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Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 35

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Latest comment: 15 years ago by 24.68.247.69 in topic Facebook or Twitter?
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Soundbuzz (www.soundbuzz.com)

Latest comment: 15 years ago4 comments3 people in discussion

Apparently they do news bits? Specifically this item is in question from the Race in hip hop article. I'm guessing they're not too reliable, but does that mean everything from them should be considered just a rumor or outright lie? Anyways I'm still left wondering where this quote originated from. -- OlEnglish (Talk) 13:14, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

I couldn't find who's writing their stuff, but they are probably reliable since they are partners with the big media companies, and yahoo's launch deems them reliable enough to print their articles. If you want to find other sources to corroborate that story, they're easy to find.[1]. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 17:30, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
Smallbuzz.com doesn't load for me for some reason, but I would think that Yahoo Music News is reliable. If you want a better source, try [2]. Without reading the whole article, it appears the quote originates from this article. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:50, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
So if Yahoo Music News is generally speaking reliable, then MSN Music is reliable, too, generally speaking, correct? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:39, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

wolfram alpha-- moving discussion

Latest comment: 15 years ago20 comments9 people in discussion
  Moved from Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)

get the details regarding this 'computational knowledge engine' here: Wolfram Alpha

wolfram alpha raises some interesting questions regarding verifiability. obviously, the overriding one - WA seems to base its info on verifiable sources; does it follow that WA is a verifiable source? --Kaini (talk) 02:22, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

According to http://www15.wolframalpha.com/faqs.html and expanding the Education & Research section, they consider themselves to be 'peer reviewed' so they would be reliable. Tra (Talk) 08:56, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
I don't think it's peer reviewed in the same sense as a journal, and I also suspect they're using wikipedia for some of their info. They may be using the CIA fact book or something, though. I wouldn't consider them reliable without knowing a lot more. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 16:11, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
I think wolfram-alpha might count as a fairly reliable tertiary source... as such it has limited use. Rather than citing it directly, it would be better is to use it as a medium for finding reliable secondary sources to use (ie we should read and cite the various sources that wolfram-alpha cites, instead of citing wolfram-alpha directly) Blueboar (talk) 16:14, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
Actually, having looked into this further, I note that they don't always make it clear which bit of information comes from which source... and since they do list Wikipedia as a source, that makes it unreliable for use in Wikipedia. Blueboar (talk) 16:42, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Each individual page has a link to source information. The link specifies primary sources plus background sources and references. --Pleasantville (talk) 12:30, 18 May 2009 (UTC)


Checked "Mark Twain" and clicked on "sources" -- got the "one size fits all" list including WP. "Related links"? WP. No way it is RS. Collect (talk) 13:07, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

There are other entries that instead of listing a source, say "Computed by WolframMathematica" -- for example http://www50.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=x%5E2+sin%28x%29b --Pleasantville (talk) 13:17, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
Which is specifically "mathematical computation" and not needed to be "sourced" anyway. Can you provide an example of a text search where it lists a specific reliable source itself? So far, I have not found one. Collect (talk) 13:20, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
If it's doing its computation on the fly (which I would assume it is), then that means no one has reviewed the output. You might be able to use it as a tool to find a WP:RS. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 13:29, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
Except in the case of pure mathematics, the majority of the answers will be hybrids between curated data (curated by Wolfram staff curators) and calculations using Mathematica. Wolfram Alpha parses queries and generates answers. There is no data in the system that does not pass through the curation process except data streams (such as current weather information) which have also been through a vetting process. So the question is (a) whether Wolfram Research is an established and reputable publisher of information, and (b) whether Wolfram Research is a reputable and established source of reliable computation. --Pleasantville (talk) 13:34, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
But it's done by an algorithm and the output is produced on the fly. No one has reviewed the output produced. There's no guarentee that a bug hasn't been introduced into the algorithm resulting in flawed output. If software developers could produce applications without issues, Microsoft wouldn't be releasing a gazillion security fixes and updates every week. Not to mention the fact that it uses Wikipedia as a source. Keep in mind that reliable sources are those with a reputation for accuracy and fact-checking. Given that the site only went live a few days ago, it doesn't have such a reputation. Not RS. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 14:17, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
Yup... and here is an example of what you get when you try to produce information by algorithm... They suggest that we "enter a date"... so I tried May 1, 1776... and got lots of information as to the day of the week, the hours of day light, etc. I want to assume that this is all accurate... but then I see the box for "Observances for May 1, 1776 (United States)"... International Labor Day? Huh? .... clicked on "more"... Save the Rhino Day?... in 1776! Who knew? Did the Continental Congress all wear color coordinated ribbons on their lapels to mark these observances? Perhaps Thomas Jefferson took the day off to participate in a walk-a-thon to raise money for such a worthy cause!
Seriously... This obviously was generated by a machine that has been given the input that certain "observences" fall on a given day each year... but apparently no one thought to input a start date, before which the obsevance should not be listed. In other words, for historical data, this site is garbage. If you are trying to find out what happened on any given day in history, you are going to get faulty information. Given this, I have to wonder what programing problems exist in other areas as well.
No, we can not call this site reliable. Blueboar (talk) 14:29, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
And apparently the French Republic was involved in the Battle of Hastings (and this one is the default example they point to for searching "Historical events")... Did anyone check this stuff? (I do have to say that playing "find the error" is sort of fun on this site... but a bit too easy.) Blueboar (talk) 15:13, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
Even if the developers had thought of a start date (and end date), there's still no guarentee that the developers have correctly implemented it. Software development is tricky. What I always tell people is that if you ask for a bug-free program and I will show you "Hello World". That is to say that anything of sufficient complexity will have bugs. That's why you need a human being to review the output. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 15:37, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

I have raised the issue at WikiProject:Mathematics where it is most likely to be desirable for use. WikipProject Mathematics already makes extensive use of other Wolfram web resources, and also many of its participants are familiar with the capabilities of Mathematica, which is the calculating engine behind the site. --Pleasantville (talk) 15:43, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

The discussion at WikiProject:Mathematics is here[3]. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 16:50, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Our RS guideline tells us to used published sources with a reputation for fact checking and accuracy. The answers to wolfram queries don't fit the criteria of published, and Wolfram|Alpha does not at this point have a reputation of any kind, good or bad. So I cannot see how it could possibly be considered RS. Dlabtot (talk) 16:46, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Reading this discussion, I can see it wouldn't be reliable, particularly when they base their information on sources such as Wikipedia. I could still see the site being useful, if its output is verified through the sources it cites before being used on Wikipedia. Tra (Talk) 19:14, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

This Poynter Online column also urges caution: [4] Flowanda | Talk 19:31, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Maulana Ali

Latest comment: 15 years ago8 comments4 people in discussion

Can the book 'Muhammad The Prophet' written by Maulana Ali http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maulana_Muhammad_Ali be used as reliable sources for editing Islamic articles related to the prophet Muhammad.The publisher(of Muhammad the prophet) claims that some boooks of Maulana Ali have been declared as authentic Islamic literature by Al Azhar university http://www.muslim.org/books/azhar-cert.htm The foreword of the latest edition of the book was written by Sheikh Tantawi a reputed scholar from the Azhar University.--Firstcome (talk) 17:15, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

No, almost certainly not. First, its severely out of date. Secondly, the Ahmadiyya movement is at odds with mainstream Islam, and I would suspect very much at odds with scholarly opinion. It might possibly be used as a source for a notable alternative view, but not as a source for facts. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:04, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

The Azhar university ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Azhar_University ) represents mainstream islam.Books passed by this university as authentic literature should be considered as facts.Thank you--Firstcome (talk) 18:47, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

No, not remotely. At most these books agree with the view of conventional Sunni Islam. And why would a categorization as "authentic Islamic literature" by anyone affect reliability? De la terre à la lune is authentic French literature, but that does not mean that we have or even could shoot people to the moon in a giant canon. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 23:53, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Lol you are quite funny french is a language Islam is a religion I think The book can be used as It has been verified by Al Azhar university .Al Azhar periodically endorses material (Books) as authentic Islamic 'literature' According to wikipedia peer reviewed books can be used Notedgrant (talk) 12:41, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

First, has the book been "verified" and who says so? Up in your original question you said the publisher said that some of the authors books have been declared "authentic Islamic literature". So we don't even have any claim about this particular book. Secondly, we don't know what criteria Al Azhar applies and what they certify if they declare something "authentic literature". I would expect compatibility with a certain interpretation of Islam, but not factual correctness. The Catholic church holds that during the Eucharist the bread is physically transformed into meat. We don't accept that as factually true either. If you really want to push this further, we at least need clear, verifiable source that the book has been accepted, and a reliable source describing what Al Azhar implies by endorsing it. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:27, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

http://www.muslim.org/books/azhar-cert.htm This is the link showing AL Azhar accepts it This is what they say about it "The Department hereby confirms that the above mentioned books contains useful knowledge and do not include anything that contradicts the Religion of Islam" As per wikipedia guidelines In significant world religious denominations with organized academies or recognized theological experts in religious doctrine and scholarship, the proceedings of official religious bodies and the journals or publications of recognized and well-regarded religious academies and experts can be considered reliable sources for religious doctrine and views where such views represent significant viewpoints on an article subject.The letter sent by Al azhar to the publishers is the only source in English and the foreword written by Sheikh Tantawi confirms it.--Firstcome (talk) 15:20, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I am going to assume, from reading between the lines here, that Maulana Ali's 'Muhammad The Prophet' is controvercial... that it says things that other scholars or religious leaders disagree with. That is not a reason to declare it unreliable. Scholars disagree all the time.
"The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is Verifiability, not Truth"... so it does not matter whether any scholarly source is "officially approved" in terms of religious orthodoxy or not. The key to situations where scholars disagree on facts is to discuss what the different scholars say, by attributing each author's opinion to that author... phrase things in terms of opinion, and don't argue about which is "True". What is Verifiable is that Maulana Ali's book says certain things about Muhammad or Islam or what ever. Discuss this neutrally, and then compare it with what other scholars say on the matter. And don't say which is "right". Blueboar (talk) 16:18, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Failed verification

Latest comment: 15 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

I would like some help on whether the source [5] fails the be a reliable source for the statement that "Straights tend to use an approach that focuses on the chiropractor and the treatment model, whereas mixers tend to focus on the patient and the patient's situation". Thanks in advance. 24.68.247.69 (talk) 19:39, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Given that the source says that the entire "Straight vs. Mixer" differentiation is outdated, I would say No, it isn't reliable for that. At best it should be phrased in a historical context... that at one time these factions approached treatment in this way. That said... I am always warry of PDF files. Was this submitted to some sort of peer review or is it just the opinion of the author. If the latter, what is the reputation of the author as far as reliability goes? Blueboar (talk) 17:10, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
No, it is not being used in a histroical context, and is currently being used to support the statement quoted above. It was also not peer-reviewed, but I believe it was released by a government agency, the Agency for Health Care Policy and Research. It is a good point that it says the straight/mixer dichotomy is outdated, as the abstract of Chiropractic currently mentions this dichotomy without stating that it is outdated. In addition, I tend to believe that nothing in the source supports the actual statement, and that the source is not being represented neutrally. 24.68.247.69 (talk) 02:31, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Vaginal exercises, fellatio and anal sex - Is a primary source required?

Latest comment: 15 years ago25 comments8 people in discussion

It is factual that David Duke published the book, Finders-Keepers, under the pseudonym, Dorothy Vanderbilt. But it can't be substantiated that the book, Finder's Keepers, contained advice on "vaginal contraction exercises, fellatio and anal sex." Why? Because the book is unavailable and the secondary sources cited do not actually cite the primary source, Finder's Keepers. If someone can link to the book, Finders-Keepers, the matter can be resolved. Until then, it's hearsay and does not belong on Wikipedia.

Even though David Duke is widely despised, Wikipedia ought to maintain its standards and require that extreme claims be backed by primary sources, especially when the secondary sources don't cite the primary source!

Shady References:

1. The 1992 article, "The Picayune Catches Up With David Duke", does not cite a primary source, it defers only to this mysterious book having received front-page play in the Shreveport Journal on August 21, 1990. The article does not provide any reference but claims the book deals with "Vaginal exercises, fellatio and anal sex."[6]

2. The book, Troubled Memory, by Lawrence N. Powell, plays on the phrase with "vaginal contraction exercises, fellatio and anal sex". But Powell does not cite the book Finder's Keepers nor any page number. Powell's claim is totally unsubstantiated. Check Powell's book, page 448, here:[7]

3. The ADL article discusses Duke's pseudonym but cites nothing for the book's sexual content.[8]

--Bureaucracy (talk) 02:33, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

FYI, "Shady Reference #2", Troubled Memory, is published by the University of North Carolina Press. The book is thoroughly footnoted, though the notes for page 448 are not available on Google.   Will Beback  talk  02:50, 5 May 2009 (UTC)


You have made an error. The book Troubled Memory is available in its entirety.[9] The book, Troubled Memory, does not cite the primary source, Finder's Keepers, yet it characterizes the book with, "vaginal contraction exercises, fellatio and anal sex." That's shady scholarship. Again, I care not for publishing prestige, especially when negligence is involved.

--Bureaucracy (talk) 03:10, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

A primary source would not only not be required, it would be discouraged in this instance. If notable/reputable pubs write about it, it's notable. IronDuke 03:17, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
It is not "available in its entirety". It is availible in limited preview. However, there is no point in "footnoting" a summary of the contents of a book, since it by definition epitomises the whole text. There's nothing 'shady' about that at all. Paul B (talk) 16:49, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Are you saying Wikipedia defers to notable/reputable publishing houses as the authority on the content of a book, and not the actual book itself? --Bureaucracy (talk) 03:57, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

No. We are saying that the best way for us, the anonymous editors behind wikipedia, to judge if a neutral encyclopedia would mention this detail is to see if someone else mentioned it first. In very narrow cases are we to use primary sources, mainly situations where detail gleaned from primary sources offers necessary context for the subject as a whole and it would be silly to demand secondary sourcing. I don't think this is one of those cases. Protonk (talk) 04:15, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, asking for proof is silly. So far, Wikipedia is relying on three sources which fail to backup a serious charge.

What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow man. — Hillel--Bureaucracy (talk) 04:38, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

  • Wait, what? Are you saying that the three sources cited are insufficient to make the claims made in the article? If that is the case, it can be discussed on the article talk page--that isn't specifically an issue for this noticeboard. If you are arguing that access to the primary source is require for editors to verify a claim made by an otherwise reliable secondary source, I would disagree with you most of the time. For some extreme claims or claims where there is doubt as to the reliability of the secondary source (doubt from a source besides a single wp editor), then we can talk about comparing claims about the text to the text itself. But there is a difference between removing material on the claims that it is hearsay (a legal term of art which has no real meaning in wikipedia) and comparing claims in secondary sources which are explicitly falsified by the primary text. Protonk (talk) 04:46, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
FYI, I see that Troubled Memory has won a couple of awards:
  • Winner of the 2000 Lillian Smith Book Award, Southern Regional Council
  • Winner of the 2000 Kemper and Leila Williams Prize in Louisiana History, Louisiana Historical Association
  • A 2000 Booklist Holocaust Literature Best of the Year Selection
Per the publisher's website.[10]   Will Beback  talk  05:29, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Protonk, Yes. The wiki sources do not substantiate that Duke's book offers advice on "vaginal exercises, fellatio and anal sex." The Wiki page cites authors, Lawrence Powell and Jeanne W. Amend - but these authors failed to consult Duke's book, Finder's Keepers, because it's out of print and not available online. Powell's bibliography doesn't even list the book, because he couldn't find it, yet he characterized it without having read it. Here's the claim with no footnote, it's in the first paragraph[11]


BTW....I was directed here from the talk page by User:   Will Beback  talk  02:50, 5 May 2009 (UTC) who seems to want to defer rather than fact check. --Bureaucracy (talk) 05:55, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

  • Well, I think that we can roughly say that the Powell book is reliable (assuming that list of rewards is accurate and given our policy on reliable sources). We are down to the assertion that Powell didn't read the book in question. I don't think we can make that accusation without some evidence. the omission of the book in the bibliography may be telling or it may be benign. I don't think that the books being out of print is sufficient to support your accusation, especially because one of the principal subjects of the book is Duke. Protonk (talk) 06:05, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Powell's book is published by a university press, has won awards, and Powell is a Professor at Tulane specializing in this and related topics[12]. Of course this book is a reliable source. And, but that's by he way, has anybody tried getting a copy of Finder's Keepers via a good academic library with competent staff? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 06:18, 5 May 2009 (UTC)


Perhaps it would be appropriate to contact Powell. Troubled Memory was published only nine-years ago, and it is possible that he still has his copy of Finders Keepers, or a partial copy. If (possibly a big if) he was concerned enough about this doubt to take action to clarify the matter, he could make small amounts of Finders Keepers available online without breach of copywrite.Ordinary Person (talk) 06:38, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Also, good lord. There are literally a half dozen other book sources noting the same connection. I don't think this can be attributed to Powell, Tyler and the ADL making up the claim. Protonk (talk) 06:49, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Protonk, I agree, there are half a dozen sources characterizing the book as giving sexual advice. There seems to be two competing descriptions, one is dating advise for women and the other is "vaginal exercises, fellatio and anal sex." Not one of these sources cites the book itself, not even a footnote in these scholarly works.

Perhaps these scholars are chasing each others' tail. Perhaps they know they won't be held accountable because it's David Duke. Or, perhaps Duke did indeed published a pornographic book.

I'm with Ordinary Person. Should I contact Powell or is that the responsibility of the Administrators?--Bureaucracy (talk) 07:18, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

    • At this point I'm not going to entertain the notion that all of these books have fabricated the same claim. There is a more likely but still incredible claim to be made that someone like Tyler fabricated the passage and later scholars just repeated the falsehood. That, to me, is only compelling in the presence of positive evidence. Is there some reliable source that makes the claim that Duke did not author the book? That the book did not contain those passages? This kind of this is a content decision and so should be made on the article talk page but my read is that we can't in good conscience throw out ~9 sources because we don't see confirmatory primary documents. If you want to email Powell and ask him, please do so. Protonk (talk) 07:37, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
      • Also, this is not to say that I think the sentence belongs in the article. It's unconnected to the rest of the paragraph and seems designed to show how lewd Duke was while writing under a pseudonym. I know that both Finders-Keepers and African Atto were written in persona, arguably one that Duke projected upon the intended audience. The article should use sources supporting a claim like that to contextualize the segment. But until that happens we might consider just cutting the sentence. Protonk (talk) 07:44, 5 May 2009 (UTC)


Thanks, Protonk. I suppose it is not impossible that these sources have all relied on a set of false sources, but I think that should be enough weight for now. (To my mind, suggesting that Duke wrote such a book only enhances his reputation by implying that at one time he wrote something potentially helpful.) Still, it would be nice if someone can lay their hands on a copy of Finders Keepers, so that a couple of confirming quotes can be placed in the article. I'm emailing Powell anyway: you never know your luck. Ordinary Person (talk) 07:26, 5 May 2009 (UTC) Treat it as true, until something contradicts it. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 07:49, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

There are many cases in which secondary sources discuss primary sources that are not readily available. The primary source may be a rare manuscript or a long out of print book which exists in only a few copies. We have to trust the secondary sources according to their reliability, not according to the degree of access we have to the primary sources. Whether or not the sentence belongs in the article is not a matter for this noticeboard. Paul B (talk) 13:41, 5 May 2009 (UTC)


I did contact Professor Powell, explained the circumstances, and he gave a very helpful reply:

I did look at the book, and should have cited it. During Duke's meteoric rise in Louisiana politics in the late 1980s and early '90s, the PAC we set up to expose him came into possession of Finders-Keepers, courtesy of independent journalist Patsy Sims. She had interviewed Duke extensively for her book, The Klan (NY: Dorset Press, 1978). On p. 212, she discusses Duke's clumsy efforts to enlist her help in placing his sex manual with her literary agent. She also talked with klansmen who had been alienated by Duke's over-the-top narcissism . When Sims sent us her personal copy of Finders-Keepers, we made copies for distribution to the media, and deposited one photocopy with the Amistad Research Center at Tulane University. It is in its "Louisiana Coalition Against Racism and Nazism" collection. (For what it's worth, Patsy Sims can be reached at Goucher College in Baltimore, where she heads the MFA Program in Non-Fiction.)

I visited the collection today and photocopied pertinent pages of Finders-Keepers. Arlington Press (a neo-nazi house, if memory serves) released it in 1976. Duke wrote it under the pseudonym James Konrad and Dorothy Vanderbilt. I'm more than happy to send you Chapter Ten: "Toward a More Fulfilling Sex-Life."

Meanwhile, here are a few representative quotations that clinch the argument:

p. 115-- "One simple exercise you can do (and you can do it any time of the day--driving to work, sitting at your desk, or watching TV--and nobody will know you are doing it) involves merely contracting the vaginal muscles. It is not difficult to learn. Get in a sitting position, and imagine you are urinating (sounds gross, doesn't it?). Now use the same muscles you would use to stop the urination. Do you feel the muscles tighten?....Another exercise you can do involves the vibrator."

pp. 117-8-- "In fellating your lover, you can assume any position that is comfortable and in close proximity to his penis, In your normal foreplay of kissing this area, kiss him up and down the shaft of the penis and lubricate it quite well with your tongue."

p. 119-- "A very sensitive and erogenous area to both yourself and your lover is the anus....Some women occasionally place (carefully) one of their fingers in it during intercourse when body position makes it possible Most men really enjoy such activity on your part during lovemaking....Many couples today see nothing wrong with limited anal sex."

I think this nails it.
Ordinary Person (talk) 03:54, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Ordinary Person, nice one. I think Duke's pages needs a new section: Pornographer. Can you forward me the photocopies or post them? I'd like to see.... since Powell went to the trouble of copying them.--Bureaucracy (talk) 06:28, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

I was curious to see whether all BLP articles are handled in a similar manner, so I went to W.H. Auden. Auden wrote plenty of porn, but his bio handles the issue in a way that is delicate in the extreme. I don't anticipate that this will be the case with David Duke. --4.233.125.91 (talk) 07:24, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
I will put them up somewhere when I get them, but in my own opinion, sex advice of this kind is not pornographic.Ordinary Person (talk) 07:37, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
My apologies: I foolishly neglected to send Professor Powell my mailing address. That's the cause of the delay. I have now sent it to him. Ordinary Person (talk) 03:15, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

National Enquirer

Latest comment: 15 years ago21 comments12 people in discussion

Is the National Enquirer (in print since 1926 and not known for inventing stories) a reliable source? The issue in contention is material it published about David Copperfield, namely:

  1. Details about the alleged rape of a 19-yr old woman on Copperfield's private island in the Caribbean
  2. Details about his secret children

This is the revision containing the details taken from the National Enquirer [13] (See sections on FBI investigation and Children). ► RATEL ◄ 00:24, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

"Not known for inventing stories"? WP:Editors_will_sometimes_be_wrong Are tabloids often right? Yep. Are they RS by WP standards? Nope. If the material is notable, it should end up in a citable place, until then best to leave tabloids out of BLPs. Collect (talk) 00:32, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
The basic story of Copperfield's rape investigation were reported all over the place, so that is not in contention. The Enquirer published additional details about the case, including details of what the woman in question did on returning to the USA (rape kit, hospital, etc) as per an interview with her friend. In addition, its disclosures about Copperfield's secret children were reprinted by other sources, which quoted the Enquirer, and included a statement by the alleged mother's lawyer. Copperfield did not deny the children story. (To Collect: because of my unhappy history with you, I would appreciate it if you would bow out and allow other editors to comment here please. Thanks!)
Before the Enquirer is condemned as a "tabloid", I think it should be shown that they have a history of unreliability. The word "tabloid" is not pejorative per se, it simply describes a newspaper whose pages, usually five columns wide, are about one-half the size of a standard-sized newspaper page.► RATEL ◄ 01:13, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
No way that the Enquirer should ever be considered a reliable source. They simply do not have a reputation for factual accuracy. To many times that they have gotten the story wrong, printed gossip as if it were news, or simply made something up. Blueboar (talk) 01:20, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Curiously enough, wehere I have input to make, I shall make it. Checking out several dozen queries, I have yet to find one where this tabloid is considered a "reliable source" which has absolutely nothing to do with any personal issues you may appear to have. And the NE definitely fits the pejorative use of "tabloid" <g>. [14], [15] and so on. Collect (talk) 01:33, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
(ec)An essay and two examples in WP space where it was deemed not RS are not enough? I found, oddly enough, absolutely no discussions on WP where it was deemed reliable. There are 395 WP hits in article talk for "National Enquirer" and "reliable" and in none of the first 80 at least is it considered "reliable." With no WP consensus for it being "reliable" out of more than 80 examined, I would suggest that it is unlikely that it will be considered "reliable" here as defined by WP:RS or WP:V. And, of course, the large number of lawsuits it has lost may be a factor as well. Collect (talk) 02:42, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
You want more stories about "National Enquirer" being unreliable? There aren't that many stories about their reliability "problems" because nobody takes them seriously. I'm astounded that anybody would consider taking them seriously from an encyclopedic viewpoint. Have you read an issue? Bhimaji (talk) 03:21, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
The Enquirer has had a few mistakes, like most papers. However, the wikipedia article on the Enquirer states that "In recent years it has sought to establish a reputation for reliable journalism and had some success, often scooping other media..." I just don't see any evidence so far of the paper having a wilful and reckless disregard for truth, as some tabloid papers obviously do. ► RATEL ◄ 03:46, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
The expectation for sources to be used on BLP articles is not simply that they lack a willful disregard for the truth. Protonk (talk) 04:21, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Well then, why don't we have a list somewhere of news sources that can or cannot be used in BLPs? ► RATEL ◄ 04:35, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Because such a list could never be exhaustive and it would be better served by Wikipedia:BLP#Sources and Wikipedia:Reliable sources. I'm not sure what the pressure here is. We aren't in a rush. If wikipedia fails to include tawdry details about Copperfield for a few years, it doesn't matter. Protonk (talk) 04:56, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Not reliable. — e. ripley\talk 04:57, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
As Protonk indicates, such a list could never be exhaustive. What's more, each source still needs to be evaluated on a case by case basis. If you look at this thread[16], there are certain, very limited cases where otherwise reliable sources such as Time Magazine and the Washington Post are not reliable for certain claims in certain articles.
I hesitate to even mention this, for a variety of different reasons including the potential for misuse, but you can try this.[17] It's purely my own personal project and not affiliated with Wikipedia in any way. It's certainly not exhaustive, tends to be conservative on what is considered reliable, and still requires an editor's judgement to determine if the source is actually reliable for a specific claim. Further, just because it finds a source doesn't necessarily mean that it's reliable and just because it doesn't find a source doesn't mean a claim isn't verifiable. Use it with extreme care. If it's misused, I'll take it down. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 13:48, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Excuse my ignorance, but I always thought NE was mainly known as a publisher of ffringe theories. Doesn't sound very reliable to me. Peter jackson (talk) 10:22, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
Due to it's negative reputation for accuracy and fact-checking, it is not in my opinion a WP:RS. If NE is actually right about something of signficance, surely other WP:RS will have covered it so just use those as references (assuming they pass WP:BLP). A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 10:41, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

The National Enquirer is possibly the prime example of the negative use of the word "tabloid". Not the physical size of the magazine, but the malicious and unreliable gossip magazine usage. Our own article uses it as such an example. Tabloid#As a sensational, gossip-filled newspaper says: "Supermarket tabloids are particularly notorious for the over-the-top sensationalizing of stories, the facts of which can often be called into question. These tabloids - such as The Globe and The National Enquirer - often use aggressive and usually mean-spirited tactics to sell their issues." Want examples of the National Enquirer being called unreliable? Here, the Washington Post. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/08/AR2009050802092.html "The reputable media don't traffic in that sort of tenuous speculation about people's lives ... This is why "tabloid journalism" is used as a put-down..." The story is specifically about the rare case when the Enquirer may have gotten it right, but it's also a fine source on the general criticism of the magazine's tactics. Here's another, from the Daily Telegraph (Australia) http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,25424888-5001026,00.html "The previously unreliable celebrity gossip tabloid claims it brought in "experts" to review Winfrey's medical history. These anonymous sources say the star's battle with her weight is due to a faulty thyroid that will send her to an "early grave." Reportedly (i.e. not remotely accurately), she's considering surgery to have the thyroid removed." In this case the criticizing paper is similarly a tabloid, of course ... so it goes ... :-)--GRuban (talk) 18:29, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

I cannot vouch for the legitimacy of every single photo, but there does seem to be a recurring theme that begs the question - is National Enquirer or Weekly World News for humor/entertainment purposes only? I think so. Tycoon24 (talk) 18:58, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
Very clearly not a reliable source - National Enquirer has a very poor reputation on fact checking. Quoting from this Newsweek article about The Enquirer [18] (page 4)
Mishlai (talk) 09:30, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
How dare you question the credibility of my beloved Weekly World News? I'll sic Bat Boy on you!!!--Goodmorningworld (talk) 09:34, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Should this particular Daily Mail article be used as a WP:RS?

Latest comment: 15 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Is the following article reliable An explosion of disbelief - fresh doubts over 9/11 for the following claim: "The title of Griffin's bestselling book The New Pearl Harbor, published in 2004, makes a reference to the conspiracy theory that President Roosevelt allowed the Japanese to assault the U.S. fleet in 1941, in order to force America into World War II."? The part that I am questioning is whether this book is a best seller. This is a book promoting 9/11 conspiracy theories which are popular online but not so much in print. The article cited is being used in World Trade Center controlled demolition conspiracy theories. I searched the archives and the Daily Mail has come up before[19] and the opinions were, shall we say, mixed so I'm just asking about this particular article. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:22, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

perhaps you could say "described by the Daily Mail as ...". In general newpapers seem to attach the words 'prize winning' and 'bestseller' at the slightest opportunity.
The Daily Mail should be fine for a book review. However it's our call whether to include "bestselling", unless the Mail has its own bestseller list like the New York Times does. It could have been a reference to Amazon.com's Bestsellers in Books status, where it is currently #76 in the Terrorism and Freedom Fighters category on Amazon UK and #14 in the September 11 category on Amazon US. There's also a conspiracy-oriented site that says the book was on Amazon's Top 100 list for several weeks,.[20] but I don't know how to verify that they mean the global top 100 list which is constantly updated. So while there is some support for the term "bestseller", I don't know how much weight we should attach to bestseller within a category. Wording it as "Griffin's The New Pearl Harbor" should be fine. Squidfryerchef (talk)
I agree with Squid... If we were talking about an article about Griffin or his book I could see this being relevant, but within the context of the controlled demo article whether a source is a bestseller or not seems irrelevant (and mentioning it smacks of promotional puffery). Best to omit the word "bestseller". Blueboar (talk) 15:08, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

The Chinese Room (2009) vs. Chinese room

Latest comment: 15 years ago13 comments4 people in discussion

In order to check whether the 2009 film The Chinese Room is relevant to the Chinese room article, I contacted the director/writer of the film, and got this response:


Clicking on "pictures" on this webpage starts a slide show, one of the pictures clearly showing a frame from the abovementioned depiction.

I think Rulf can be considered a reliable source for information on what the movie is about, in fact he is the top authority, but that view is not shared universally. Paradoctor (talk) 21:55, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately, a personal e-mail is not a reliable source. We have no way to verify that it actually exists and was sent to you by Mr. Rulf. (not saying he didn't... just that we can not verify it). In addition, such corresponcence is considered WP:Original research. Blueboar (talk) 22:06, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
My question is about reliability, not verifiability. For the sake of discussion, let's assume the mail is available from Wikisource, and attribution is not in doubt. For the OR angle, I'd like an explanation of precisely how you think it applies. I'm not making "interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims", neither do I "rely on unclear or inconsistent passages". What I am saying is that Rulf is a reliable source in the context given. Which takes us back the actual subject of this noticeboard, and the reason I came here: What reason is there to believe that the creator of a work is not a reliable source for information about his own work, and which part of WP:RS supports this? Paradoctor (talk) 13:18, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
As far as Wikipedia goes, reliability and verifiability go hand in hand. WP:RS is a guideline explaining and expanding on one aspect of WP:V. If something isn't verifiable, we don't consider it reliable. Blueboar (talk) 13:44, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
I explicitly stipulated verifiability in my previous reply. Can we please concentrate on the reliability question? Paradoctor (talk) 20:51, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
Remember, Wikipedia is not the be all and end all of information. If something can not be discussed on Wikipedia due to our rules, You have the option to discuss it in other venues... and who knows, it may get picked up and get discussed in some thing we can cite. Blueboar (talk) 13:44, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
What has this got to do with anything? The only discussion going on is with Dlabtot about an editorial decision. You're not going to tell me that Wikipedia is not the place for that kind of discussion, are you? Paradoctor (talk) 20:51, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
It won't be easy to get a paragraph about the movie into the article. Pop-culture sections have historically been a headache on WP, and it's especially unlikely you'd get consensus to add one to a tightly-written science article. While I'm a mergist and generally suggest that people thinking of starting an article ( or trying to save one from being deleted ) should find an article on a parent topic and start a paragraph first, I'd have to suggest the opposite in this case as the topics are too far apart. If you can get multiple sources about the movie, then go ahead and create an article. Then you can add a hatnote to the Chinese Room article showing that Chinese Room (film) exists. Squidfryerchef (talk) 14:24, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for your input. "won't be easy": I like tough nuts. After all, I am the Paradoctor. ;) "culture sections" ... "headache on WP": If the argumentative style displayed by Dlabtot and Blueboar is representative, then I'm not surprised. Anyway, this is off-topic, I'd like to concentrate here on either getting useful arguments/facts, or establishing to my satisfaction that this noticeboard can't deliver on its promise in this case. Paradoctor (talk) 20:51, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

From reading the talk page discussion, Talk:Chinese room#Chinese Room in popular culture, it looks like your main problem isn't showing that this film is about the Chinese room puzzle, it's that the other editors of the article don't think the film is notable enough to be mentioned. In fact, I suspect that if you could show the film were notable, that you wouldn't even need the source that said that "this film is based on this puzzle", the film title and subject would be enough to make it clear that it was, unless reliable sources specifically said that it wasn't. So it's not that this noticeboard can't deliver on its promise, it's that you're asking the wrong question, you don't want to meet WP:RS, you want to meet WP:N. For that you want to show multiple unrelated reliable sources writing about the movie. Roger Ebert would be a great start, he seems to be the standard most other film critics are measured by ...--GRuban (talk) 21:14, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree, if the movie was notable on its own, we probably wouldn't be discussing this. But as I stated in the discussion, notability is about articles, and it is too narrow as criterion in this situation. Anyway, I came here not just because of the Chinese room discussion. Dlabtot raised the issue of whether a creator is a reliable source for information about his own work, and pointed me here. That's why I came here, to get either a good argument or a pointer to the relevant bit of policy. Regrettably, I've come up dry so far. How can anyone seriously think that the creator is not a reliable source regarding the inspiration for his work, its interpretation, or a summary of it? Anyone gives me a good answer to that one, and I'll be one happy camper. Paradoctor (talk) 22:38, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
Leaving the notability issue asside... The creator of a work is certainly reliable (small r) when it comes to a statement about the inspiration for his work... but for us to call it a Reliable Source (with a capital R) it has to appear in a published form. That's what I was getting at when I discussed WP:V being more important than WP:RS. A personal email is not considered published. If Mr. Rulf states his inspiration in some venue that we can equate with publication (in a published interview, for example, or even on his website) then we would be able to call it RS. But not in the form of a personal e-mail. Blueboar (talk) 23:07, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
Thank you, you've just reduced my WikiStress level quite a bit. I was almost ready for another reading of Desiderata. ;)
Regarding the verifiability issue, I assure you that it will be adequately addressed. Regards, Paradoctor (talk) 23:30, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Is this a reliable source for a not so controversial claim

Latest comment: 15 years ago6 comments3 people in discussion

Is this a reliable source for documenting the location a Michael Jackson music video was shot in, the main page of the site being this. I'm concerned that it cannot be used, particularly when the article in question is already a GA and the source might not be brilliant. — R2 00:34, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

No, as you suspect, it is not a reliable source. The website accepts submitted articles and asks contributors to "And naturally check your facts and the spelling of proper names and foreign or trickier words." [21] No indication that there is any editorial fact-checking or oversight. Abecedare (talk) 02:50, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
They don't even get the name of the song right. It's They Don't Care About Us. These are academic journals which require a login, however, a Google search engine indicates that it might contain the information that you are looking for.[22] [23] A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 03:29, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
FWIW, here is the only relevant bit about the song in the first reference A Quest For Knowledge found:

Yet, each time the savage is held against the civilised, some kind of counter force is unleashed and the primitive falls prey to romanticism and commercial consumerism which turn rebellious savagery into banality, neutralising its power of denunciation, as in Michael Jackson’s 1996 music video clip They Don’t Care about Us (directed by Spike Lee), shot in the Dona Marta favela of Rio.

Use it if it helps, although I would expect better refs to be available. Abecedare (talk) 03:46, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
Thanks, Abecedare. I don't have subscriptions to those journals so I can't read them myself. All I know is that they matched my search terms. That's why I said "might". For all I know, they say "contrary to popular misconception, They Don't Care About Us was NOT filmed in Rio de Janeiro." Anyway, I did another search and found articles from MSNBC, USA Today and The Guardian none of which require a login. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 12:44, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. — R2 14:42, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Facebook or Twitter?

Latest comment: 15 years ago7 comments6 people in discussion

Can a post on Facebook or Twitter ever be a WP:RS? There's an ongoing discussion at Talk:Tea Party protests#Mike Huckabee. The background (at least from my possibly slanted POV) is that on April 29 President Obama commented on the Tea Party protests. On the same day, former Governor Huckabee posted on Facebook and Twitter "Astounded Pres. Obama still doesn't know tea parties were led by moms, dads worried about future...that's serious and no game!" Huckabee's official website links to both, so I assume they aren't fake accounts. JCDenton2052 (talk) 15:33, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Facebook and Twitter accounts might pass muster as Self-published primary sources for use in an article on the account holder (ie Huckabee's Facebook page might be used as a source on the Mike Huckabee bio article), but not in other articles. If Gov. Huckabee's comment is notable enough for inclusion, a secondary source will have picked up on it and reported it. No need to quote from Facebook or Twitter. Blueboar (talk) 15:42, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
If a publiched news source quoted the Twitter, then the Twitter becomes a primary source and doesn't need to pass SPS. Whether it's useful to our article to quote Twitter is up for debate. Squidfryerchef (talk) 16:54, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
Huckabee's Twitter post was cited by Think Progress, but unfortunately that's not an RS because of Wikipedia's bright-line rule against blogs. JCDenton2052 (talk) 17:27, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
That "bright-line" rule against blogs isnt so bright-line per discussions going on in many places. IF the twitter or facebook quote is useful and needed, ignore all rules comes to mind. I think we see community consensus going against a clear cut line against all blogs.Camelbinky (talk) 04:07, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
Depending on how they are used. Still problematic in WP:BLP unless published by a good WP:RS and usually best only for opinion unless it is an individuals whose grasp of facts is impeccable. CarolMooreDC (talk) 15:54, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Twitter is a micro-blogging service, and as such, anything there can be used in line with WP:SPS. 24.68.247.69 (talk) 00:25, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

encyclopedia.jrank.org and "contributed articles"

Latest comment: 15 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Does anyone here know what the story is with the "contributed articles" at the http://encyclopedia.jrank.org website? That seems to host Encyclopedia Britannica 1911 stuff, but also some more recent "contributed" articles. See here for examples of uses of this link. An example of an article is here. The disclaimer says "Content on this website is from high-quality, licensed material originally published in print form. You can always be sure you're reading unbiased, factual, and accurate information.", but I would like to have more information than that. The main page says: "NEW Contributed articles – Articles from professional writers on a wide variety of topics." Should we need more details than that before using their articles as sources for ours? Carcharoth (talk) 01:16, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Having looked at the Encyclopedia's articles for Danny Elfman and Dante Alighieri, I'd say not an RS. Since the author of the text is not identified, and its original source is not stated, there is no way to tell how reliable any particular article is. (The Elfman article appears to be original text of unknown accuracy; the Dante article is taken from Medieval art: a topical dictionary By Leslie Ross without attribution).
Disclaimer? Just what is it disclaiming? Peter jackson (talk) 10:17, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Sources for Genetically modified food controversies

Latest comment: 15 years ago6 comments4 people in discussion

The writings of Jeffery M. Smith were used as a prominent source for this article, for example the book/website "seeds of deception" published by Yes! books and this news article

Are these appropriate sources for this article? Tim Vickers (talk) 17:42, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I have trouble thinking that Smith being used as a reference twice out of the 55 sources used for the article would make him a "prominent source". Smith is a leading GMO critic and investigative journalist/author so his critism is relevant to the topic. Smith's seedsofdeception.com link is used because his best selling book that details the same events is not available online. The book, which you need to buy to read, is a RS so I see no problem with book extracts from the authors website that you can read free. Wayne (talk) 11:16, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
Neither of these sources are reliable. The book, on the other hand, may be a reliable source. If the extracts on the website accurately reflect the book, and the book was both published by a major publisher and not used for statements of bald fact (as opposed to opinion), and said opinions are notable ("Smith is a leading GMO critic," if true, would make his opinions notable), then the book would be a reliable source. Hipocrite (talk) 14:35, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
Cite the book, not the website. Non-free sources are OK. Blueboar (talk) 15:12, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
OK, so if I understand correctly Smith's book is OK as a source of opinion as a notable critic of GMOs, but should not be used as a source for either factual statements about genetic modification, or a source for statements about other people's beliefs? As an alternative, would it be preferable to replace citations of this particular person's views with citations to statements from prominent non-governmental organisations, such as Greenpeace, The Sierra Club or Friends of the Earth? Tim Vickers (talk) 16:52, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
These sources can be used the same way... as citations for statements as to the opinions of each group. Blueboar (talk) 18:36, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
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