Talk:Herd behavior

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus. --violet/riga (t) 4 July 2005 21:21 (UTC)

Move to Herd mentality

Google stats: 26,000 for "herd behavior", 55,400 for "herd mentality".   —Teknic^T-M-C 09:12, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Support. Would sidestep squabbles between the jihadists of -iour and the crusaders of -ior, at least as regards the article location (which would appear to have been yoghurt-moved at some point in the past). –Hajor 18:21, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Support, indeed. AE/BE neutral phrasings are lovely when they're available. James F. (talk) 10:20, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose. It is not the same thing, as not all herd behaviour involves herd mentality. Philip Baird Shearer 23:17, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose very strongly. There certainly is such a thing as herd behaviour, it is deeply controversial whether there is such a thing as a herd mentality. Such a move would amount to taking a clear (and minority) POV on a technical issue. seglea 4 July 2005 17:20 (UTC)

Late comments

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• Oppose Strongly. Herd Behavior is very much different from group behavior. They describe a certain string of economic problem from a different point of view. Herd Behavior can be regared as a sub-subject of group behavior. Specifically, herd behavior describes a situation where people made decisions sequentially while group behaivor does not.Dec 23, 2005. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by BigTiger (talk • contribs) 00:29, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

• Oppose (did i do that right? lol.) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.129.49.65 (talk • contribs) 16:24, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose They are two distinct mentalities, and, although comparable, are not the same and thus should not be considered so.--Tiresais 14:44, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Macro and Micro Scale issues. A Clique has a different psychology than a mob has a different psychology than a think tank has a different psychology than a demographic has a different psychology than a Nation. --209.129.49.65 23:24, 3 February 2006 (UTC) --Prometheuspan 23:25, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Removed link to groupthink

I've removed the link to groupthink from the discussion of political demonstrations. As you'll see if you take the link, groupthink is a term used for ways of thinking that develop in committees and other such slow, reflective decision making bodies. It isn't relevant to a situation like a street demonstration. seglea 4 July 2005 17:20 (UTC)

The resistors analogy

Is it really "resistors in parallel" or "in series" -- I have no idea except that it seems like the larger the herd then the lower the intelligence, and with resistors the conductivity would increase at higher numbers if they were in parallel, and decreas if they were in series. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.1.0.235 (talk • contribs) 05:02, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia

Considering the definitions here, wouldn't Wikipedia too be an example of herd mentality? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.191.224.120 (talk • contribs) 21:09, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is more of an example of an emergent phenomena, or what is sometimes called in the social science literature self-organizing behavior or a spontaneous order. The order that emerges does not require the herding instinct that may be seen in higher-order vertebrates; e.g., emergence is easily seen in beehives and termite colonies. N2e 15:48, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Individuals

"...in many cases the term "herd behaviour" is strikingly inappropriate for the phenomena, since the group is reacting under the orders or influence of a charismatic leader..." Huh? So acting under orders is an excuse for any stupid thing they might do, regardless of what it is? I realize this is a delicate subject, but it's essential that someone come up with a better idea for this part. Orders are no excuse -- remember the Nazis on trial at Nuremberg? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.219.51.225 (talk • contribs) 12:51, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Herd Intelligence and Resistors

Is there a good reason not to just take out that section? It's uncited and sounds like a bunch of pop psychology pap. How exactly do you suppose they measured the IQ of a herd of people anyway? Blurble 14:46, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Take it out. It's uncited, and all the references to the concept in Google are derived from Wikipedia. --John Nagle 23:38, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I concur. With no citation, and poorly articulated in any case, it should be removed for now. (...and this input is from one formally trained in both electrical engineering and in economics. I could not make sense of the resistor analogue.) N2e 16:20, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Here's more fuel for the fire: according to the formula, if you take two people, each having an IQ of 100, together they have an IQ of 50; if you take 100 such people, their collective IQ is 1 (one); if you take 1 billion, their collective IQ is 0.0000001. It would be understatement to say that this is an absurdity. The more I think about this, the clearer it becomes that this must be a cleverly placed, sarcastic joke. Neoprote 21:55, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I went digging through the page history. The paragraph in question was added by User:Ikhan85 on May 11, and he/she also added the statement

Typically most wild animals herd in order to benefit the group, for example, when a herd of zebra forms it increases the overall survivability of the group. In the case of most human beings, they herd with the intention of benefitting the group but the actual outcome is detremental to the group

which has since been modified. This represents a different and rather condescending interpretation of the phrase "herd behavior" than the one being discussed in the article.

Since every comment about this has been made with raised eyebrows, I am going to go ahead and delete these additions. If User:Ikhan85 or anyone else wants to disagree with this and/or put the material back, with acceptable citations, there is of course nothing to stop them. Neoprote 16:41, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Almost missed a bit there---User:Ikhan85 also added the comment about swarm intelligence. Upon consideration it seemed to be along the same lines as his/her other additions, so I got rid of it too. Neoprote 16:59, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Merge herding instinct here

I suggest (as did another user sometimes ago) to merge herding instinct here. Someone apparently believed that the fork was justified on behalf of an alleged difference between "herd behavior" and "herding instinct" which would include both "behavior" and "belief", but it is only splitting contents apart and evading a discussion. On what claims may herd behavior be said separate from "belief" (i.e. ideology)? These two should be split, and the discussion about the relation between belief & behavior addressed here. Santa Sangre 22:43, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I recommend not merging these articles as currently proposed. Merging two muddled articles would still leave a muddle.

However, I do believe there is a confusion present, rather heavy in Herd behavior article and while less so, still a bit in evidence in the the Herding instinct article. That confusion is related to some differences between herd behavior in general and human herding in particular. After the merge consensus process is complete (go/noGo), I would recommend a different course be followed; viz, rework both articles to separate the 'herd behavior' more generally seen in some higher-order animals from the specific-to-humans 'herd behavior/herding instinct' that is reflected in the sociology/economic/politicalScience literature, as well as in popular literature. Then, if necessary, we could retitle one of the two articles to "Herding Instinct (human) or Herd Behavior (human) or whatever we can reach consensus on. (Currently, the Herding instinct article deals more specifically with the human herding issue, and the herd bahavior article deals with the topic a bit more generally, and the differences between 'instinct' and 'behavior' just add to the confusion between what should be in each article.) What do you think? N2e 16:12, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Agreed that we need two articles, neither of which are the ones we have. We need one on real herd behavior of prey herbivores: sheep, cattle, and horses. Those animals have real herd behavior; it's extremely strong for sheep, less so for cattle, and not as dominant for horses. Then we need an article on human mass behavior; crowds, mobs, and politics. I have no opinion on names, but let's get that settled. Start the animal article with a picture of a flock of sheep; that will keep it on track. --John Nagle 18:18, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Seems a good idea to have a specific Human herding article which would reunite most of the texts in herd behavior and herding instinct. --Pgreenfinch 22:17, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay, now that the consensus seems to have arrived that we should have just one article on human herding, and now that I have learned that there is another WP article (herd} in addition to the Herd behavior and Herding instinct articles, I SUPPORT the MERGE of the Herd behavior and Herding instinct articles into a single article on human herding. I definitely think the one article should be renamed more explicitly, and not be left as either Herd behavior and Herding instinct. This is consistent with my comments (above) from late September, but is now explicit. N2e 01:40, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Just a note to close the discussion in this section. Herding Instinct was merged to Herd behavior by User:DSGruss on 2007-03-28. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by N2e (talk • contribs) 03:52, 27 April 2007 (UTC).

What should be the name of the (merged) article on human herd behavior?

Now that we appear to have a consensus on the merge of Herd behavior and Herding instinct into a single article on human herding, what ought we name the new (combined) merged article? Here are some ideas I see in the various talk posts on all three related articles:

• Herding Instinct (human)
• Herd Behavior (human)
• Human mass behavior
• Herd behavior (social psychology)
• Herd (human)
• Herding tendency (human)

Please add your own ideas, and let your opinion(s) be known. N2e 03:03, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

"Herd Behavior (human)" strikes me as a good choice for the article name, as it describes what humans do instead of why they do it. The "why" can include multiple theories (nature/nurture, etc.), and it's probably not a good idea to implicitly endorse any one of them in the title itself...

Rgfolsom 18:45, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with "Herd Behavior (human)" as the clearest title, as the most immediately understandable one. And I don't think it is pejorative, it is a social psychology concept that is widely used. By the way, it is not the only animal-like human trait we have. Didn't Aristotle called us social animals? Of course, we are not just that, Aristotle had a tendency to oversimplify, for example that guy stated that things were either 100% true or 100% false, which was the source of many dogmatisms. But we have to admit that we have some animal traits, even if the percentage is an open question. --Pgreenfinch 22:27, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Also see the article Group behavior and Group dynamics etc. Humans from groups not herds. To use the term herd to describe a group of humans carries a pejorative meaning. Few people would admit that they are part of a herd and if they accuse others of being so, it carries connotations of smug superiority by the accuser. I think articles about herds should stick to animal behavior in herds not humans. I think articles about humans should use neutral names like "group behavior" so that the article can have a balanced WP:NPOV. --Philip Baird Shearer 17:13, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

See also Crowd psychology, Collective behavior, Collective hysteria, Collective Effervescence, Mass action (sociology), Group action (sociology), Crowd psychology, Carnival, Riot, Mob, Hooliganism etc --Philip Baird Shearer 17:27, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Just a comment on the total elimination of the word 'herd' from any new merged article title, as suggested by Philip Baird Shearer above. As an encyclopedia, WP probably needs to discuss some topics in whatever terms of language that are "out there," even if the word 'herd' is pejoritive to some individuals. In this case the term herd is definitely used rather regularly in the social science literature with respect to some types of human behavior, so my preference would be to see it used somehow in the title of the merged article. Having said that, I'm definitely waiting to see what sort of a consensus forms here for what name we ought to give to the merger of these two particular human-herd-related articles. And a big thank you to Philip Baird Shearer for providing a large number of "See also" articles that someone might want to add to whatever merged article we come up with. N2e 21:16, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I am not suggesting that all reference to it should be airbrushed from Wikipedia, just that mention of it in the herd articles should be used to present a short paragraph on the subject and a redirect to an article page which has a more neutral title. Articles on herd behaviour etc., should concentrate on the behaviour of real herds, which is a fascinating subject in its own right. --Philip Baird Shearer 21:53, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Ho-hum. Something like "Mass action and mentality in humans" would be most neutral, I would have thought. Just an idea.

James F. (talk) 19:28, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

New article in The Economist

There is a new and interesting article in the latest issue of The Economist (pp 90, November 11th-17th, 2006, Vol. 381, No. 8503). I am summarizing it here rather than put it in the main article since the merge/rename discussion is still ongoing. If someone wants to put it in the article in the future, have at it. N2e 01:06, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

The Use of the tendency to herd in Marketing

In an article entititled "Swarming the shelves: How shops can exploit people's herd mentality to increase sales," The Economist reports on the happenings at a recent conference in Rome on the subject of the simulation of adaptive human behavior. Mechanisms to increase impulse buying and get people "to buy more by playing on the herd instinct" were shared. The basic idea is that people will buy more of products that are seen to be popular, and several feedback mechanisms to get product popularity information to consumers are mentioned, including smart-cart technology and the use of Radio Frequency Identification Tag technology. A "swarm-moves" model was introduced by a Princeton researcher, which is appealing to supermarkets because it can "increase sales without the need to give people discounts." Large retailers Wal-Mart in the United States and Tesco in Britain plan to test the technology in spring 2007.

Other recent studies on the "power of social influence" include an "artificial music market in which some 14,000 people downloaded previously unknown songs" (Columbia University, New York); a Japanese chain of convenience stores which orders its products based on "sales data from department stores and research companies;" a [[Massachusetts company exploiting knowledge of social networking to improve sales; and online retailers who are increasingly informing consumers about "which products are popular with like-minded consumers" (e.g., Amazon). N2e 01:06, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

References and Sources

Regarding the recent unsourced tag added to this article. That is correct, the article needs a lot more sourcing.

Having said that, I recalled having previously seen some references, so went looking. I found that three references that had previously been cited in the Herding Instinct article, which was merged into Herd Behavior earlier this month, got lost in the merge. So I have added them back in. N2e 03:45, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I trust that I've added enough sources to remove the tag from the page, and made broad edits for brevity/readability. Rgfolsom 17:39, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

The article is much improved. Much more encyclopedic writing, and much better referenced now. Good work. And the removal of the tag was warranted. N2e 22:03, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Nietzsche and This Page

Okay, so Nietzsche's page links his notable idea of the Herd Mentality to this page through a redirection, even though this page does not even contain the word Nietzsche. Interesting. 68.179.183.188 (talk) 03:49, 22 December 2007 (UTC)