View source for Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2024 August 25

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===[[Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2024 August 25|August 25]]===
<!-- Add new listings at the top of the list with the following formats for deletion and merging respectively:

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==== [[Template:Unpaid]] ====
<div class="boilerplate tfd vfd tfd-closed mw-archivedtalk" style="background-color: #e3f9df; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;">
:''The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more templates or modules. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>  Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]).''

The result of the discussion was '''delete'''<!-- Tfd top -->. [[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 16:32, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
* {{Tfd links|Unpaid}}
This template was created by a now-blocked editor and is only being used on their User page. It's a nice sentiment but I don't see it being widely adopted. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">[[User:Liz|'''''L'''''iz]]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">[[Special:Contributions/Liz|'''''Read!''''']] [[User talk:Liz|'''''Talk!''''']]</sup> 21:55, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
* This looks like a [[Wikipedia:Userboxes|userbox]] that should be [[WP:TFD#NOT|discussed through a different process]], no? --[[User:Bsherr|Bsherr]] ([[User talk:Bsherr|talk]]) 14:46, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
*:No, a user box uses {{tl|user box}} or even attempts to look remotely similar. This one does not do either. [[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 22:50, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' per nom. This does not seem necessary or heavily sought after. [[User:Trailblazer101|Trailblazer101]] ([[User talk:Trailblazer101|talk]]) 05:03, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
* '''Userfy'''. Given that it is only used on this user's page, move it to a subpage of the user's page. --[[User:Bsherr|Bsherr]] ([[User talk:Bsherr|talk]]) 15:15, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
:''The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template or module's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>

==== [[Template:Heydar Latifiyan sidebar]] ====
<div class="boilerplate tfd vfd tfd-closed mw-archivedtalk" style="background-color: #e3f9df; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;">
:''The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more templates or modules. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>  Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]).''

The result of the discussion was '''delete'''<!-- Tfd top -->. [[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 16:24, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
* {{Tfd links|Heydar Latifiyan sidebar}}
Fails the major criteria of [[WP:NAVBOX]]; there is no main article about the subject (it was deleted at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Heydar Latifiyan]] last year) and most of the articles linked only mention his name in passing ([[Middle Eastern theatre of World War I#Battle of Robat Karim]] includes some detail but no sources). [[User:Belbury|Belbury]] ([[User talk:Belbury|talk]]) 16:49, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

:'''Delete''' Sounds justified for the reasons stated. Cheers! [[User:Johnson524|'''<span style="color:orange;">Johnson</span>''']][[User talk:Johnson524|'''<span style="color:blue;">524</span>''']] 18:02, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
:''The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template or module's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>

==== [[Template:Annual readership]] ====
<div class="boilerplate tfd vfd tfd-closed mw-archivedtalk" style="background-color: #e3f9df; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;">
:''The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more templates or modules. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>  Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]).''

The result of the discussion was '''keep but noinclude'''<!-- Tfd top -->. There is a reasonable consensus to keep this template, but within that there is a majority feeling that noincluding the template until a solution can be found is the best idea. A couple of dates have been thrown around regarding when this hypothetical solution can be found, but knowing software development schedules it is always easier to double or triple those expected timeframes. I see [[WP:NPASR|NPASR]] in six months or so if a solution/workaround/new implementation has not been found. [[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 14:57, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
* {{Tfd links|Annual readership}}
It has been 18 months since graphs have been made unavailable, with no solution in sight. At present, this template is merely talk page clutter that provides little benefit to readers or editors. 

An important thing to remember: talk pages receive a fraction of views as the article page. Take [[Abraham Lincoln]], who has ~400k views the past 30 days. His talk page has ~500 views. That is just 0.125% Based on our general knowledge of Wikipedia, it is safe to assume that most, if not all of those are editors, who likely have a grasp of the other tools that can be utilized to easily link to pageviews.wmcloud.org on every page on Wikipedia.

If consensus does not form to delete, I ask anyone participating in the discussion to comment on whether they support wrapping the template in {{code|noinclude}} tags indefinitely until a solution is found. This would be a compromise that would hide the template from talk pages until a solution is developed.<span style="white-space:nowrap; font-family:Harlow Solid Italic;"><span style="font-size:small; color:teal;"> « Gonzo fan2007</span> [[User talk:Gonzo_fan2007|<small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)</small>]] @ </span> 16:34, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

* Can this template be made to just not render at all, pending someone figuring out how to fix it? I feel like deleting it, creating a big red "this template does not exist" eyesore, and then having bots rush around trying to hastily remove it everywhere would be more disruptive than just making the template invisible. –[[user:jacobolus|jacobolus]] [[user_talk:jacobolus|(t)]] 17:51, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
**{{U|Jacobolus}}, I [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template%3AAnnual_readership&diff=1238196449&oldid=1161123937 tried that], but was reverted. Note the last part of my nom mentions a desire to at least hide the template from rendering in the event of a keep.<span style="white-space:nowrap; font-family:Harlow Solid Italic;"><span style="font-size:small; color:teal;"> « Gonzo fan2007</span> [[User talk:Gonzo_fan2007|<small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)</small>]] @ </span> 20:29, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
**:It's not clear what benefit [[user:Mathglot|Mathglot]] thinks we get from showing everyone a permanently broken template all over the place. Is the goal just to tease talk page viewers? –[[user:jacobolus|jacobolus]] [[user_talk:jacobolus|(t)]] 20:34, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
**'''Support''' this solution. [[User:Voorts|voorts]] ([[User talk:Voorts|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Voorts|contributions]]) 20:50, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
* '''Keep'''. There is clear benefit to this template, in that it provides a working link to the page views graph without even having to expand the template. There is no other solution available right now that I am aware of that gives one-click access to a page views graph from an article Talk page, other than this template, and imho it would be a very strong disservice to the community to delete it. I am guessing that either no one is aware of the working page views link that is there now, or that the objection is mostly due to the language inside the expanded message.  If the desire to delete the template based on the wording, "{{xt|A graph should have been displayed here, but ...}}" then I get that. I see no problem deleting or changing that verbiage to something else. (For a concrete example, please see the  [[#Discussion (annual readership)|Discussion]] below.) But deleting the template entirely based on poor wording, makes no sense to me at all without a much wider consensus from the community at large, for a working tool which has no easy replacement. [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 22:53, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
*:If this banner is never intended to be anything more than a link to pageviews.wmcloud.org, it should just be deleted. Such a link is already provided in the "External tools" section of the "Page information" for every article, and people didn't add this banner for the sake of such a link. If you think it is important to make such links easier to access, that should be done universally rather than on arbitrary particular articles; perhaps a direct link could be added directly to the "tools" sidebar/menu.
*:If this banner continues to display as it currently does, I will continue my current practice of deleting it from every talk page where I come across it organically. –[[user:jacobolus|jacobolus]] [[user_talk:jacobolus|(t)]] 23:07, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
:The Xtools gadget is readily available to editors, it way more powerful and useful. That was point, we are catering to such a small number of people with this template, people who are way more likely to be editors (not just readers) who have access to the pageviews Xtool. The wording isn't the problem. Its just a template with no use. I mean heck, just added a link in {{tl|talk header}} if that's all that people want. An extra template at this point serves no purpose without the graph.<span style="white-space:nowrap; font-family:Harlow Solid Italic;"><span style="font-size:small; color:teal;"> « Gonzo fan2007</span> [[User talk:Gonzo_fan2007|<small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)</small>]] @ </span> 23:04, 25 August 2024 (UTC) 
:: The template is not "extra", it is the way you get a page views graph. If there is consensus to include the link to the {{tl|Talk header}} (that would require consensus there as well), that would be better than nothing, as at least there would be a way for some users to use it there, but that would not include the people who now use it at [[Talk:Veganism]], for example, which has the graphs template but not the Talk header template, so even if you place a link in the {{tl|Talk header}} template, it won't do them any good. There are another [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?search=Talk%3A+hastemplate%3AAnnual_readership+-hastemplate%3ATalk_header&title=Special:Search&profile=default&fulltext=1 28,232 pages] articles that have the graph template but not the Talk header template on their Talk page. What happens with those? [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 00:53, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
::Personally, I feel {{t|Talk header}} is already packed with quite a few things, and page history doesn't really fit with the rest of its content (beginner oriented, while page history is probably used more by experienced users). If it is to be retained, it'd be preferable as a separate template. ― <kbd style="font-size:85%">[[User:Mir Novov|<b style="color:#270;rotate:-2deg;display:inline-block">novov</b>]] [[User talk:Mir Novov|<span style="color:#790">(t</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Mir Novov|<span style="color:#790">c)</span>]]</kbd> 09:28, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
* '''Delete'''. The user interface already includes menu links to page view statistics (as discussed below). A template with the sole purpose of linking to the same is redundant. If there is a solution in the future that allows the display of the actual statistics in the template, a new template can easily be created. --[[User:Bsherr|Bsherr]] ([[User talk:Bsherr|talk]]) 14:40, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' or '''noinclude''' per redundancy. Like others, I always use "Page information"'s wmcloud link.
:This is hogging space like uncollapsed WikiProject banners. It's hidable in {{t|talk header}} per Mathglot for a few editors needing it (who should just use [[m:MoreMenu]]). Yes, it failed if {{tpq|no one is aware of the working page views link}}. The community did fine without the graphs, and would've fixed the code already, had it valued this feature. [[Special:Contributions/142.113.140.146|142.113.140.146]] ([[User talk:142.113.140.146|talk]]) 00:07, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. Graphs have been gone for such a long time and by how fast Wikimedia works, they are probably never coming back. This is currently just a giant banner bloat. If the link is needed, then it should be added to the talk header template. [[User:Gonnym|Gonnym]] ([[User talk:Gonnym|talk]]) 07:30, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
*'''Keep but noinclude'''. This is clearly a useful template, especially in terms of election articles or other high traffic or current event articles, yet is currently useless. There is no need to fully delete it, only to then have to remake it when the new graph extension is complete (BTW, the template will have to be rewritten as its using a completely new graph system from the ground up) [[User:MarkiPoli|MarkiPoli]] ([[User talk:MarkiPoli|talk]]) 07:55, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
*'''Keep and noinclude''' per above.—[[User talk:Alalch E.|Alalch E.]] 10:48, 27 August 2024 (UTC) 
*'''Keep but noinclude''' No need to have a banner with no use cluttering up talk pages. [[User:AirshipJungleman29|&#126;~ AirshipJungleman29]] ([[User talk:AirshipJungleman29|talk]]) 12:49, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
*'''Keep but noinclude''' as per above. [[User:Bluethricecreamman|Bluethricecreamman]] ([[User talk:Bluethricecreamman|talk]])
*'''Keep''', with no preference on noinclude, per above. <b><span style="color:#0080FB">Invading</span><span style="color:#0668E1">Invader</span></b> ([[User:InvadingInvader|userpage]], [[User talk:InvadingInvader|talk]]) 14:39, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' Whilst views of talk pages may be low compared to article pages, I suspect that use of the "Page information" tool is even lower. Therefore there will be more users getting to ''pageviews.wmcloud.org'' from this template on talk pages than through "Page information". If a solution is ever found to re-instate the graph facility then we will have to re-insert a new template in talk pages from scratch.--[[Special:Contributions/Obi2canibe|Obi2canibe]] ([[User talk:Obi2canibe|talk)]] 15:33, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
* '''Delete'''. This template in its prior form is not coming back: the new graph extension is not expected to support data the way this template did. There exists the multiple alternatives identified above (gadget and separate link per Bsherr). And so it is at this point simply talk page clutter. [[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 22:14, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. As far as I am aware, there has not been any announcement of WMF permanently giving up on fixing graphs; on the contrary, a [[mw:Extension:Chart/Project|replacement]] appears to ''(finally!)'' be in development and is apparently planned to be {{tq|ready to use by editors by the end of September 2024|q=1}}.<ref>[[mw:Extension:Chart/Project#FAQ]]</ref> As (kind of) mentioned by {{u|Jacobolus}} above, removing the template from all pages via a bot would, once graphs are usable again, likely result in a request to add it back, ending up with [https://templatecount.toolforge.org/index.php?lang=en&namespace=10&name=Annual_readership more than 107 000] pointless edits for zero actual change in the end. 
:While the "noinclude" option ''is'' preferable to deleting it outright, the template being visible helps users discover the workaround of going to the external pageviews site (and probably it even being possible to view the pageviews in the first place) a lot better than expecting them to randomly open the "Page information" link, scroll past a bunch of technical data and notice the "Page view statistics" link near the bottom. [[Special:Contributions/2A00:807:B1:1166:BD0D:66A2:45C1:FC4E|2A00:807:B1:1166:BD0D:66A2:45C1:FC4E]] ([[User talk:2A00:807:B1:1166:BD0D:66A2:45C1:FC4E|talk]]) 22:37, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
{{reflist-talk}}
*'''Keep but noinclude''' per all above. [[User:The Kip|<span style="color:#333f42;">'''The'''</span>]] [[User talk:The Kip|<span style="color:#b4975a;">'''Kip'''</span>]] <span style="color:#C8102E;"><small><sup>([[Special:Contributions/The Kip|contribs]])</sup></small></span> 09:08, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' - Like Izno correctly states, WMF’s new graph solution is predicated on hosting data files in Commons, so it won’t work with this. And even if they add a way to use page statistics instead, this graph does not belong on talk pages IMO. Talk pages, as the name suggests, are for talking. The addition of stuff like this is highly unintuitive for new users and makes the discussion harder to get to for experienced ones.
:And anecdotally, when I was a new user, I found the statistics on the link in Page information, not the talk page header. Note that as well as the link at the bottom, there’s also a link in the “Basic information” section at the top, so the user doesn’t have to scroll very far. Not the most intuitive, but the solution is giving (this very handy, in fact) page a UI spruce-up, not keeping more visual noise on the Talk page. ― <kbd style="font-size:85%">[[User:Mir Novov|<b style="color:#270;rotate:-2deg;display:inline-block">novov</b>]] [[User talk:Mir Novov|<span style="color:#790">(t</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Mir Novov|<span style="color:#790">c)</span>]]</kbd> 13:29, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. Page views are not very useful to have for a talk page imo, and adds another banner to what can be a very long list of reading material. There are alternatives to navigate to the pageviews tool: there is a link on the edit history page; there is a link on the page's Page information, below the image; and what I recommend: [[m:More Menu]]'s <code>Page > Analysis > Traffic report</code>. I just don't think it's necessary as a banner. Izno says that the new graph tool won't work the same way, meaning that, to have accessible graphs on any given page, Commons will have to mirror this data for every single page. [[User:SWinxy|SWinxy]] ([[User talk:SWinxy|talk]]) 22:08, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
*'''Keep but noinclude''' per above. --<span style="font-family:Times New Roman;font-size:100%;color:#00008B;background-color:transparent;;CSS">[[User:Zzzs|<sub>Z</sub>Z<sup>Z</sup>]][[User talk:Zzzs|'S]]</span> 00:36, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
*'''Delete or noinclude''' per 142.113.140.146. Useless clutter. <span style=white-space:nowrap;>[[User:CFA|<span style="background-color:#e0f7fa;padding:2px 5px;border-radius:5px;font-family:Arial black"><span style=color:#00c>C</span> <span style=color:red>F</span> <span style=color:#5ac18e>A</span></span>]] <span style="background-color:#e6e6fa;padding:2px 5px;border-radius:5px;font-family:Arial black">[[User talk:CFA|💬]]</span></span> 14:09, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
*'''Keep but noinclude''' per above. [[User:AKK-700|<span style="background:green; color:white; padding:2px; border:1px solid green;">'''AKK'''</span>]][[User talk:AKK-700|<span style="background:blue; color:white; padding:2px; border:1px solid blue;">'''700'''</span>]] 01:49, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' as useless clutter. If a given talk page has consistently high traffic, a banner to that effect like "Caution: this article is one of Wikipedia's most-visited" would be not only clearer but easier to interpret at a glance. Even if the template worked, a graph of pageviews lacks that important context and just serves as clutter. <span style="text-shadow: 2px 2px 8px lightskyblue, -2px -2px 8px HotPink;font-weight:bold;">[[User:Dan_Leonard|Dan]] • [[User_talk:Dan_Leonard|✉]]</span> 21:09, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
*: That depends on whether you want someone else telling you what they consider high traffic, or you'd rather see for yourself. Plus, the minute they add a banner like that, it's outdated, because the numbers may change. Also, it isn't just about high traffic. Low traffic can be a signal that the article may need to be better integrated into the encyclopedia. Spikes in traffic tell a different story, and may be one of the first signals that a discussion or Rfc is generating interest from social media, and alerts users to watch out for possible canvassing. Not something that should be suppressed or hidden by a static banner. And if the spike happens reliably year after year around the same date, it might be a national holiday or commemoration somewhere, and if that isn't covered in the article, that's a possible indicator of insufficient global coverage. So regardless if numbers are high, low, or variable, there are all sorts of benefits to it. [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 19:49, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
*'''Keep until there is a link on the article page to "Page views" seen by IP users in the tools menu.''' <s>Right now only logged-in users see that link in the tools menu on article pages.</s> (''Oops. It's just me. It's from here: [[User:Timeshifter/common.js]]''). I am NOT talking about the "Page information" link. It is ridiculous for IP users to only be able to see the page views link at the bottom of the "Page information" page. --[[User:Timeshifter|'''Timeshifter''']] ([[User talk:Timeshifter|talk]]) 13:29, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
*:A link also exists at the top of said page. ― <kbd style="font-size:85%">[[User:Mir Novov|<b style="color:#270;rotate:-2deg;display:inline-block">novov</b>]] [[User talk:Mir Novov|<span style="color:#790">(t</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Mir Novov|<span style="color:#790">c)</span>]]</kbd> 09:16, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
*::Thanks, but that "Page views" link is still buried, since it is at the bottom of the "Basic information" box at the top of the "Page information" page. --[[User:Timeshifter|'''Timeshifter''']] ([[User talk:Timeshifter|talk]]) 00:48, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' the "Daily pageviews" link/byline/icon; '''temporarily deprecate''' the rest until--and only until--the new "Chart" extension is introduced. --[[User:Slgrandson|Slgrandson]] <small>([[User talk:Slgrandson|How's my]] [[Special:Contributions/Slgrandson|egg-throwing coleslaw?]])</small> 14:37, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
*'''Keep''': The template provides options to link to a graph of a different page than the title of the article. This is important if a page title has been recently changed and a graph of the page views of the historic title is more applicable. Also, readers have to know where to find the link to the page-view tool on the '''article''' history page. The page views available on the talk page history are the page views for the talk page, not the article. Having this template also provides a convenient way to alert readers who are not familiar with Wikipedia's full range of tools to the page view statistics. - [[User:Cameron Dewe|Cameron Dewe]] ([[User talk:Cameron Dewe|talk]]) 10:29, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
* '''Keep but noinclude''' per above. [[User:BilledMammal|BilledMammal]] ([[User talk:BilledMammal|talk]]) 19:42, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' in some form or fashion (probably via noinclude). It's not the template's fault the graph extension hasn't worked in so long. [[User:Steel1943|<span style="color: #3F00FF;">'''''Steel1943'''''</span>]] ([[User talk:Steel1943|talk]]) 23:39, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
* '''Deprecate and noinclude''', or else '''Delete''', unless the graphics are re-enabled. There's no point in having this template with just a link in it. - <span style="font-variant:small-caps;">[[User:Manifestation|Manifestation]] <small>([[User talk:Manifestation|talk]])</small></span> 11:57, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
* '''Delete'''. There are so many talkpage banners that even if this were working i'd be tempted to delete and maybe provide a link elsewhere, or at least make it smaller. It's not even working. That it's been broken for  18 months clearly reveals its value, [[User:Tpbradbury|Tom B]] ([[User talk:Tpbradbury|talk]]) 13:42, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
*'''Deprecate and noinclude''', already adding to talk page clutter before, and pure clutter now that graphs don't work. [[User:Chaotic Enby|<span style="color:#8a7500">Chaotic <span style="color:#9e5cb1">Enby</span></span>]] ([[User talk:Chaotic Enby|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Chaotic Enby|contribs]]) 18:01, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
*'''Keep but noinclude''', it maybe useful for user page. [[user:Veracious|Veracious]] [[user talk:Veracious|^(•‿•)^]] 02:43, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
* '''Delete''' This template only barely made sense in the first place - what pages included it or not was arbitrary and the same information can be gotten via the "page information" link and the external tool it points to. Now that it has been broken for years it's even more useless. [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|<sub style="color:#800000">it has begun...</sub>]] 22:02, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
*:This is actually a good point. The template [https://templatecount.toolforge.org/index.php?lang=en&namespace=10&name=Annual_readership#bottom is currently used] on 53,510 talk pages. But according to [[:mw:Manual:Article count|the {&#123;NUMBEROFARTICLES&#125;} magic word]], there are currently 6,879,730 articles. - <span style="font-variant:small-caps;">[[User:Manifestation|Manifestation]] <small>([[User talk:Manifestation|talk]])</small></span> 13:11, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' – let's not delete the template ''just'' because of some software bug that will be fixed eventually. The bug isn't even in this template (it's a software component that this template depends on). Plus, this banner isn't entirely useless! There's a convenient little link in there that points you to the page views counter on Wikimedia Toolforge! —&nbsp;[[User:AP 499D25|<span style="background:#1F6295;color:white;padding:1q 5q;border-radius:10q;font-family:Franklin Gothic, Verdana">AP&nbsp;499D25</span>]] [[User talk:AP 499D25|<span style="color:#1A527D">(talk)</span>]] 02:52, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
*'''Keep''', agree with the above !voters that this should be kept pending a resolution. Would support making it blank until the issue is resolved, but there's little reason to remove the template today and then have a resolution next month and have to re-add the template when it gets fixed. —[[User:Locke Cole|Locke Cole]] • [[User talk:Locke Cole|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Locke Cole|c]] 15:47, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' I admittedly never fully understood the purpose of this template even when it did work. If the concern is making the pageviews tool more visible, there are better ways to do that that don't clutter up the talk page, which isn't where users expect to go to see article views (and only when someone else has already decided to include this template.) '''[[User:EoRdE6|EoRdE6]]'''<sup><small>([[User talk:EoRdE6|Talk]])</small></sup> 01:31, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
'''Strong delete''' – this is not what talk pages are for. A more detailed and much better tool is easily available to editors on the history page; this tool is merely clutter that one does not need to see to help an improve an article (the use of a talk page). It has a weak scope and was frequently broken/glitched years before graphs went down. – '''<span style="font-family:Lucida;">[[User:Aza24|<span style="color:darkred">Aza24</span>]][[User talk:Aza24|<span style="color:#848484"> (talk)</span>]]</span>''' 04:09, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

===== Discussion (annual readership) =====
Here is a sandboxed example using modified language in the expanded template message. The example is for the article [[World War I]]:
{{annual readership/sandbox|title=World War I|target=World War I}}
Obviously, we can choose any alternative wording that makes sense. Thanks, [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 22:53, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
:This misses the point. The wording isn't the issue, its the lack of the graph, which is the entire purpose of the template.<span style="white-space:nowrap; font-family:Harlow Solid Italic;"><span style="font-size:small; color:teal;"> « Gonzo fan2007</span> [[User talk:Gonzo_fan2007|<small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)</small>]] @ </span> 23:05, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
:: Did you click the link? The graph works. [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 23:47, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
:::This template used to produce a graph within the template box. Past arguments focused on the fact that this was quicker, more accessible and simpler than other tools. Without the actual graph, this template is a massive, glorified link that is more easily accessed through other means.<span style="white-space:nowrap; font-family:Harlow Solid Italic;"><span style="font-size:small; color:teal;"> « Gonzo fan2007</span> [[User talk:Gonzo_fan2007|<small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)</small>]] @ </span> 23:54, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
:::: What is the more easily accessed method? Easier than one click off the Talk page? If you scroll up a bit to the brown box and click 'Daily pageviews', you get a graph. If you've got something easier, please tell me. [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 01:00, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
::::: From "Tools", "Page information", then "Page view statistics". Same two clicks, no? --[[User:Bsherr|Bsherr]] ([[User talk:Bsherr|talk]]) 14:37, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
:::::: No. If you scroll up to a bit and click 'Daily pageviews', it is easy to find, and the result is an immediate page view graph that is one click away, after a very short (1-second?) search. Following your instructions makes you search three times: first for "Tools", then for "Page information" (I wouldn't have realized to search for "Page information" in order to get Daily pageviews, I only knew because you told me), and then assuming you do click that, there is quite a bit of searching to find page views on that page, near the bottom, as it turns out. (That's two clicks, three searches.) How long will that typically take a user, assuming they even try? Do you truly think the template and your method are equivalent? I find the latter method far more difficult, and takes far longer, assuming I keep searching long enough to find the right link. Other users who don't have the benefit of your prior advice, won't know that the link even exists, so how long do they keep searching for something that might not exist, before they give up? It will certainly be harder for them, and I suspect most will just give up, and do without. That would be unhelpful to readers and editors, imho, and therefore I think the template still provides a valuable service. [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 06:56, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
::::::: You're defining a "search" as the act of looking for the menu choice to select? So, to publish this reply to you, I did two searches and two clicks, right? That doesn't seem especially burdensome. And for unfamiliar users, there is a helpful page describing just those instructions: [[Wikipedia:Pageview statistics]]. --[[User:Bsherr|Bsherr]] ([[User talk:Bsherr|talk]]) 15:22, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
::Here is another alternative:
{{Annual readership/sandbox|title=World War I|target=World War I|alternative=1}}
::The hidden content wording isn't the issue, but can the ''header'' wording compensate to make people click? [[Special:Contributions/142.113.140.146|142.113.140.146]] ([[User talk:142.113.140.146|talk]]) 01:42, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
::: That's a good point, but if we are going that route, I'm not sure I would link 'on Toolforge', partly because it fails to separate the 'what' and the 'where' sufficiently, it seems like it should be one or the other, or if both, set the article title apart somehow. [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 16:33, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

=====Stopgap replacement=====
If consensus is to delete, I would request that the closer request that if a bot removes all transcliusions of it, that a record be kept of the list of pages where it was removed. I am planning a stopgap replacement which I hope to introduce at VPT in a week or two, and the easiest would be to just redirect current transclusions to the new proposal (if it works). But if they are all removed, it would require a second bot to restore them, and we would need the list, in order to do that. [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 09:54, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

:Ok, that sounds interesting. What kind of stopgap measure do you have in mind? Cheers, <span style="font-variant:small-caps;">[[User:Manifestation|Manifestation]] <small>([[User talk:Manifestation|talk]])</small></span> 12:04, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
:: I'm thinking of a template to pull data from a Talk subpage containing pageviews data, and generate a graph from that as proof of concept. There would be some limitations, such as 3- or 6-month max (instead of unlimited), bar graphs only (no line graphs), and the bars might be horizontal instead of vertical, but if the concept works as I expect, then it could be rewritten in Lua which would be faster and less limited. [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 11:07, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
:If there is a method to delete it and then restore it on the same pages when a new template is created with the new graphs extension, I would support that. ~ [[User:Freedom4U|F4U]] ([[User talk:Freedom4U|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Freedom4U|they/it]]) 15:04, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
::{{re|Mathglot}} So are you proposing a bot that posts daily page views data on Talk sub-subpages? Like this:
<syntaxhighlight lang="lua">-- Talk:Example article/pageviews/2024

--[[
Page views for "Example article"
--]]

local page_views = {
 ["2024-01-01"] = 500,
 ["2024-01-02"] = 750,
 ["2024-01-03"] = 1000,
 ["2024-01-04"] = 500
}
</syntaxhighlight>
::Cheers, <span style="font-variant:small-caps;">[[User:Manifestation|Manifestation]] <small>([[User talk:Manifestation|talk]])</small></span> 18:06, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
::: I would like to respond, but I feel a bit sensitive about hijacking an Afd thread where this may be somewhat o/t. So I'll do just this one reply and collapse it, and if you or anyone would like to continue this, let's find another venue for it.
{{cot|bg=cornsilk|indent=4.8em|Reply to page views data question}}
As far as your data structure suggestion it could be something like that. I've been thinking of various data structures, and they might be different for the mockup and the module, at least the envelope for it. Some structures I've been thinking of are month based. One, following your general design for example, might be 
: ["2024-01"] = 500, 750, 1000,500, -, 650, ..., 850, 900, ... &nbsp; &nbsp; ''(up to 31 data points)''
but in the end, if/when it is designed as a bot it would be up to the bot writer as far as what the best structure would be (although I would like to be part of that discussion). 

However, for the mockup, rather than building my own parsing to analyze a lua structure (which I could do) I plan to reuse off-the-shelf stuff as much as possible, since the mockup would be a throwaway, so I thought that an easy data structure for a mockup could be simply a template written as a big #switch: whose parameters I could grab, either by month, or whatever way. Following the previous example, one would grab January like this: 
: {{tlc|pageviews get|year{{=}}2024|month{{=}}1}}

and the page data structure would either have a csv structure similar to the one above, and grab the items with {{tl|Array}}. Another way, is that the data page itself would be coded as template calls (to a template that needn't even exist)  and we could grab the values of them using {{tl|template parameter value}}:
{{cot|indent=1.6em|bg=darkseagreen|Example of using Tmpv to grab page data}}
{{hatnote|See [[User:Mathglot/sandbox#Tmpv test]]}}
* {{tlg|Tmpv|User:Mathglot/sandbox|void|1|month|code=y|_show_result=y}}
* {{tlg|Tmpv|User:Mathglot/sandbox|void|1|data|code=y|_show_result=y}}
* {{tlg|Tmpv|User:Mathglot/sandbox|void|2|data|code=y|_show_result=y}}
* {{tlg|Tmpv|User:Mathglot/sandbox|void|3|data|code=y|_show_result=y}}
* {{tlg|Tmpv|User:Mathglot/sandbox|void|3|month|code=y|_show_result=y}}


{{hatnote|The "template" here is just an easily accessible data repository; it need not exist (i.e., [[Template:Nonesuch]] does not):}}
* {{tlg|Tmpv|User:Mathglot/sandbox|nonesuch|1|a|code=y|_show_result=y}}
* {{tlg|Tmpv|User:Mathglot/sandbox|nonesuch|1|c|code=y|_show_result=y}}
* {{tlg|Tmpv|User:Mathglot/sandbox|nonesuch|2|a|code=y|_show_result=y}}
* {{tlg|Tmpv|User:Mathglot/sandbox|nonesuch|2|c|code=y|_show_result=y}}
{{cob}}
At the outset, the bot would emit the data in mockup style, but have hooks to switch easily to Lua style. (Or possibly it could emit both styles on the page from the start: the mockup would see only what it needs, and likewise for the module, making the transition seamless.) 

As far as bot frequency, whether it is daily, weekly, or something else will depend, I imagine, on performance considerations, how expensive it is, and how many pages need it. Currently there are [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?search=Talk%3A+hastemplate%3Aannual_readership&title=Special:Search&profile=default&fulltext=1 52,886 transclusions] of {{tl|annual readership}}. If we did them weekly, we could run 7555 per day. I'm thinking that once we have a mockup and a bot, if all looks good, we just redirect {{tl|annual readership}} to the mockup, and then at some point, a Module would replace the mockup, and then down the road at some point, hopefully, [[Module:Graph:Chart]] will be back.

Oh, and I forgot to mention I've been playing around with generating bar graphs via a for loop. this is for a completely different kind of context, but will give a general idea what I mean: see the penultimate example at [[Template:Article length bar#Examples]].
{{cob}}
::: If you wish to continue, please suggest a venue; not the template talk page, because that might get deleted. Thanks, [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 21:13, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
::::I guess [[Wikipedia:Bot requests]] would be a good venue, because having a bot that makes thousands of edits per day obviously requires permission from the higher-ups. - <span style="font-variant:small-caps;">[[User:Manifestation|Manifestation]] <small>([[User talk:Manifestation|talk]])</small></span> 17:26, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
::::: A bot request would be premature; perhaps [[WP:VPI]]. [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 09:18, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

===== Extra link in the tools menu? =====
{{multiple image
 | align = right
 | total_width = 360

 | image1 = Page tools.png
 | caption1 = The Tools menu.

 | image2 = Page tools w views link.png
 | caption2 = Same menu, but with an extra "Page views" link.
}}
As a replacement of sorts, could we add a "Page views" link to the "Tools" dropdown menu? See the pictures on the right.

Currently, the link to {{Plain link|https://pageviews.wmcloud.org|pageviews.wmcloud.org}} is tucked away at the bottom of the "Information for ..." pages, e.g. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Laysan_honeycreeper&action=info#External_tools here]. If it wasn't for {{tl|Annual readership}}, many users would probably not be aware of the existence of the pageviews tool in the first place. Having a direct link featured prominently in "Tools" would make it less difficult to find and access, should the Annual readership template be removed.

Cheers, <span style="font-variant:small-caps;">[[User:Manifestation|Manifestation]] <small>([[User talk:Manifestation|talk]])</small></span> 12:17, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
:I think this is the '''best solution,''' and it needs to be in the '''tools menu''' for '''both logged-in and IP users.''' If it were in the tools menu it '''wouldn't need to be on the talk page at all.''' 
:Few editors, and fewer average readers, are aware that the page views link is on the "page information" page. --[[User:Timeshifter|'''Timeshifter''']] ([[User talk:Timeshifter|talk]]) 16:45, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
::I agree. And as you [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2024_August_25&diff=prev&oldid=1244362565 pointed out], there is [[User:PrimeHunter/Pageviews.js]], which adds the button. But it would be cool if this was standard for all users, logged-in or logged-out. Cheers, <span style="font-variant:small-caps;">[[User:Manifestation|Manifestation]] <small>([[User talk:Manifestation|talk]])</small></span> 17:31, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
:: Yeah, like I wasn't aware of it (but now that I am, it is still hard to find). This should be standard if the template is removed, which I hope it isn't, for reasons given. [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 19:19, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
*'''Strong support''' to this suggestion. I personally use the legacy version of the skin, but this proposal is a great replacement to the aging page_views template. <span style="font-family:Footlight MT">[[User:JWilz12345|JWilz12345]] <span style="background:#68FCF1">(''[[User talk:JWilz12345|Talk]]''|''[[Special:Contributions/JWilz12345|Contrib's.]]'')</span></span> 06:13, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
* I have posted about this at [[Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)]], see [[Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Page views link in the Tools menu|here]]. - <span style="font-variant:small-caps;">[[User:Manifestation|Manifestation]] <small>([[User talk:Manifestation|talk]])</small></span> 18:34, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

===== Put page views link in talk header template =====

If we can't get it in the tools menu now, then let's start by putting the link in the '''{{t|talk header}}''' template. Note that there is '''room on the left side''' for a page views link. We could remove {{t|annual readership}} from all talk pages, and use this instead. This way the number of links to page views on talk pages goes from around '''53,000''' to '''726,000 talk pages.'''

'''{{t|talk header}}''' is on '''[https://linkcount.toolforge.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&page=Template%3ATalk+header#transclusions around 726,000 article talk pages]''' out of '''{{NUMBEROF|ARTICLES|en|N}} articles.''' <nowiki>{{NUMBEROF|ARTICLES|en|N}}</nowiki>. That is around '''11% of articles.'''

{{talk header|archives=no}}
--[[User:Timeshifter|'''Timeshifter''']] ([[User talk:Timeshifter|talk]]) 11:54, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
:''The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template or module's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>

==== Washington Metro station platform templates ====
<div class="boilerplate tfd vfd tfd-closed mw-archivedtalk" style="background-color: #e3f9df; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;">
:''The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more templates or modules. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>  Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]).''

The result of the discussion was '''delete'''<!-- Tfd top -->. [[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 16:25, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
* {{Tfd links|WMATA BS east platform layout/next}}
* {{Tfd links|WMATA BS east platform layout/previous}}
* {{Tfd links|WMATA Green platform layout/island}}
* {{Tfd links|WMATA Green platform layout/next}}
* {{Tfd links|WMATA Green platform layout/previous}}
* {{Tfd links|WMATA OBS platform layout/island}}
* {{Tfd links|WMATA OBS platform layout/side}}
* {{Tfd links|WMATA OBS platform layout/surface}}
* {{Tfd links|WMATA Orange platform layout/next}}
* {{Tfd links|WMATA Orange platform layout/previous}}
* {{Tfd links|WMATA Platform Layout L'Enfant Plaza}}
* {{Tfd links|WMATA Red platform layout/island}}
* {{Tfd links|WMATA Red platform layout/next}}
* {{Tfd links|WMATA Red platform layout/previous}}
* {{Tfd links|WMATA Silver west platform layout}}
* {{Tfd links|WMATA Silver west platform layout/next}}
* {{Tfd links|WMATA Silver west platform layout/previous}}
*{{Tfd links|Washington Metro station platform templates|catfd=yes}}

Previous consensus to deprecate these tabular diagrams: [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Trains/Archive: 2020#Closure of 2019 station layout RFC]]. [[User:Mackensen|Mackensen]] [[User_talk:Mackensen|(talk)]] 13:01, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

*'''Delete all''': Consensus is clear to depreciate these old platform layouts. [[User:Pi.1415926535|Pi.1415926535]] ([[User talk:Pi.1415926535|talk]]) 01:08, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
*'''Delete all''' per nom and repeated previous consensuses regarding similar templates. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 21:05, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
:''The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template or module's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>

==== [[Template:2024–25 UEFA Champions League league phase]] ====
<div class="boilerplate tfd vfd tfd-closed mw-archivedtalk" style="background-color: #e3f9df; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;">
:''The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more templates or modules. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>  Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]).''

The result of the discussion was '''delete'''<!-- Tfd top -->. [[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 16:26, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
* {{Tfd links|2024–25 UEFA Champions League league phase}}
Template is unneeded as the code removed in [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2024%E2%80%9325_UEFA_Champions_League_league_phase&curid=76845835&diff=1242180764&oldid=1242180392 this edit] did the same job. Several previous discussions have resulted in consensus against having separate single-table sports templates and have favoured transclusion instead. Originally discussed [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 122#An issue with templates and a suggestion|here]] and further information available [[Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2020 August 22#Template:2020–21 Premier League table|here]]. No indication this consensus has changed and no reason this competition should be treated differently. [[User:Stevie fae Scotland|Stevie fae Scotland]] ([[User talk:Stevie fae Scotland|talk]]) 12:55, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
*<small>Note: This discussion has been included in [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Football#Nominations for deletion and page moves|WikiProject Football]]'s list of association football-related deletions. [[User:S.A. Julio|S.A. Julio]] ([[User talk:S.A. Julio#top|talk]]) 17:12, 27 August 2024 (UTC)</small>
*'''Substitute and delete''' per discussions on the use of singular tables. However, I imagine having this table in the same article with all the match results will cause a number of edit conflicts (which is why the template namespace is useful). But this seems to be the consensus. [[User:S.A. Julio|S.A. Julio]] ([[User talk:S.A. Julio#top|talk]]) 17:16, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
*'''Subst and delete''' as above. [[User:GiantSnowman|Giant]][[User talk:GiantSnowman|Snowman]] 18:08, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
:''The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template or module's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>

==== [[Template:Buffy the Vampire Slayer]] ====
<div class="boilerplate tfd vfd tfd-closed mw-archivedtalk" style="background-color: #e3f9df; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;">
:''The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more templates or modules. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>  Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]).''

The result of the discussion was '''merge'''<!-- Tfd top --> to [[Template:Buffy the Vampire Slayer]]. [[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 16:26, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
* {{Tfd links|Buffy the Vampire Slayer|module= |type=merge}}
* {{Tfd links|Angel (1999 TV series)|module= |type=merge}}
'''Propose merging''' [[Template:Buffy the Vampire Slayer]] with [[Template:Angel (1999 TV series)]].<br />
The two television series are part of the same franchise. There is a major overlap between the two templates. See [[:Template:Buffy the Vampire Slayer/sandbox]] for how it would look like after a merge. [[User:Mika1h|Mika1h]] ([[User talk:Mika1h|talk]]) 08:24, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
* '''Oppose''', ''Buffy the Vampire Slayer'' is a standalone series and not only one of the premier television series of its era but of all-time. Wikipedia's ''Buffy'' collection does not include ''Angel'', a related cross-over spinoff. [[User:Randy Kryn|Randy Kryn]] ([[User talk:Randy Kryn|talk]]) 10:38, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
*: Umm, what? They are part of the same franchise, that's just a fact. See [[Buffyverse]].  --[[User:Mika1h|Mika1h]] ([[User talk:Mika1h|talk]]) 11:31, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
*:: Same character-related "franchise" but two different television series, with ''Angel'' being a spin-off. ''Buffy the Vampire Slayer'' is considered one of the greatest television series of all-time. [[User:Randy Kryn|Randy Kryn]] ([[User talk:Randy Kryn|talk]]) 11:44, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
*::: Yes, Angel is a spinoff of Buffy, I know that. What is your oppose rationale here, I still don't understand it. --[[User:Mika1h|Mika1h]] ([[User talk:Mika1h|talk]]) 11:52, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
*:::: That ''Buffy'', because of the series' prominence in television history, should continue to have its own standalone navbox. [[User:Randy Kryn|Randy Kryn]] ([[User talk:Randy Kryn|talk]]) 12:10, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
* '''Support'''. There is a very large overlap with linked articles, with mostly the first group ("series") section being the unique links. The way the current templates are constructed, there is no reason to keep them separated. [[User:Gonnym|Gonnym]] ([[User talk:Gonnym|talk]]) 12:11, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
* '''Merge'''. Randy Kryn's mention of the importance of Buffy being much greater than Angel credits the assertion that Angel really is a subordinate topic and that navigation between these topics would be aided by combining them. I think there is only one character included that is unique to Angel, yes? --[[User:Bsherr|Bsherr]] ([[User talk:Bsherr|talk]]) 17:20, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
* '''Support'''. They are part of the same franchise, and the mockup combines the two effectively. [[User:Flabshoe1|Flabshoe1]] ([[User talk:Flabshoe1|talk]]) 13:59, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
:''The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template or module's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>

==== [[Template:Dutch candidate lists for European Parliament elections]] ====
<div class="boilerplate tfd vfd tfd-closed mw-archivedtalk" style="background-color: #e3f9df; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;">
:''The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more templates or modules. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>  Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]).''

The result of the discussion was '''relisted'''<!-- Tfd top --> on [[Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2024 September 8#Template:Dutch candidate lists for European Parliament elections|2024 September 8]]. [[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 14:37, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
* {{tfd links|Dutch_candidate_lists_for_European_Parliament_elections}}
* {{tfd links|Candidate_lists_in_elections_in_the_Netherlands}}
:''The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template or module's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>

==== [[Template:Year by category]] ====
<div class="boilerplate tfd vfd tfd-closed mw-archivedtalk" style="background-color: #e3f9df; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;">
:''The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more templates or modules. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>  Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]).''

The result of the discussion was '''relisted'''<!-- Tfd top --> on [[Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2024 September 2#Template:Year by category|2024 September 2]]. [[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 16:33, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
* {{tfd links|Year_by_category}}
:''The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template or module's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>

==== [[Template:Editnotices/Page/Template:Contentious topics/talk notice]] ====
<div class="boilerplate tfd vfd tfd-closed mw-archivedtalk" style="background-color: #e3f9df; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;">
:''The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more templates or modules. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>  Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]).''

The result of the discussion was '''delete'''<!-- Tfd top -->. [[User:Explicit|<span style="color:#000000">✗</span>]][[User talk:Explicit|<span style="color:white;background:black;font-family:felix titling;font-size:80%">plicit</span>]] 11:33, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
* {{Tfd links|Editnotices/Page/Template:Contentious topics/talk notice}}
This individual page edit notice has the same content as group notice [[Template:Editnotices/Group/Template:Contentious topics]]. This causes duplicate banner to appear when {{edit|Template:Contentious topics/talk notice|editing Template:Contentious topics/talk notice}}. Note that [[Template:Editnotices/Page/Template:Contentious topics/alert]], as an example, has completely different content to the group notice ({{edit|Template:Contentious topics/alert|edit demo}}). —⁠[[User:Andrybak|andrybak]] ([[User talk:Andrybak|talk]]) 03:00, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
*Seems fine to '''delete''' or just blank. '''[[User:L235|KevinL]]''' (<small>aka</small> [[User:L235|L235]] '''·''' [[User talk:L235#top|t]] '''·''' [[Special:Contribs/L235|c]]) 13:40, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
*:Blanking will leave the link with the text "Page notice" linking to the blank page. These links are on the right, just above the top right corner of the banner on desktop. This might be confusing. —⁠[[User:Andrybak|andrybak]] ([[User talk:Andrybak|talk]]) 13:56, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' for the reasons stated. Cheers! [[User:Johnson524|'''<span style="color:orange;">Johnson</span>''']][[User talk:Johnson524|'''<span style="color:blue;">524</span>''']] 18:01, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

:'''Delete''' for the reasons stated. [[User:Dreamy Jazz|Dreamy <i style="color:#d00">'''Jazz'''</i>]] <sup>''[[User talk:Dreamy Jazz|talk to me]]'' &#124; ''[[Special:Contribs/Dreamy Jazz|my contributions]]''</sup> 19:04, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
:''The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template or module's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>

==== [[Template:Liberal Democrats London mayoral selection, 2015]] ====
<div class="boilerplate tfd vfd tfd-closed mw-archivedtalk" style="background-color: #e3f9df; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;">
:''The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more templates or modules. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>  Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]).''

The result of the discussion was '''relisted'''<!-- Tfd top --> on [[Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2024 September 1#Template:Liberal Democrats London mayoral selection, 2015|2024 September 1]]. [[User:Explicit|<span style="color:#000000">✗</span>]][[User talk:Explicit|<span style="color:white;background:black;font-family:felix titling;font-size:80%">plicit</span>]] 11:32, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
* {{tfd links|Liberal_Democrats_London_mayoral_selection,_2015}}
:''The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template or module's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>