Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 35: Difference between revisions
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(out) Simplified works (biographies written for children) may well not be RS - the concept of RS is that material must be a secondary source -- that is, it must have a source itself, and which validates the claims. Once a book has one "fiction" in it, it ceases to be reliable, and, in this case, since no apparent source cited in the book backs the claim, it must be regarded as unsourced. [[User:Collect|Collect]] ([[User talk:Collect|talk]]) 13:00, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
:I agree with you that the claim here is unsourced -- because the book has apparently altered the meaning of the original sources listed in its bibliography, as demonstrated by Hans. The point I was making is that one should not assume a book is unreliable only because it is written in simplified English. <span style="font-family: tahoma;"> — [[User:CactusWriter|<span style="color:#008000">Cactus</span><span style="color:#CC5500">Writer |</span>]] [[User_talk:CactusWriter|<span style="color:#008000"><sup>needles</sup></span>]]</span> 21:46, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
::The claim that Hubbard sought psychiatric help can be independently verified by a Globe and Mail article, which references the original court evidence where Hubbard's letter surfaced. See '''{{cite news|author=John Marshall|work=The Globe and Mail|date=26 January 1980|page=4|title=Cult founder avoids press, most followers but court files shed light on a tangled past|publisher=Bell Globemedia Publishing Inc.}}''': [http://www.xenu-directory.net/news/19800126-globeandmail.html ''"My last physician informed me it might be very helpful if I were to be examined and perhaps treated psychiatrically or even by a psychiatric analyst."'']. This letter is also referenced by Russell Miller's [[Bare-Faced Messiah]] in chapter 8, page 137. In addition, the letter is also referenced by Tom Voltz's ''[http://openlibrary.org/b/OL555377M/Scientology-und-%28k%29ein-Ende Scientology und (k)ein Ende]'', on [http://www.lermanet.com/cisar/germany/books/swoe07.htm page 63]. And finally, Stewart Lamont's [[Religion Inc.]] says on page 131: ''[http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/lamont/mind.htm In 1947 Hubbard applied for psychiatric treatment himself, a fact which may come as a surprise to those who see him as the scourge of psychiatry.]'' [[User_talk:Spidern|<
:::When you want to use the letter in this way based on Miller, you are committing a misquotation because Miller uses it not as illustration for any psychological problems of Hubbard but as illustration for his characterisation of him as a malingerer for monetary profit. As I said above, he agrees in this with Atack. Voltz doesn't explain the letter in this way, but uses it exclusively to prove that there were inconsistent versions about Hubbard's past. Only the Globe and Mail article is an entirely different matter and puts the same fact into a completely different light.
:::Finally, the balanced conclusion by Lamont seems to be very similar to what we should do here: "Whether or not the letter is a sick attempt to con the Veterans' Administration into upping his disability pension is not clear." But with so many sources discussing it, it probably belongs in the article. --[[User:Hans Adler|Hans Adler]] ([[User talk:Hans Adler|talk]]) 15:38, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
::::Well, I wasn't really commenting on how the information should be represented in the article, I mainly meant to illustrate that the subject is discussed in multiple sources. [[User_talk:Spidern|<
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