Commons:Deletion requests/Image:The Bochnia massacre German-occupied Poland 1939.jpg

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Image:The Bochnia massacre German-occupied Poland 1939.jpg

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no Polish author --Polarlys 11:56, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I see this photo in a collection but I can't post a link to that website because the spam filter here blocks posting that URL, here is more info 'The only information the donor gave was that he had found the album, which had belonged to a German, in an apartment in Sosnowiec in Silesia, after the end of the second world war' [1] Madmax32 12:22, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Except that the Guardian article appears to refer to a different image, namely the one shown at the top of that Guardian page, which wasn't taken at Bochnia. Interesting article, though.
I can find several similar images, some maybe even from that same execution.[2][3]. Some are also at http:// www. deathcamps. org /occupation/bochnia%20ghetto.html, (remove blanks, spam filter avoidance). As far as I can tell, the image must have been taken by a German soldier. I guess anybody else would have been included in the execution right away if he or she had dared to photograph there on that field. As an unpublished anonymous work (Ok, it was published at some point, but presumably without the consent of the photographer. That makes it technically an unpublished work. In fact, an unpublished anonymous work because whoever took that picture is unknown, and he most certainly won't step forward.) it would be copyrighted in Germany until the end of 2009 (70 years after the creation of the image).  Delete and re-upload again in three years, if someone then still feels the need to do so. Lupo 14:11, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
P.S.: you could just try posting the link to that collection as plain text, like I did above. Lupo 14:11, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The photo is on that same death camps website http:// deathcamps.org /occupation/pic/bigbochnia03.jpg - remove the two spaces Madmax32 23:27, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

According to the tag "polishpd" and the discussion Commons:Deletion requests/Template:PD-Polish it is considered a public domain, made before 1994. I found it in the polish book: Tadeusz Mazur, Jerzy Tomaszewski, Stanisław Wrzos-Glinka " Cierpienie i walka narodu polskiego, 1939-1945", Zarząd Główny Związku Bojowników o Wolność i Demokrację, Warszawa, 1958, page 19 There are following authors given, according to the description in the book: Stefan Bałuk, Władysław Choma, Tadeusz Kinowski, Stanisław Kopf, Bolesław Malmurowicz, Stefan Józef Stryjniak, Dawid Szmulewski, Jerzy Tomaszewski, Ludwik Wajner - it means that they probably made photos of the photos, because there are a lot of pictures in the book. This particuler picture was found by one of german anonymous soldiers who was killed, according to the description in the book. Spetsedisa 15:36, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thus it is indeed an unpublished anonymous German work, and thus {{Polishpd}} is not applicable outside of Poland. Lupo 19:40, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I doubt it, especially that this picture is a property either some of archives in Poland or the government, it is not German property. Anyway it is in Poland at the moment and It was published a lot of times since 1945 to 1994 without clear copyright notice. I may only speculate about an author, It might be polish photographer, or a German soldier or whoever - there is no proof that this picture was made by Germans, although it was found in album called "Suhne fur Bochnia" (punishment for Bochnia) held by one of nazi soldiers - the alleged German author is only supposition anyway. Spetsedisa 20:12, 19 June 2007

(UTC)

I checked who is the proprietor now, and it turned out that since the end of the second world war the only proprietor of this picture is polish Institute of National Remembrance[4][5], so it doesn`t matter who was an autor because we`re talking about holder of copyrights, and this is a polish institution. Also when it was published in my source that I provided from 1958, the Institute of National Rememberance was also a proprietor, so it`s clear that "polishpd" is valid (published before 1994 without copyright notice). No German soldier or SS member (if it really was made by one of them) would ever admit that is an author, because it is an obvious proof of nazi crime in Poland during German eccupation (1939-1945), and he would be immediately punish and taken to prison. Spetsedisa 21:28, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That doesn’t matter. We don’t use unfree photos because of the fact, that we consider the author a criminal and thus therefore deny his copyright or act on the assumption that this person will never enforce his rights because of his deeds. This project is for free content, not for content nobody will complain about. Whose copyright will we deny next? There are enough possibility left, there are millions of people who participated in any conflict worldwide. --Polarlys 07:36, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Please also see this picture uploaded by on of users [6] there is also no author specified, there is only the information about uploader. Take it to advance. Spetsedisa 21:56, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • It doesn't matter at all who owns a physical copy of the image, or even the negatives. Ownership of the physical object does not equal ownership of the copyright. The author did not transfer his copyrights or grant an exclusive license to the polish Institute of National Remembrance. Hence they don't own the copyright. It's an unpublished anonymous photograph made by a German and thus a German work. (See Berne Convention, §5(4)(c).) Its copyright status in Poland is thus utterly irrelevant for us because Poland is not the country of origin. Lupo 22:20, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I have a question that is not related to this image, but are you so sure ownership doesn't have anything to do with copyright? If you give your camera to passerby to take your photo does that mean they can claim copyright, I don't think it's legally tested nor correct to say only the person who takes the photograph owns the copyright, and yet I see people claiming that even for photos from someones own private photo album. Madmax32 23:21, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Replied on your talk page. Lupo 07:00, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • BTW, {{Polishpd}} is also inapplicable because the image was not "published", which implies the consent of the copyright holder. It may seem strange, but technically, this is an unpublished work. Lupo 07:00, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Some of the photos were found in different places owned by different German soldiers, I wonder if distribution of an album counts as publishing Madmax32 07:16, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Paul Brondner sounds like he was a police inspector of the Gestapo or SD? Madmax32 08:07, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It is written clearly there [8] that the album was confiscated or sequestered by allies, so anonymous author (we don`t know for sure who particularly made this pictures, although we suppose that the formar proprietor was some German officer) lost his rights to is when allies got it. Allies gave this document to polish Institute of National Remembrance, and this is also written there [9]. I repeat that since 1945 it is the property of Republic of Poland, and nobody will ever sue wikipedia because of publishing it at wikipedia commons an so on, the original author has no legal rights to this picture. It was published in Poland hundred of times since 1945, and never, ever any German author (if he was an author, which is not sure) sue polish institution or government to give this pictures back, because there no legal basis to do so. Spetsedisa 09:38, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree,  Keep -- Petri Krohn 13:55, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Keep Anyway, according to Berne Convention Berne Convention, §5 the law, which shall to apply in the case is the law of country of the first publication. It is an anonymous photo, first published in Poland , under Polish law, and no one from the day of publication till today put any copyright claims against publishers for sixty years from date of publication ( never disclosed his identity). From legal point of view it ist anonymous photo first published in Poland , under Polish copyright law - and it is binding conclusion, that the regulations of Polish law are applied to.

Andros64 07:18, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Publication" is only possible with the consent of the rights holder. Any other dissemination is not publication. Lupo 07:19, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

 Comment It is a strange definition in case of anonymous photo, where no "holder" disclosed his identitity for over sixty years, and in fact doesn't exist. This is a legal publication and noone opposed towards publishers for sixty years after the publication was first made. Do you know any legal representative of anonymous "holder", who put any claims to the publisher in past or today, or may do it in the future ? If you don't - it isn't a question to discuss about.

Andros64 07:33, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

* KeepSzumyk 09:23, 22 June 2007 (UTC) This is no voting. --Polarlys 12:19, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  •  Oppose to Lupo - Publication is publication and everything else is simply hair-splitting. The so-called problems between Polish copyright laws and the consent of the anonymous photographer is only relevant for these but not for us. Fact is: the Polish and the copyright laws of the USA permit both the publication. All further implications are for that reason IMHO still irrelevant - auctoritas, non veritas facit legem. --FSHL 17:02, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

kept Julo 07:38, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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