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== Re: Hatnotes ==

If you're having troubles with a hatnote at the tope of the page, why don't you add it further down, in the See Also section, as with [[Exercise]]. This doesn't draw quite as much attention, but does help improve awareness of the outline system, and will probably be noticed by most editors interested in the topic. Also, since the link is less prominent, there should be fewer concerns over quality. I would also suggest adding a note on the Talk page - or perhaps a template to be placed with the Project boxes - to advertise the article's relevant outline and suggest editors contribute. For example:
:This article has been flagged by [[WP:WPOOK]] as a central topic, and as such has an outline which can be found at [[Outline of topic]]. Please help contribute to this outline in order to increase coverage of this topic.
Creating a template with this (or similar) text and a variable link would make it easy for Project members to tag articles, and since many highly important topics would be included, awareness should rapidly improve. Making a template shouldn't be hard if you study some existing project boxes first - in fact, I would be happy to make one for you if you want.

I hope these suggestions help! If you need any more suggestions, let me know at my Talk page. [[User:Strdst_grl|<span style="font-family:Bernhard Modern Roman;color:CornflowerBlue">strdst_grl</span>]] <small>[[User talk:Strdst_grl|<span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;color:LightSkyBlue">(call me Stardust)]]</span></small> 10:05, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

: I've been placing the "main" links to outlines in the see also sections of the corresponding articles, including the one at [[Exercise#See also]].  :)

: See the banner at the top of [[Talk:Exercise]].  We placed that banner at the top of all corresponding subject talk pages about 3 weeks ago.  It's a template, so any improvements to it will show up on all the pages it is displayed on.  

: Your suggestions are reassuring.  It's nice to see we're on the right track.  

: And yes, any other ideas you come up with, please keep firing 'em at me.  

: I'll have more questions for you soon.

: [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  21:40, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

== WPOOK ==

Hi there, I was just wondering what you meant by "advanced wiki-tools" on the project page? Thanks, [[User:MacMed|<b style="color:green;">MacMed</b>]][[User talk:MacMed|<sup style="color:red;">talk</sup>]][[Special:Contributions/MacMed|<sub style="color:black;">stalk</sub>]] 23:07, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

: [[WP:AWB]] (for automated batch work), [[WP:WikEd]] (a more powerful wiki-edit window), [[WP:LINKY]] (preloads pages into tabs for speeding up manual batch work), and [[Regex]] (programmable search/replace feature in AWB and [[m:User:Pathoschild/Scripts/Regex menu framework]] - the latter is an add-on to Wikipedia's standard edit window).  Template substitution tricks (e.g., using nested templates).  Google site-specific searches of Wikipedia.  And other tricks and techniques.  See also [[WP:OTS]].  And I encourage all our team members to get a [[WP:BOT]] account (2 have them so far).  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  21:27, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

:: I have AWB access, and I also use WikEd. How do I get a bot accoutn without actually having a written bot to propose though? Also, what can I get started on with the tools I do have? Thanks, [[User:MacMed|<b style="color:green;">MacMed</b>]][[User talk:MacMed|<sup style="color:red;">talk</sup>]][[Special:Contributions/MacMed|<sub style="color:black;">stalk</sub>]] 21:58, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

::: I'm not sure I understand your question.  AWB can be activated into a bot, so you don't have to write your own bot program.  To get an AWB bot account requires writing a proposal, but that's easy if you know someone who has been through the process.  The easiest way is to propose a bot for a standard task.  Both [[User talk:Juliancolton|Juliancolton]] and [[User talk:Thehelpfulone|Thehelpfulone]] will be glad to help.  In the meantime...

::: Ah, good, you use Firefox!  I need you to install the [[WP:LINKY]] add-on (very easy).  WikEd is twice as powerful when using Linky.

::: I also would like you to boost the power of the regular edit window.  Go to "my preferences", click on "Gadgets", and activate the regex menu.  You'll only see it when you have WikEd deactivated.

::: The next step is to enhance your account with some scripts.  Go to [[WP:OTS#Super fast upgrade]] and follow the insructions there.  It includes WikEd, so remove that part of the code from the copy/paste before you save.  The Watchlist sorter is the main one we're after here, as it makes your watchlist much easier to use, by displaying results by namespace.

::: Let me know how this goes.

::: I'll be sending you your first (WikEd/Linky) task soon.

::: [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  22:28, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

== Re: your message to me about list notability  (aka "list of things that are green" ) ==

Hi, sorry it's taken me so long to get back to you, I had to take a little break as I was spending too much time on Wikipedia. I've decided to stay out of the list issue for the moment, as there is obviously something I'm missing. Plus I've let my personal opinions on what should be allowed on Wikipedia cloud my judgment somewhat. 

As for [[Portal:Contents/Outline of knowledge]]... wow! Had no idea that existed. But it really sort of pulls everything together and makes it much easier to find something if someone doesn't know precisely what they are looking for (or just wants to browse a topic without having to track down the 100 articles related to it).  There should be a link to that on the main page. --[[User:Susan118|<b><font color="purple" face="Comic Sans MS">Susan118</font></b>]] [[User_Talk:Susan118|<font color="purple" face="Comic Sans MS"><sup><small>'''talk'''</small></sup></font>]] 16:36, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
: I agree.  But where on the main page would we put it? [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  21:14, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
::That handy "Welcome to Wikipedia" box on the top of the main page could be a good place.  Or, maybe even a link on the sidebar, for people like me who tend to forget the main page exists half the time--[[User:Susan118|<b><font color="purple" face="Comic Sans MS">Susan118</font></b>]] [[User_Talk:Susan118|<font color="purple" face="Comic Sans MS"><sup><small>'''talk'''</small></sup></font>]] 02:46, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the info on the outline project, sorry I didn't get to reply sooner, but my internet connection has been flaking out on me the last week or so. So I haven't gotten to look at everything, but I have to say I was fascinated that there is an [[Outline of chocolate]]. :) Actually that is a good example of why the outlines are useful. I might want to read about chocolate, but not realize there are actually 50 (OK, so I didn't actually count them) articles related to chocolate; for example I would never have thought to look up [[International Cocoa Initiative]] (not previously knowing it existed), but thanks to the outline I can see that and all the other articles related to chocolate. So yeah this is definitely something that would be useful to have on the main page.--[[User:Susan118|<b><font color="purple" face="Comic Sans MS">Susan118</font></b>]] [[User_Talk:Susan118|<font color="purple" face="Comic Sans MS"><sup><small>'''talk'''</small></sup></font>]] 01:49, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

==Hatnotes==

Personally i never use them but i would say basically look you are trying to make it better and they are trying to make it worse. go ahead and make them and make the article better if you think it is appropriate go do it you are bound to get people who then say oh that is not wp this or wp that my view is always does this make the article better? if it does, make it better. Wikipedia is not finished and wikipedia is not perfect. We need people to make it BETTER. and if you think that makes it better, then good for you make it better. the deletionists will say oh it is not quite right or something who gives a shit it is the readers who matter does this make it better for them?  [[User:SimonTrew|SimonTrew]] ([[User talk:SimonTrew|talk]]) 18:23, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

:BTW  I do not use any automated tools. I don't obkject to them and have thanked people who have cleaned up silly typos and that kind of stuff in my editing, just personally I edit more slowly and by hand and that kind of editing you cant give to AWB etc. As I say I dont object to them they are great for clearing up silly errors but they can't catch oh this is a pile of nonsense otheretc. [[User:SimonTrew|SimonTrew]] ([[User talk:SimonTrew|talk]]) 18:28, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

:Personalli i find the hardest thing is doing the references i did over a hundred on [[Electric Car]] it is sodding hard work to find the things. THe article may be easy to sort but so many people dont put references or they put them badly or whatever and wow that was hard. I got two compliments from that. Then you would think after having over a hundred references in the article other editors might follow the style (as [[WP:MOS]] recommends) nah they just chuck anything in.

:I am moving in a few days but have mobile broadband it is cool so I should be around but if I am not don't think I am ignoring you just you know moving and stuff takes a bit of time. [[User:SimonTrew|SimonTrew]] ([[User talk:SimonTrew|talk]]) 18:33, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

:: Thank you for the comments.  [[WP:LINKY]] speeds up manual editing by loading subwindows (tabs) with the pages you want to view or work on.  Then you switch between or blast through (work on then close) tabs.  I'll post you an example of the types of manual editing the outlines need, sometime after your move.  

:: And I agree that finding references is one of the hardest steps in developing articles.  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  21:12, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

I think that your statement, "since we need the best linking we can to attract readers and editors in the first place", indicates a fundamental problem. Looking at hatnotes as a way to attract readers and editors is contrary to how I see a hatnote working. A hatnote should grab someone's attention when they first hit an article to help them find exactly what they are looking for (diambiguation being the primary purpose). Hatnotes within sections (see also, main, etc.) help the reader find more information about the specific topic. The outlines don't do that. They help readers find more information about related topics. Therefore, a hatnote is not the ideal place to include the links. I think they should regularly appear in the "See also" section of the article. If there is enough acceptance, perhaps a template similar to the Wikimedia Commons or Portal tags would be acceptable. Otherwise, just a regular link in the See also section is enough. I think if we try too hard to push this thing down people's throats, it will hurt the project. People need to see it in a regular place. They will click through, find the outlines, and learn that they are useful. We don't need to bash them over the head with them and turn people off to them before they even click through. Just my thoughts. Remember that it should always be about what's best for visitors/readers, not what's best for WikiProject members. &mdash;[[User:Willscrlt|<span style="color:#03D">Will</span><span style="color:#B01">scrlt</span>]]&nbsp;<small>(&nbsp;[[User talk:Willscrlt|“Talk”]]&nbsp;)</small> 23:53, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

: It seems counter-intuitive to have the table of contents for the subject's coverage on Wikipedia at the end of the article named for the subject.  But placing it in the see also section appears to be the consensus for now, so that's what we're doing.  Thank you for the input.  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  20:57, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

== Hmm... ==

I see both sides of the argument. I think you should list (not hatnote) the outline on the disambiguation page. Then, add a link in the "see also" section of the article. What do you think? '''at'''[[User talk:astatine-210|-210]]  <small><sup>''[[Special:Contributions/Astatine-210|discovered elements]] ∞ [[astatine|what am I?]]''</sup></small> 20:17, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

: The consensus seems to be not to place a hatnote until the outline quality is high enough.  In the meantime, the see also section will do.  I hadn't thought of the disambiguation page though.  Good idea.  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  21:04, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

== I think... ==

...you need a barnstar for all of the hard work you have put into the [[WP:WPOOK]]!<br /><br />
{{Barnstar Barnstar|You deserve two! '''at'''[[User talk:astatine-210|-210]]  <small><sup>''[[Special:Contributions/Astatine-210|discovered elements]] ∞ [[astatine|what am I?]]''</sup></small> 20:21, 14 June 2009 (UTC)}}
: Thank you.  It's been awhile since I've gotten a barnstar.  Feels good.  :)  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  21:05, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

== banner ==

<center>[[File:Qxz-ad184.gif]]</center>

Main blurb replaced. --[[User:penubag|'''<span style="background:#00CCFF;color:#0066FF;font-size:84%">&nbsp;penubag&nbsp;</span>''']] ([[User talk:penubag|talk]]) 23:35, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
:Yes, you have to clear your cache. --[[User:penubag|'''<span style="background:#00CCFF;color:#0066FF;font-size:84%">&nbsp;penubag&nbsp;</span>''']] ([[User talk:penubag|talk]]) 23:44, 14 June 2009 (UTC)


:: I think it's done!  I'm about to be logged off today, but will post a note to the others the next time I log on.  Let's see what the gang thinks.  :)  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  23:50, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
:::Yay! thanks :) --[[User:penubag|'''<span style="background:#00CCFF;color:#0066FF;font-size:84%">&nbsp;penubag&nbsp;</span>''']] ([[User talk:penubag|talk]]) 23:54, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

== Outline of knowledge Outreach ==

I've spent some time on a mock-up version of our new user-friendly OOK page!! This page is intended for new users who will become recruited and need to know what's what. Our existing pages seemed too much to read to too hard to understand. This isn't intended to replace any of the other pages but I believe will be essential in welcoming and inviting new participants.  The lack of a central page really disorganized, confused, and deswayed users so this should help clarify. But it still needs a lot more work.  I don't like how I presented the links, because we have more of them, and we'll need to organize them. At least it's a starting ground.  [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Outline of knowledge/Outreach/draft]] --[[User:penubag|'''<span style="background:#00CCFF;color:#0066FF;font-size:84%">&nbsp;penubag&nbsp;</span>''']] ([[User talk:penubag|talk]]) 10:19, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

: I've merged (and redirected) your draft into the main WikiProject page. ([[WP:WPOOK]]).

: Feel free to organize it as you see fit (including moving stuff to subpages or whatever you have in mind).

: So far, so good!

: Thank you.

: Good luck.

: Have fun.

: [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  22:41, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

::Yeah, I'll need some time for this . But it'll be done soon (hopefully)--[[User:penubag|'''<span style="background:#00CCFF;color:#0066FF;font-size:84%">&nbsp;penubag&nbsp;</span>''']] ([[User talk:penubag|talk]]) 07:31, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

== Merge the History of California? ==
The [[History of California]] is a list.

Do you think it should be merged into [[Historical outline of California]]?

[[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  23:36, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

:No.  The History of California became so long that it was split into several articles and only links to those articles remain at History of California.  Hopefully, the article will be expanded to include a synopsis of the History of California (probably by someone like me.)  I recommend that we retain the article so that it can become that synopsis.  --[[User:Buaidh|Buaidh]] ([[User talk:Buaidh|talk]]) 13:56, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

:: Sounds good.  See [[WP:SS]].  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  21:07, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

==Project==
Good work my friend I don't think there is much wrong with it but it is helpful to post something on it a little gif or png doesnt matter what format so people can add it to their own user pages. Acually GIF is probably best avoided it is owned by um AOL I think (you know how these things change handsI think it is AOL at the moment) and they protect their rights to the format very vigorously. [[User:SimonTrew|SimonTrew]] ([[User talk:SimonTrew|talk]]) 23:44, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

== Try again ==

I hate edit conflicts on wp they are so hard to sort out. I was just trying to say you might want to think about making a badge you know that people can put on their own pages and usually you make a template to let them add that easily. Also I think GIF is still proprietary to AOL and you may wish to use a different format it is not free to use (stupid I know). [[User:SimonTrew|SimonTrew]] ([[User talk:SimonTrew|talk]]) 23:48, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
:GIF is not owned by AOL and never was, in fact, all patents have expired. Wikimedia only allows free file formats and GIF is the only file format on Wikipedia capable of animation (besides aPNG, but the majority of browsers cannot render that). If Wikimedia also alowed proprietary file formats, I'd go wild with SWF (flash). --[[User:penubag|'''<span style="background:#00CCFF;color:#0066FF;font-size:84%">&nbsp;penubag&nbsp;</span>''']] ([[User talk:penubag|talk]]) 06:29, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

== WP:WPOOK ==

Your [[User talk:MacMed/Archives23#First WP:WPOOK task - add main links to subject article see also sections|first task]] is {{done}}. What's next? :) [[User:MacMed|<b style="color:green;">MacMed</b>]][[User talk:MacMed|<sup style="color:red;">talk</sup>]][[Special:Contributions/MacMed|<sub style="color:black;">stalk</sub>]] 00:56, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

== WPOOK Banner ==

I think this version of the banner is a good one to start with. I'll give it the go ahead. So when can we start advertising the banner? [[User:Burningview|Burningview]] ([[User talk:Burningview|talk]]) 02:09, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Okay!, the banner's live now! If you view [[Template:Wikipedia ads]] , there will be a 1 in 184 chance you'll see WP:OOK! :) --[[User:penubag|'''<span style="background:#00CCFF;color:#0066FF;font-size:84%">&nbsp;penubag&nbsp;</span>''']] ([[User talk:penubag|talk]]) 07:13, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

== Whats Missing ==
Ive found on the OOK portal that some of the branches of philosophy are missing, and they have no outlines currently. I'm adding the remaining ones and i'm going to see about starting a few of these outlines. [[User:Burningview|Burningview]] ([[User talk:Burningview|talk]]) 17:24, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
:Ive took the liberty in creating the article [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Outline of knowledge/Drafts/Outline of Christianity|Outline of Christianity]]. Islam is the only outline started out of all the religions. I'm going to be working on these religion outlines my friend. [[User:Burningview|Burningview]] ([[User talk:Burningview|talk]]) 18:10, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

:: Be sure to check [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Outline of knowledge/Projected outline]].  It's a list of all outlines: including outline articles, drafts, and planned outlines. 

:: Some of the philosophical subjects have drafts (or redlinks to create them) there.

:: [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  19:41, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

== Christianity Outline ==
What's your opinion of the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Outline of knowledge/Drafts/Outline of Christianity|outline]] so far? Ive been working on it for a couple of hours now. Love it if someone could help me improve it more. [[User:Burningview|Burningview]] ([[User talk:Burningview|talk]]) 22:02, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

:Thanks for the help [[User:Burningview|Burningview]] ([[User talk:Burningview|talk]]) 22:41, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

:Im confused about where to put the movements in christianity such as [[restorationism]] [[Charismatic movement]]. Do you suggest putting restorationism under protestantism or making it seperate. Your doing a great job with the outline by the way. [[User:Burningview|Burningview]] ([[User talk:Burningview|talk]]) 00:05, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

:: You're welcome.  [[Wikipedia:Navigation templates|Navigation templates]] are another good source for links.  Like [[Template:Christian History]], which I harvested the links from for the history section.

:: The [[Charismatic Movement]] is already covered under the Age of Ideologies.  

:: But if you are looking for [[Charismatic Restorationism]], it redirects to [[British New Church Movement]].

:: Movements are historical, unless they're current.

:: [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  01:41, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

== Country Outlines: Non-Free Use Coats of Arms ==

What is the situation on the outlines for using non-free use images of Coats of Arms, it's just that I noticed there are a lot without images. Can they be used or not? <font face="Batik Regular">''[[User:Highfields|Highfields]]'' ([[User talk:Highfields|talk]], [[Special:Contributions/Highfields|contribs]], [[Wikipedia:Editor review/Highfields|review]])</font> 13:47, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
: I think it falls under [[fair use]].  The coats of arms are legitimately used under the articles for their respective countries, and outlines have the same scope as their corresponding articles.  "Outline of" just means the type of page, while the subject is the same as for the article.  The problem is there is a bot set up that automatically removes those images from all pages except the subject article.  It has been slowly but surely removing them from the outlines.  To fix this problem, we'll have to take it to [[WP:BOTS]] and failing that, [[WP:COPYRIGHT]] or [[WP:VPP]].  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  18:29, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

== [[WP:VPT]] discussion ==

{{talkback|Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)|How do you use a variable to insert a page's name uncapitalized?|ts=14:58, 17 June 2009 (UTC) by [[User:Haza-w|<b style="color:#FF0000;">haz</b>]] <span style="font-size:x-small;">([[User_talk:Haza-w|talk]])</span>}}

== replies ==

Thank you so much for the barnstar, I appreciate it!  It means a lot coming from you, but you are much more deserving of one! 

As for the water, I chose that because I've had problem finding the proper article myself.  I was doing a chemistry assignment and the regular Water article wasn't as comprehensive as Water (properties).  But then I found out we even had articles on [[Water_(data_page)]] and Color of water, which would have been very helpful had I known they existed.
But we also don't have an outline for water, so it may be better to demo a well developed outline.  If you have any good ideas, just go ahead and change it as you see fit. --[[User:penubag|'''<span style="background:#00CCFF;color:#0066FF;font-size:84%">&nbsp;penubag&nbsp;</span>''']] ([[User talk:penubag|talk]]) 18:15, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

: That sheds light on your perspective...  Hatnotes can be easily missed, while an outline formally presents the links in context to the subject of the outline.  Makes sense.

: We don't have an outline on water (yet).  But [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Outline of knowledge/Drafts/Outline of chocolate|Outline of chocolate]] is approaching completion, and we're almost due for another collaboration.  :)  

: [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  18:16, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

==Hey there==
You've done a lot of great work here but one thing with these outlines or whatever you cvall them,I like my wikipedia plain and have great trouble navigating it with all the colours and buttons seem to go missing etc. It is perhaps just me but I like just to be able to read an article without all that flashy stuff. I don't know how to sort that cos the aim of your project is admeirable and you have worked really hard on it, and that is great, I just find it personally very hard to navigate with all this stuff in the way. Please take this simply as constructive criticism you have worked very hard on an admirable effort to try to pull stuff together and I think after the usual grumbles you will succeed and make wikipedia better I just dont like stuff kinda shoved in front of my face.

: Which pages are you talking about?

I think I am allowed to do this on a talk page as for water I am a molecular modelling scientist for a company called www.accelrys.com. You will find stacks of free stuff on the website. Obviously I can't put that on a main page but I think I am allowed to mention it on a talk page, if not please excuse me. You can download our 3d molecular modelling software for free, well you are not stupid so easier just to let you do browse it and decide if it is of any use to you. There is also a famous article (not I think on WP, at least not yet) about dihydrogen oxide ie H20 which shows that it is lethal, causes drowning if inhaled, is found in all kinds of poisonous chemicals, is used by the US navy in vast quantities, is a major component of acid rain, etc etc try to find a ref to it maybe. I am gonna try find it now but I better save this message first as I drop a lot. [[User:SimonTrew|SimonTrew]] ([[User talk:SimonTrew|talk]]) 19:16, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

: Are you referring to the [[Dihydrogen monoxide hoax]]?  :)  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  18:08, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

::No wonder I couldn't find it, it should just be dihydrogen oxide you only use mono- kinda to distinguish if there are others (as far as I know there are no others there are heavy hydrogens etch but not like two oxygens stuck to two hydrogens). Not that this is your problem I guess but I dislike it being called a hoax (and WP:MOS somewhere or other that I am too tired to look up has mention of what is or is not a hoax) I think it is a bad title. Like It WAS published (if not by this or that person etc) IS largely true and so IS NOT essentially a hoax. The hoax would be kinda a meta-artcle ABOUT that publication, not the publication itself. I think it is kinda odd to call it a hoax

Best wishes as always [[User:SimonTrew|SimonTrew]] ([[User talk:SimonTrew|talk]]) 21:40, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

== First task fixing ==

: In [[User:MacMed/Sandbox01]], this appears: 

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki/Computer_science#See_also Computer science] ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki/Free_software#See_also Free software], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki/Information_technology#See_also Information technology], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki/The_Internet#See_also Internet], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki/Computer_programming#See_also Programming], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki/Software_engineering#See_also Software engineering])

:Does that mean that you want all the articles in the brackets to have <nowiki>{{main|Outline of computer science}}</nowiki> or what? Thanks, [[User:MacMed|<b style="color:green;">MacMed</b>]][[User talk:MacMed|<sup style="color:red;">talk</sup>]][[Special:Contributions/MacMed|<sub style="color:black;">stalk</sub>]] 15:04, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

:: No, it means [[Portal:Contents/Outline of knowledge#Technology and applied sciences|that portion of the OOK page]] is in the wrong [[tree structure]] format. :) Parenthetical.  These outlines used to be just "structured lists", and the conversion to outline format isn't complete yet.  

:: Thank you for pointing that out.

:: I've fixed it. (Sort of)

:: By the way, {{tl|main}} shouldn't be at the top of the outline pages, because the topic link is usually at the very beginning of the lead paragraph.  See [[WP:OVERLINK]].  (Though it seemed like a good idea at the time).

:: Keep up the good work!

:: [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  17:42, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

== Fishing outline ==

I am not sure whether I am making this right or not, so I haven't done that much progress could you or someone in the project take a look at it and give me some feedback, so I will know if I'm going in the right direction. Thanks, [[User:Vivio Testarossa|<span style="color:green;">Vivio<span style="color:red;"> Testa<span style="color:blue;">rossa</span></span></span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Vivio Testarossa|Talk]]</sup> 02:10, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm happy to help.  Though I won't be on much over the next few days.

We generally don't linkify headings - it's one of the guidelines in the Manual of Style.  See [[WP:HEAD]].  Links in headings cause accessibility problems for some users.

Use {{tl|main}} instead.

A neat trick you might want to try for finding articles is site-specific searches of Wikipedia.

I'm about to be logged off.

Gotta go.

[[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  02:45, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

==Many messages==
=== contest idea ===
Instead of a contest that requires tracking each edit for each editor, how about an outlining contest that would run similar to the Featured Lists process, except with our own judges?  We would have teams (maybe from specific Wikiprojects) make outlines in their subject area and submit them for review after a certain amount of time, which would be reviewed on quality and/or quantity.  This would get rid of problems like time zone differences and having to track each edit. One possible problem is that the subject areas are so different from each other it may be unfair if teams tackle easier topics to outline. (and how do we determine what's easier or fairly judge between different subjects?) One solution could be to have Wikiprojects of similar subjects compete. For example we can have Wikiproject Chemisty vs Wikiproject Physics, or even Wikiproject .NET vs Wikiproject C++.  After that, we would judge the outlines they've completed (maybe with the help of Wikiproject Science for the former) and award the winning team medals and a trinket for their project page. There are endless possibilities. 

I'm not sure what's been come up with yet, but this is just an idea that occurred to me a while ago, maybe we'll incorporate some ideas here.--[[User:penubag|'''<span style="background:#00CCFF;color:#0066FF;font-size:84%">&nbsp;penubag&nbsp;</span>''']] ([[User talk:penubag|talk]]) 08:55, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

: This is all that has happened so far: see [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Countries#Country outline contest proposal]].  The ball is in our court, and we need to take the next step.  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  22:06, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
::Okay, but if this is going to be big, it needs its own page. I'll work on it and get back to you. What I have right above will be the basis of the contest. Would you like to comment or edit the page later? --[[User:penubag|'''<span style="background:#00CCFF;color:#0066FF;font-size:84%">&nbsp;penubag&nbsp;</span>''']] ([[User talk:penubag|talk]]) 07:35, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

=== replies on my talk===
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3APenubag&diff=297328062&oldid=297243216]. diff since I replied on my page. --[[User:penubag|'''<span style="background:#00CCFF;color:#0066FF;font-size:84%">&nbsp;penubag&nbsp;</span>''']] ([[User talk:penubag|talk]]) 08:55, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

===Userbox ===
Check out my userpage ([[User:penubag/user page]]). I have the WP:ook userbox on it! You can edit the box as you see fit here:  [[User:penubag/Sandbox3]] --[[User:penubag|'''<span style="background:#00CCFF;color:#0066FF;font-size:84%">&nbsp;penubag&nbsp;</span>''']] ([[User talk:penubag|talk]]) 21:06, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

== <nowiki>{{main|Outline of x}} </nowiki> ==

Just to say, I would be happy to start placing these on pages that haven't got them and the reverse on the corresponding outline. I've got nothing to do now I've finished all my projects! 

Is there anything I should know about how to do them before I start?, I noticed some pages have a hidden notice on them: <nowiki><!-- PLEASE LEAVE THIS LINE IN PLACE as it leads to the page that serves as the table of contents for this subject's coverage across Wikipedia. Thank you.--></nowiki>. Do they have to be at the top, eg. [[Japan]], or see also, eg. [[Abkhazia]]?

<font face="Batik Regular">''[[User:Highfields|Highfields]]'' ([[User talk:Highfields|talk]], [[Special:Contributions/Highfields|contribs]], [[Wikipedia:Editor review/Highfields|review]])</font> 10:31, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Ps. Are you sure this is the correct link?, for example, on the Germany article, a link saying {{main|Outline of Germany}}'' might look wrong, it's not really the main article, that's the Germany article itself. Would a see also link be more appropriate?

Pps. I'll start on the countries then move through the other main topics, it should be quick just posting links on each. <font face="Batik Regular">''[[User:Highfields|Highfields]]'' ([[User talk:Highfields|talk]], [[Special:Contributions/Highfields|contribs]], [[Wikipedia:Editor review/Highfields|review]])</font> 10:35, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

: I was overruled 2 to 1, '''[[Wikipedia talk:Outlines#top of article reference to outline is unnecessary spam|here]]'''.  Nobody else showed up for the discussion, and I of course couldn't (and didn't) invite them, because that would be [[WP:CANVASS|canvassing]].  Therefore, the consensus is no hatnotes at the top of articles leading to the corresponding outlines, per [[WP:RELATED]].  That includes the {{tl|main}} template.  

: Now you know why ''watching'' is so important.

: Note that we did not discuss hatnotes at the top of outline pages, though {{tl|main}} is redundant there, since the main article is linked to at the beginning of the lead paragraph, in most cases.  And so {{tl|main}} should be removed from the top of the outlines, because it is a form of overlinking.  See [[WP:OVERLINK]].

: The consensus currently is to place the link in the See also section, which is where links to "related information" goes.  And since the outline is the main article containing related information, we can use the {{tl|main}} template down there in the see also section.  And so far, nobody has complained.

Then what's the task? 

There are two:

=== Task #1: place {{tl|main}} at the top of the "See also" section, in the following way: ===

Place <nowiki>{{main|Outline of x}} </nowiki> at the top of the see also section of the article corresponding to the outline.  (With some help), I've created a template to help with this.  Instead of placing the above code and typing in the subject manually, paste in this:

'''<nowiki>{{subst:User:The Transhumanist/Sandbox47}}</nowiki>'''

That will place the subject name automatically, and will adjust it for most cases of "the" and plurals (such as ''Outline of the Cocos Islands'', and ''Outline of ants'').

=== Task #2: remove {{tl|main}} from the top of all of the outlines (including the drafts) ===

Thank you.

Good luck.

Have fun.

[[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  20:45, 21 June 2009 (UTC)


*OK, will do<font face="Batik Regular">''[[User:Highfields|Highfields]]'' ([[User talk:Highfields|talk]], [[Special:Contributions/Highfields|contribs]], [[Wikipedia:Editor review/Highfields|review]])</font> 09:01, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

==OOK Join Request==
I'm sure you have it watchlisted, but I have considered your request and joined the [[WP:WPOOK]] as its 24th member :). I think I'll be completely done with the forestry outline within the next 10 days or so. I don't believe I'm as knowledgable in any other one outlinable subject, but could contribute substantially across a lot of related or semi-related topics (in particular I'm intrigued by [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Outline of knowledge/Drafts/Outline of research|research]]). If you have anything specific in mind, let me know and I will be more than willing to contribute. [[User:Minnecologies|Minnecologies]] ([[User talk:Minnecologies|talk]]) 21:08, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
:I familiarized myself with the OOK structure and policies when the WPOOK template was put on the forestry outline talk page, so I believe I have a pretty good idea of how everything works. I am also quite inclined towards making lists (see my masterpieces [[List of forestry universities and colleges|here]] and [[List of shade-tolerant species|here]]), so I've read through all the guidelines pertaining to that. For now I could oversight and watchlist everything, but as the project picks up steam I would like to concentrate on the science outlines, perhaps even making a guideline for how they're to be developed? For now I think I will get started on the merges. [[User:Minnecologies|Minnecologies]] ([[User talk:Minnecologies|talk]]) 17:54, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
:: That sounds good to me.  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  21:58, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

== Note ==

After seeing your [[User:The Transhumanist/Wish List|wish list]], I think you might be happy to know that [[Water fluoridation]] reached [[WP:FA|featured article status]]. Regards, [[User:Dabomb87|Dabomb87]] ([[User talk:Dabomb87|talk]]) 00:46, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

: Thank you.  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  21:57, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

== replies ==

Sorry about this again but I replied on my talk page.
Here's the diff [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3APenubag&diff=297958187&oldid=297812984]
--[[User:penubag|'''<span style="background:#00CCFF;color:#0066FF;font-size:84%">&nbsp;penubag&nbsp;</span>''']] ([[User talk:penubag|talk]]) 07:30, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
:Also replied above--[[User:penubag|'''<span style="background:#00CCFF;color:#0066FF;font-size:84%">&nbsp;penubag&nbsp;</span>''']] ([[User talk:penubag|talk]]) 07:35, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
::Userboxes finished and integrated to wp:wpook--[[User:penubag|'''<span style="background:#00CCFF;color:#0066FF;font-size:84%">&nbsp;penubag&nbsp;</span>''']] ([[User talk:penubag|talk]]) 00:56, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

::: I changed that section a little.  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  01:24, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

== Outline links ==

I spotted and have started using the following template on the pages, feel free to notify me it I've done bad.

{{Outline|Outline of x}}

: Posting this to the see also section = bad.  That's because we are pushing for this to be added to the tops of pages, and it will detract from this effort if they are already in the see also section, because then there will be 2 copies of it on each page.  I don't think other editors will let that stand, do you?


: By the way, to add the page names to '''{{tl|main}}''' automatically, use this:

: '''<nowiki>{{subst:User:The Transhumanist/Sandbox46}}</nowiki>'''

: That places '''<nowiki>{{main|Outline of x}}</nowiki>''', and fills in the "x" automatically.

: [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  17:33, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Well it's just that I've already had 1 revert and 1 seperate complaint about using the <nowiki>{{main}}</nowiki> template <font face="Batik Regular">''[[User:Highfields|Highfields]]'' ([[User talk:Highfields|talk]], [[Special:Contributions/Highfields|contribs]], [[Wikipedia:Editor review/Highfields|review]])</font> 17:56, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Anyway, I've done a few already so I'll change the ones I've done and start proper tomorrow <font face="Batik Regular">''[[User:Highfields|Highfields]]'' ([[User talk:Highfields|talk]], [[Special:Contributions/Highfields|contribs]], [[Wikipedia:Editor review/Highfields|review]])</font> 18:00, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Actually I've been given, by a very kind editor, a list of codes in the form of <nowiki>{{Main|Outline of Canada}}</nowiki> but he/she has already filled all the gaps in for all the geography related articles, their on my sandbox which you can find via my userpage <font face="Batik Regular">''[[User:Highfields|Highfields]]'' ([[User talk:Highfields|talk]], [[Special:Contributions/Highfields|contribs]], [[Wikipedia:Editor review/Highfields|review]])</font> 18:15, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

: [[WP:SEEALSO]] states that "the ''See also'' section should '''not''' contain links to [[Wikipedia:Red link|pages that do not exist (red links)]]."  

: So we shouldn't add any redlinks there.

: [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  19:26, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

::I removed the subst tags from [[User:The Transhumanist/Sandbox47]] and it now works &ndash; I think it's something to do with the way substing the parser functions works. Perhaps you could move that code to a template (something like {{tl|outline}}) and then transclude it on articles without using subst. [[User:Haza-w|<b style="color:#FF0000;">haz</b>]] <span style="font-size:x-small;">([[User_talk:Haza-w|talk]])</span> 19:58, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

::: Makes sense.  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  20:03, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

:I will put <nowiki><!--</nowiki> clauses around the redlink ones, eg. the Canadian provinces <font face="Batik Regular">''[[User:Highfields|Highfields]]'' ([[User talk:Highfields|talk]], [[Special:Contributions/Highfields|contribs]], [[Wikipedia:Editor review/Highfields|review]])</font> 09:57, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

== RE: The categorisation task ==

Hi The Transhumanist,

Unfortunately I have been unable to do this task as I simply haven't had the spare time for the job! I'm going for a wikibreak in a few weeks too, therefore I think I'm going to have to postpone this task until I come back from the break!

Thanks,

[[User:Thehelpfulone|<span style="color:red;">'''The'''</span>]][[User_talk:Thehelpfulone|<span style="color:black;"> '''Helpful'''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Thehelpfulone|<span style="color:red;"> '''One'''</span>]] 21:59, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

== WP:WPOOK front page ==

I'm happy to announce that it is now 100% complete!! As being complete, the old project page's material has been fully integrated into this one. You can always view the original at [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Outline of knowledge/old page]]. Let me know what you think. --[[User:penubag|'''<span style="background:#00CCFF;color:#0066FF;font-size:84%">&nbsp;penubag&nbsp;</span>''']] ([[User talk:penubag|talk]]) 10:07, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

==Outlines==

You asked on my page "what are you plans for these?" just at a time when I'm feeling myself overwhelmed by all the different wiki-pies I've got my big fingers into....as you know I've updated/amended that page quite a bit and will try to do some more; one time-issue for me is in the course of repairing/expanding/honing it I wind up spending time on lists and articles linked and/or associated research and it's like a tree that just keeps on growing, and there remain complexities/issues with the structure/content that I'm avoiding for now, pending input from certain other editors (e.g. re the Law section, from a Wikipedian who I know is a lawyer...).  

I'm not prepared to take on any more work, e.g. on teh other provinces - all of which are structured differently than British Columbia is, by quite a bit in each case (especially Quebec) and in each jurisdiction there are different structural/categorization issues that I'm not going to begin to explain here; I'm in Nova Scotia right now and don't know much about the place and there's no outline started and I'm not sure I'd want to get involved....I'm trying to have a real life outside Wikipedia and it's taking up more and more of my time....I can advise on the other provinces, when they come around, if ''I'm'' still around (and I may not be), but I can't really help much with Saskatchewan because I've only ever driven through the place (without stopping, except for coffee/donuts).  

{{anchor|Category links}}
One shortcut I've begun to use in completing the BC Outline, also, is to link categories if there is no relevant article or list; and I think linking categories in the Outlines is superior to linking lists, as lists need to be manually updated whereas categories are self-updating; when there ''are'' articles, e.g. [[Land districts of British Columbia]] I've linked those; when there are layers upon layers of subcategories I won't, so [[Landforms of British Columbia]] I won't link to [[:Category:Landforms of British Columbia]] but will have to try and create, or begin creating [[List of landforms of British Columbia]] (hierarchical, and not alphabetical).  Alphabetical lists like [[List of British Columbia-related topics]] I find completely pointless, and also if fully complete would be MASSIVE; it's why [[List of British Columbia rivers]] is arranged hierarchically, i.e. according to the tributary tree.  

Anyway these are just some thoughts; I'd meant to reply to you but have been mulling my reply as well as mulling over how I can retreat from Wikipedia to get on with my life, which takes just as much energy and creativity and in fact needs me to focus my energy and creativity on less mundane/pragmatic matters (I'm a musician/composer/songwriter in search of a career and a living...which I don't have at present...).  

Indulging in cataloguing exercises is not really how I came here or what I'd prefer to spend my wiki-time doing; I rarely write anything but stub-content lately, but I started in here as an historian and know there's various articles that I'd like to finish contributing to before....disappearing from Wikipedia at some point.  

I'll try and finish the BC Outline as much as I can before that time - I'm one of the few BC Wikipedians with the broad knowledge/expertise about the place to be able to do so - but I really have no room to work on other outlines, which means coming to terms with how all the other provinces are structured.....and lots more work unrelated to my core interests and also unrelated to my personal future, or personal ambitions anyway....[[User:Skookum1|Skookum1]] ([[User talk:Skookum1|talk]]) 14:27, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

: OK. First things first: take a deep breath.  A really deep breath.  Deeper.  Deeper.  Hold it.  1... 2... 3... 4... 5... 6... 7... 8... 9... 10... Longer...  Longer...  

: Now exhale.  Aaaaaaah.

: Now repeat that 10 times.

: (A few minutes later)...

: Relaxing, isn't it?  

: Remember, moderation in all things.  Including moderation. :) (We all need the occasional binge).

: Keep in mind that it's better for Wikipedia if you work on this encyclopedia slowly and steadily, rather than in one mad rush followed by burnout.  As you get older, you'll get wiser (hopefully we all will), and Wikipedia will benefit - but only if you're still here!

: If you are addicted, there's only one cure: an immediate wikibreak.  Return only when you are able to keep it rational.  You need to focus on what's truly important to you...

: Work on your career and family life.  Those come first.  And when you are ready, spend a few minutes on Wikipedia each evening if you can, or a few hours on weekends.  Keep it within the spare time you can truly afford to spend on it, that is, without sacrificing more important things.

: Maintain your perspective.

: And be sure to write a song about Wikipedia.  :)

: [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  17:51, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

== My awkward reply ==

Thanks for the tips! I will gladly join the Wiki Project. . . I'll add my name to the list just after sending this to you! [[User:Mnation2|Mnation2]] ([[User talk:Mnation2|talk]]) 17:13, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

== Links to categories ==

I'm not aware of any specific guidance. Personally, I add {{tl|maincat}} whenever it is the only appropriate choice (usually as a sub-section hatnote, e.g. [[Lists of films#Filmographies]]), but it has less than 100 uses currently, so is obviously not considered a standard, yet. Rarely, I'll add a link to a category from a SeeAlso section. I'd suggest asking at [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Categories]] or [[Wikipedia:FAQ/Categorization]] for more input, before applying it widely. -- [[User:Quiddity|Quiddity]] ([[User talk:Quiddity|talk]]) 18:30, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

::Personally, I'd agree with you that the category links (eg in [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Outline of knowledge/Drafts/Outline of British Columbia]]) should not be piped. However, I have no objections to linking categories, rather than creating new ''and plain'' lists of those categories (partially depending on whether the category is in a "complete" or "still growing" state, I guess). 

::Perhaps we could meld redlinks with category links somehow, such as, replace the piped link to [[:Category:Lakes of British Columbia|Lakes of British Columbia]], with this line:
::*[[Lakes of British Columbia]] ([[:Category:Lakes of British Columbia]])
::That way the editor with no time/interest in creating a new stub-list can still help everyone (readers and editors) by pointing in the right direction...

::Other than that, I'd ask someone who knows more about categories for input. 

::Oh, I also keep wondering about more potential uses for {{tl|Category tree}} (or [[mw:Extension:CategoryTree|mw:categorytree]]). E.g. they work great in {{tl|Infoboxwatch}}. I've been meaning to experiment with more of those, somewhere... -- [[User:Quiddity|Quiddity]] ([[User talk:Quiddity|talk]]) 00:28, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

== Bot account ==

eh, that kinda feel apart, primarily due to my cluelessness around technical stuff. I could use AWB to deliver the newsletters though. –'''[[User:Juliancolton|<span style="font-family:Script MT;color:#36648B">Juliancolton</span>]]'''&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;[[User_talk:Juliancolton|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:gray">''Talk''</span></sup>]] 18:33, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
: [[Wikipedia:AutoWikiBrowser/User_manual#Bots|AWB is a bot]].  It just needs to be activated.  And for that you need '''[[Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval|bot approval.  It's easy!]]'''  See:

:* [[Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/Thehelpfulbot]]
:* [[Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/Thehelpfulbot 2]]
:* [[Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/Thehelpfulbot 3]]
:* [[Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/Thehelpfulbot 4]]
:* [[Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/Thehelpfulbot 5]]
:* [[Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/Thehelpfulbot 6]]
:* [[Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/Thehelpfulbot 7]]
:* [[Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/Thehelpfulbot 8]]
:* [[Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/Thehelpfulbot 9]]

: For your first request, make it for newsletter delivery, for the [[WP:WPOOK]] and for others upon request.  That should go through without a hitch.  There's a place on the standard form to indicate that you'll be using AWB.

: (Once you have your initial approval, it is even easier to  [[Wikipedia:Bots/Requests_for_approval#Requests to add a task to an already-approved bot|get new tasks approved for it]].  But we'll deal with that later).

: Send me links as you go through the process, so that I can comment if needed.

: Good luck. :)

: Have fun.

: [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  18:54, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

:P.S.: while waiting for bot approval, you can still use AWB manually.  But you'll enjoy it much more if AWB is working in the background automatically while you are doing your thing on another window!  They don't call it multi-tasking for nothing.  :)

== You're overwhelming my talk page ==

I would like to request that instead of dumping full-length reports about OOK stuff, that you do like the Signpost and just link to articles within your user space. This would be better for the servers (less storage space required for duplicated talk messages), make my talk page look a whole lot less cluttered (I'm literally losing messages tucked in between your updates), and it will make me take the project more seriously (as it is, I'm starting to get irritated every time I see a new message indicated and then another lengthy "spew" from you). I believe the OOK is important, but it's actually pretty low down on my priority list for my limited on-wiki editing time. Yet, my talk page is filled with OOK stuff. I do check the Signpost every week when it's updated. I think it's reasonable to expect that WP:OOK folks can remember to do that. If not a Signpost-style notification, then how about just a small blurb like some of the WikiProjects do for their newsletters? It still triggers a new message notification, but it's compact enough to not be annoying. Or give people a choice.

I don't mean to be rude or disheartening, but please remember that you asked me for my advice. So, here is my advice for how to not fill my (and others') talk page with copious amounts of text that is starting to feel a bit spammy. Save the talk page announcements for highly time-sensitive announcements like you did originally, not routine updates. Thanks! &mdash;[[User:Willscrlt|<span style="color:#03D">Will</span><span style="color:#B01">scrlt</span>]]&nbsp;<small>(&nbsp;[[User talk:Willscrlt|“Talk”]]&nbsp;)</small> 00:08, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

: Thank you for the advice. Good idea. I hadn't thought of that. I'll send you a link in the future.  And I'll add a P.S. to future postings to provide that option to other recipients.  Again, thank you.
:: Thanks.  :-) &mdash;[[User:Willscrlt|<span style="color:#03D">Will</span><span style="color:#B01">scrlt</span>]]&nbsp;<small>(&nbsp;[[User talk:Willscrlt|“Talk”]]&nbsp;)</small> 10:26, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

: By the way, what do you think of the new [[WP:WPOOK|Project page]]? [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  00:22, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
::I second the request for less lengthy and rapidfire announcements, in particular the ===subheader=== ToC-fillers ;)
::: {{done}} [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  00:58, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
::Re: the new projectpage, the header takes up 1/3 of my screen. Can we lose the text-as-graphic altogether?  More when I get back from dinner.. -- [[User:Quiddity|Quiddity]] ([[User talk:Quiddity|talk]]) 00:35, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
::::I've reduced the amount of whitespace in the header and should be much smaller. --[[User:penubag|'''<span style="background:#00CCFF;color:#0066FF;font-size:84%">&nbsp;penubag&nbsp;</span>''']] ([[User talk:penubag|talk]]) 08:52, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
::::: The text as a graphic logo is still quite large and overwhelming. Also, it doesn't scale well or look good printed out at low resolution in B&W. I'd prefer to see it in regular text, using CSS styles to generate a similar (though not quite so large) result.
::::: As to the rest of the page, it is pretty good. Instead of "Why W needs Outlines", I think if the entire paragraph was reworded to answer the question, "How does the Outline of Knowledge help me?", or, "How do outlines help me?", it would pack a better punch. Only established editors who have invested time and effort are likely to care much about how something helps Wikipedia. On the other hand, nearly everyone cares about how something can help them. Also, be sure to continue to sell the benefits ("Selling the sizzle of the steak" in marketing phraseology) in the rewrite. Benefits are listed, currently, but it might be even more effective to restyle that into a bulleted list with the first word of phrase being a bolded benefit followed by a brief explanation or additional details. Bulleted lists are faster and friendlier to read and mentally absorb. Large paragraphs of text are often skipped over unless the headline really grabs the reader (which the revised question ''might'', but why risk it?). These suggestions are established design and marketing principles that apply in any place where you are trying to capture a reader's attention and get them to take action (i.e., to become involved with the project in this case). The use of bulleted lists below the first two paragraphs is good, and probably partly what makes the first two paragraphs look blocky and dark to read (not enough [[white space]]). You've got good meat on the page, but now it needs the sizzle brought out a bit more to make it as effective as possible. :-) &mdash;[[User:Willscrlt|<span style="color:#03D">Will</span><span style="color:#B01">scrlt</span>]]&nbsp;<small>(&nbsp;[[User talk:Willscrlt|“Talk”]]&nbsp;)</small> 10:26, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
::::::Thanks for your feedback. I suppose at this point it's all a matter of preference. I think increasing whitespace makes the page look more bulky and large, rather than trim, neat, and userfriendly. Also, the bulleted explanations at the top are good at a glance but don't sustain as much to the debates against outlines.  --[[User:penubag|'''<span style="background:#00CCFF;color:#0066FF;font-size:84%">&nbsp;penubag&nbsp;</span>''']] ([[User talk:penubag|talk]]) 09:50, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
:::I would also appreciate it if you posted links to announcements on my page, rather than something like [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:The_Earwig&diff=297245807&oldid=297131196 this]. In my own opinion, that is simply too long for a WikiProject update concerning something that I'm not even that involved in. Don't get me wrong: I like to read the updates, but they simply take up too much room. Think about it: what would it be like it the Singpost gave you [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/Tools/Single&oldid=274368405 this] every week instead of [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:The_Earwig&diff=298053065&oldid=298029569 this]? My regards, [[User:The Earwig|<span style="color:#008800">The</span> <span style="color:#004400">Earwig</span>]] <span style="font-family:Verdana"><small>([[User_talk:The Earwig|Talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/The Earwig|Contribs]])</small></span> 00:55, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
::: {{done}} [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  00:58, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

::::I agree that it is overwheming, which in practice means I do not add to this project at all because I can't see the meat for the potatoes. Of course it is good that WP has editors with many different styles and manner of editing, but for myself I tend to make lots of small, incremental edits and if someone asks me to edit an entire long article it can take me at least a week to do it, by twhich time another drop of "spam" has already come into my talk page.  I am qiute omnivorous and take on all kinds of subjects and reasons for editing-- anything from Latin translations to the history of railway lines to [[Newmarket, Suffolk]] to [[Caramel color]] or [[Electric car]]s or almost anything else that happens to link to a link to a link to something I once edited, but it can kinda seem sometimes like OOK is the only or most important thing on WP. I am sure it is not ''intended'' to seem like that, but yes, overwhelming amounts of information mean I spend more time editing my talk page than actually editing articles. This is of course all in good faith.

::::Best wishes [[User:SimonTrew|SimonTrew]] ([[User talk:SimonTrew|talk]]) 21:23, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

== My bot ==

Could you comment on [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Bots/Requests_for_approval/JCbot_2&diff=298242862&oldid=298181046 this]? –'''[[User:Juliancolton|<span style="font-family:Script MT;color:#36648B">Juliancolton</span>]]'''&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;[[User_talk:Juliancolton|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:gray">''Talk''</span></sup>]] 01:26, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

: {{done}} [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  02:00, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

::Approved for one day. Got a list of people to deliver the newsletter to? –'''[[User:Juliancolton|<span style="font-family:Script MT;color:#36648B">Juliancolton</span>]]'''&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;[[User_talk:Juliancolton|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:gray">''Talk''</span></sup>]] 19:17, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

:::{{done}} –'''[[User:Juliancolton|<span style="font-family:Script MT;color:#36648B">Juliancolton</span>]]'''&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;[[User_talk:Juliancolton|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:gray">''Talk''</span></sup>]] 20:55, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
:[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Bots/Requests_for_approval/JCbot_2&diff=299354378&oldid=298630533 Approved!] –'''[[User:Juliancolton|<span style="font-family:Script MT;color:#36648B">Juliancolton</span>]]'''&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;[[User_talk:Juliancolton|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:gray">''Talk''</span></sup>]] 18:17, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

== Re: ==

{{Reply|Skaterthealmighty}}

<br>
Ditto, [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3APenubag&diff=298304113&oldid=298248863 replies] --[[User:penubag|'''<span style="background:#00CCFF;color:#0066FF;font-size:84%">&nbsp;penubag&nbsp;</span>''']] ([[User talk:penubag|talk]]) 08:49, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

== Help ! ==

Hello

First of all I have to say it is a great work what you are doing on wikipedia, realy.

Would you please check this website ( humansfuture.org ), it is a scientific, informative and well made site.

Long time ago it was spammed by some ignorant member and then was blacklisted by some wikipedia adminstrators here.

I tried to convince them to unblock the site to give it a chance to be used on wikipedia as a good source of information but they dont see the value of it, maybe beacuse it is not their field of interest or speciality.

Please I need you to help me and to support my proposal [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki_talk:Spam-blacklist#humansfuture.org here] to get the website unblocked.

That site deserves a chance, right ?

Thank you

--[[User:Xhuman|Xhuman]] ([[User talk:Xhuman|talk]]) 18:44, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

: I like the website.  It is informative, and after a quick skim, it appears to coincide with what I know about the subject.

: However, the site does not have a reputation for fact-checking, probably because they do not provide references for the information presented on its pages.  Therefore, it cannot be considered a reliable source.

: Wikipedia relies upon reliable sources to offset the problems caused by being an open source encyclopedia subject to being edited by anybody.  Wikipedia's articles are only as good as their [[WP:VER|verifiability]].  Citations are the primary method through which Wikipedia provides verification. And cited sources are only as good as ''their'' sources.

: If the website were to include its references as inline citations, and those references checked out, then I'm sure it would be accepted as a reliable source.

: I hope I've been of some help.

: [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  19:05, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks alot for your reply.

The website is not just scientific, actually it is more speculative in nature so how can references be provided for such a type of speculative articles ?

I have already mentioned in my proposal that these articles were written by famous writers and futurists including John Glad, Ray Kurzweil and Nick Bostrom.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Bostrom

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Glad

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Kurzweil

Also there are more than 1800 pages linking back to the website including big trusted sites like about.com

We are not asking the wikipedians to link to the website now, we just want it to be at least unblocked to make it possible for the website to be used someday on wikipedia in a good way, thats all.

--[[User:Xhuman|Xhuman]] ([[User talk:Xhuman|talk]]) 20:19, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

: I've replied at your proposal.  Basically, '''''if''''' you provide sufficient evidence that the website is a reliable source and that the authored articles are authentic, it should be removed from the spam blacklist.  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  22:36, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

: By the way, there's an image of a man in a bubble on the website's main page.  Is that supposed to be a representation of men in the future?  There's something rather significant missing!  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  23:03, 24 June 2009 (UTC)


Sorry Transhumanist, I was not paying good attention when you asked your questions.

Please check the answers at my proposal and thank you for your guidance and support there.

--[[User:Xhuman|Xhuman]] ([[User talk:Xhuman|talk]]) 15:46, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

== WP:WPOOK front page and contest page ==

I've replied above to Willsc. above about it. I don't think the bullets are as concise as the explanations nor hold as well against debates. Maybe we need a hybrid? Also, the volunteer section should be working and fully aligned now. (just bypass your cache). 
I will work on the contest section now. But before I do that, the contest is going to be a Wikiproject vs. Wikiproject thing/"subject representatives" contest right? I need a bit more info before can I construct the rest of the contest and the page.--[[User:penubag|'''<span style="background:#00CCFF;color:#0066FF;font-size:84%">&nbsp;penubag&nbsp;</span>''']] ([[User talk:penubag|talk]]) 10:27, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

: I'm very happy that we're pulling you deeper into the project.  :)  Exhilarating, isn't it?

: I anticipate that the OOK will [[Exponential growth|grow exponentially]], and so we've got to make the core pages good as we can make them, to minimize confusion and conflict as people join in on the effort to build the OOK.  Once these are completed, we can begin posting notices and invites concerning outlines for eligible subjects that don't have them yet (thousands).

: Debates are most likely to occur at [[Wikipedia talk:Outlines]].

: The bulleted lists complement the descriptive prose that we have elsewhere (at [[Portal:Contents]], [[Portal:Contents/Outline of knowledge]], [[WP:OUTLINE]], [[Wikipedia:Lists#Types of lists]], [[Template:WikiProject Outline of knowledge]] (posted on every outline talk page), and [[Template:Outline of knowledge coverage]] (posted on the talk page of all the subjects and Wikiprojects that correspond to an outline). 

: I've added a link at the top of the project page to [[WP:OUTLINE]], the key page about building outlines.

: I have bigger plans for your paragraphs.  They need to be picked apart, condensed, and adapted/rewritten for inclusion on [[Wikipedia:About|About Wikipedia]] (accessible from every page on Wikipedia), on [[Wikipedia:Stand-alone lists]] (a critical guideline that is seriously out-of-date), [[Wikipedia:Basic navigation]] (a key page of the help system).  The OOK also needs some tips added to the [[WP:TOTD]] and [[WP:TIPS|Tips library]], and one or more of those need to describe the OOK.

:; re<nowiki>:</nowiki> contest 

: The WikiProject angle isn't looking so good.  Many of the wikiprojects have cobwebs.  :(  We will certainly post notices to every relevant WikiProject, and to all their members.  But I think the focus will be on '''country outline''' vs. '''country outline'''.  Contestants will team up by jumping on the outline they want to work on, and the judges will pick the best outline.  The editors of the winning outlines (1st through 5th?) will get awards, and an award and/or award announcement will be posted on the talk pages of the winning outlines, and on the WikiProjects corresponding to those outlines.

: I hope I've been of help.

: [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  17:58, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
::Yup, so far I have to say OOK is a lot of fun, and now makes up all my time on Wikipedia.  Since you have a better grasp on the project, I'll let you decide what's best for the wpook intro. As for the contest, we're focusing on country outlines only? I thought they were more complete than the rest. Well, when that phase is over, I'm thinking we have one subject area compete against themselves at a time. Like for example, one month we'll host the Physical sciences contest where each subject branch could be a team. Physics team vs Chemistry team vs Astronomy team etc could become a scenario. We would of course go to the wikiproject and ask which contestants are up for it. How would that sound?  What should I base the page layout on? --[[User:penubag|'''<span style="background:#00CCFF;color:#0066FF;font-size:84%">&nbsp;penubag&nbsp;</span>''']] ([[User talk:penubag|talk]]) 09:20, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
::I also replied on my talk about the volunteer section with a screenshot. --[[User:penubag|'''<span style="background:#00CCFF;color:#0066FF;font-size:84%">&nbsp;penubag&nbsp;</span>''']] ([[User talk:penubag|talk]]) 10:49, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

::: The first contest should be on country outlines.  Because of their sheer number and each outline's scope (a whole country!), finishing these is a colossal project in its own right, and will require the most editors by far.  We have the award pics ready and waiting (which we invested a lot of time and effort into).  And our outline development priority is to complete as many outlines as possible as soon as possible, to provide a strong example of quality for others to strive for.

::: The geography section represents almost half the outlines.  If we can handle that, we can handle all the rest in a single contest.  This would make a bigger splash and take less time.  Then we could shift focus to creating new outlines, and run a contest for developing their drafts.  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  18:07, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

== Proposal draft ==

Here's a draft, tell me what you think:

To Whom it May Concern,

A while ago, I was asked by [[User:The Transhumanist|a user]] to join [[WP:OOK|Wikiproject Outline of Knowledge]], a project which he coordinates. However, the index of outlines is a little hard to find for the newcomer. Therefore, I request that a link of [[Portal:Contents/Outline of knowledge|this page]] be added to the 'portals' section of the main page.
If you have any questions, feel free to contact [[User talk:The Transhumanist|The Transhumanist]] or [[User talk:Tarheel95|myself]]
Thank you, [[User:Tarheel95|Tarheel95]] ([[User talk:Tarheel95|talk]]) 14:57, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

: Nice first try.  Read [[User:Willscrlt|Willscrlt]]'s paragraph above about "Selling the sizzle of the steak".  The same principle applies here.

: The proposal should focus on the benefits to the ''readers'' of Wikipedia, not its editors or WikiProjects.  It's all about the readers.

: Without asking the questions, the proposal should clearly answer "Why should the Outline of Knowledge have a link on the Main Page?  How would that benefit readers?"

: The proposal should also be precise as to exactly where the link will go, and show what the Main Page will look like with the change.

: For that you'll need to make a mock up of the Main Page with the new link on it.  That's fairly easy.  Copy the source text of the main page to [[User:Tarheel95/Main Page with OOK link]], and start editing.  Then take a screen shot of it and include the screen shot in your proposal.  

: One thing the main page people probably won't go for is anything that pushes the rest of the page down the screen.  Getting the header as small as possible was a major issue in the Main Page's design effort, and I doubt sentiments have changed on that point.

: By the way, there's no need for the formal introduction ("To Whom it May Concern").  You'll just be posting the proposal as a regular message on the Main Page's talk page.  It's a pretty casual hang out.  You should spend some time on there before you make your proposal, to get a feel for it.

: You have your work cut out for you.

: Thank you for taking the initiative on this.

: I look forward to reading your next draft.

: Good luck.

: Have fun.

: [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  15:46, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

: P.S.: [[User talk:Penubag|Penubag]] is our project's graphics and page-layout expert, and I'm pretty handy with page layout myself (I co-coordinated the design effort on the Main Page).  Contact us if you run into any difficulties.

== Question about outline quality and eligibility for hatnote placement ==
Is there any outline currently that meets good article criteria? If not, my suggestion is that we should make that a priority. If we do then I think we should start a collaboration to get it up to featured status. We really need a featured outline. It would benefit our project tremendously. [[User:Burningview|Burningview]] ([[User talk:Burningview|talk]]) 21:37, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

: The people over at FLC don't understand outline standards, and outlines are so new that their standards are still under development.  All the guidelines pertaining to lists that apply to outlines need to be updated, as do all the MOS guidelines pertaining to outlines.  Otherwise, generic list guidelines will be applied to outlines at FLC, and on the OOK pages (which used to be called "Lists of basic topics" we've been doing things differently for years.  Even if that were done, FLC has some standards above and beyond list guidelines that don't fit outlines.  What is needed is a Feature Outlines department, and that's a long ways off.  Patience is the best strategy for now.  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  22:11, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

:: But if we can only put hat-notes for outlines that are as good as the pages, how do we define quality of outlines? --[[User:Stefan|Stefan]] [[User_talk:Stefan|<sup>talk</sup>]] 11:58, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

::: For now, impression.  If you ''feel'' equally or more '''''impressed''''' by an outline than you do by the subject article, then add a hatnote to the subject article.  If the outline serves as an outline as well as the article serves as an article, that's pretty impressive.  For example, compare:

:::* [[Cell biology]] → [[Outline of cell biology]]

:::* [[Japan]] → [[Outline of Japan]]

:::* [[Iceland]] → [[Outline of Iceland]]

:::* [[Anarchism]] → [[Outline of anarchism]]

:::* [[Shark]] → [[Outline of sharks]]

:::* [[Chocolate]] → [[Outline of chocolate]]

:::* [[United States]] → [[Outline of the United States]]

::: [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  16:32, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

== List of marinas ==

I noticed you have edited [[WP:Lists]] recently and you have a couple more years of experience than I do, so I am seeking your help/opinion on something I just noticed at [[List of marinas]]. {{User|Prevostcar}} contributed one 2h42m edit spree to the list adding external links beginning with <pre>http://marinas.com/browse/marina/</pre> for over 50 subsections of the list. I believe this violates [[WP:Lists]] and also [[WP:EL]], but can't find an explicit prohibition, like "Do not add external links to lists articles". I am pretty certain these links need to be taken out of the list, but would appreciate your input and also any more explicitly prohibitive guidelines I can point to on this user's talk page explaining why these edits were not helpful. Since this is the only day the user has edited, it may also be a case of spamming. It also may have been done in good faith. I am surprised no one bothered to revert these edits but it's possible they were simply overlooked. [[User:Sswonk|Sswonk]] ([[User talk:Sswonk|talk]]) 03:42, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

: I'm happy to help...

: Lists are a type of article, and they must comply with article guidelines unless the list guidelines provide an exception.  The '''[[WP:LINKS|guideline on external links]]''' applies to lists.  Read the first sentence.

: The situation you described is also a perfect example of '''[[WP:LINKSPAM|link spam]]'''.  Wikipedia is not a venue for advertising websites.

: Nuke the spam, '''[[Wikipedia:Spam#Warning spammers|warn the spammer]]''', and if the user ignores the warning and continues being a problem, report the spammer to '''[[WP:ANI]]''' and/or '''[[WP:SBL|propose the site be blacklisted]]'''.

: Good luck.

: [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  16:54, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

== Outline updates ==

Hi; I'm just here to thank you for the updates that you've been sending me lately, and also to tell you that I am more than happy to help out with the outline, though not directly, as I am too busy these days. However, if you still need my help, I'll do my best. Thanks again for the updates! I'm glad that everyone is doing so much to help out (and sorry that I can't do the same...=(. Oh well, keep up the good work!). Cheers, [[User:Zachary crimsonwolf|<span style="color:black; font-family:papyrus;">'''Zachary'''</span>]][[User talk:Zachary crimsonwolf|<span style="color:crimson; font-family:papyrus;">'''crimsonwolf'''</span>]] 06:59, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

== {{main}} in comments? ==

I'n not sure what you mean, can you explain in simple-english terms? <font face="Batik Regular">''[[User:Highfields|Highfields]]'' ([[User talk:Highfields|talk]], [[Special:Contributions/Highfields|contribs]], [[Wikipedia:Editor review/Highfields|review]])</font> 11:30, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
: <nowiki><!-- These things are comment delimiters. --></nowiki>

: <nowiki><!-- The words between them is a comment. --></nowiki>

: [[WP:COMMENT]]

: <nowiki><!--{{Main|Outline of British Columbia}}--></nowiki>

: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=British_Columbia&diff=prev&oldid=298097926 Comments are invisible.]

: Placing the "main" link in such a fashion is a superfluous task.  What does it accomplish?  How is placing an invisible non-functioning link better than waiting to place a real one?

: We need to integrate the outlines into the encyclopedia.  That is, link to them from articles so they are not [[WP:ORPHAN|orphans]].  This is our top priority, because outlines are of no use to readers if they don't know the outlines exist.

: [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  16:03, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

::I placed the redlink ones as a hidden comment thing so that after the relevant outlines have been created they can be unhidden <font face="Batik Regular">''[[User:Highfields|Highfields]]'' ([[User talk:Highfields|talk]], [[Special:Contributions/Highfields|contribs]], [[Wikipedia:Editor review/Highfields|review]])</font> 16:09, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

::: I think it would be better to leave them out.

::: By the way, I admire that you tried to figure out what to do with the redlinks.  Trying out solutions is good.  

::: And I'll try to be more specific in future tasks.  'Sorry about the vagueness of that one.

::: Keep up the good work.  

::: [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  19:33, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

== Stats ==

See [http://stats.grok.se/en/200906/Outline_of_sharks], the 26:th I put it as see also link on main shark page!!! I want a hat-note :-) --[[User:Stefan|Stefan]] [[User_talk:Stefan|<sup>talk</sup>]] 01:55, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

: Compare that with [http://www.bypassunblock.org/index.php/1010110A/d20d618fdf7e085b7484a1b2d37d3d6b13fc74a946e2171c890bfc0723cde6ae281818043 shark article traffic]. 

: How can we increase the outline's traffic?   

: [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  21:27, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
::Yes, I know that the main shark page have quite high traffic, so we can never expect to get that high. I can think of a few ways of increasing hits to the outlines.
:# Link to them from the hatnote, I will do that in a few days and then see the difference in hits, but I expect it to be maybe even twice of today, but not sure, will have to wait and see.
:# Make the outline have more keywords that is used for searching, so that a not so specific google search might give the outline a high placement, while the actual page that the searcher is looking for is not as high since he/she does not know what to search for. {{done}}
:# Link to outlines from as many places as possible, this will increase the google rank. In the Shark case this means that all shark species pages should link to the outline, this is more than 300 pages so it will take a while to do, I will add the more common as I go along. 
:# Obviously put outlines on main page and to generally spread the awareness of outlines so that people start to see that they are useful and start using them and updating them so that they get useful.
:# Put links on portals. {{done}}
:# Add links to related nav boxes. {{done}}

--[[User:Stefan|Stefan]] [[User_talk:Stefan|<sup>talk</sup>]] 03:54, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

== "incomplete" hatnotes ==

Sorry, do not understand what you mean.

Are you talking about {{tl|expand outline}}?

If so, I found [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Outline_of_knowledge&diff=prev&oldid=298745335 this] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Outline_of_knowledge&diff=298748198&oldid=298745335 this] and did what I though you (or someone else wanted), I added the template to the outlines listed in [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Outline_of_knowledge/get_to_work]] as ''Unfinished outlines''. If that meant something else then I'm sorry. --[[User:Stefan|Stefan]] [[User_talk:Stefan|<sup>talk</sup>]] 01:26, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
A hatnote is a message at the very top of a page.  The hatnotes I was referring to were these, about the incompleteness of the page:

{{tl|expand outline}}

It's unnecessary clutter.  And it implies that someday we'll be able to say with authority when the list is complete.  But we never will be able to, because it is a summary, and summaries are by definition incomplete:  summaries don't include everything, which is why they're called "summaries".  

"Complete summary" is an [[oxymoron]].

And by extension, so is "incomplete summary".  A summary can be as long or as short as desired.  You can summarize something in a single word.

'''''[[User talk:The Transhumanist|<span style="color:#880088;">Th</span><span style="color:#0000FF;">e Tr</span><span style="color:#449900;">ans</span><span style="color:#DD9922;">hu</span><span style="color:#DD4400;">man</span><span style="color:#BB0000;">ist</span>&nbsp;&nbsp;]]''''' 18:40, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
::OK, very confused, though YOU asked for a template like that and I did that, but nevermind. I cleared the text so it is now an invisible template, I have not removed it from the outlines that are beeing worked on, so the category still works. --[[User:Stefan|Stefan]] [[User_talk:Stefan|<sup>talk</sup>]] 00:46, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

::: I did?  I don't remember.  I think I need a wikibreak.  :)  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  17:42, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

==Finished outline review==
After months of working on it, I feel that the [[Outline of forestry]] has finally been completed, and is awaiting your review as is requested on the WP:OOK page. [[User:Minnecologies|Minnecologies]] ([[User talk:Minnecologies|talk]]) 03:30, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

: I've posted my reply to [[Talk:Outline of forestry#Finished outline review]].  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  19:25, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

== [[WP:TIP]] ==

Hey! Check out the new tips (I corrected some and created some others)! What you think?<br>By the way... I think you shoul use (if you desire so) a [[Template:Shoutbox|shoutbox]]! And I say that because I see your talk page is getting huge <small>(comments like the [[User talk:The Transhumanist#Finished outline review|previous one avobe]] can be placed inside it)</small>. - [[User:Damërung|<font color="#FFDB58" size="3" face="Matura MT Script Capitals">Damërung</font>]] [[User talk:Damërung|<sup><small><small><font color="#FF2400">'''...ÏìíÏ...'''</font></small></small></sup>]][[Special:Contributions/Damërung|<sub><font color="#A7FC00">_<sub><small><small><font size="1pt">Ξ</font></small></small></sub>_</font></sub>]]  <font color="ff0000">     [[User:Damërung/Secret|.]]</font>  -- &nbsp;<small>19:03, 29 June 2009 (UTC)</small>

== Sent ==

–'''[[User:Juliancolton|<span style="font-family:Script MT;color:#36648B">Juliancolton</span>]]'''&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;[[User_talk:Juliancolton|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:gray">''Talk''</span></sup>]] 20:18, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

: Thank you. 

: And congrats on bot approval. [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  20:53, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

== Tomato ==

Maybe [[User:Tomatoproducts]] might work on an OOK for tomatoes. ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich]] [[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]'', 20:56, 29 June 2009 (UTC).
: OK, I've sent him a request.  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  21:15, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

== [[List of skin-related conditions]] ==

Hi. Would you consider the above an outline? It's a well done list, but it seems to be little more than a well-written lead and a list of links. Let me know what you think, or comment at [[Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of skin-related conditions/archive1]]. Cheers, [[User:Dabomb87|Dabomb87]] ([[User talk:Dabomb87|talk]]) 01:14, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

: Gross!

: Well, it's 2-levels deep (2 levels below the title).  That qualifies as an outline.  Though as a branch of [[WP:2|OOK]], it skips a couple intermediary branches (that is, they're missing): [[Outline of dermatology]], which in turn is a branch of [[Outline of skin]] (but dermatology is also a branch of [[Outline of medicine]], which we do have).  And somewhere in there is [[Outline of disease]].

: By the way, why is it called "skin-related conditions" and not "skin conditions"? 

: [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  01:43, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

: P.S.: have you joined [[WP:WPOOK]] yet?

==outline notice==
I'd like to receive a link, not the full notices. Manageable? '''[[User:DGG|DGG]]''' ([[User talk:DGG|talk]]) 04:44, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
: Yup.  {{done}} [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  21:32, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

== Government section task ==

OK, I'll start them, don't know when I'll be able to have them finished though <font face="Batik Regular">''[[User:Highfields|Highfields]]'' ([[User talk:Highfields|talk]], [[Special:Contributions/Highfields|contribs]], [[Wikipedia:Editor review/Highfields|review]])</font> 17:23, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

== Ook? ==

Just make sure [[Librarian (Discworld)|you're not calling someone a monkey]]!

I'm ambivalent.  I'm a strong believer in outlining when it comes to writing or organising knowledge, but I tend to stray from my beliefs.  I've been staring at the main T&T article for about 4 years now thinking "I need to re-write that", and I realised about a year ago that the best way to do that was from the bottom up - write the daughter articles first, and use them to organise the main article.  And having come to that conclusion, I've been writing articles about plants :) Just looked at [[Outline of botany]]...wow, does that need work.  And [[outline of ecology]] is as jumbled as the ecology article is.  Maybe if I started with a good outline... :)

Oh, wait.  Is that intentional? Outline of knowledge...librarian... ''ook!''  If that was intentional - I am truly impressed.  And if it wasn't - then it's still the coolest (b)acronym ever, and you most definitely should claim that it ''was'' intentional.  [[User:Guettarda|Guettarda]] ([[User talk:Guettarda|talk]]) 19:33, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

: I don't remember who used OOK first.  We just got tired of writing "Outline of knowledge" all the time, and it's the obvious [[WP:shortcut]]. [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  19:52, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

== Reminder: totd ==

* ''reset yearless year totds''
* fix cats for 2006 totds
* recat 2007, 2008, 2009

== Outline of Taiwan ==

Could you explain your reasoning for reverting my edits to [[Outline of Taiwan]]? --[[User:Cybercobra|Cybercobra]] ([[User talk:Cybercobra|talk]]) 18:34, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

: This outline is one of a set of outlines on every country of the world.  They share a standard format to make comparison between countries easy.  If you remove the country names from headings and links from all of these outlines, then it becomes very difficult to tell which country you are looking at, especially if you are switching back and forth between them or browsing many countries.  For this reason, all the country outlines include the country's name in their subheadings.  It's been this way since these pages were created over a year ago.  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  18:48, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
::That doesn't quite agree with [[WP:MOSHEAD]]: "Section names should not explicitly refer to the subject of the article, or to higher-level headings, unless doing so is shorter or clearer. For example, 'Early life' is preferable to 'His early life' when 'His' means the subject of the article; headings can be assumed to be about the subject unless otherwise indicated." --[[User:Cybercobra|Cybercobra]] ([[User talk:Cybercobra|talk]]) 18:56, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
::: Yes, it does agree with MOSHEAD, because it makes the pages clearer.  The country outlines aren't regular articles, they're lists, designed to be used with other lists in which the sections and even the facts are presented in the same order.  A typical method of comparing countries using these lists is to open two or more windows (or tabs), each displaying a different country, and then switch back and forth.  Without the name prominently displayed throughout the material, it is very easy to get the countries confused.  And when you're flipping through multiple windows, it's easier to see the subheadings than the smaller text between them.
::: Even if MOSHEAD didn't have the "clearer" exception, Wikipedia policy prominently provides one: [[WP:IGNORE]].  I believe that [[Wikipedia:What "Ignore all rules" means]] sums it up the best: "Don't follow written instructions mindlessly, but rather, consider how the encyclopedia is improved or damaged by each edit."
::: [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  15:44, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
:::: I still philosophically oppose on repetitiveness grounds, but I won't reassert my edits again. --[[User:Cybercobra|Cybercobra]] ([[User talk:Cybercobra|talk]]) 17:12, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

== Redlink in a Hatnote ==

It looks strange to have a hatnote for an article that doesn't exist yet. "[[Index of visual arts-related articles]]" is not in requested articles and nothing even links[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Index_of_visual_arts-related_articles] to it yet. Is there a guideline that determines when an "index of" article should be created? --[[User:George100|George100]] ([[User talk:George100|talk]]) 19:12, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

== AAAH! ==

I'm very sorry, I feel so lame not being around...;). I didn't know It had come so far so fast!! Anything Big I can do? '''at'''[[User talk:astatine-210|-210]]  <small><sup>''[[Special:Contributions/Astatine-210|discovered elements]] ∞ [[astatine|what am I?]]''</sup></small> 17:27, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

==WikiProject Outreach==
As suggested and requested, I've contacted the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America|Indigenous peoples of North America]] & [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/United States military history task force|US military history]] wikiprojects for help on working on the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Outline of knowledge/Drafts/Outline of the American Indian Wars|American Indian Wars Outline]] (as well as all of the other American wars to the US military history). I also created this [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Outline of knowledge/WikiProject outreach|page]] in order to coordinate wikiproject outreach efforts- as I tried to explain in the intro it would be very advantageous for the WP:OOK to try to garner support and work from an outline's pertinent wikiproject or task force. Do with or link to at will. [[User:Minnecologies|Minnecologies]] ([[User talk:Minnecologies|talk]]) 22:46, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

: Sorry for the delay, I took a much needed break over the weekend; and today, I've been fighting a war all day.  

: I've been taking a slightly different approach.  See [[Wikipedia:WikiProject France]].  But there's nothing wrong with having multiple approaches.  Keep up the good work.

: Should [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Outline of knowledge/WikiProject outreach]] be mentioned on [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Outline of knowledge/Outreach]]?  If so, I'll let you do the honors.

: I'll take a closer look at your postings, and will provide further feedback.  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  02:51, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

== URGENT: [[User:Dbachmann]] ==

This is probably canvassing but I don't intend it to be, [[User:Dbachmann|Dbachmann]] has been moving outlines such as Kosovo and Switzerland into the portal space from the mainspace, I have reverted these but what I actually thought you would be interested in is the 'vandalism' to [[Wikipedia:Outlines]] and [[:Category:Outlines]] and his/her comments at [[Wikipedia talk:Outlines]]. As for the first 2, I don't feel confident reverting his/her edits and I wondered if you could. As for the third (almost certainly canvassing), I want to reply by countering the [[WP:CFORK]] argument, what reasons other than the obvious are there? Thank You. <font face="Batik Regular">''[[User:Highfields|Highfields]]'' ([[User talk:Highfields|talk]], [[Special:Contributions/Highfields|contribs]], [[Wikipedia:Editor review/Highfields|review]])</font> 11:18, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
*I have reverted the [[:Category:Outlines]] edits but can you deal with the [[Wikipedia:Outlines]] which, beyond expressing an opinion, is vandalism through and through. <font face="Batik Regular">''[[User:Highfields|Highfields]]'' ([[User talk:Highfields|talk]], [[Special:Contributions/Highfields|contribs]], [[Wikipedia:Editor review/Highfields|review]])</font> 11:20, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
*Also, I dare not revert the move of [[Outline of Kosovo]] for fear of getting into an edit war with [[User:Dbachmann|Dbachmann]] or breaking the [[WP:3RR]]

:: Your contacting me was not unsolicited, and therefore not canvassing.  It is well known that I wish to be contacted concerning outlines.  But I will post statements on my user page and talk page making it even more clear.  Also, bringing a problem to the attention of an administrator, WikiProject coordinator, or an experienced editor for help is not considered canvassing.  

:: Never be afraid of reverting vandalism.  [[WP:3RR]] does not apply to vandalism.  But Dbachmann's edits, while being highly opinionated and bold, were not vandalism.  However they were disruptive - see [[Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines#Changes to guideline and policy pages]]. If he continues in this way, we'll need to bring the matter before [[WP:ANI]].  

:: Also, keep in mind that [[WP:3RR]] applies to edits on a single page.  You can revert hundreds of times a day if the reverts are on different pages and they are legitimate reverts (that is, not vandalism).

:: To improve your ability and confidence in confrontations and discussions with opposing editors concerning outlines, you should familiarize yourself with the relevant guidelines, especially [[WP:LISTS]], [[WP:STAND]], [[WP:OUTLINE]], and [[WP:CLN]].  

:: But even more important, you should be familiar with previous discussions (conflicts) related to outlines.  They can be found at [[WP:OOKDISC]].

:: [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  18:37, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

*:FYI the matter [[Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#.22Outlines.22|was indeed brought to ANI]], though it was malplaced and has already been closed. As your name is mentioned, I thought you should be advised. –[[user:xeno|<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b>]][[user talk:xeno|<sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk</sup>]] 21:00, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

== Re: Copy paste moves ==

{{done}}. Hopefully there aren't any residual deleted revisions lying around... –'''[[User:Juliancolton|<span style="font-family:Script MT;color:#36648B">Juliancolton</span>]]'''&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;[[User_talk:Juliancolton|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:gray">''Talk''</span></sup>]] 19:09, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

== WPOOK list ==

Can you please remove me from the newsletter sendlist?  Thanks very much. Best, '''[[User talk:Garden|<font style="color:#9999CC;">weburiedoursecretsinthe</font><font style="color:#000099;">garden</font>]]''' 20:54, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
: {{done}} [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  23:11, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

== Re: Move request ==

Well, have you discussed it with the user who preformed the move? It's probably not a good idea for me to simply revert in this case. –'''[[User:Juliancolton|<span style="font-family:Script MT;color:#36648B">Juliancolton</span>]]'''&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;[[User_talk:Juliancolton|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:gray">''Talk''</span></sup>]] 01:30, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

== OOK ==

''You handled the Dbachmann situation very nicely.  You were rational and diplomatic.  You'll make a great administrator.''

You don't know how much that means to me, in all aspects of Wikipedia I try to be civil and diplomatic and where possible make reasonable compromise. And by the way, I think you'd make an even better admin although I guess your too busy with us lot at [[WP:WPOOK]] at the moment.

As for your points and questions, I don't use Linky but I shall certainly have a look at the links you posted for me. Indeed I did find it problomatic reverting the moves, sorry about the copy-paste moves, I'll remember to get an admin next time. I also looked through the relevant policies and past discussions at the time and found them extremely useful in countering Dbachmann's arguments, especially the latter. 

Thanks for the help.
<font face="Batik Regular">''[[User:Highfields|Highfields]]'' ([[User talk:Highfields|talk]], [[Special:Contributions/Highfields|contribs]], [[Wikipedia:Editor review/Highfields|review]])</font> 14:38, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

: You are welcome.

: By the way, you don't need an admin to revert moves.  You can move a page back to its original location as long as there's only a redirect there that points to the page you are moving.  

: Sometimes an editor will be tricky and find an excuse to edit the redirect (once there's more than a single edit in the edit history, you can't move a page over the page), and then you'll need an admin to make the move.  

: [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  16:25, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

::Right, I didn't know that, I'll try it next time... <font face="Batik Regular">''[[User:Highfields|Highfields]]'' ([[User talk:Highfields|talk]], [[Special:Contributions/Highfields|contribs]], [[Wikipedia:Editor review/Highfields|review]])</font> 16:28, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

== OOK - Where to start? ==

Hey. I'm eager to help with regards to OOK, but I'm not entirely sure where I should start and where I should contribute. I've read through the main pages but I'm not sure what is appropriate for inclusion in an outline and indeed what is appropriate to make outlines for! Any help would be appreciated... -- [[User:Quantum Zeno|<span style="color: darkblue; font-size: 0.9em; font-family: Garamond, serif;">QUANTUM</span>]] '''[[User talk:Quantum Zeno|<span style="font-size: 0.9em; color: purple; font-family: Garamond, serif;">ZENO</span>]]''' 18:40, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

: The best place to start is with small standard edits to lots of outlines.  

: I have just the task for you...

: In the sections listed at [[User:The Transhumanist/List of country outline government sections]], check the "Form of government:" item.  If it is empty, see if you can fill it in.  The type of government is usually presented in the lead paragraph of [[Politics of x]] (where x is the country's name).  A link to the "Politics of" article is included at the top of the section.

: I've finished down through the I's.  So start at Jamaica and work your way down the list.

: You will find the above task much faster if you use [[Firefox]] and [[WP:LINKY|Linky]].  They're both free.  Let me know when you have them installed.

: Thank you.

: Good luck.

: Have fun!

: [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  22:43, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

== OOK ==

Looking over the Country ones, I do find "The Arts in X" section titles to be a bit clunky. I would replace with either just "Art in X" or "Fine arts in X", something that gets rid of "the". --[[User:Cybercobra|Cybercobra]] ([[User talk:Cybercobra|talk]]) 08:02, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

: Good idea.  Thank you.  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  16:32, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

: The task has been assigned.  Should be done in a day or two.  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  23:28, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

: A-K done. The rest should be done soon.  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  01:54, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

== OOK 2 ==

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outline_of_physics#Where_to_start Physics - Where to start] seems rather casual and unprofessional, in both title and content. --[[User:Cybercobra|Cybercobra]] ([[User talk:Cybercobra|talk]]) 21:58, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

: {{done}} - outline's lead replaced, section remove, picture moved.  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  22:12, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outline_of_religion#Secular.2Firreligious.2Fagnostic.2Fatheist.2Fantitheistic.2Fantireligious_topics - I think it's a great oversimplification to group all those together. Some of them can certainly be grouped, but not all. --[[User:Cybercobra|Cybercobra]] ([[User talk:Cybercobra|talk]]) 22:03, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
: {{done}} - I've replaced the subheading with "Irreligion", and pulled the links in from the [[irreligion]] article's lead paragraph.  Is that article's description accurate?  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  22:20, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
::Much better. I removed deism though, as that's more a conception of God than an anti-religious or secular view. --[[User:Cybercobra|Cybercobra]] ([[User talk:Cybercobra|talk]]) 22:27, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

::: Thank you.

Perhaps the [[List of supercontinents|supercontinents]] should be listed on [[Outline of geography]]? At the least, [[Afroeurasia]] should be included. --[[User:Cybercobra|Cybercobra]] ([[User talk:Cybercobra|talk]]) 22:43, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
: {{done}} - added supercontinents section with main link to [[List of supercontinents]], added lead paragraph, moved animated pic to new section.

Probably obvious, but [[Outline of World War I]] is MIA. --[[User:Cybercobra|Cybercobra]] ([[User talk:Cybercobra|talk]]) 22:51, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
: We've made a start on it here: [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Outline of knowledge/Drafts/Outline of World War I]].  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  22:58, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Is there any guidance on using "proper" lists vs. "dashed" lists, or is it arbitrary? e.g.
*[[A]]
*[[B]]
*[[C]]
vs.

[[A]] – [[B]] – [[C]]

Also, I'm watching your talkpage, so no need to ping back on my talkpage for your replies. :) --[[User:Cybercobra|Cybercobra]] ([[User talk:Cybercobra|talk]]) 23:07, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

: The dashed lists are a hold-over from when these outlines were just "topic lists".  We haven't committed fully to the indented bulleted format yet, but [[User talk:Quiddity#Are these ready to be linked to via hatnotes?|Quiddity is pushing us in that direction]].  The current guideline is [[Wikipedia:Outlines#Hierarchical structure]].  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  23:24, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Circling back to our earlier discussion, would you object to removing the duplication of the topic from the section titles of outlines like [[Outline of mathematics]], [[Outline of chocolate]], etc. that are unlikely to be compared to other outlines (compared to the country outlines)? --[[User:Cybercobra|Cybercobra]] ([[User talk:Cybercobra|talk]]) 01:03, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
: I don't know.  We should do a test run on some of the drafts, and see if it affects usability.  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  01:09, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

You may or may not care about [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Outline_of_chocolate&diff=300918327&oldid=300915073 this]. --[[User:Cybercobra|Cybercobra]] ([[User talk:Cybercobra|talk]]) 02:48, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

: My reaction to the image was a vague [[cognitive dissonance]].  I'm happy you removed it.  But where else is that image displayed?  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  02:56, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
::I didn't remove it, it was another editor. I just happened to have edited the article prior to that edit and noticed it. --[[User:Cybercobra|Cybercobra]] ([[User talk:Cybercobra|talk]]) 03:18, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
::: It presented claims that were unsourced.  Also, it had no linkage to corresponding articles on Wikipedia so that readers could follow the threads of interest.  It also looked like a plug from a chocalate manufacturer (potential spam, probably the source of my cognitive dissonance: leaving it in when it seemed dubious).  I hope somebody follows up on those claims for sources - I just don't have time.  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  03:27, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

==re:list==
The lead is a word-for-word transcription of the article's title, so of course it is on topic. Blacks and Africans includes all [[black people|blacks]] and all inhabitants of [[Africa]], respectively. And this is precisely why the list is up for deletion: it is way too broad and subjective. Perhaps deletion isn't such a bad thing either. What should have been created in the first place was two separate lists: one for Africans & one for blacks. This way, there would have been no opportunity for confusion as to which refers to what ex. whether the North African caliphates are "black" or just "African". [[User:Soupforone|Soupforone]] ([[User talk:Soupforone|talk]]) 23:09, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
::actually, though I have been defending the article, I agree completely that it should be split in this manner, and for the reasons Soupforone gives. '''[[User:DGG|DGG]]''' ([[User talk:DGG|talk]]) 20:24, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

== OOK group ==

Hi Transhumanist. I'd like to be removed from your list of participants in the OOK editor group (and the "mailing list"). I'm focused on other things right now, and I'm not particularly interested at the moment. Thanks. [[User:Timmeh|<span style="color:darkred;font:bold 10pt kristen itc">Tim</span>]][[User talk:Timmeh|<span style="color:black;font:bold 10pt kristen itc">meh</span>]] 03:40, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
: No problemo.  {{done}} [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  17:24, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

== Index of World War II articles ==

I've started a discussion about articles you created at [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Index#Index of World War II articles]]. [[User:Fram|Fram]] ([[User talk:Fram|talk]]) 12:13, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

==Re: OOK - Where to start?==

I haven't yet used Linky, as I've been using a friend's Internet connection (she uses IE) until now. I'm using my own now and I will see what I can do. --[[User:Quantum Zeno|<span style="color: darkblue; font-size: 0.9em; font-family: Garamond, serif;">QUANTUM</span>]] '''[[User talk:Quantum Zeno|<span style="font-size: 0.9em; color: purple; font-family: Garamond, serif;">ZENO</span>]]''' 17:11, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

== Outline examples ==

Hey. I know that [[Outline of anarchism]] has been "vetted/checked/endorsed" to a certain extent by [[User:Skomorokh]] who has a known expertise in the topic (has written a few [[User:Skomorokh/iconstasis|GA articles concerning it]]). I was wondering if we had similar evidence that any of the other outlines we're using as "Best of" examples (specifically Outline of cell biology, Outline of forestry, Outline of Japan, and Outline of geography), have been checked/vetted by experts in the field being outlined? (reply here) Thanks :) -- [[User:Quiddity|Quiddity]] ([[User talk:Quiddity|talk]]) 20:36, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

: I wouldn't call who's checked an article any kind of evidence of an article's quality.  See [[Argument to the person]].

: Instead, we need objective criteria of what constitutes outline quality, especially with respect to the accuracy of content.  Of course, this brings us right to Wikipedia's core content policies, [[WP:VER|verifiability]] being the most relevant.  

: [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  21:01, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

::Yes, obviously (and more specifically [[Argument from authority]]). 
::And also [[WP:EXPERT]] (+[[Wikipedia:Expert editors/New draft|rewrite]]) and [[Wikipedia:Anti-elitism]]. 
::However, [[Expert]] and {{tl|Expert-subject}} and {{tl|ExpertContribution}}.
::!

::Regarding my specific question though: Should I take your answer as an implicit "No, I'm not aware of any other experts/wikiprojects as having checked/vetted/verified/''sourced/referenced''/endorsed these other outlines, that we use as "Best of" examples (and that appear to our amateur eyes to be [mostly] complete)" ? 
::(For context: I'm writing some notes on the outlines, for introducing the concept to people who may not be aware of them, or at least of how extensive they are. I'm trying to determine just how emphatically I/we can state that "These are the BEST examples"... ) Thanks. -- [[User:Quiddity|Quiddity]] ([[User talk:Quiddity|talk]]) 21:42, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

::: Well, you could compare them with course outlines on the same subjects.  Or with the corresponding branches of the Dewey, LCC, and Propaedia.  The TOCs of major textbooks in the relevant field would probably also bear some similarity.  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  21:50, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
::::I know what else they can be compared to, we've both written reams of information about that already in discussion, and the ookdir points to dozens more.
::::Thank you for replying, but, you still haven't answered my initial question! I'll take your reluctance to directly answer it as confirmation of my assumption above. Thanks anyway. I'll let you know if I stumble upon any evidence myself. -- [[User:Quiddity|Quiddity]] ([[User talk:Quiddity|talk]]) 22:32, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

::::: Take it as [[cognitive dissonance]] to your approach.  My guess is that Minnecologies is schooled in forestry, though I doubt that qualifies him as an "expert".  GA writing certainly doesn't quality an editor as an expert.  Earthdirt is well-written on Wikipedia (see his user page), though I don't know if he has any GAs or FAs.  My guess is he's well-schooled in the subject though.  I don't know any (verified) experts on Wikipedia, since virtually all of them are anonymous (pseudonymed) and there is no easy way of checking their real life academic and scholarly achievements.  My suggestion would be to visit the nearest university and see if you could get professors to assign their students to critiquing or developing these outlines as part of their coursework.  :)  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  23:06, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

::::: I've sent a [[User talk:John Smith's#Outline of Japan|message to John Smith's concerning the Outline of Japan]].  I hope he doesn't try to AfD it.  :)  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  23:25, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

== WPinas by number of edits ==

Was updated 1st July.  ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich]] [[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]'', 20:40, 13 July 2009 (UTC).
:OK I'll write some perl, should take a few minutes to write. D/l-ing 10 gig is not  quick though. ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich]] [[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]'', 20:51, 13 July 2009 (UTC).
::[[User:Rich Farmbrough/temp16]] - quick and dirty - place holders not doen , bots by name only. ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich]] [[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]'', 02:01, 15 July 2009 (UTC).
::: That should do the trick. Thank you. [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  02:13, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
:My average is about 100 a day, but that includes many repetitive tasks with AWB, simple javascript assisted edits (like fixing caps in headers),  and some vandal fighting with Huggle. ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich]] [[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]'', 03:39, 15 July 2009 (UTC).
8th June to 8th July. ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich]] [[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]'', 16:41, 15 July 2009 (UTC).
:the meta-stub-history is a different file (10 G expands to 80) but there is a pagename file. Let me look.  ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich]] [[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]'', 18:00, 15 July 2009 (UTC).

== Government sections ==

I have, as you requested, attempted to complete the government sections for the outlines begining with H plus a few more. However, some, such as the more obscure places and the sub-national entities, were very difficult, so I was wondering if you could look at them and see what else needs doing on them.
*[[Outline of Liechtenstein#Government and politics of Liechtenstein]]
*[[Outline of the Faroe Islands#Government and politics of the Faroe Islands]]
*[[Outline of Kosovo#Government and politics of Kosovo]]
*[[Outline of Haiti#Government and politics of Haiti]]
*[[Outline of Hong Kong#Government and politics of Hong Kong]]
*[[Outline of Honduras#Government and politics of Honduras]]
*[[Outline of Hungary#Government and politics of Hungary]]
I know they are not done yet and I fully intend to continue with them but for most there is nothing to put in!
<font face="Batik Regular">''[[User:Highfields|Highfields]]'' ([[User talk:Highfields|talk]], [[Special:Contributions/Highfields|contribs]], [[Wikipedia:Editor review/Highfields|review]])</font> 13:24, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

: Thank you for working on these.  I'll gladly take a look...  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  16:58, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

: If you can find the names for the various entities, add links to them, even if they turn red.  Because of the way Wikipedia expands, they would probably turn blue eventually. [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  22:38, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

== Life extension or anti-aging medicine? ==
You've reverted my page move without discussion...while accusing me of moving the page without discussion. I at least made a note on the article's talk page, to no objection from anyone in over two weeks. Please discuss your reasons for the move at [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Life_extension#Page_move_without_discussion.3F the talk page].

In addition, I find your use of fact tags rather selective and uncalled-for. For one, because the lead of an article often remains unreferenced for cosmetic reasons: the info in the lead should be repeated and expanded upon in the article, where it should be well-referenced, so the reference is not needed in the lead. For another, because you've placed fact tags next to my statements, while making unsourced statements of your own. Biogerontology, strictly speaking, is the study of the biological processes of aging. It is not necessarily "life extension." Indeed, to my knowledge, no biogerontologist has ever extended anyone's lifespan. Yet you equate "life extension" with "biogerontology" without any reference. I'm interested to hear your reasons for these edits. Thanks, [[User:Keepcalmandcarryon|Keepcalmandcarryon]] ([[User talk:Keepcalmandcarryon|talk]]) 19:15, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

== SiteDelta ==

I know you stress everyone to watch the ook pages but they're reluctant to do so because they don't want to clutter their watchlists. If they are told about the addon, SiteDelta, then they may change their minds. I've written a guide here [[User:Penubag/SiteDelta ]] but it's not very good. Anyone can really find out how to use it on their own so it's not really a problem. What do you say? --[[User:penubag|'''<span style="background:#00CCFF;color:#0066FF;font-size:84%">&nbsp;penubag&nbsp;</span>''']] ([[User talk:penubag|talk]]) 09:18, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

: Or go to [[WP:OOKRC]] and click on '''Related changes''' in Wikipedia's sidebar menu.

: The tutorial is {{done}}

: But how do you load 1000 Wikipedia pages (plus their talk pages) into SiteDelta all at once?

: [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  19:40, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

::Nice work on the tutorial, sorry I wasn't very comprehensive this time. Regarding questions, presently, there is no way to load a 1000 pages at once without visiting them individually. I'll ask the developer what he can do. To answer your Q on the talkpage, I've discussed a few issues with the developer which he fixed. The beta works fine, but the reason he doesn't upload this version onto the Firefox addons site is because he needs to contact the people he uses to translate SiteDelta. The new features only work in the English and German version and not the other languages which is why it's marked beta. --[[User:penubag|'''<span style="background:#00CCFF;color:#0066FF;font-size:84%">&nbsp;penubag&nbsp;</span>''']] ([[User talk:penubag|talk]]) 09:24, 18 July 2009 (UTC)<br>
::Oh and a quick random tip about proxies. If you type <tt>.6a.nl</tt> after the address domain <nowiki>(http://</nowiki>www.example.org.6a.nl/subpage), you should also bypass the filter. I've found this to be quicker than going to a proxy site to enter in the URL. One thing about this is that it doesn't have a 100% success rate but it's worth a try, also, this method  has all the side effects of a proxy because it is one :) --[[User:penubag|'''<span style="background:#00CCFF;color:#0066FF;font-size:84%">&nbsp;penubag&nbsp;</span>''']] ([[User talk:penubag|talk]]) 09:24, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
::Your voice will probably be stronger to the developer than mine since I already asked so much. If he heard someone else, he may consider. Want to email him? email: sitedelta[at]schierla.de --[[User:penubag|'''<span style="background:#00CCFF;color:#0066FF;font-size:84%">&nbsp;penubag&nbsp;</span>''']] ([[User talk:penubag|talk]]) 07:26, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

== [[Template:Lotd scroll]] ==

Hi, we have a pretty major problem with this page, in that it is transcluding the whole of a list, including its non-free content. Regardless of the merits of transcluding the whole list, this use of non-free content outside of the article space is not acceptable- would it be possible to amend the template so that it does not show the non-free images? [[User:J Milburn|J Milburn]] ([[User talk:J Milburn|talk]]) 14:03, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

: {{done}} - Inclusion tags are cool:
:* '''<nowiki><onlyinclude>portion of page</onlyinclude></nowiki>''' transcludes only the portion of the page between the tags, and no other part of the page.
:*  '''<nowiki><includeonly>portion of page</includeonly></nowiki>''' hides a portion of the page itself, but displays that portion when the page is transcluded (that is, ''only'' when the page is transcluded).
:* '''<nowiki><noinclude>portion of page</noinclude></nowiki>''' disallows a portion of the page from being transcluded. It shows up on the page itself, but it won't be displayed in transclusions.

: For each of the above, "portion of page" can be as much or as little of the page as you want.  Whatever is between the tags.

: The includeonly and noinclude tags can be [[Nesting (computing)|nested]] within includeonly tags.

: Of course, none of this will make any sense unless you know what "[[Wikipedia:Transclusion|transclusion]]" is. ;)

[[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  18:40, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
:So you've gone through the articles and added noinclude around each of the non-free images? Or have I misunderstood? [[User:J Milburn|J Milburn]] ([[User talk:J Milburn|talk]]) 20:48, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

:: No, I thought you were referring to today's entry only.  I fixed that.  Sorry for the confusion.  Good luck with the rest.  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  21:10, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
:::Well, yeah, that's the thing. The use of this template in this manner leads to obvious problems, because so many featured lists have NFC. There's gonna need to be a wider scale solution. [[User:J Milburn|J Milburn]] ([[User talk:J Milburn|talk]]) 21:13, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

:::: All you need to do is join the department, and edit one list per day, so the images don't show up on the template.  (Tomorrow is almost here!)  In case you have an emergency, you should do a few days in advance.  That approach is not much different than the preparation of the subpages for the [[WP:POTD]] department.  Or you could prepare subpages, like in POTD - I did that for a few months, until someone was willing to take over for me.  Or you could form a team, and change all the lists for the upcoming year.  I did that for the [[WP:TOTD]] project  - the team created enough tips to display for a whole year.  Have fun!  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  21:24, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
:::::I hate to say this, but I really don't want to be doing that. This is your baby, it's really up to you to make sure that you aren't transcluding non-free content... Surely, there must be a way around this other than manual removal? [[User:J Milburn|J Milburn]] ([[User talk:J Milburn|talk]]) 21:34, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
:::::: Well, even though I would like to jump in on another big clean up job, I don't have the time.  I'm coordinating a very big WikiProject, and I can barely keep up with that.  I would suggest that you nominate the template for deletion.  That will catch the attention of everyone who wants to keep it.  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  21:45, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

: Taking another look, the only place it transcludes to is here: [[Wikipedia:Main Page alternative (TFL)]], which is a version of the main page.  The main page includes copies of non-free content, so I don't see this as a problem.  As long as the template isn't transcluded anywhere else, and since it hasn't been transcluded anywhere else since it was created, there's really nothing to worry about.  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  21:57, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
::It also appears on the template itself, which is not allowed. The main page does ''not'' include NFC (ever) and even if it did, it would not extend to this page. There definitely is something to worry about. [[User:J Milburn|J Milburn]] ([[User talk:J Milburn|talk]]) 22:02, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

::: Then nuke it.  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  22:05, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

== Talkback ==

{{talkback|Gimme danger}}
[[User:Gimme danger|Gimme danger]] ([[User talk:Gimme danger|talk]]) 04:01, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

== Indices ==

{{talkback|Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Index}} --[[User:Cybercobra|Cybercobra]] ([[User talk:Cybercobra|talk]]) 20:05, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
:You might want to write a [[Wikipedia:Why do we have indexes in addition to...?]] then. --[[User:Cybercobra|Cybercobra]] ([[User talk:Cybercobra|talk]]) 00:23, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

:: Good idea.  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  23:51, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

== [[Wikipedia talk:Why do we have outlines in addition to...?]] ==

I've left a comment here. I'm really not seeing the point of these outlines, and I am looking for an explanation. [[User:J Milburn|J Milburn]] ([[User talk:J Milburn|talk]]) 21:22, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

: Thank you for the heads up.  I've replied there.  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  23:49, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

== [[Outline of oceanography]] ==

Just came across this immediately after leaving you a comment above. Please do not create redirects from the mainspace to the Wikipedia space, userspace or any other space. The mainspace is for articles, not for project issues. [[User:J Milburn|J Milburn]] ([[User talk:J Milburn|talk]]) 21:25, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

: The redirect was created automatically when I moved the article from the main namespace (it wasn't ready for prime time).  :)  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  23:41, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

== [[Wikipedia:Templates for deletion|Templates for deletion]] nomination of [[:Template:{{ucfirst:Lotd scroll}}]] ==
[[File:Nuvola_apps_important.svg|30px]][[Template:{{ucfirst:Lotd scroll}}]] has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at [[Wikipedia:Templates for deletion#Template:{{ucfirst:Lotd scroll}}|the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page]]. Thank you.<!--Template:Tfdnotice--> [[User:J Milburn|J Milburn]] ([[User talk:J Milburn|talk]]) 21:30, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
: Thank you. [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  02:50, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

== [[Outline of Palestine]] ==
{{User|uriber}} has nominated it for deletion. As the creator, I thought you might like to know. [[User:Tiamut|<b><span style="color:#B93B8F;">T</span><span style="color:#800000;">i</span><span style="color:#B93B8F;">a</span><span style="color:#800000;">m</span><span style="color:#B93B8F;">u</span><span style="color:#800000;">t</span></b>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Tiamut|talk]]</sup> 22:27, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

: I do!  Thank you for the heads up. [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  02:50, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

::No problem, and thank you for creating it. I haven't had time to get into its development, but its very close to the top of my list and I hope to get to it soon. [[User:Tiamut|<b><span style="color:#B93B8F;">T</span><span style="color:#800000;">i</span><span style="color:#B93B8F;">a</span><span style="color:#800000;">m</span><span style="color:#B93B8F;">u</span><span style="color:#800000;">t</span></b>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Tiamut|talk]]</sup> 12:22, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

== wp:ook ==

On [[wp:ook]] the Health section and the People and Self section are very short but are pretty much the same. Can those topics be renamed and merged? --[[User:penubag|'''<span style="background:#00CCFF;color:#0066FF;font-size:84%">&nbsp;penubag&nbsp;</span>''']] ([[User talk:penubag|talk]]) 07:23, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
: Preferably not.  The people section will be one of the largest sections!  In the encyclopedia, there are hundreds of outlines of various types of people.  We simply haven't worked on that section much yet because we chose to work on Geography instead, for various reasons.  The people section is slated for major development further down the road.  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  02:29, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

== Outline banner problems ==

The pages in [[:Category:Outline banners with bad inputs]] need fixing. The banner template is without docs, otherwise I'd just fix the instances myself. --[[User:Cybercobra|Cybercobra]] ([[User talk:Cybercobra|talk]]) 00:02, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
: Thank you for the heads up.  I'll fix them when I get to a faster connection - the server at this site is slooooow.  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  02:29, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

: {{done}} [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  23:30, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

== Checking over stuff I done  ==

I finally bit the bullet and looked over [[Outline of Djibouti#Government and politics of Djibouti]]. I was quite unsure of what to do, so I wanted to make sure I didn't mess up before tackling any others. 

I also finished the [[User talk:Gimme danger#Hi WikiGnome!|index task]] that you asked me to do, everything except [[Honduras]], which is still locked. I also started [[Index of Benin-related articles]] and want to see what you thought of that. (It's still very much a work in progress, I just wasn't expecting the work to take so long.) --[[User:Gimme danger|Gimme danger]] ([[User talk:Gimme danger|talk]]) 07:26, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

: You got a lot done.  Thank you for jumping in.  

: For the outline, if you can't find the missing topics on Wikipedia, use Google.  I've added in the cabinet and the ministries (See [[Outline of Japan#Executive branch of the government of Japan]] for a good example).  I'll let you finish the judiciary branch.  (Hint: look for "Judiciary of", "Court system of", "Judicial system of", and "Legal system of").

: The index task revealed an unforeseen problem, but your updating of the links was the important thing (keep up the excellent work), and provides me with a good place to start my next task.

: I've touched up the [[Index of Benin-related articles]].  I added a short lead to help identify the subject of the index, and added a references section to handle the reference that's in the lead, then I moved the lists to their own section at the end, and then I configured the CompactTOC8 template using parameters (setting its look, and making sure all the sections were included).  

: [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  23:13, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

== Been Awhile ==
Sorry I haven't been active that much in weeks on this project my friend, but I'm going to start back working on it though. I have though been contributing to other Wikiprojects, and asking them what their opinion of outlines were. Good news: generally positive feedback :-). Keep up the great work you've been doing as the [[de facto]] (thats a word for you) coordinator of this project. [[User:Burningview|Burningview]] ([[User talk:Burningview|talk]]) 21:47, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

: Nice to see you again.  Thank you for the encouragement.  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  23:49, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

== heads up ==

A discussion [[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Outline_of_knowledge/open_tasks|here]] led to the creation of [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Outline_of_knowledge/outlines_for_review]]. Just wanted to fill you in so you can watchlist it and doc it at the directory or whatever else. --[[User:penubag|'''<span style="background:#00CCFF;color:#0066FF;font-size:84%">&nbsp;penubag&nbsp;</span>''']] ([[User talk:penubag|talk]]) 08:56, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
:I replied on my talk page --[[User:penubag|'''<span style="background:#00CCFF;color:#0066FF;font-size:84%">&nbsp;penubag&nbsp;</span>''']] ([[User talk:penubag|talk]]) 01:03, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

== Well ==

It appears he is being [[WP:DISRUPTIVE]]. So, List him at [[WP:AN]] or [[WP:ANI]], presenting them with the case like you did to me. Sorry for my late reply, i have been VERY, VERY busy lately. '''at'''[[User talk:astatine-210|-210]]  <small><sup>''[[Special:Contributions/Astatine-210|discovered elements]] ∞ [[astatine|what am I?]]''</sup></small> 20:17, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

==Thank you==
For the links to other outlines, the invitation to join [[WP:WPOOK]], and the barnstar. I'll be sure to look over the links for some more ideas. It's really very kind of you to take notice and give your fellow editors encouragement. Thanks again. [[User:Tiamut|<b><span style="color:#B93B8F;">T</span><span style="color:#800000;">i</span><span style="color:#B93B8F;">a</span><span style="color:#800000;">m</span><span style="color:#B93B8F;">u</span><span style="color:#800000;">t</span></b>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Tiamut|talk]]</sup> 23:26, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

== Word lists ==

Arg. Running out the door, but just noticed [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/-ism]] and [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/-graphy (2nd nomination)]] (and [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/-holism]] was just closed as merge/redirect). If you're around, any chance you could do the argument-summations and glossary project notification? If not, I will on monday. Ta. -- [[User:Quiddity|Quiddity]] ([[User talk:Quiddity|talk]]) 00:18, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

==MfD nomination of [[Wikipedia:Main Page alternative (TFL)]]==
[[Wikipedia:Main Page alternative (TFL)]], a page you substantially contributed to, has been nominated for [[WP:MfD|deletion]]. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at [[Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Main Page alternative (TFL) ]] and please be sure to [[WP:SIG|sign your comments]] with four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>).  You are free to edit the content of [[Wikipedia:Main Page alternative (TFL)]] during the discussion but should not remove the miscellany for deletion template from the top of the page; such a removal will not end the deletion discussion.  Thank you.<!-- Template:MFDWarning --> [[User:Magioladitis|Magioladitis]] ([[User talk:Magioladitis|talk]]) 09:44, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

== Government Sections ==

Thanks for the pointers, I'm going to be on somewhat of a wikibreak myself until Wednesday (31st) so if there's anything else I'll deal with it then. 
Also, I have now had a go at [[Outline of Greenland#Government and politics of Greenland|Outline of Greenland]]

<font face="Batik Regular">''[[User:Highfields|Highfields]]'' ([[User talk:Highfields|talk]], [[Special:Contributions/Highfields|contribs]], [[Wikipedia:Editor review/Highfields|review]])</font> 10:33, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

: Enjoy your vacation!  

: By the way, [http://www.randburg.com/gr/general/general_13.html Greenland has a cabinet] (most countries with prime ministers do).  Don't forget to check Google to justify red links. ;)

: [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  20:49, 26 July 2009 (UTC)


You might also like to have a look at [[Outline of Palestine]] as a whole, Tiamut discovered the AfD and has been investing enormous amounts of time and energy making is more politically correct and longer. <font face="Batik Regular">''[[User:Highfields|Highfields]]'' ([[User talk:Highfields|talk]], [[Special:Contributions/Highfields|contribs]], [[Wikipedia:Editor review/Highfields|review]])</font> 11:02, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

: Thank you for watching over things, and for contacting me.  I've been aware of this particular outline, I've participated in [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Outline of Palestine| the AfD]] and I have [[User talk:Tiamut#You deserve this...|talked to Tiamut about her contributions]].  

: I am very impressed that you are keeping an eye on the big picture, and that you were the first one to spot and respond to the AfD.  Nicely done.  You are doing an excellent job.  

: Please continue to feel free to contact me about anything you consider important.  I'm always interested.  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  20:53, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

==Big Picture of Niger==
*Our suggested titles are more fun, even if they're not very encyclopedic.  Said the Sphinx, thanks for the links. [[User:Mandsford|Mandsford]] ([[User talk:Mandsford|talk]]) 21:52, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

==Outline of Knowledge Project==
*I appreciate the invitation.  I had never really looked at an Outline page before (which probably is obvious from my initial reaction), but after looking at a sample (Outline of Japan), I get the concept, and it's an excellent idea for a navigational aid.  I'll sign on. [[User:Mandsford|Mandsford]] ([[User talk:Mandsford|talk]]) 22:43, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
==[[-graphy]]==
We probably need a bit of a bigger lead and the connection to related concepts (eg -graph) listed, and a ctiteria for inclusion documented. [[User:Graeme Bartlett|Graeme Bartlett]] ([[User talk:Graeme Bartlett|talk]]) 04:32, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

== Get editors ==

Ask Jimbo ([[User talk:Jimbo]]) to put the wikiad on the front page? I am not really sure how to do it other than that. '''at'''[[User talk:astatine-210|-210]]  <small><sup>''[[Special:Contributions/Astatine-210|discovered elements]] ∞ [[astatine|what am I?]]''</sup></small> 15:26, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

== [[Outline of Buddhism]] ==

You requested this article in the Buddhism Wikiproject. Someone did ''a lot'' of work and made it on their own: [[Outline of Buddhism]]. Thought you might want to check it out! <span style="font-size:large;">[[Zen|&#9775;]]</span>&nbsp;<span style="font-family:impact;">&nbsp;[[User:Zenwhat|Zenwhat]]</span>&nbsp;([[User talk:Zenwhat|talk]]) 17:24, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

: Thank you for the heads up.  That filled a big gap in the religion section of the [[WP:OOK]]. [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  15:59, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
: P.S.: Does your scope of interest include human knowledge as a whole (the Big Picture, a bird's eye view, EVERYTHING)?  If so, please consider joining [[WP:WPOOK]].  ''-[[User talk:The Transhumanist|TT]]''

::I don't really have any fixed scope of interest on Wikipedia. I enjoy contributing but don't seriously expect anything much to come from this site. I will edit pretty much whatever I want, whenever I want, if I can get away with it ([[WP:IAR]]), which tends to be random, small fixes and improvements, and I don't really bother with the hassle of trying to collaborate with anyone. I'm also lazy about searching for good references. And I'm not a consistent editor, like the type of person who will edit Wikipedia every day, several hours a day, week after week. The length of time I spend on here now varies greatly.

::So, I might contribute to pretty much any wikiproject, including yours if I happen to feel like it (right now I don't) but I won't make the formal commitment of signing my name to the page or adding some silly category tag, "Support of Wikiproject Whatever," to my userpage. With that said, I think that the lack of good outlines is the least of Wikipedia's issues.

::Thanks for the offer, though. <span style="font-size:large;">[[Zen|&#9775;]]</span>&nbsp;<span style="font-family:impact;">&nbsp;[[User:Zenwhat|Zenwhat]]</span>&nbsp;([[User talk:Zenwhat|talk]]) 16:28, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

== AWB Task ==

Hi. Your AWB Task on Demographics - some seem to have been done - some haven't so I'll have a go. To check, you want the CIA stat bit to be a level 2 heading and the emboldened stuff like Population to become level 3s? [[User:Alan16|Alan16]] ([[User talk:Alan16|talk]]) 14:23, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

: It depends on where it lies in the article's topic hierarchy.  For example, see [[Demographics of Denmark#CIA World Factbook demographic statistics]].  

: Thank you for taking this on.  

: [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  15:54, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

== Quiddity and OCD / [[Outline of rock music]] ==

An implicit edit ban exists at the Quiddity talk page, so I am here. Re: joining [[WP:WPOOK]]: I've been in the fifth column, second entry for a while. The category of projects at [[:Category:WikiProject Music genres]] is how I would organize it, thus making the title [[Outline of rock music]]. If that is a project you want to throw my way, I would take it on as my first OOK assignment. [[User:Sswonk|Sswonk]] ([[User talk:Sswonk|talk]]) 00:11, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
: Go for it. [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  00:13, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
::Do you know of an example outline of another musical genre? You can reply here, I'm watching the page. [[User:Sswonk|Sswonk]] ([[User talk:Sswonk|talk]]) 00:35, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
::: No, yours will be the first.  I've created the page to help you get started.  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  00:42, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
::::What am I missing here? I go to edit the page and there is a bunch of content that doesn't display. Is is transcluding something? [[User:Sswonk|Sswonk]] ([[User talk:Sswonk|talk]]) 00:58, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
::::: Don't know.  Try [[WP:PURGE|purging]] the page. [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  01:05, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

To look for rock articles, maybe try Google...

* [http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&num=100&q=allintitle%3A++%22of%22+%22rock%22+-highway+-portal+-category+-template+-user+-talk+-%22Wikipedia%3AWikiProject%22+site%3Ahttps%3A%2F%2Frp.liu233w.com%3A443%2Fhttp%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2F&aq=f&oq=&aqi= "of" and "rock"]

* [http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&num=100&q=allintitle%3A++%22in%22+%22rock%22+-highway+-portal+-category+-template+-user+-talk+-%22Wikipedia%3AWikiProject%22+site%3Ahttps%3A%2F%2Frp.liu233w.com%3A443%2Fhttp%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2F&aq=f&oq=&aqi= "in" and "rock"]

* [http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&num=100&q=allintitle%3A++%22for%22+%22rock%22+-highway+-portal+-category+-template+-user+-talk+-%22Wikipedia%3AWikiProject%22+site%3Ahttps%3A%2F%2Frp.liu233w.com%3A443%2Fhttp%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2F&aq=f&oq=&aqi= "for" and "rock"]

* [http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&num=100&q=allintitle%3A++%22rock%22+-%22rock+-+Wikipedia%22+-highway+-portal+-category+-template+-user+-talk+-%22Wikipedia%3AWikiProject%22+site%3Ahttps%3A%2F%2Frp.liu233w.com%3A443%2Fhttp%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2F&btnG=Search&aq=f&oq=&aqi= with "rock" not at the end]

== Rock music ==

I feel your efforts are best directed at trimming down and rewriting [[Rock music]] first. In theory that article should provide an basic overview of the topic, with room for daughter articles. Basically, try revamping [[Rock music]] first, ''then'' decide if you need the outline. [[User:WesleyDodds|WesleyDodds]] ([[User talk:WesleyDodds|talk]]) 07:21, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
:I have moved the section of the outline page which you tagged for neutrality to a sandbox. I think you can remove the tag, please do if you agree. [[User:Sswonk|Sswonk]] ([[User talk:Sswonk|talk]]) 12:29, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
:: I have moved the whole outline to WP:WPOOK's draft space, where I should have created it in the first place. [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  16:16, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
: Wesley, I'm an outline builder.  It's my specialty.  :)  I've been working on the [[WP:OOK|Outline of Knowledge]] for four years now (long before it was renamed to OOK).  My efforts are best directed building outlines, and coordinating the efforts of others who are working on them.  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  16:16, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Hi, please see the thread at [[User_talk:Sswonk/Outline_of_rock_music#Move_issue]]. We were following the advise of a sysop to move the sandbox/draft out of the mainspace and into my user space. Now you have made edits at the same time we have, although I think to different sections. Please hold off a second while we figure this out, i.e. you and I can settle on a place (drafts is OK, but what about the sysop comments?). [[User:Sswonk|Sswonk]] ([[User talk:Sswonk|talk]]) 17:38, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
: The page was copied and pasted to the sandbox, which is not the proper way to move a page since it does not preserve the page's edit history.  The proper way is to use the "move" tab at the top of the page, which I did. See '''[[Help:Moving a page#Page histories]]'''. The sandbox is a [[WP:CFORK]] of the original.  The original was moved to [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Outline of knowledge/Drafts/Outline of rock music]].  The copy should be merged into the original, and then the copy (sandbox) speedy deleted.  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  17:49, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

::Yes, I fumbled that one at the time. I had something in the back of my head telling me not to move a page to a subpage of its own talk, it would have been ''Outline of rock music --> Talk:Outline of rock music/Sandbox'' so at any rate I think we can live with how it is now. I merged the Sswonk version talk page per the instructions at [[Help:Merge]]. For my sake, please confirm everything is lined up correctly. I think I have to keep the subpages [[User:Sswonk/Outline of rock music]] and [[User talk:Sswonk/Outline of rock music]] because the page histories are not merged, any help on how to do that? [[Wikipedia:How_to_fix_cut-and-paste_moves#Parallel_versions]] has me worried. [[User:Sswonk|Sswonk]] ([[User talk:Sswonk|talk]]) 18:23, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

::: Only admins can fix page histories.  Ask [[User talk:Juliancolton]], he's a member of [[WP:WPOOK]] and will be glad to help. [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  18:35, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
::::{{done}} –'''[[User:Juliancolton|<span style="font-family:Script MT;color:#36648B">Juliancolton</span>]]'''&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;[[User_talk:Juliancolton|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:gray">''Talk''</span></sup>]] 15:48, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

==OOK goals==
Of the four essential aspects of the OOK you listed, I find the administrative one most appealing and fitting for myself. I have a good idea of what makes a good outline and what it takes to get there, so I'd be filling to help you out with developing the guideline (in addition to the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Outline of knowledge/Helpful tips|helpful tips]]). I am sort of confused though- we have the main outline guideline right now and the draft, were you planning on completely revamping it and then transferring it all to article space? Or are they intended to be separate articles? [[User:Minnecologies|Minnecologies]] ([[User talk:Minnecologies|talk]]) 19:06, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

: Welcome aboard.  I'm very happy that you are taking an interest in the big picture.

: [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Outline of knowledge/Drafts/Outline]] is an article draft - when completed, it is intended to replace the article titled "[[Outline (hierarchical)]]".  

: [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  19:12, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

== requests ==

{{done}}[[User:Penubag/Sandbox3|1]], [[User talk:Penubag/Sandbox3|2]]<br>
Also, some info on my status (if it concerns you) I'm taking a 3 week wikibreak starting tomorrow. More info on my userpage if you should care. Good luck TT! --[[User:penubag|'''<span style="background:#00CCFF;color:#0066FF;font-size:84%">&nbsp;penubag&nbsp;</span>''']] ([[User talk:penubag|talk]]) 19:46, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
:Hey, thanks dude, but today's not over yet. Any last minute requests/fix ups?
:And I'll be sure to take some pics with my crappy digital camera :) --[[User:penubag|'''<span style="background:#00CCFF;color:#0066FF;font-size:84%">&nbsp;penubag&nbsp;</span>''']] ([[User talk:penubag|talk]]) 19:56, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
::Sure, take the sandbox, it's all yours. About the medal, I've made it bigger and placed it under Africa in [http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/archive/1/1e/20090729202249!World_Developer_Champion_--_Buaidh.png this revision] but to me it looks out of place and awkward. So [http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/1e/World_Developer_Champion_--_Buaidh.png this one] is bigger but on the side. What do you think? --[[User:penubag|'''<span style="background:#00CCFF;color:#0066FF;font-size:84%">&nbsp;penubag&nbsp;</span>''']] ([[User talk:penubag|talk]]) 20:29, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
:::If you're happy with below africa, revert my last edit [[:File:World_Developer_Champion_--_Buaidh.png|here]] --[[User:penubag|'''<span style="background:#00CCFF;color:#0066FF;font-size:84%">&nbsp;penubag&nbsp;</span>''']] ([[User talk:penubag|talk]]) 20:31, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
:::: I tried placing it on a page, so I could compare it side by side with the other one, and it came up as the old version.  Could you upload it as a separate version?  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  20:34, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
::::: Okay, I'll upload 2 copies. BTW replied on the barnstar sandbox --[[User:penubag|'''<span style="background:#00CCFF;color:#0066FF;font-size:84%">&nbsp;penubag&nbsp;</span>''']] ([[User talk:penubag|talk]]) 20:38, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
:::::: [[:File:Medalian with name2.png|here's the other one]].  Kinda sad we have a dictator who "is unwilling to act in contravention of community consensus". --[[User:penubag|'''<span style="background:#00CCFF;color:#0066FF;font-size:84%">&nbsp;penubag&nbsp;</span>''']] ([[User talk:penubag|talk]]) 20:47, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
Okay, check out the new outline barnstar and tell me if it's good. --[[User:penubag|'''<span style="background:#00CCFF;color:#0066FF;font-size:84%">&nbsp;penubag&nbsp;</span>''']] ([[User talk:penubag|talk]]) 21:52, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
:Okay I'm signing off for good :) Check [[User talk:Penubag/Sandbox3]], you'll probably want me to fix it up when I get back. --[[User:penubag|'''<span style="background:#00CCFF;color:#0066FF;font-size:84%">&nbsp;penubag&nbsp;</span>''']] ([[User talk:penubag|talk]]) 00:36, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
:: I do like it :-)  [[User:Sj|+sj]][[User Talk:Sj|<font color="#f90" style="color:#f90;">'''+'''</font>]] 14:43, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

== [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion|AfD]] nomination of [[Outline of computer engineering]] ==
[[File:Ambox warning pn.svg|left|48px|]]An editor has nominated one or more articles which you have created or worked on, for [[Wikipedia:Deletion process|deletion]]. The nominated article is [[Outline of computer engineering]]. We appreciate your contributions, but the nominator doesn't believe that the article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion and has explained why in his/her nomination (see also "[[WP:NOT|What Wikipedia is not]]").

Your opinions on whether the article meets inclusion criteria and what should be done with the article are welcome; please participate in the discussion(s) by adding your comments to [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Outline of computer engineering]]. Please be sure to [[WP:SIG|sign your comments]] with four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>).

You may also edit the article during the discussion to improve it but should not remove the [[WP:AfD|articles for deletion]] template from the top of the article; such removal will not end the deletion debate.

'''Please note:''' This is an automatic notification by a [[WP:BOT|bot]]. I have nothing to do with this article or the deletion nomination, and can't do anything about it. --[[User:Erwin85Bot|Erwin85Bot]] ([[User talk:Erwin85Bot|talk]]) 01:29, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

== Lists of basic topics not yet outlined ==
[[List of basic futurology topics|Futurology]], [[List of basic tort law topics|Tort law]], [[List of basic libertarianism topics|Libertarianism]].  [[User:Sj|+sj]][[User Talk:Sj|<font color="#f90" style="color:#f90;">'''+'''</font>]]
 

== Facilitated discussion ==
Transhumanist, you are among other things talented at facilitating discussions in an unusual way -- through your energy and enthusiasm :-)   I'd appreciate your input on the [[WP:CF|Community facilitation]] project, which among other things aims to maintain a set of long-term discussion pages at [[WP:Issues]].

Regards, [[User:Sj|+sj]][[User Talk:Sj|<font color="#f90" style="color:#f90;">'''+'''</font>]] 15:00, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

: Seems redundant to the [[WP:VP|Village pump]].  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  21:19, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

== Interrupting comments ==

Just to note that you [[WP:TALKO|should]] use <nowiki>{{Template:Interrupted}}</nowiki> when splitting up another user's comment to insert your own responses, for the sake of readability. Thanks. --[[User:McGeddon|McGeddon]] ([[User talk:McGeddon|talk]]) 21:02, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
: Thank you.  {{done}}.  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  21:16, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

== please remove me ==

As I have asked you several times before, can you please take me off your list for your project. I can assure you that I try to improve Wikipedia and have done all kinds of stuff (translation, railways, chemistry, whatever) but I cannot do everything at once. I am sure it is a worthy project but I cannot help and there is no point pretending I can.

Thank you, and thank you for making WP better! [[User:SimonTrew|SimonTrew]] ([[User talk:SimonTrew|talk]]) 23:11, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

==User essays==
You'll have to stop placing your personal essays in Wikipedia: namespace. Seriously, how old are you? You have shown renitent disregard for every principle of Wikipedia's namespace organization. You want to write an opinion piece on "why we need outline"? Please do that, but do it in your own user space. Thank you. --[[User:Dbachmann|dab]] <small>[[User_talk:Dbachmann|(𒁳)]]</small> 09:51, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

: [[Wikipedia:Why do we have outlines in addition to...?]] is an expansion of [[Wikipedia:Outlines]], and was split from that page (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:The_Transhumanist/Why_do_we_have_outlines_in_addition_to...%3F&action=history ).

: [[Wikipedia:Comparison of Wikipedia's and Britannica's outlines of knowledge]] was also split off from [[Wikipedia:Outlines]] (when it was still a draft).  See http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Comparison_of_Wikipedia%27s_and_Britannica%27s_outlines_of_knowledge&action=history

: They are consistent with other essays in the Wikipedia namespace.  See: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Essay&namespace=4&limit=500&from=0

: [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  15:52, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

== [[Outline of James Bond]] ==

As you may know, as well as being a member of [[WP:WPOOK]], I'm a member of [[WP:007|WikiProject James Bond]]. So, if you want, I could start a draft of such an outline so we can see how it goes? <font face="Batik Regular">''[[User:Highfields|Highfields]]'' ([[User talk:Highfields|talk]], [[Special:Contributions/Highfields|contribs]], [[Wikipedia:Editor review/Highfields|review]])</font> 14:20, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

: Yes please!  Shaken, not stirred.  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  21:15, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

:I will draft at [[User:Highfields/sandbox]] before moving it into the mainspace. <font face="Batik Regular">''[[User:Highfields|Highfields]]'' ([[User talk:Highfields|talk]], [[Special:Contributions/Highfields|contribs]], [[Wikipedia:Editor review/Highfields|review]])</font> 18:06, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

== Glossaries idea ==

Just a thought. [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Etymology]] might have some insight/input/interest regarding word-lists/glossaries. 

I'm still on wikibreak till at least monday. -- [[User:Quiddity|Quiddity]] ([[User talk:Quiddity|talk]]) 17:59, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

: Enjoy. [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  00:25, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

==Outline of birds==
Its been started by [[User:MeegsC]] and its looking good. Just wanted to pass it on. [[User:Tiamut|<b><span style="color:#B93B8F;">T</span><span style="color:#800000;">i</span><span style="color:#B93B8F;">a</span><span style="color:#800000;">m</span><span style="color:#B93B8F;">u</span><span style="color:#800000;">t</span></b>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Tiamut|talk]]</sup> 21:09, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

: I'll take a look.  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  00:25, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

== Re:Subject vs. title ==

Replied on my talk page. Also, would you mind archiving your talk page? It takes 7 or 8 seconds to load on my computer! Thanks, [[User:Dabomb87|Dabomb87]] ([[User talk:Dabomb87|talk]]) 23:07, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

==AWB requests==
[[Wikipedia:AutoWikiBrowser/Tasks]] - can you clear down those that are no longer relevant?  ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich]] [[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]'', 02:53, 1 August 2009 (UTC).
: Will do, as I find the time.  Updated one so far.  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  01:50, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

== Talkback ==

{{talkback|Tarheel95}}
[[User:Tarheel95|Tarheel95]] ([[User talk:Tarheel95|talk]]) 03:04, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

== Stand-alone lists & Outlines ==

[[Wikipedia:Stand-alone lists]] doesn't currently mention Outlines. Perhaps it should? --[[User:Cybercobra|Cybercobra]] ([[User talk:Cybercobra|talk]]) 23:48, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

: I tried.  See the guideline's edit history and [[WP:STAND#sneak addition of various other "types of lists"]].  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  23:59, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
::Wow. Geez. --[[User:Cybercobra|Cybercobra]] ([[User talk:Cybercobra|talk]]) 00:16, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

== quiddity talkback==
Talkback/thread notes: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AQuiddity&diff=305877856&oldid=305720215#Quiddity.2C_he.27s_at_it_again 2 replies] for you at my talkpage, and 2 other posts[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk%3AStand-alone_lists&diff=305872307&oldid=305253145], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Dbachmann&diff=prev&oldid=305874185] just for fyi of what i've said, and what I'm thinking at the moment.

(this wikibreak concept is marvelously relaxing! however the 7 days of watchlist is starting to look daunting... i'll be back soon.) -- [[User:Quiddity|Quiddity]] ([[User talk:Quiddity|talk]]) 01:07, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
:2 more replies at my talk. -- [[User:Quiddity|Quiddity]] ([[User talk:Quiddity|talk]]) 17:30, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

== Outline of Lebanon ==

Hello,

Thanks. I condensed the lead down to purely idiosyncratic Lebanese material, (which sadly is primarily war, chaos, and more chaos) so it should be suitable for an outline. I've also looked through the outline and everything seems correct. The only things I'd like to change are some of the geographical terms that obviously don't apply, like fjords or volcanoes. It's impossible to find a source displaying [[negative proof]] (e.g. source A states Lebanon does not have volcanoes) for them, leaving me unsure as to how to deal with them. [[User:Mnation2|Mnation2]] ([[User talk:Mnation2|talk]]) 04:32, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

== Just in case you missed ==

Someone [[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/The Transhumanist 6|nominated you]] at RfA. [[User:OhanaUnited|<b style="color:#0000FF;">OhanaUnited</b>]][[User talk:OhanaUnited|<b style="color:green;"><sup>Talk page</sup></b>]] 05:35, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
: Thank you. [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  01:48, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

== Art requests? ==

Hey, I'm asking you this because you seem like the type of person who'd know...

Do you know if there's any place on Wikipedia where a person can request that a piece of artwork be made for Wikipedia (for the Wikimedia Commons)? I know there's a place for people can request scripts or bots, so I thought, why not art?

Because I had a good idea for something for the [[Outline of Buddhism]] article, which would also be a fun project: It would be neat to have a single image depicting the various mythological creatures of Buddhist cosmology. [[Naga]]s, [[Garuda]]s, [[Gandhabba]]s, [[Yakkha]]s, [[Snow Lion]]s, etc.. There are ''some'' pictures of these things on the Commons already, but they're not very good and couldn't be combined into a single presentation, for instance, for the [[Buddhist cosmology]] article or the Buddhist Outline. <span style="font-size:large;">[[Zen|&#9775;]]</span>&nbsp;<span style="font-family:impact;">&nbsp;[[User:Zenwhat|Zenwhat]]</span>&nbsp;([[User talk:Zenwhat|talk]]) 12:38, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

: [[GIMP]] rocks!

: I highly recommend that you try to do it yourself.  Many graphics software programs are free, and are as or nearly as powerful as their non-free counterparts.  You'll be surprised how easy graphics programs are to use when you have the proper instructions.  For instructions, Wikipedia-style, see...

: '''[[Wikipedia:Graphics tutorials]]'''

: A program not listed on there is [http://splashup.com/ Splashup] a [[raster graphics]] program run online (from its website).  Wikipedia needs a tutorial on it, so if you get good at using it, please contribute one.

: Another free program not listed, but of the download type, is [[Paint.NET]].

: See also: [[Graphics software]] and [[Graphic art software]].

: Dipping into the effort yourself will help you understand the programs better so that you can better specify what you may want others to do, and so that you can touch up their work (very handy).  And you may be surprised at the quality results you can produce yourself.

: To find others who can help, see:
:* [[Wikipedia:Requested pictures]]
:* [[Wikipedia:Graphic Lab/Image workshop]]
:* [[:Category:Wikipedian vector graphics editors]]
:* [[:Category:Wikipedians by graphics editor]]

: I hope you find my advice helpful.

: [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  18:35, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

== OoK task ==

I'm finally done with the Ds, I think, and it only took me a month, since I'm super efficient. I've marked them done on your workpage, along with my name to indicate that only I've checked them over. 

If you have any more tasks for me, let me know. I'm getting more interested in dispute resolution and mentoring users than gnoming at the moment, but I still need something to do while doing nothing, if you know what I mean. --[[User:Gimme danger|Gimme danger]] ([[User talk:Gimme danger|talk]]) 03:38, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

: Thank you.  I'll look over the D's and will provide feedback to you when I do.

: Yes, I have another very important task for you...

: Read each outline (and each outline's talk page), and when you come across a problem, let me know what it is.

: This will help us decide what needs to be done.

: As you look over the outlines, if you get any ideas on how to improve them, please let me know those too.

: [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  00:45, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

==[[WP:Requests for adminship/The Transhumanist 6]]==
Well, good luck, and hold on for dear life! :P '''<font face="times new roman">[[User:hmwith|<span style="background:#999;color:#fff;padding:0 4px">hmwith</span>]][[User talk:hmwith|<span style="background:#666;padding:0 4px;color:#fff;">t</span>]]</font>''' 15:39, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

:Good luck, I probably won't !vote this time, but wanted to wish you good luck.---'''[[User:Balloonman|<font color="purple">Balloonman</font>]]''' ''[[User talk:Balloonman|<b><sup><small>NO! I'm Spartacus!</small></sup></b>]]'' 17:08, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
::Sorry about the outcome...---'''[[User:Balloonman|<font color="purple">Balloonman</font>]]''' ''[[User talk:Balloonman|<b><sup><small>NO! I'm Spartacus!</small></sup></b>]]'' 03:17, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

== Good luck! ==

And archive your talk page! :) –'''[[User:Juliancolton|<span style="font-family:Script MT;color:#36648B">Juliancolton</span>]]'''&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;[[User_talk:Juliancolton|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:gray">''Talk''</span></sup>]] 20:34, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

==Query==

Hi trans. Im not ready to support your rfa at this time. But Im just worreid over query 8. At my university i would never use a public terminal to edit. Mostly becuase the terminals are assceable to everyone and anyone. Is your university set up slighlty more secured?. Basically at ours anyone can come in and use the internet even if they dont specifically have a university account. This at times causes people to forget to log off very easily. Is this the same at yours?, Or does your library require an individual log in under their own accounts and access is granted only to valid accounts? I have no reason to oppose you on your rfa and I wont be opposing either. i just need a bit more reassurance here on the security of these terminals before i can support. Thank you for your time [[User:Ottawa4ever|Ottawa4ever]] ([[User talk:Ottawa4ever|talk]]) 14:47, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
: The RfA is the place to address these issues, in the questions section, for the benefit of the participants there.  Thank you.  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  16:59, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

== 2012 Election Need Your Feedback ==

I noticed you were a regular editor on the 2008 election page.  Myself and other editors are odds on some edits we are trying to make to the page.  Since you have already been involved in probably similar discussion, we would greatly appreciate hearing your feedback on the 2012 election discussion page under the Republicans and Ruled Out discussions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_States_presidential_election,_2012#Republicans.3F

[[User:David1982m|David1982m]] ([[User talk:David1982m|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/David1982m|contribs]]) 20:03, 4 August 2009 (UTC).

: I vaguely recall making a single minor edit.  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  18:10, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

== Finished with main page look, Check it out!==
I added the link to the list of portals, and it came out quite nicely! [[User:Tarheel95|Tarheel95]] ([[User talk:Tarheel95|talk]]) 00:57, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

== Question about tools ==

First, I was stunned to see your RFA withdrawal. Very sorry to see it. I've only !voted in a handful of RFA's, but I take the !vote seriously, and do some homework before weighing in. I thought sure this would be the time.

I'll understand if you have other things on your mind at the moment, but while checking you out, I saw your optimum tool suite or whatever it is called. I installed it, and I've been using it. I already had Wiked installed, but I've started exploring the other things.

Today I saw the beta button and checked it out. Didn't stay long, mainly because I realized my tools were gone. I now think (bit not sure) that beta is vector, so do I just have to follow the same instructions, and add the tools to the Vector skin? Or is there something else that needs to be done?--<span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">[[User:Sphilbrick|<span style="background:#002868;color:#fff;padding:0 4px">SPhilbrick</span>]][[User talk:Sphilbrick|<span style="background:#ADD8E6;padding:0 4px;color:#fff;">T</span>]]</span> 03:26, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

: I'm not sure Beta is Vector - Beta's sidebar menu looks different than the last screen shot of Vector I saw.  But if it is Vector, [[WP:VECTOR]] will tell you what you need to know. [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  03:35, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
::Thanks --<span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">[[User:Sphilbrick|<span style="background:#002868;color:#fff;padding:0 4px">SPhilbrick</span>]][[User talk:Sphilbrick|<span style="background:#ADD8E6;padding:0 4px;color:#fff;">T</span>]]</span> 03:43, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

==Barnstar==
Transhumanist my friend,   
Its about time you deserve a barnstar for all your contributions to outlines on Wikipedia, and also for being the promoter that you are for outlines. If it wasn't for you we might not have outlines as they are, so It it my honor to present to you the Special Barnstar beacause no other barnstar could merit what you do for outlines on Wikipedia:-) [[User:Burningview|Burningview]] ([[User talk:Burningview|talk]]) 03:42, 8 August 2009 (UTC)   
    
{| style="border: 1px solid gray; background-color: #fdffe7;"
|rowspan="2" valign="middle" | [[Image:SpecialBarnstar.png|100px]]
|rowspan="2" |
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''The Special Barnstar'''
|-
|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | This barnstar is presented to Transhumanist for all the hard work, contributions, coordination, and promotion he does in advancing the idea, coverage, content, and quality of Outlines on Wikipedia. For this he deserves a Special Barnstar [[User:Burningview|Burningview]] ([[User talk:Burningview|talk]]) 03:42, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
|}

== "Lexical pattern" ==

Hi.

What does "lexical pattern" include?

It sounds pretty general.  Don't all glossaries have lexical patterns?  I mean, they're lists of definitions.  You can't get more lexical than that, right?  So are you saying that all glossaries are out?

Just curious.

I look forward to your reply on my talk page.

[[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  02:44, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

:No, glossaries are not formed on lexical patterns at all. They are lists that are used to help read and understand an area or a piece of text of some kind. The Wikipedia is not a lexical work, it's a collection of topics. Valid encyclopedic topics are ''not'' lists of words beginning in 'k' or ending in 'ing' or whatever; lists along lexical lines are clearly extremely unencyclopedic and are very dictionary-like.- ([[User:Wolfkeeper|User]]) '''Wolfkeeper''' ([[User_talk:Wolfkeeper|Talk]]) 09:36, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

:To be perfectly honest, this is so obvious I am having a hard time believing that you are not simply being deliberately disruptive, and to be honest there is a fair amount of evidence that points towards that position.- ([[User:Wolfkeeper|User]]) '''Wolfkeeper''' ([[User_talk:Wolfkeeper|Talk]]) 09:36, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

:: I've always thought "lexical" pertained to dictionaries in general.  Here's the wiktionary entry, where many AfD'ers are likely to check first (notice the second context):

::# linguistics - concerning the [[vocabulary]], [[word]]s or [[morpheme]]s of a [[language]]
::# linguistics - concerning [[lexicography]] or a [[lexicon]] or [[dictionary]]

:: Here's Webster-Merriam's:

:::1 : of or relating to words or the vocabulary of a language as distinguished from its grammar and construction
:::2 : of or relating to a lexicon or to lexicography

:: According to WM, the primary context of a "lexicon" is "a book containing an alphabetical arrangement of the words in a language and their definitions : dictionary"

:: So, glossaries are lexical.

:: Making "lexical" too ambiguous to disallow lexical things in a guideline that includes lexical things (glossaries).  

:: Also, you are bing way too esoteric.  How many junior and highschool kids (who can and do participate in AfDs) know what "lexical" or "lexical pattern" means?  

:: [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  19:11, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

== Talkback ==

you have new messages on my talk page. [[User:Tarheel95|Tarheel95]] ([[User talk:Tarheel95|talk]]) 12:55, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

== RFA ==

Unlucky with the RFA. I thought you should have passed - the opposes seemed a bit harsh to me. Best regards, [[User:Alan16|Alan16]] ([[User talk:Alan16|talk]]) 19:25, 8 August 2009 (UTC).

== "Lexical pattern" ==

Hi.

What does "lexical pattern" include?

It sounds pretty general.  Don't all glossaries have lexical patterns?  I mean, they're lists of definitions.  You can't get more lexical than that, right?  So are you saying that all glossaries are out?

Just curious.

I look forward to your reply on my talk page.

[[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  02:44, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

:No, glossaries are not formed on lexical patterns at all. They are lists that are used to help read and understand an area or a piece of text of some kind. The Wikipedia is not a lexical work, it's a collection of topics. Valid encyclopedic topics are ''not'' lists of words beginning in 'k' or ending in 'ing' or whatever; lists along lexical lines are clearly extremely unencyclopedic and are very dictionary-like.- ([[User:Wolfkeeper|User]]) '''Wolfkeeper''' ([[User_talk:Wolfkeeper|Talk]]) 09:36, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

:To be perfectly honest, this is so obvious I am having a hard time believing that you are not simply being deliberately disruptive, and to be honest there is a fair amount of evidence that points towards that position.- ([[User:Wolfkeeper|User]]) '''Wolfkeeper''' ([[User_talk:Wolfkeeper|Talk]]) 09:36, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

:: See [[WP:AGF]].

:: I've always thought "lexical" pertained to dictionaries in general.  Here's the wiktionary entry, where many AfD'ers are likely to check first (notice the second context):

::# linguistics - concerning the [[vocabulary]], [[word]]s or [[morpheme]]s of a [[language]]
::# linguistics - concerning [[lexicography]] or a [[lexicon]] or [[dictionary]]

:: Here's Webster-Merriam's:

:::1 : of or relating to words or the vocabulary of a language as distinguished from its grammar and construction
:::2 : of or relating to a lexicon or to lexicography

:: According to WM, the primary context of a "lexicon" is "a book containing an alphabetical arrangement of the words in a language and their definitions : dictionary"

:: So, glossaries are lexical.

:: Making "lexical" too ambiguous to disallow lexical things in a guideline that includes lexical things (glossaries).  

:: Also, you are being way too esoteric.  How many junior and highschool kids (who can and do participate in AfDs) know what "lexical" or "lexical pattern" means?  

:: [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  19:11, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

:::Lexicon, lexicographic, lexical are all about dictionaries. They're about simple collections of letters and morphemes and dictionaries and definitions thereof. WP:DICDEF says that this is what wikipedia is NOT.- ([[User:Wolfkeeper|User]]) '''Wolfkeeper''' ([[User_talk:Wolfkeeper|Talk]]) 22:45, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

:::To the extent that you are successful in arguing that glossaries are dictionaries, you're successful in arguing that wikipedia shouldn't have them. That's not ''my'' claim. My claim is that the subset of glossaries that are constructed along lexical grounds are unencyclopedic.- ([[User:Wolfkeeper|User]]) '''Wolfkeeper''' ([[User_talk:Wolfkeeper|Talk]]) 22:48, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

:::Your argument that 'oh it's all so complicated' doesn't really cut it, not when you're arguing for dicdef lists. YOU know what this is about.- ([[User:Wolfkeeper|User]]) '''Wolfkeeper''' ([[User_talk:Wolfkeeper|Talk]]) 22:45, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

::::I'm copying this discussion to [[WT:STAND]], so that other editors can weigh in on this. --[[User:Gimme danger|Gimme danger]] ([[User talk:Gimme danger|talk]]) 00:36, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

:::: Reply posted to [[WT:STAND]].  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  18:57, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

== Your RfA ==

I was sorry, though not overly surprised, to see the way that it went. My commiserations.

Among the rot that was thrown at you, was one issue I noticed that I thought you might pay attention to. It seems that there is quite some opposition to the Outlines project - either in terms of its very existence, or in terms of the way it's been put up [[willy nilly]].

I wondered if you had thought about responding to this in some way, perhaps with a discussive RfC, appropriately promoted at the VP, Signpost and CENT, to see what consensus said? You have some well-developed examples now (not to mention the chocolate animation!) for people to see what's being proposed.

Cheers --[[User:Dweller|Dweller]] ([[User talk:Dweller|talk]]) 11:49, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

{{ {{#ifeq:|{{void}}|void|Error:must be substituted}}|PRODWarning}}

: As you know, I've been working on these for years.  And there are ''many'' other editors working on these too, every day.  You may remember many of these articles as [[Lists of basic topics]], and '''''I have talked with you about them on at least several occasions!'''''  Here's a couple posts in your November 2007 talk page archive about them: [[User talk:Dweller/Archive 14#Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of basic geography topics]] and [[User talk:Dweller/Archive 14#Basic topics]].  Before and since then, there have been plenty of public discussions in many locations (village pump, project talk pages, guideline talk pages, etc.)

: The basic topic lists were renamed from "List of basic ____ topics" to "Topic outline of ____" in September 2008, and were renamed to "Outline of _____" in March of this year.  The current name has attracted a lot of attention, mostly good.  Looks like we finally found the right name for these!

: To refresh your memory, they're just "structured lists", which is how the list guidelines have referred to this type of list over the years.  They were built in accordance with  [[WP:STAND]].  There are thousands of structured lists on Wikipedia (most of them are still named "List of") - it is one of the two main formats for lists.  The other major list format is alphabetical.

: I hope this jogs your memory.  :)

: A good sense of the community's perspective on these can be gotten from the AfDs over the years:

* [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Outline of Islamic and Muslim related topics]] (Nov 2005) - delete (this was resurrected recently via Deletion Review!, and is now the [[Outline of Islam]]).
* [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of basic computer science topics]] (March 2006) - no consensus
* [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of basic visual arts and design topics]] (May 2006) - delete. Replaced by [[List of basic visual arts topics]] and [[List of basic design topics]]
* [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of basic industrial topics]] (Aug 2006) - speedy keep
* [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of basic management topics]] (Aug 2006) - keep
* [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of basic Canada topics]] (March 2008) - keep
* [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of basic mining topics]] (Aug 2008) - keep
* [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Topic outline of algebra]] (Jan 2009) - keep (also nominated: [[Topic outline of arithmetic]], [[Topic outline of calculus]], [[Topic outline of geometry]], [[Topic outline of mathematics]])
* [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Topic outline of Big Science]] (Jan 2009) - keep
* [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Outline of South Africa]] (May 2009) - speedy keep
* [[Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:WikiProject Outline of knowledge/Drafts/Outline of British Columbia]] (June 2009) - speedy keep
* [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Outline of Palestine]] (July 2009) - keep

: If you have any further questions, please feel free to ask.

: [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  01:55, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

: P.S.: check out current development on Wikipedia's outlines (the ones we know about so far, anyways), '''''[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:RecentChangesLinked&limit=500&days=30&target=Wikipedia%3AWikiProject_Outline_of_knowledge%2FWatchlist_using_Related_changes here]'''''

==Proposed deletion of Outline of England==
[[Image:Ambox warning yellow.svg|left|48px|]]

The article [[Outline of England]] has been [[Wikipedia:Proposed deletion|proposed for deletion]]&#32; because of the following concern:
:<b>Content fork from [[England]].</b>

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be [[WP:DEL#REASON|deleted for any of several reasons]].

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the <code>{{tl|dated prod}}</code> notice, but please explain why in your [[Help:edit summary|edit summary]] or on [[Talk:Outline of England|the article's talk page]].

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised.  Removing <code>{{tl|dated prod}}</code> will stop the [[Wikipedia:Proposed deletion|Proposed Deletion process]], but other [[Wikipedia:deletion process|deletion process]]es exist.  The [[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion|Speedy Deletion process]] can result in deletion without discussion, and [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion|Articles for Deletion]] allows discussion to reach [[Wikipedia:Consensus|consensus]] for deletion.<!-- Template:PRODWarning --> [[User:Cnilep|Cnilep]] ([[User talk:Cnilep|talk]]) 16:01, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
:Removed my own prod per [[Wikipedia:Why do we have outlines in addition to...?]] Sorry for the misunderstanding. [[User:Cnilep|Cnilep]] ([[User talk:Cnilep|talk]]) 16:07, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

== [[Outline of water]] ==

I saw a redlink for an [[Outline of water]] on the [[WP:WPOOK]] page as an example of why we need outlines. I looked into it further and found there was definitely a need so I created it. I've just moved it into the mainspace. Feel free to check it over and it'll need putting on all the projected outline stuff but I'm not really sure how to do that. <font face="Batik Regular">''[[User:Highfields|Highfields]]'' ([[User talk:Highfields|talk]], [[Special:Contributions/Highfields|contribs]])</font> 20:34, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

: Wow.  I had no idea there was that much water-related stuff on Wikipedia.

: Nice job.

: You got me interested, so I took a look around...

: Did you do a [http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=ush&as_q=water&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&num=100&lr=&as_filetype=&ft=i&as_sitesearch=https%3A%2F%2Frp.liu233w.com%3A443%2Fhttp%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2F&as_qdr=all&as_rights=&as_occt=title&cr=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&safe=images '''Google''' search for "water" in Wikipedia article titles]?

: Did you do a [http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=ush&as_q=water&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&num=100&lr=&as_filetype=&ft=i&as_sitesearch=https%3A%2F%2Frp.liu233w.com%3A443%2Fhttp%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2F&as_qdr=all&as_rights=&as_occt=title&cr=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&safe=images '''Google''' search for "aquatic" in Wikipedia article titles]?

: I noticed a lot of water-related topics in [[:Category:Water]] not included in the outline.

: Would you say that activities in or on water were different than uses of water?

::Very helpful, Thank You. <font face="Batik Regular">''[[User:Highfields|Highfields]]'' ([[User talk:Highfields|talk]], [[Special:Contributions/Highfields|contribs]])</font> 10:23, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

: Where do these fit in?
:* [[Drowning]]
:* [[Reservoir]]
:* [[Water tower]]
:* [[Sink]]
:* [[Bathtub]]
:* [[Bucket]]
:* [[Water gun]]
:* [[Water fight]]
:* [[Pressure washer]]
:* [[Glass (drinkware)]]
:* [[Boiling]]
:* [[Steam]]
:* [[Steam engine]]
:* [[Hydrosphere]]
:* [[Water transport]]
:* [[Sanitation]]
:* [[Fishing]]
:* [[Fire fighting#Use of water|Use of water in fire fighting]]
:* [[Flood]]
:* [[Wave]]
:* [[Wind wave]]
:* [[Tsunami]]
:* [[Aquaduct]]
:* [[Bathing]]
:* [[Drinking]]
:* [[Swimming]]
:* [[Naval warfare]]
:* [[Dehydration]]
:* [[Hydrate]]
:* [[Hydropower]]
:* [[Plumbing]]
:* [[Pump]]
:* [[Water well]]
:* [[Fountain]]
:* [[Water pollution]]
:* [[Professional diving]] (not a sport)
:* [[Winter sport]]
:* [[Dam]]
:* [[Hose (tubing)]]
:* [[Water pipe]]
:* [[Tap (valve)]]
:* [[Drought]]
:* [[Drainage]]
:* [[Drainage divide]]
:* [[Drainage basin]]
:* [[Washing]]

: Does that help?

: [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  21:50, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

== content forking -- proposed changes to lead ==

Hi,

I'm an outsider to Outlines and Lists, but generally I think your comment is very helpful and needs to be addressed in the body text of the article, and also needs a sentence in the lead.

It's too late at night for me to closely read your comments and make further revisions to my "3rd proposal". I'm wondering if you'd like to just make edits directly to my proposal, to bring it into consistency with your comments, and then indicate afterward that "Andrew Gradman invited me to integrate my comments directly into this proposal".  Or something like that.  I don't yet have a deft touch at managing talk page discussions.

I included an invitation at WP: Village Pump (miscellaneous), so hopefully that will draw the appropriate level of discussion to this.

Thanks. [[User:Agradman|Andrew Gradman]]&nbsp;<small><sup>[[User talk:Agradman|talk]]</sup>/<sub>[[WP:Hornbook]]</sub></small> 03:46, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

== Look at it now ==

I put the link in the strapline. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Tarheel95/Main_Page_with_OOK_link [[User:Tarheel95|Tarheel95]] ([[User talk:Tarheel95|talk]]) 18:25, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

== Glossary of isms ==
What is going on with [[Glossary of philosophy|that glossary]]? Don't you think the recent manuevers are a major re-purpose? They apparently deleted [[-ism]] (which is okay I guess, however I would like to have moved the content elsewhere.) I wonder if you aren't as concerned about this as I am, and perhaps more open minded to "Glossary of philosophical theories" these days? 

I also did not know you were up for admin and pulled your nomination... I would have voted for you. I am a little concerned about the political environment after looking at that process. Be well, [[User:Gregbard|Pontiff Greg Bard]] ([[User talk:Gregbard|talk]]) 21:35, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

: Wow, that's a shotgun blast of issues.  :)  I'll try to address them one-at-a-time:

: '''Glossary''' - it got renamed, as the most logical starting point for a general glossary on philosophy.  If we simply copied it, to start the general glossary, the copy would have been AfD'd pretty fast.  See the talk page for more details.

: '''A major repurpose?''' - No.  A general glossary of philosophical terms would and should include all philosophical theory terms and all philosophical ism terms.  Being the largest collection of philosophical term descriptions on Wikipedia, it makes sense that the glossary of philosophical isms form the base from which the general glossary be constructed.  Once it has grown to sufficient size, subsets can be copied from it to construct more specialized glossaries, such as a ''Glossary of philosophical theories'' and a ''Glossary of philosophical isms''.  If done now, both of those would be almost identical to the current glossary, and would no doubt be nominated at AfD. 

::Yes it ''is'' a major repurpose. There are now being added things like "a posteriori" which are not theories (or isms, or any of that). This totally defeats the purpose of gathering together all the isms in the first place. Those items should be included in a [[Glossary of philosophical concepts]]. This is a useful organization of things which is being lost with this recent activity. I had merged two of these ism lists only to have my efforts undone. At some point I would like to go in there and organize things, but I need some cooperation to do that. Please take a look at [[User:Gregbard/Concepts and theories]], I am going to work consistent with that plan at some point so, please do comment on it. Be well, [[User:Gregbard|Pontiff Greg Bard]] ([[User talk:Gregbard|talk]]) 21:09, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

::: Expanding from theories to concepts is no larger a repurpose than going from isms to theories.  Both isms and theories are concepts, and would be included in a general glossary on the subject.  I still would like to maintain a glossary of isms, but a general glossary needs to be constructed, and the ism glossary is the best (biggest) starting point.  And as I pointed out above, simply forking it (to use a copy as the starting point instead of the original) would invite AfD action.  So repurposing is the best option.  If you'd rather not this not take place, I'm in favor of restoring the glossary of philosophical isms.  If we're going to repurpose that glossary, we might as well do it ''all the way'' for philosophy as a whole.  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  00:21, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

: '''Content of the ''[[-ism]]'' article''' - There is no need for regret here.  Anyone can request of any admin to move a deleted article to their userspace.  See [[WP:USERFY#Userfication of deleted content]].

: '''RfA''' - In my opinion, the biggest problem with RfA is that [[WP:CIVIL|common decency]] isn't being upheld there.  Wikipedia's own [[code of conduct]], its [[Wikipedia:List of guidelines#Behavioral|behavioral guidelines]], is not being adequately enforced there (or barely at all).  Acts of [[defamation]] (lies, slander/libel, misleading statements, [[false light]], etc.) and [[character assassination]] are tolerated.  That is not right, nor acceptable.  Therefore, to force myself to face the problems of the RfA process, I have retained my current account name, and I have been going for adminship only while in the midst of a conflict.  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  20:20, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
::I agree with you about the 'shark tank' type of culture. It seems that there are a few real bullies out there. [[User:Gregbard|Pontiff Greg Bard]] ([[User talk:Gregbard|talk]]) 21:09, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

== Howdy ==

I apologize for taking a hiatus so unanounced, but I'm back now and would like to help with the Outline project although I must admit I wasen't really helping before... Just tell me where to go!--'''''[[User:Skater|<span style="font-family:Chiller;color:#CC0033">SKATER</span>]]''''' [[User_talk:Skaterthealmighty|<sup><span style="font-family:Impact;color:Black">'''Speak.'''</span></sup>]] 17:42, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

== status ==

Hi! How's it been going? 

I've had a wonderful time during vacation, minus a few things. I managed to take a few shots with my camera until it got totally drenched during a [[typhoon]]. Luckily I have a few pictures that are upload worthy for Wikipedia although I wasn't able to take any more pictures afterwards and am forced to buy a new camera soon. The culture in Japan is amazing. The technology is a few years ahead of the US's and everyone is so courteous. If you were to visit another country, Japan should have a spot on your list! The rest of my vacation was good as well but shot without a camera. Anyways, how's it been going for you?

Looking around on your talk page shows me that you applied for adminminship. It's an extreme shame that someone like you who cares so much about this project isn't given proper respect. If I were given a chance to voice my opinion, I would write that your leadership skills are exemplary (just look at OOK now) and would be valuable asset to the administrator crew. What amazes me more is you continue to help out Wikipedia after countless put downs from all angles and numerous times at all your Rfa's. Opposing because it's your 5th Rfa is a bogus argument. If anything, the resilience and dedication even after all those failed rfa's should count for something. And I'm not saying this just to make you happy.

Anyways...I hope everything's been going well on your side. I'm extremely happy to see [[Outline of water]] be started, it's sort of like a dream that came true! I will continue to complete the requests you have given me. --[[User:penubag|'''<span style="background:#00CCFF;color:#0066FF;font-size:84%">&nbsp;penubag&nbsp;</span>''']] ([[User talk:penubag|talk]]) 08:14, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

: Well, there's more to my RfAs than meets the eye.  ;) I'm dedicated to RfA reform, and in order to fix the problems at RfA (such as its "shark tank" culture, tolerance of [[WP:CIVIL]] violations there, watchlisting by long-term opponents of future RfAs, etc.), I force myself to face them.  My approach entails that I keep my current account name (rather than make a [[WP:CLEANSTART]]) and that I only apply for or accept RfA nominations when I'm in the midst of a conflict or controversy.  During my last RfA I was embroiled in a conflict over OOK (with Roux and others).

: The "pile on" phenomenon at RfA is definitely a problem that is difficult to overcome.  It's especially frustrating when editors lie about you and others who subsequently drop by and accept their posts at face value and oppose based on those lies.  For example, Roux stated "his utter inability to even grant the vaguest hint that maybe critics might have a point and refusal to answer simple questions about it. It shows an appalling lack of judgement and complete inability to listen to others."  His statement was generally misleading and also included a blatant untruth...

: As you know, I painstakingly answer all queries about outlines.  I was especially attendant to Roux's queries, arguments, and accusations concerning outlines, which he posted on my talk page and eslewhere.  But he claimed I didn't answer!  His post at RfA is ironic, since his ''point'' is that outlines generally suck and his position is to delete the outlines - agreeing with him means promoting the death of the outline project!  And he apparently equates disagreeing with him as "inability to listen to others", even if you answer him point for point.  

: To make matters worse, RfA custom is that nominees are expected to refrain from replying in the voting sections.  Replying there may be interpretted as arguing (and "shows lack of admin skill").  If you do reply in the oppose section, you may find your doing so as the reason opposers give for opposing!  Nominees are left to sit their and take it.

: I'll find a solution eventually.

: Or not.

: So don't fret it.  :)

: [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  03:04, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

== outline articles ==

I read your posts about outlines on AnnaFrance's talk page and decided to call the military history project for help in establishing guidance and providing review processes where editors can get outside opinion. The thread can be found [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history#Outlines|here]]. Greetings [[User:Wandalstouring|Wandalstouring]] ([[User talk:Wandalstouring|talk]]) 12:01, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

==Historical outlines==
Regarding [[:Category:Historical outlines]]...

I still strongly believe those "Historical outline of foo" articles should actually be named "Timeline of foo". More accurate and precise, and perhaps comprehensible. (I mentioned it before somewhere, but can't find it now).

For an example, compare [[Outline of Illinois history]] with [[Timeline of Chicago history]].

Maybe we need to upgrade [[List of timelines]] to be a part of the Portal:Contents/ set?

Just a note, for you to consider, whilst you're mass-moving things around... :) -- [[User:Quiddity|Quiddity]] ([[User talk:Quiddity|talk]]) 01:27, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

: Based on the way the history section of outlines have been developed (especially the history sections of country outlines), the major classification scheme seems to be:

:* By period
:* By region
:* By subject

: Which makes these articles general outlines, rather than timelines.  The "By period" section may be a timeline, if it is formatted that way.

: As far as I can tell, the "historical outline of" articles by Buaidh aren't chronological, but topical, which makes them generic outlines rather than outlines of the timeline variety.  

: [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  01:38, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

== My top 10 subjects. ==

Apologies for the delay, but here goes: btw I couldn't think of 20 :p.
*1. [[Metal Music]]
*2. [[Video Games]]
*3. [[Rock Music]]
*4. [[Airsoft]]
*5. [[American Football]]
*6. [[Halo game|Halo]]
*7. [[4chan]], aka /b/
*8. [[Runescape]]
*9. Soviet Weapons
*10. [[Sharks]]