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== "Audience Says"? ==
[[MOS:TVAUDIENCE]] says "Do not include user ratings submitted to websites such as the Internet Movie Database, Metacritic, or Rotten Tomatoes (including its "Audience Says" feature), as they are vulnerable to vote stacking and demographic skew." [[MOS:FILMAUDIENCE]] says approximately the same. I didn't actually find anything called "Audience Says" on Rotten Tomatoes. Is that referring to what Rotten Tomatoes now calls its "Popcornmeter", or is that referring to something else, such as individual comments submitted by members of the public? — [[User:BarrelProof|BarrelProof]] ([[User talk:BarrelProof|talk]]) 20:16, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
:[https://editorial.rottentomatoes.com/article/weve-updated-our-score-boxes/ Here]: {{tq|"Audience Says" is a short blurb that summarizes what fans think of a movie, drawing on common points made in user reviews written for the title}} [[User:Gonnym|Gonnym]] ([[User talk:Gonnym|talk]]) 20:20, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
::OK, but are they still using that feature? That links to a blog entry from more than 3 years ago, and I don't see such blurbs for the well-known movies I checked on the site. Is it acceptable to use averaged audience scores such as the Rotten Tomatoes "Popcornmeter" or the Metacritic "User Score"? — [[User:BarrelProof|BarrelProof]] ([[User talk:BarrelProof|talk]]) 20:31, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
:Copying my comment from your talk page. Generally, I don't like to include the user-generated scores from anywhere - IMDB, Metacritic, RottenTomatoes in part because they are largely fed by either fans or haters of shows and are easily manipulated. If the only source for a user generated rating is IMDB/Metacritic/RT, I would 100% leave it out. If a secondary sources calls out the score and highlights something unusual about it, that's worth a second glance to see if it should be included with the full context - show XYZ was review-bombed and the user rating on DEF went from 9.5 to 2.3 in a month. That's notable and worth mentioning. '''[[User talk:Ravensfire|<span style="color: darkred;">Ravensfire</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Ravensfire|talk]]) 20:36, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
::I think having this discussion is good just to get some definition here and use that to update the MOS. '''[[User talk:Ravensfire|<span style="color: darkred;">Ravensfire</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Ravensfire|talk]]) 20:37, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
:If the "Audience Says" aspect of RT has been retired, then I see no issues with removing that parenthetical. Really, I try to avoid the use of parentheticals in general. I'm assuming that was originally added to the guideline because there were issues with editors adding that specifically. [[User:Doniago|DonIago]] ([[User talk:Doniago|talk]]) 12:48, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
::It was presumably useful information at the time it was added. What would be useful now is to clarify whether the Rotten Tomatoes "Popcornmeter" and the Metacritic "User Score" are acceptable. I suggest they are not, and that the MOS should be clarified to say this. In fact I just discovered someone already added a mention of the Popcornmeter. I expanded it to also mention the Metacritic "User Score". — [[User:BarrelProof|BarrelProof]] ([[User talk:BarrelProof|talk]]) 14:59, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
I appreciate that you are refreshing the documentation and adding clarification[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Film&diff=prev&oldid=1244184295] that you feel is necessary but it seems redundant to me. I would suggest instead (or in addition) to point up to the higher level guidelines and principles of [[WP:UGC]] or [[WP:RS]] because audience scores are fundamentally unreliable and that is why they not allowed. -- [[Special:Contributions/109.79.167.27|109.79.167.27]] ([[User talk:109.79.167.27|talk]]) 21:14, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
:Thanks for those links. In my opinion, the statement at [[WP:UGC]] was not very clear about reported averages. I just added a [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources&diff=prev&oldid=1244236857 clarification there]. Which specific sentence(s) at [[WP:RS]] would apply to this type of polling result? — [[User:BarrelProof|BarrelProof]] ([[User talk:BarrelProof|talk]]) 21:25, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
:: As I noted on your Talk page the point is not about any specific mechanism for expressing user scores, the point is that such user voted or crowdsourced information is not the Wikipedia kind of reliable and should not be used. I didn't decide the consensus I've just seen these same discussions before. I'm not claiming the documentation is well written or clear enough.
:: It might be helpful to note that as with every rule in Wikipedia there are always exceptions. Occasionally reliable [[WP:SECONDARY]] sources (e.g. Variety magazine) point out there has been a big discrepancy between audiences and critics then occasionally editors will use that source to mention that there has been a divergence of opinion, but even then it isn't about the score (or average rating) specifically but it is about the audience response in general. e.g. [[The_Acolyte_(TV_series)#Audience_response]] -- [[Special:Contributions/109.79.167.27|109.79.167.27]] ([[User talk:109.79.167.27|talk]]) 21:52, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
== Discussion at Talk:The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power ==
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