View source for Talk:State decoration

{{Old AfD multi | date = 13 May 2016 | result = '''redirect to [[Orders, decorations, and medals]]''' | page = State decoration}}
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{{WikiProject Orders, decorations, and medals|importance=}}
{{WikiProject Numismatics |importance=}}
{{WikiProject Awards}}
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{{WikiProject Politics }}
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== Requested move 12 November 2019 ==
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:''The following is a closed discussion of a [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. ''

The result of the move request was: '''No consensus''' Only three participants, and I don't believe any article got converging opinions. I would recommend an [[WP:RFC|request for comment]] to get wider feedback on the topics raised here and perhaps find some level of consistency for this set of articles. <small>([[Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions#Closure by a page mover|closed by non-admin page mover]])</small> [[User:Wugapodes|Wug·]][[User talk:Wugapodes|a·po·des]] 07:59, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
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* [[:State decoration]] → {{no redirect|State award}}
* [[:Ecclesiastical decoration]] → {{no redirect|List of ecclesiastical awards}}
* [[:Civil awards and decorations]] → {{no redirect|List of civil awards}}
* [[:List of military decorations]] → {{no redirect|List of military awards}}
* [[:List of highest military decorations]] → {{no redirect|List of highest military awards}}
* [[:Campaign medal]] → {{no redirect|Military campaign award}}
* [[:List of medals for bravery]] → {{no redirect|List of bravery awards}}
– This topic seems like bit of a mess? Per [[WP:CONSISTENCY]] with [[Talk:Award]], [[Talk:List of awards]]. Not sure this nomination is necessarly the optimal end result. At best, however, perhaps it could be a step towards an improvement of the area? See also [[Template:Phaleristics]]. For the record, I guess you could approach the issue in two ways? 1) "[[Decoration]]" somewhat of a visual metaphor for the same thing, an [[award]]. 2) [[Decoration]] is a type of [[award]] that is worn on recipient - typically a [[medal]] or equivalent [[insignia]]. Please note: renaming [[Ecclesiastical decoration]] to [[Ecclesiastical award]] would effectively mean a merge. See also somewhat related rename discussion [[Talk:List of awards in theatre]] for the formula "list of X awards" as seen in the list. [[User:PPEMES|PPEMES]] ([[User talk:PPEMES|talk]]) 21:25, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
*'''Support''' as follows:
** [[:State decoration]] → {{no redirect|State award}} - '''Rename''' to [[State awards and decorations]].
** [[:Ecclesiastical decoration]] → {{no redirect|List of ecclesiastical awards}} - '''Rename''' to [[Ecclesiastical awards and decorations]] and possibly merge.
** [[:Civil awards and decorations]] → {{no redirect|List of civil awards}} - '''Oppose'''. Not a list.
** [[:List of military decorations]] → {{no redirect|List of military awards}} - '''Rename''' to [[List of military awards and decorations]].
** [[:List of highest military decorations]] → {{no redirect|List of highest military awards}} - '''Rename''' to [[List of highest military awards and decorations]].
** [[:Campaign medal]] → {{no redirect|Military campaign award}} - '''Oppose''' per [[WP:COMMONNAME]]. No good reason for renaming.
** [[:List of medals for bravery]] → {{no redirect|List of bravery awards}} - '''Rename''' to [[List of bravery awards and decorations]].
* An award is rather different from a decoration. It can mean an award for poetry or cooking or literature. "Awards and decorations" is the accepted term for these things. -- [[User:Necrothesp|Necrothesp]] ([[User talk:Necrothesp|talk]]) 13:34, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
::While I'm not sure myself, doesn't [[Talk:Award]] and [[Talk:List of awards]] counter your assertion? [[User:PPEMES|PPEMES]] ([[User talk:PPEMES|talk]]) 13:59, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
:::No. That was about the title for the article on the generic term. These articles, however, are using it in a more specific sense, where "awards and decorations" is the accepted term. -- [[User:Necrothesp|Necrothesp]] ([[User talk:Necrothesp|talk]]) 14:26, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
:::: Then I '''support''' your '''ALT'''. Thanks. [[User:PPEMES|PPEMES]] ([[User talk:PPEMES|talk]]) 18:06, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
* [[List of military decorations]] is actually not at all limited to military awards (or decorations or whatever you want to call them). [[Talk:List_of_military_decorations#Rename_to_include_civilian_honors?|I raised this issue on the talk page a while back]] (unsurprisingly no response - it's not a highly-watched page). It should be renamed to something that reflects its actual content. Perhaps [[Lists of orders, decorations, and medals by country]], but I offered a few other options on the talk page. I'm going to '''oppose''' this mass RM on the principle that each of these articles should be discussed individually, and a multi-RM is going to get too chaotic. Individual RMs is the way to go. [[User:Colin M|Colin M]] ([[User talk:Colin M|talk]]) 04:41, 19 November 2019 (UTC)
:: {{re|Colin M}} Thanks. While at it, though, would you mind sharing what would have beeen you idea for some of the optimal names for the listed entries in hypothetical individual talks? [[User:PPEMES|PPEMES]] ([[User talk:PPEMES|talk]]) 11:54, 19 November 2019 (UTC)
::: Sure, though please consider these just preliminary thoughts - I haven't done thorough due diligence on each of them:
:::; [[:State decoration]] → {{no redirect|State award}} : Based on [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=state+award%2Cstate+decoration&case_insensitive=on&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t4%3B%2Cstate%20award%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3BState%20Award%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bstate%20award%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BState%20award%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BSTATE%20AWARD%3B%2Cc0%3B.t4%3B%2Cstate%20decoration%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bstate%20decoration%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BState%20decoration%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BState%20Decoration%3B%2Cc0 initial ngram data] I would probably support this, though I'd want to confirm that sources are actually using them as synonyms. 
:::; [[:Ecclesiastical decoration]] → {{no redirect|List of ecclesiastical awards}} : This looks like a complicated situation. An earlier attempt to boldly merge this article with [[Ecclesiastical award]] was reverted by [[User:Place Clichy]] for what look to me like reasonable concerns. This needs input from editors knowledgeable about the subject matter, perhaps, as Place Clichy suggested, via a [[WP:MERGEPROP]] rather than using the RM process.
:::; [[:Civil awards and decorations]] → {{no redirect|List of civil awards}} : Oppose, per necrothesp. Not a list. Current title seems fine. I think simply [[Civil award]] is worth considering as a much more [[WP:CONCISE]] option, though I'd want to check RS usage.
:::; [[:List of highest military decorations]] → {{no redirect|List of highest military awards}} : Oppose unless either 1) evidence is provided that "military award" is the [[WP:COMMONNAME]] for this class of entities, or 2) a rationale is given for the benefit of enlarging the scope of the article (under definition 2 in the nomination, wherein "decoration" is a strict subset of "award"). Are there items listed in the article which aren't properly described as decorations? Or are there non-decoration military awards that this article should be expanded to include?
:::; [[:Campaign medal]] → {{no redirect|Military campaign award}} : Neutral pending evidence one way or the other of [[WP:COMMONNAME]]. However I'll note that if this article were to be renamed, the category tree under [[:Category:Campaign medals]] should probably also be renamed for consistency.
:::; [[:List of medals for bravery]] → {{no redirect|List of bravery awards}} : Leaning oppose. The proposed rename would ostensibly enlarge the scope of the article (because medals are a strict subset of awards), but to what end? AFAICT, every item listed in the article has "medal" in its name, so the current title seems appropriate.
:::tl;dr: in most of these cases, I think the status quo is working fine. Also, I'm going to refer to [[Talk:List_of_the_largest_evangelical_church_auditoriums|my comments in an earlier RM]] about renames that broaden the ''nominal'' scope of an article without actually changing its content. I think they're often counterproductive, and can lead to less recognizable/natural names. I think that factor is in play with a few of these proposed moves, because they involve moving from "medal"/"decoration" to the less specific "award". [[User:Colin M|Colin M]] ([[User talk:Colin M|talk]]) 15:26, 19 November 2019 (UTC)
::::Thanks for your feedback! {{ping|Necrothesp}} Do you have any comments on that? [[User:PPEMES|PPEMES]] ([[User talk:PPEMES|talk]]) 14:19, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
:::::I stand by my original comments. -- [[User:Necrothesp|Necrothesp]] ([[User talk:Necrothesp|talk]]) 14:21, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
:::::: {{ping|Necrothesp}} {{ping|Colin M}} Are you sure an agreement is impossible? I for one am willing to stretch either of your two ways. As illustrated by [[Template:Phaleristics]], "decorations" is arguably a subtopic of the broader topic awards. Do you have any understanding of the other side's arguments for including and not including "decorations", respectively? From arguments presented on both sides until date, I am neutral. [[User:PPEMES|PPEMES]] ([[User talk:PPEMES|talk]]) 23:15, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
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:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested move]]. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Move review|move review]]. No further edits should be made to this section.''<!-- Template:RM bottom --></div>