]''' ([[User talk:TheFarix|Talk]]) 02:23, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

:I looked at his contributions starting from [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bakugan_Battle_Brawlers&diff=252271375&oldid=252266595 here]. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bakugan_Battle_Brawlers&diff=next&oldid=252271375 This edit] might be bad faith, but I don't know the topic, so I can't judge it. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bakugan_Battle_Brawlers&diff=prev&oldid=252461768 This revision] (removal of empty section) is typical for inexperienced users. I don't think it's a bad faith edit. And [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bakugan_Battle_Brawlers&diff=next&oldid=252461768 this edit] (removal of voice actor information) could be attributed to a fan perspective, not valuing real-world information, coupled with a lack of understanding of Wikipedia's intention. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bakugan_Battle_Brawlers&diff=next&oldid=252470139 The addition of game guide information] is the last edit I reviewed. I also looked at his talk page. The only messages he's received so far have been negative. But all in all I can't see definite bad faith, rather an inexperienced user who needs to be treated nicely, to improve his overall edit quality. -- [[User:Goodraise|Goodraise]] ([[User talk:Goodraise|talk]]) 03:22, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

::I may have a battle on my hands with the game guide stuff. We probably need more eyes on the article until things settle down. It would be good if an editor familiar with the series and Wikipedia's policies takes a look at the article. Most importantly, determining which characters are the main characters and which are incidental or minor. I get the feeling that the character section is going to be a magnet for sneaking in game guide information. In fact, it already has. --'''[[User:TheFarix|Farix]]''' ([[User talk:TheFarix|Talk]]) 04:07, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
== IP Vandal on Kodocha pages ==

71.243.223.66 continues to vandalize both the [[Kodocha]] page, as well as its talk page. I've been reverting his edits, but it's not stopping him at all, so I'm bringing this issue to the project's attention. User doesn't want to listen to reason, and has repeatedly deleted comments addressed at him on the talk page.[[User:Kuwabaratheman|kuwabaratheman]] ([[User talk:Kuwabaratheman|talk]]) 22:12, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

:The vandalism notice board is [[WP:AIV|that way]]. --'''[[User:TheFarix|Farix]]''' ([[User talk:TheFarix|Talk]]) 22:26, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

:He's back, though a little more constructive then last time. But he has taken to removing/altering [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shugo_Chara!&diff=prev&oldid=252602364 part of a quote] on ''[[Shugo Chara!]]'', misrepresenting what Carlo Santos of ANN says about the manga in the process. --'''[[User:TheFarix|Farix]]''' ([[User talk:TheFarix|Talk]]) 18:07, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

== ''[[Wolf's Rain]]'' ==

TTN has suggested that [[List of Wolf's Rain characters]] be merged into ''[[Wolf's Rain]]''. Please offer your views to the discussion at [[Talk:Wolf's Rain#Character list]]. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 04:06, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

:The discussion has been closed as "do not merge". ···[[User:Nihonjoe|<span style="color:green;">日本穣</span>]]<sup>[[Help:Japanese|?]] · <small>[[User talk:Nihonjoe|Talk to Nihonjoe]]</small></sup> 04:16, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
== MAJOR HELP!!! ==

[[Kinnikuman|This article]] needs some MAJOR help. I came across it while looking at the [[Black hole (disambiguation)|black hole disambiguation page]], and found some character called [[Black Hole (Kinnikuman)|Black Hole]]. The point is it needs tons of work, and [[User:Moocowsrule|I]] and [[User:AnmaFinotera|AnmaFinotera]] can't do it alone... so we need help. [[User:Moocowsrule|<span style="color:red">わwa</span>]][[User talk:Moocowsrule|<span style="color:#0f0">らra</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Moocowsrule|<span style="color:blue">うu</span>]] <span style="color:orange">Smile!</span> 06:29, 20 November 2008 (UTC)moocowsrule

:So, in other words, you'd like some assistance there? ···[[User:Nihonjoe|<span style="color:green;">日本穣</span>]]<sup>[[Help:Japanese|?]] · <small>[[User talk:Nihonjoe|Talk to Nihonjoe]]</small></sup> 06:33, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

::Pretty much, all-mighty-answerer-to-all-questions-in-the-universe. :P [[User:Moocowsrule|<span style="color:red">わwa</span>]][[User talk:Moocowsrule|<span style="color:#0f0">らra</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Moocowsrule|<span style="color:blue">うu</span>]] <span style="color:orange">Smile!</span> 06:34, 20 November 2008 (UTC)moocowsrule

:::Oops, forgot to mention ''magical''-all-mighty-answerer-to-all-questions-in-the-universe :P [[User:Moocowsrule|<span style="color:red">わwa</span>]][[User talk:Moocowsrule|<span style="color:#0f0">らra</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Moocowsrule|<span style="color:blue">うu</span>]] <span style="color:orange">Smile!</span> 06:35, 20 November 2008 (UTC)moocowsrule

:Yeah, ''[[Kinnikuman]]'' is some pretty bad shape. The main article gave me shudders. Its a big, confusing mess of lists, plot, trivia, OR, and ten ELs (including possibly a copyvio link). But the article only has one reference. Almost no info on the manga specifically, and barely any real-world info at all. It could really use a lot of clean up. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 06:46, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
::And also the reference is in Japanese... [[User:Moocowsrule|<span style="color:red">わwa</span>]][[User talk:Moocowsrule|<span style="color:#0f0">らra</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Moocowsrule|<span style="color:blue">うu</span>]] <span style="color:orange">Smile!</span> 06:51, 20 November 2008 (UTC)moocowsrule
:::Nothing wrong with that? Its RS. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 07:04, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
::::Nothing wrong with it, but it'd help a lot more if there were external links in English too. I mean this is an English wikipedia... [[User:Moocowsrule|<span style="color:red">わwa</span>]][[User talk:Moocowsrule|<span style="color:#0f0">らra</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Moocowsrule|<span style="color:blue">うu</span>]] <span style="color:orange">Smile!</span> 01:40, 21 November 2008 (UTC)moocowsrule
:::::Meant reference, not external link. [[User:Moocowsrule|<span style="color:red">わwa</span>]][[User talk:Moocowsrule|<span style="color:#0f0">らra</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Moocowsrule|<span style="color:blue">うu</span>]] <span style="color:orange">Smile!</span> 01:40, 21 November 2008 (UTC)moocowsrule
::::::Yes, but its an article on a primarily Japanese topic, so having Japanese references is perfectly fine and to be expected. A mix of Japanese and English is ideal, but for some things, Japanese will be most likely. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 02:04, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
:::::::If we're going to make it up to date with MoS-JP then we should at least have ''1'' ref in English. There should be something on ANN. I'll check there, but unfortunately (and extremely embarrassing) I have '''huge''' troubles with References. I can never get the correct coding in and always mess it up. --[[User:Moocowsrule|<span style="color:red">わwa</span>]][[User talk:Moocowsrule|<span style="color:#0f0">らra</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Moocowsrule|<span style="color:blue">うu</span>]] <span style="color:orange">Smile!</span> 03:14, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
I found a page on ANN about the [http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/anime.php?id=1513 anime] and one about the [http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/manga.php?id=3216 manga]. I don't know which one the article Kinnikuman is on, but both could be external links and refs. ANN is a RS right? I always see it referenced and in external links... --[[User:Moocowsrule|<span style="color:red">わwa</span>]][[User talk:Moocowsrule|<span style="color:#0f0">らra</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Moocowsrule|<span style="color:blue">うu</span>]] <span style="color:orange">Smile!</span> 03:17, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
:The article should be on both, with manga primary as its the primary work. See the main project page at the bottom for ANN's status as an RS.-- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 03:38, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

== WSJ Infobox Image discussion ==

Following the model used for ''[[Shonen Jump (magazine)|Shonen Jump]]'' and ''[[Shojo Beat]]'', and our established consensus regarding infobox images for manga and anime series, the ''[[Weekly Shōnen Jump]]'' article's infobox uses an image of its first issue cover. Another editor is questioning the use of this image instead of a more modern one. I've argued for keeping the first issue cover, and noted that a newer cover might be appropriate with a more detailed history section discussion its later cover redesign, but the other editor still feels the infobox should have a more contemporary modern image. As a note, the article did once have a more modern cover, from 2004,[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Weekly_Sh%C5%8Dnen_Jump&oldid=249567316] but it was removed and the first cover moved up into the infobox per the reasons already stated. Additional views might be useful as we are sort of going in circles now with just two of us doing the discussion. [[Talk:Weekly Shōnen Jump#More recent cover?]] is where its at. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 07:46, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

:I dug through the archives of this page and of [[WT:MOS-AM]] but I can't find that consensus. It might be useful to point the editor (and us for that matter) to the previous discussion on why the first cover is preferred. -- [[User:Goodraise|Goodraise]] ([[User talk:Goodraise|talk]]) 08:52, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

::Doh, my brain no worked yesterday. Discussion linked, it was on the infobox talk page. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 14:13, 21 November 2008 (UTC)