JacktheBrown

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White pizza and Pizza bianca

I have now split the article. I believe you saw my proposal and didn't object.

We could use a photo of a pizza bianca, if you can get hold of one. If you can take it yourself, that is. Also, there's content from it:Pizza bianca that could be added to the English article. Un assiolo (talk) 17:33, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

@Un assiolo: very good work, congratulations! JacktheBrown (talk) 18:28, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Topic ban

Hi, Jack. I'm sorry to have to inform you that you've been topic banned from WP:GENSEX per the discussion at ANI. I'm hoping this won't be a difficult area for you to avoid, as it's nowhere near any of your primary editing interests.

Please read the links above to make sure you understand exactly what this means, as while I'm not adding broadly construed to this (which I hope will help you stay out of trouble), you really shouldn't get anywhere near it. Any questions, general ones about what this means or specific ones about whether a particular edit would be seen as violating this, should be dealt with here on your talk page by discussing with an administrator. Valereee (talk) 12:01, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

@Valereee: you administrators have made a very fair decision. "I'm hoping this won't be a difficult area for you to avoid, as it's nowhere near any of your primary editing interests.": no problem. JacktheBrown (talk) 12:05, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

@Valereee: could you please list me all the controversial articles that I should, to be safe, avoid? JacktheBrown (talk) 12:11, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

That isn't possible. Just stay away from anything vaguely to do with sexuality. And it's not just articles, it's anywhere. Doug Weller talk 12:42, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Jack, Doug is correct, it's impossible to list every article where GENSEX could apply. One thing you can do is check the article's talk page to see if it's listed as a CT within GENSEX, as some aren't obvious. For instance, J. K. Rowling is listed as contentious within GENSEX. She herself is a cisgender woman, but she's expressed opinions about trans people that are controversial. Valereee (talk) 14:48, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

@Valereee, it would be much simpler if you advised that they shouldn't discuss or edit about sexuality or gender anywhere and that they should stay away form articles where it is clear that is a major part of the material. TarnishedPath^talk 14:52, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

@Valereee: I would like to inform you that the user blocked indefinitely created this, but I never used those two accounts and IPs; I would like a check user to take care of it. JacktheBrown (talk) 12:21, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, but that's something we don't do. See WP:CHECKME. Doug Weller talk 12:44, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

@Doug Weller: if it's not checked, it should be closed; I never used those two accounts and IPs, but I would like a decision to be made. Thank you very much. JacktheBrown (talk) 12:50, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

No, it should not be closed. You're accused of using accounts, not just IPs. I'm not touching it . Doug Weller talk 14:13, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Jack, there's a backlog, it'll be closed eventually. Valereee (talk) 14:35, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

@Valereee, the WP:TBAN policy explicitly states that WP:BROADLY applies unless otherwise stated. Are you explicitly stating that WP:BROADLY doesn't apply? TarnishedPath^talk 14:12, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

I hadn't noticed that. I think without broadly construed it is confusing and ambiguous. How would an editor know what they could not do? Doug Weller talk 14:16, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

@Doug Weller, I entirely agree. How would an editor know where the bounds are? TarnishedPath^talk 14:30, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

I intentionally left out broadly construed because it's GENSEX, but I see TP is correct that this needs to be specifically stated, so I'll go do that at the editing restrictions. I don't feel it's any more confusing or ambiguous with/without, but I do feel someone could jump on the t-banned editor for validly correcting a typo from he > her, for example. Valereee (talk) 14:31, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

@Valereee: I would like to stay completely out of topics on GENSEX, they aren't suitable for me. JacktheBrown (talk) 14:39, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Jumping on someone for a he/her typo would obviously be out of order, but I do feel that without the WP:BROADLY the terms of the WP:TBAN become too ambiguous. TarnishedPath^talk 14:35, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

You can bring it up at WP:XRV if you like. I'm open to the community deciding I'm incorrect. Valereee (talk) 14:50, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

I'll think about it. I'm generally against going to appeal boards so I probably won't. I do however think that leaving out the BROADLY is leaving it more problematic both for the editor and everyone else. I'll leave it there for this particular discussion. TarnishedPath^talk 14:54, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

I have some thoughts on this too, but I've taken them to Valereee's talk page. If any of this ends up affecting JTB, someone can update him. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 18:00, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

As a t-banned editor for about 18 months, I can attest that the "broadly construed" part is exactly what's kept me thinking I'll be jumped for correcting any small typo at J.K. Rowling's article. I agree that such a jump would be "obviously" out of order, but that wouldn't stop it from happening; the truth of what's "obvious" would just become part of the post-jump discussion. I advise you keep strictly to that simplest path of complete avoidance you mentioned at 14:39, Jack, and be lulled into no sense of security (false or otherwise). InedibleHulk (talk) 19:14, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

To be clear, I've made plenty of edits involving gender and sexuality during my ban, and not one has been a problem to anyone. Granted, you have no reason to think my past experience indicative of your own future results, so choose wisely. But I think you'll likewise have nothing to fear when it involves cis people's genders and sexualities. InedibleHulk (talk) 19:28, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

@InedibleHulk: I have forbidden myself to edit all controversial topics; style changes (example: MOS:CAPTION and MOS:GEOLINK) are, obviously, allowed: [1]. JacktheBrown (talk) 19:32, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

If those allowances are what's obvious to you at this point, I think that only seems fair; good luck! InedibleHulk (talk) 19:42, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Hey, Jack. The discussion at AN is telling me pretty clearly that I did not have this much discretion in setting the limits of the topic ban from GENSEX; I'm going to have to convert it to a 'broadly construed' restriction.

Broadly construed in GENSEX is particularly difficult to navigate. It often intersects with BLP, another contentious topic, the level of scrutiny for folks under a GENSEX tban is extremely high, and the tolerance for edits that can trigger a complaint is extremely low. I would highly recommend you ask here first before editing a biography of anyone who is not cisgender and/or of anyone who has ever weighed in on subjects of gender/sexual identity/politics. And as I said before, check the talk page headers; if GENSEX is in there, just let it go, even if it's an obvious typo. Don't weigh in on any discussions anywhere that involve GENSEX. Literally the only place you should be discussing or asking questions is here on this talk page with me or another admin. Valereee (talk) 12:09, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

@Valereee: I didn't understand; can I edit, for example, pages like Ricky Martin (he's homosexual), Tiziano Ferro (he's homosexual) and Gianni Versace (he was homosexual)? JacktheBrown (talk) 14:12, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

BLPs

Jack, you'd asked whether you are allowed to edit Ricky Martin, Tiziano Ferro, and Gianni Versace, all of whom are/were gay. None of these articles has a GENSEX banner, so in theory you should be able to edit any portion of those articles that didn't deal with their sexuality or their stance on politics, etc., as it affects LGBTQ+ people.

In practice, however: probably best to simply stay away. One thing other editors definitely do not want to see is any hint of you 'nibbling around the edges' of the topic ban. The goal here is to avoid it altogether, not try to determine exact boundaries. No one really knows what broadly construed means. The exact boundaries are always going to be blurry and are always going to be in the eye of the beholder. Trying to figure those boundaries out for yourself is just going to make people think you're trying to figure out how to game the system.

And again, to be very, very clear: you may only ask these questions HERE. You may not ask them or discuss the ban on any other page, including my talk, Teahouse, or anywhere else. The only exception is in an appeal, which is not something you should even be thinking about right now. Valereee (talk) 14:36, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

@Valereee: no, I absolutely don't want to violate the rules, the rules must be respected. Simply I have already edited these three articles in the past (for example, regarding an unmentioned article, I wrote the initial quote on the Sergio Leone page (here). I'm Italian, so I know Leone very well; excluding me from editing the page wouldn't be good for the encyclopaedia). JacktheBrown (talk) 14:47, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Whether a particular edit is or isn't good for the encyclopedia isn't going to be part of anyone's assessment of whether or not that edit violates a topic ban. I am not exaggerating; it will receive zero consideration. Valereee (talk) 15:25, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

@Valereee: so basically I can no longer edit any page of any living person? Only Italian cuisine? I don't comment. JacktheBrown (talk) 15:31, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

No, you can edit pages of living people, the tban is not about BLPs. It's when a BLP crosses into sexuality and gender that you need to be careful. Leone isn't gay? Totally outside the tban except something like reporting his stance on LGBTQ+ people or something. Valereee (talk) 15:37, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

@Valereee: however, Sergio Leone was heterosexual. JacktheBrown (talk) 15:37, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Right, so probably completely outside the tban unless like J. K. Rowling he's made statements or has done work that would be covered by the ban. Valereee (talk) 15:38, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

@Valereee: but for homosexual people I can't even make style changes (e.g. MOS:CAPTION)? JacktheBrown (talk) 15:41, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Well, no, it's not that simple. In theory, you can work on biographies of people who are LGBTQ+, and in general it should be outside the topic ban if the article is not bannered as GENSEX and the edits you're making aren't related to GENSEX. The fact a person is LGBTQ+ doesn't mean the article about them is necessarily contentious. Some gay people are just people who are gay. Others are contentious figures. Some cis people involve themselves in gender politics.

It might be more productive if you'd like to ask about a specific edit you were wondering if you can make rather than trying to pin down the hypothetical boundaries, which as I've said are blurry and in the eye of the beholder. Valereee (talk) 15:52, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

@Valereee: the specific edits are, for example, MOS:CAPTION, MOS:GEOLINK, fixing quotation marks and apostrophes, adding commas, etc. (see: [2]). JacktheBrown (talk) 15:57, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

At Foreign relations of Israel? What are you seeing as possibly GENSEX there? This tban isn't about all WP:contentious topics. It's about WP:GENSEX, gender and sexuality. Valereee (talk) 16:02, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

@Valereee: no, this is an example of the kind of edits I'm talking about. JacktheBrown (talk) 16:05, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Oh, I see. Yes, in theory edits like these should be fine in an article that both

1. isn't bannered GENSEX
2. and, even if the article itself isn't bannered, aren't within a section that deals with GENSEX-related content.

You can read more at WP:TBAN, which uses a tban from 'weather' as an example. Valereee (talk) 16:16, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

@Valereee: in order to avoid risks, I will only edit pages about sexually non-controversial people, and therefore, as a consequence, articles about these people will be less precise in terms of style changes. JacktheBrown (talk) 16:27, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

@Valereee: I certainly can't edit the article about Valentina Petrillo, but it contains numerous errors:
– "Petrillo" is repeated in every sentence, creating many unnecessary repetitions;
– inside the infobox "Italy" is missing after "Naples", which is written "Napoli" (in Italian)
– etc.

"...and therefore, as a consequence, articles about these people will be less precise in terms of style changes." is now reality. JacktheBrown (talk) 18:27, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, the fact she is trans is interwoven throughout this article and would be difficult to avoid. Like literally you could change Naples > Naples, Italy in the infobox, and that's about it, and really how valuable is that? The vast majority of English speakers know Naples means Naples, Italy. It's Naples, Florida that really needs to be specified.

I'd have tripped over the fact she's referred to by her name three times within a single paragraph, too, but that para is about her transition, so yes, absolutely not something you should be editing.

I get that you're unhappy and believe this is a net negative for the encyclopedia. But the community was clear they wanted you out of this topic. That is just something you're going to have to deal with, and hopefully that you'll be able to learn from going forward. Valereee (talk) 18:55, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

@Valereee: no, I'm not sad about this, since this isn't a topic that interests me. It's the encyclopaedia that loses some quality, not me; this is absolutely not a provocation, but reality. JacktheBrown (talk) 19:02, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Why are we wasting my time on a subject that doesn't interest you, Jack? Valereee (talk) 19:45, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

@Valereee: because the new revision of the topic ban that I received is, in my opinion, not perfect, and although this topic doesn't interest me, I'm interested in correcting style errors in all topics, but since it's blocked I'm no longer interested in the GENSEX topic. In any case, the encyclopaedia loses something; I hope I will not be attacked harshly again for writing this last sentence, which is completely correct, as did a user here whose nickname I will not mention (however, their nickname is the second one written on my user page). JacktheBrown (talk) 19:52, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Of course it isn't perfect. And I'm not going to re-read that entire discussion to try to figure out what you're alluding to. If this was all in aid of making some point to me, realize I'm the frickin' choir. Please don't ping me to make another point. Ping me only if you have an actual question about an article you actually are interested in editing and aren't sure whether you are allowed. Valereee (talk) 20:07, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

@Valereee: it was an outburst, obviously not against you; I wanted my opinion to count. "Ping me only if you have an actual question about an article you actually are interested in editing and aren't sure whether you are allowed.": certainly, thank you very much. JacktheBrown (talk) 20:13, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Sock

Why are you making such an accusation? Enamait (talk) 15:50, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Reply

Hi, i know the page is ok now. I was complaining about still being indefinitely blocked from editing the Agnolotti page. This is because, months ago, I removed the nonsense from Xiamochel and his sockpuppets, and as a result, an admin blocked me for edit warring, that is why i am extremely disappointed and lost hopes. --Frukko (talk) 16:16, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

@Frukko: don't worry, I'm here to fight their socks. JacktheBrown (talk) 16:28, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

great, apppreciate. --Frukko (talk) 16:29, 29 August 2024 (UTC)