View source for Talk:Steamtown National Historic Site

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== NRHP and NPS sources ==

<nowiki>{{Infobox_nrhp | name =Steamtown National Historic Site
  | nrhp_type =nhs
  | image = 
  | caption = 
  | location= 150 South Washington Ave., [[Scranton, Pennsylvania]]
  | locmapin = Pennsylvania
  | area =
| architect= 
| architecture= 
 | added = [[October 30]], [[1986]]
 | governing_body = NATIONAL PARK SERVICE
 | refnum=01000282
<ref name="nris">{{cite web|url=http://www.nr.nps.gov/|title=National Register Information System|date=2007-01-23|work=National Register of Historic Places|publisher=National Park Service}}</ref>
}}</nowiki>
The infobox could possibly be useful in editing the article. Steamtown is a [[National Historic Site]], and hence is also listed on the [[National Register of Historic Places]].  It is not a National Historic Landmark.  I hoped to provide the NRHP registration documents, comprised of a PDF text file and a PDF photos file, but those are not available on-line at the National Park Service for this site, unlike for most NHLs and I think for most NHS sites.  The [http://nrhp.focus.nps.gov/natreghome.do?searchtype=natreghome National Register document search site] does yield the name Steamtown, of course, but it leads to no documents.  To obtain them, one must make a request to the National Register of Historic Places Reference Team (nr_reference at NPS.gov) for hard copies.  Hope this is helpful. [[User:Doncram|doncram]] ([[User talk:Doncram|talk]]) 05:14, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
:The Pennsylvania ARCH site has it - the NRHP nomination form (PDF) is [http://www.arch.state.pa.us/pdfs/H064489_01B.pdf here] I will try to add info to this as I have time, [[User:Ruhrfisch|Ruhrfisch]]  '''[[User talk:Ruhrfisch|<sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt;</sub><small>&deg;</small><sup><small>&deg;</small></sup>]]''' 05:53, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

== Criticisms ==

The language in the Criticisms section must be toned down.  Words like "deplorable" are not appropriate for an encyclopedia.  Closer to the subject it must be understood that restoration takes a lot of money, and many of the pieces dropped off at Steamtown would have been scrapped for need of storage anyway. --[[User:KJRehberg|KJRehberg]] ([[User talk:KJRehberg|talk]]) 02:17, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
:I'd be in favor of scrapping the whole section unless sources can be added and the language toned down.  I don't doubt that legitimate criticism exists, but it's certainly not represented in this section. [[User:Tomdobb|Tomdobb]] ([[User talk:Tomdobb|talk]]) 04:04, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
::I agree the language is not [[WP:NPOV]], but reliable sources for at least the pork barrell and collection quality criticisms are fairly easy to find. See this ''New York Times'' [http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=travel&res=9D0CEFDB1438F930A15752C1A967958260 piece] which talks of McDade's role and says "But a number of historians and museum curators around the nation call Steamtown a second-rate collection of trains on a third-rate site." My guess is the lack of restoration issue also has RS that can be cited. I started this article and it was one of my first so I did not use inline citations - sorry. I recall finding the criticisms on the web, but will need to look for the lack of repair stuff. The worst POV language is NOT mine, [[User:Ruhrfisch|Ruhrfisch]]  '''[[User talk:Ruhrfisch|<sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt;</sub><small>&deg;</small><sup><small>&deg;</small></sup>]]''' 12:15, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
::::Here is a [http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E0CE7DC103DF93BA35752C0A964958260&n=Top/Reference/Times%20Topics/Subjects/R/Railroads rebuttal] of the criticism by then Governor Scranton in a letter to the NYT. [[User:Ruhrfisch|Ruhrfisch]]  '''[[User talk:Ruhrfisch|<sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt;</sub><small>&deg;</small><sup><small>&deg;</small></sup>]]''' 17:24, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
:::[http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2008/09/steamtown_historic_site_hits_a.html Here]'s a late 2008 AP article on visitor numbers being substantially down, repairs being delayed as a result of stagnant budgets, and calls to privatize the operations. [[User:Ruhrfisch|Ruhrfisch]]  '''[[User talk:Ruhrfisch|<sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt;</sub><small>&deg;</small><sup><small>&deg;</small></sup>]]''' 14:06, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
::::And [http://www.nps.gov/stea/upload/reading2124response.pdf here] is an official NPS Steamtown response on why they have not repaired a particular locomotive that mentions tight budgets and only being able to maintain what already works: "Our shop force is stretched tight to maintain and perform class repairs to the present power “in-service”." [[User:Ruhrfisch|Ruhrfisch]]  '''[[User talk:Ruhrfisch|<sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt;</sub><small>&deg;</small><sup><small>&deg;</small></sup>]]''' 14:11, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
:::::[http://www.scrantontimes.com/articles/2008/09/14/news/sc_times_trib.20080914.a.pg1.tt14steamtown_s2.1897608_top2.txt Here] is a piece from the Scranton Times (the AP article linked above seems to be a short version of the same thing). It quotes two critics extensively, at least one of whom (Pevsner) tried to hijack this article some time ago. For a rebuttal to some of the arguments, see this [http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com/2008/09/attendance-shortfalls-and-related-problems-steamtown-national-historic-site-prompt-calls-pri piece] which may not be a RS (and does use my photo, with attribution). [[User:Ruhrfisch|Ruhrfisch]]  '''[[User talk:Ruhrfisch|<sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt;</sub><small>&deg;</small><sup><small>&deg;</small></sup>]]''' 15:36, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
I first looked at this article a few days ago and my impression was that the whole thing was cut and pasted from the NPS website.  Since I have visited the Scranton Steamtown site twice, I've always been puzzled as to why the staff there down plays its history.  I don't think that a neutral article is supposed to be like that. My first reaction was to start a new article, [[Steamtown, USA]] which would tell of the early roots of Steamtown, in Vermont, and include the many pieces of equipment that have since been eliminated from the collection. And I did. It is not complete, but the history section is.  Once I completed the history my research continued into the Scranton years.  I looked back at this article to see two, uncited 'cut and paste" paragraphs.  I was well into my 11th paragraph (so far) rewrite when I took at look at this discussion page and saw that you already had several of the sources that I has just cited.  I have to ask, if you were familiar with the sources, why didn't you just write it and cite it?--[[User:Ishtar456|Ishtar456]] ([[User talk:Ishtar456|talk]]) 03:33, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
::::::No good reason except that I was busy with other things. I am not really a train person, alhtough I started this article a long time ago. I am very glad to see your work on it - thanks. [[User:Ruhrfisch|Ruhrfisch]]  '''[[User talk:Ruhrfisch|<sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt;</sub><small>&deg;</small><sup><small>&deg;</small></sup>]]''' 03:45, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm working on DL&W 2-6-0 No.565, we are cosmedtic Restoring it to it former glory. The real reason steamtown is " 
"Our shop force is stretched tight to maintain and perform class repairs to the present power “in-service”." is because the NPS has only 17 paid employees and the rest is "VIP" Volunteer In Park out of thoses 17 the ones that get their hands dirty are made up of only 10 people. Now how do you expect 10 people to restore every thing that sits in the yard? Why don't you take time out and Volunteer in the park, in stead of complaining this isn't getting done or that isn't getting done. I'm doing my part I have close to 70 hours of volunteer time in. in fact here is the link for the volunteer Application. [http://www.nps.gov/stea/supportyourpark/upload/OF301_VolApplication_06_07.pdf]
Thank you,
Leonard Shaner
Co - Volunteer Lead for Project 565.
Friday September 25, 2009
:No offense was meant or intended to you or to any of the staff or volunteers. The NPS is chronically underfunded and if there is a villain in this story, it is the lack of money for the work needed at all of the parks. Finally, let me point out that this is an international encyclopedia and most of the volunteers who conrtribute here do not necessarily live anywhere near enough to help there. [[User:Ruhrfisch|Ruhrfisch]]  '''[[User talk:Ruhrfisch|<sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt;</sub><small>&deg;</small><sup><small>&deg;</small></sup>]]''' 02:50, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

== Reorganization idea ==

I have been thinking about this article and the sources available. I think it would make more sense to have the history section divided into three parts: history of the site (which the NRHP documents would help with), history of the collection (looking at Steamtown USA) and then History of the current Steamtown NHS. The current criticisms section would disappear, but the pork barrel allegations could go into the early part of the NHS history, the collection criticisms could be discussed in both the history of the collection and the early NHS history, and the information on attendance and the lack of restoration could go into the late (current) part of the NHS history, or perhaps even into an Operation section. I think this could be a GA with some work, although I have several other projects in line ahead of this right now. The other sections would probably be about the same, though some of the collection info could go into the history of the collection. How does this idea sound? [[User:Ruhrfisch|Ruhrfisch]]  '''[[User talk:Ruhrfisch|<sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt;</sub><small>&deg;</small><sup><small>&deg;</small></sup>]]''' 20:20, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

== Locomotive list ==

The locomotive list is fine, but how about a further identification by builder and type?

ALSO, contributors on this page are using insider's knowledge. Article additions should be following the Wikipedia rule of acceptable verifiability, this requires that all references can be traced back to a reliable source. [[User:Trezjr|trezjr]] ([[User talk:Trezjr|talk]]) 02:31, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

== Restoration section ==

I am trying to prepare this article for GA (and have been for a couple of years).  I am removing this problematic portion and preserving it here for discussion and or improvement. --[[User:Ishtar456|Ishtar456]] ([[User talk:Ishtar456|talk]]) 11:46, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
:While I do not doubt the information moved here is substantially correct, it is both uncited and, to my mind at least, too detailed for this article. I think removing it is OK under [[WP:NOT]] (Wikipedia is not a directory). That said, I wonder if it would make sense to make a list article for the locomotives at Steamtown, especially if refs to [[WP:RS]] can be found? 
:Good luck with the GA and thanks for your work on this. I am quite busy at the moment and cannot help much, but I did notice not all of the current references have all the required information (accessdate for internet refs, for example). [[User:Ruhrfisch|Ruhrfisch]]  '''[[User talk:Ruhrfisch|<sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt;</sub><small>&deg;</small><sup><small>&deg;</small></sup>]]''' 16:28, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

===Restoration projects===
{{Cleanup|section|date=May 2010}}

'''Boston and Maine Railroad No. 3713''' 

Whyte System Type: 4-6-2 Pacific</br>
Class: P-4a, Series 3710-3714</br>
Builder: Lima Locomotive Works</br>
Date Built: December 1934</br>
Builder's Number: 7625</br>

Cylinders (diameter x stroke in inches): 23 x 28</br>
Boiler Pressure (in lbs. per square inch): 260</br>
Diameter of Drive Wheels (in inches): 80</br>
Tractive Effort (in lbs.): 40,900; with booster, 52,800</br>

Tender Capacity:</br>
Coal (in tons): 18</br>
Water (in gallons): 12,000</br>
Weight on Drivers (in lbs.): 209,800</br>

'''Delaware, Lackawanna & Western R.R. No. 565''' 

Whyte System Type: 2-6-0 Mogul</br>
Class: 10c</br>
Builder: American Locomotive Company (Schenectady Works)</br>
Date Built: 1908</br>
Builder's Number: 45528</br>

Cylinders (diameter x stroke in inches): 20-1/2 x 26</br>
Boiler Pressure (in lbs. per square inch): 200</br>
Diameter of Drive Wheels (in inches): 63</br>
Tractive Effort (in lbs.): 29,484</br>

Tender Capacity:</br>
Coal (in tons): 10</br>
Water (in gallons): 6500</br>
Weight on Drivers (in lbs.): 140,000; </br>
Total Weight: 161,000</br>

This is a cosmetic restore only; she then will be placed in the 1902 Roundhouse on display.[http://projectdlw565.webs.com/]

'''Baldwin Locomotive Works (Eddystone) No. 26''' 

Whyte System Type: 0-6-0 Switch engine</br>
Class:</br>

Builder: Baldwin Locomotive Works</br>
Date Built: March 1929</br>
Builder's Number: 60733</br>

Cylinders (diameter x stroke in inches): 20 x 24</br>
Boiler Pressure (in lbs. per square inch): 180</br>
Diameter of Drive Wheels (in inches): 50</br>
Tractive Effort (in lbs.): 29,375</br>

Tender Capacity:</br>
Coal (in tons):</br>
Water (in gallons):</br>
Weight on Drivers (in lbs.): 124,000

== Merging of [[Steamtown, U.S.A.]] into Steamtown National Historic Site. ==

After reading about Steamtown, U.S.A. and Steamtown National Historic Site, both articles sounds like the same Steamtown. Its follows as that Steamtown U.S.A. stopped in 1983 and reopened in 1986 in Scranton after moving from Vermont and in the same year Congress voted to transform it into an historic site which happened in 1995. Than Congress did research in 87 and 88 while Steamtown was an still independent tourism site. Than Steamtown went bankrupt in 1990 and after the research was completed, the research was used as a Scope of Collections Statement for Steamtown which was published in 91 as the Steamtown Special History Study a year after Steamtown went bankrupt. And then 95 the government aquired Steamtown U.S.A. and reopened it as Steamtown National Historic Site so I guess you can it was renamed from Steamtown, U.S.A. to Steamtown National Historic Site while keeping the name Steamtown.[[Special:Contributions/173.61.77.216|173.61.77.216]] ([[User talk:173.61.77.216|talk]]) 20:55, 4 January 2014 (UTC)